49 replies to this topic

[Ruwayd]

Is Allah going to hold someone responsible for believing in a religion for which He has not provided accessible and clear proofs and accessible and tangible evidence? I would say: of course not.

Say one was to look at this from a Prophethood instead of Imamat perspective:

Let's pretend my neighbor came to my door in the 6th century and told me he was a Prophet. I wouldn't believe him for a second without him presenting clear proof and tangible evidence - and I believe Allah expects this because Allah does not ask us (and may not even want us) to make leaps of faith, but, rather to sincerely and honestly ponder and question what we are presented with. Allah provides clear proofs and tangible evidence, as He has provided with Islam (primarily through the Qur'an). Many people sincerely and earnestly seeking truth today eventually accept Islam and accept Muhammad (SAWS) as a real Prophet - not an impostor - primarily thanks to the Qur'an. As we all know, it is not possible for a human to have authored the Qur'an.

How would a person prove himself to be an Imam - at least to enough of an extent that Allah would hold us responsible for believing in this person as an Imam?

Edited by Ruwayd, 29 June 2012 - 12:01 AM.

[Ugly Jinn]

Abdul Qaim, on 28 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

I'm sorry to tell you, but the Imams themselves almost never performed miracles in order to prove their imaamah, which is why even amongst the Shi'ah, there were a plethora of individuals who claimed the position for themselves, some of them quite successfully. What you are asking for is undeniable proof, which is something that has generally not been supplied by the Imams - at least not in the manner you expect it.

That's fine. Basically the 12ers and Ismaili's are in the same boat regarding proof (which includes all other religions).

Ruwayd, on 29 June 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

Let's pretend my neighbor came to my door in the 6th century and told me he was a Prophet. I wouldn't believe him for a second without him presenting clear proof and tangible evidence - and I believe Allah expects this because Allah does not ask us (and may not even want us) to make leaps of faith, but, rather to sincerely and honestly ponder and question what we are presented with. Allah provides clear proofs and tangible evidence, as He has provided with Islam (primarily through the Qur'an). Many people sincerely and earnestly seeking truth today eventually accept Islam and accept Muhammad (SAWS) as a real Prophet - not an impostor - primarily thanks to the Qur'an. As we all know, it is not possible for a human to have authored the Qur'an.

There are many textual evidences of Prophets executing miracles in public. I'm pretty sure the person knocking on your door claiming to be a Prophet later performing a miracle would be sufficient proof for you to believe. Right?

Quote

How would a person prove himself to be an Imam - at least to enough of an extent that Allah would hold us responsible for believing in this person as an Imam?

1. How would you believe in someone who claims to be a divine Imam, what's your criteria?
2. Why do you reject Agha Khan as a divine Imam?

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 29 June 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[Ruwayd]

Ugly Jinn, on 29 June 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

There are many textual evidences of Prophets executing miracles in public. I'm pretty sure the person knocking on your door claiming to be a Prophet later performing a miracle would be sufficient proof for you to believe. Right?

Well, we already know from history that miracles, including the revelation of the Qur'an (a miracle of Allah), drew many to accept Islam. The Qur'an continues to be perhaps the biggest force in attracting non-Muslims to Islam today, due to its miraculous nature.

Ugly Jinn, on 29 June 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

1. How would you believe in someone who claims to be a divine Imam, what's your criteria?

First of all, you keep saying divine Imam. The only entity I know of that is divine is Allah. Please bring evidence to show that Imams are in fact divine, if you want to keep insisting that they are. For example, do you have soundly transmitted (not weakly transmitted) hadiths going back to the Prophet (SAWS) or the Imams showing that the Imam is supposed to be understood as a divine entity?

Ugly Jinn, on 29 June 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

2. Why do you reject Agha Khan as a divine Imam?

Ugly Jinn, on 29 June 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

That's fine. Basically the 12ers and Ismaili's are in the same boat regarding proof (which includes all other religions).

Islam has a perfect book of guidance - one that is a living proof that God has communicated to man. No other religion has a perfect book of guidance today. For me, Islam is the only believable religion because it is the only religion with demonstrable proof of having come from Allah (i.e. the Qur'an) and not being man-made.

