54 replies to this topic

[Abdul Qaim]

^^^

The excerpt you quoted clearly shows the author does not believe the 12th Imam existed and that the first safeer "and his associates succeeded in preventing this confused state of affairs from deteriorating further by advocating the doctrine of occultation (al-ghayba) of the Imam, viz., that the newly born child Imam, son of al-'Askari, had gone into hiding due to adverse political conditions and that he would emerge as soon as circumstances would allow him to do so." .

The notion that the 12th Imam was an invention of the Banu Nawbakht in order to perpetuate the Imami creed is one that has been postulated time and again, both by Sunni polemicists and Orientalists alike. It ignores evidence of ahadeeth that pre-date the 11th Imam re: the number of Imams being 12, and the occultation of the last of them (al-Qa'im bi 'l Haqq) .

It simply presupposes that there was, in fact, no son born to the 11th Imam, and then uses that presupposition as a basis for the thesis that the 4 sufara worked together to promulgate the idea of an Imam in ghayba who would appear when it was safe to do so in order to stop the Imami community from disintegrating upon finding out that there was no longer a living Imam to lead them .

jasir, on 12 July 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

So do you see the first safeer as the bab of his time? Just another name for the same position (safeer and bab)?

Yes, I do ...

[jasir]

Abdul Qaim, on 12 July 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

^^^

The excerpt you quoted clearly shows the author does not believe the 12th Imam existed and that the first safeer "and his associates succeeded in preventing this confused state of affairs from deteriorating further by advocating the doctrine of occultation (al-ghayba) of the Imam, viz., that the newly born child Imam, son of al-'Askari, had gone into hiding due to adverse political conditions and that he would emerge as soon as circumstances would allow him to do so." .

The notion that the 12th Imam was an invention of the Banu Nawbakht in order to perpetuate the Imami creed is one that has been postulated time and again, both by Sunni polemicists and Orientalists alike. It ignores evidence of ahadeeth that pre-date the 11th Imam re: the number of Imams being 12, and the occultation of the last of them (al-Qa'im bi 'l Haqq) .

It simply presupposes that there was, in fact, no son born to the 11th Imam, and then uses that presupposition as a basis for the thesis that the 4 sufara worked together to promulgate the idea of an Imam in ghayba who would appear when it was safe to do so in order to stop the Imami community from disintegrating upon finding out that there was no longer a living Imam to lead them .



Yes, I do ...

I actually opened up a new topic in the shia/sunni debate section as I would like to speak about this without diverting the thread away from its actual topic.

Please feel free to leave a comment and populate the thread a bit.

I do realise the author of the review has a critical viewpoint towards shia doctrine and does not beliefe in it himself.
I am not familiar with the "Banu Nawbakht".

Abdul Qaim, on 12 July 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Yes, I do ...

Neither you nor he can actually proof that their Bab is the true Bab through which a believer had to access the Imam.
I is just another sectarian split, it is a sad often repeated pattern.

A question to the Syrian brother: According to your belief who is the Bab for Imam 11,10 and 9 and what is your viewpoint on Uthman ibn Said al Amri?

[Abdul Qaim]

jasir, on 12 July 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

I am not familiar with the "Banu Nawbakht".

The Banu Nawbakht were an influential clan of Imamis which included a number of notable scholars with close ties to the later Imams. The 3rd safeer was from Banu Nawbakht.

jasir, on 12 July 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Neither you nor he can actually proof that their Bab is the true Bab through which a believer had to access the Imam.
I is just another sectarian split, it is a sad often repeated pattern.

Just like nobody can prove that Abu Bakr was the rightful successor of the Prophet. Try proving the Qur'an is God's word to an atheist. Your point is frankly ridiculous, since we are talking about matters of faith and not empirical science .

Besides which, if you read ahadeeth related to the 4 sufara, you will see the signs and methods by which the Imamiyya came to recognise them as Abwaab of the Imam ...

Edited by Abdul Qaim, 12 July 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[OneTruth]

Salam aleykum ve rahmat Allah,

I'm just registrated to this beautiful chatroom.
I am born as an alawite in southern turkey and I am raised in europe.

While grewing up in Europe I have never questioned my faith, but never the less I have always been interested in learning more about Islam.

In my investigation I always noticed that what is revealed to me by the leaders of our faith has never contradicted our holy book quran i kerim. It was only after reading topics online that I noticed that the arabic minority living in southern turkey were labeled as nusayri (never heard someone calling himself nusayri, people always considered themselves to be muslim).

My intension is to clear misundertandings about the faith of the arabic minority living in southern turkey (i do not intend to speak on behalve of all of us as each individual will have unique beliefs and interpretations). What rahter is important is what the people are thought to believe by our Shayks. The shayks have learned us islam as we can read in quran and they teach us the way of prophet mohammed saws and his offspring as.

One day i was reading online when i was confronted with the so called 'revealed secrects of the alawite sect' and to be honest, I was shocked!

I want to make clear that every alawite in southern turkey (with arab roots) is raised with quran only.
The 5 books we find online contradict with the beliefs of those people.

I am willing to answer every question to clear some misunderstandngs.

Please keep in mind that I have limited knowledge.

[OneTruth]

A good explanation in turkish