Unlike Twelvers and our brother Sunnis as well, Nizari Ismailis are missing a key ingredient of Islam that would properly link who they claim the Aga Khan to be to what the Qur'an is meant to communicate to mankind. What is this missing ingredient? Unlike Twelvers and Sunnis, Nizari Ismailis don't have a hadith system nor a grading system for hadiths (or at least not one that has survived to the present day or that was ever credible / rigorous) - and the concept of the Prophet's Sunnah is thus completely missing from their religion, as a result. In other words, Nizari Ismailis have no credible information of their own on how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted the Qur'an and how the Prophet (SAWS) implemented the Qur'an in his own life. Without this, how can Nizari Ismailis interpret the Qur'an at all, let alone even derive a concept like Imamat (for example). In fact, one can't even know what Islam is without documented, credible, and sound hadiths going back to the Prophet (SAWS). Unfortunately for Nizari Ismailis, both the authentic Sunnah that the Sunnis have compiled and the authentic Sunnah that the Twelvers have compiled completely contradict Nizari Ismailism - so, the Nizari Ismailis cannot look to the hadiths of the Sunnis nor the hadiths of the Twelvers to understand what happened during the Prophet's life and how the Prophet (SAWS) understood the Qur'an. This is a major hole in Nizari Ismailism, disregarding all the other problems Nizari Ismailism has (many of which are laid out in this thread, including by me) that make it look a lot like a Catholicism-like free-for-all cult with Aga Khan essentially playing the role of a living tithe-loving Jesus .

[Mut'ah]

is this the current leader of the ismaelis, or did i post something completely wrong?

[Ruwayd]

Yes, that is him, and the same man is here (Aga Khan IV - 49th and current Imam of the Nizari Ismailis):

[PIC removed - though it may be ok for Ismailis]

Edited by Haji 2003, 01 July 2012 - 11:52 AM.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

^Wow... No comment

[Ugly Jinn]

Ruwayd, on 29 June 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Well, we already know from history that miracles, including the revelation of the Qur'an (a miracle of Allah), drew many to accept Islam. The Qur'an continues to be perhaps the biggest force in attracting non-Muslims to Islam today, due to its miraculous nature.

Saying Quran is a miracle is subjective. It holds the same weight as a Hindu saying Geeta is a miracle.

Quote

First of all, you keep saying divine Imam. The only entity I know of that is divine is Allah. Please bring evidence to show that Imams are in fact divine, if you want to keep insisting that they are. For example, do you have soundly transmitted (not weakly transmitted) hadiths going back to the Prophet (SAWS) or the Imams showing that the Imam is supposed to be understood as a divine entity?

Divine Imam means nothing more than 'from God' or 'divinely appointed' (in layman's terms), that's all. It's a commonly used and there are no issues using that term in this context.

Quote

Islam has a perfect book of guidance - one that is a living proof that God has communicated to man. No other religion has a perfect book of guidance today. For me, Islam is the only believable religion because it is the only religion with demonstrable proof of having come from Allah (i.e. the Qur'an) and not being man-made.

Subjective.

Quote

Unlike Twelvers and our brother Sunnis as well, Nizari Ismailis are missing a key ingredient of Islam that would properly link who they claim the Aga Khan to be to what the Qur'an is meant to communicate to mankind. What is this missing ingredient? Unlike Twelvers and Sunnis, Nizari Ismailis don't have a hadith system nor a grading system for hadiths (or at least not one that has survived to the present day or that was ever credible / rigorous) - and the concept of the Prophet's Sunnah is thus completely missing from their religion, as a result. In other words, Nizari Ismailis have no credible information of their own on how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted the Qur'an and how the Prophet (SAWS) implemented the Qur'an in his own life. Without this, how can Nizari Ismailis interpret the Qur'an at all, let alone even derive a concept like Imamat (for example). In fact, one can't even know what Islam is without documented, credible, and sound hadiths going back to the Prophet (SAWS). Unfortunately for Nizari Ismailis, both the authentic Sunnah that the Sunnis have compiled and the authentic Sunnah that the Twelvers have compiled completely contradict Nizari Ismailism - so, the Nizari Ismailis cannot look to the hadiths of the Sunnis nor the hadiths of the Twelvers to understand what happened during the Prophet's life and how the Prophet (SAWS) understood the Qur'an. This is a major hole in Nizari Ismailism, disregarding all the other problems Nizari Ismailism has (many of which are laid out in this thread, including by me) that make it look a lot like a Catholicism-like free-for-all cult with Aga Khan essentially playing the role of a living tithe-loving Jesus .

Why would Ismailis need hadiths when they believe a divine Imam is present to guide them? Just like Twelvers won't need Hadiths if al-Mehdi comes out of occultation.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 01 July 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Ruwayd]

It's not subjective whatsoever, Ugly Jinn. By any metric, the Qur'an is far superior to any book in the world, and no human being or group of human beings could produce something comparable to it today - let alone 1400 years ago. If you feel that there are any books that even remotely approach the Qur'an in terms of magnificence, then obviously you're either misguided or need to do more research (whilst sincerely seeking guidance from Allah).

Hadiths are needed to know how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted and implemented the Qur'an, including if he believed in the concept of Imamat and how this concept is to be understood. I think I made that pretty clear above but you choose to ignore what I'm saying. Without the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS), many Islamic concepts could not be derived and practicing Islam in the way the Prophet (SAWS) intended wouldn't be possible.

Ugly Jinn, it's becoming pretty clear to me that you've got either got an agenda here of making Islam look as inferior as other religions, or of making traditional Islam (as practiced Sunnis and Twelvers) comparable to the Dajjal-led religion of the Nizari Ismailis. Your responses in this thread fail to address any of the points that are being made to you. You also claim Imams are divine beings without any proof supporting you, despite being asked for proof repeatedly.

Is it a waste of time responding to your posts? It sure feels like it. I have no idea what your religion is but I'm guessing you're either a Nizari Ismaili or a non-Muslim that is here to cause trouble.

[Mut'ah]

Ruwayd, on 01 July 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

Yes, that is him, and the same man is here (Aga Khan IV - 49th and current Imam of the Nizari Ismailis):

[PIC removed - though it may be ok for Ismailis]

woww! it's actually pretty sad to be honest. a divinely appointed leader that has 800 million, an expensive yacht with a naked girl in it, dresses like a capitalist and he doesn't even have a beard... is there any website where he gives fatawa, a vid where he prays or recites quran, giving a lecture etc. just anything Islamic about him?

i'd like to see that dear ismaelis, because this is a very disturbing case indeed.
(heck, and i thought there couldn't be stupider people than wahabies)

[Kismet110]

^^^

This is their ..... Imam?!? They hold this playboy in the same esteem as (mazhallah) Maula Ali ?

Quite disturbing. Looks aren't everything of course but just by looking at the circles he mixes in you can quickly work out which side HIS bread is buttered.

Gullibles and fake Prophets (or Imams in this case) - made for each other.

ALI

[macisaac]

You should see the guy they had before him.. The previous Agha Khan was actually this one's grandfather, they skipped over his socialite playboy father Aly Khan.  Anyhow, here's the one prior:







Yes, that's who they claim was the mazhar of Allah, and to have been the Imam on Earth like Amir al-Mu'mineen , the Hasanayn , Imam Zayn al-`Abideen , Imam Baqir and Imam Sadiq .

[Ali_Hussain]

What is the relationship like between the different branches of isma'ilism? Are they quite tolerant of each other, or view each other as quite misguided?

[macisaac]

Ali_Hussain, on 02 July 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

What is the relationship like between the different branches of isma'ilism? Are they quite tolerant of each other, or view each other as quite misguided?

From what I've seen, they are hostile to one another, with the Musta`li (Bohras) looking at the Nizaris (Agha Khani) much in a similar way as we would (the Musta`lis still believe in the obligation of salat, fasting, and so on, and are closer to what would have been the Isma`ilism of the Fatimids while the Nizaris are essentially so far gone as to be a separate religion)

[Ruwayd]

Nizari Ismailis do hold the Aga Khan IV in the same (or higher) esteem as Hazrat Ali . In fact, from the Nizari Ismaili point of view, the Aga Khan IV and Hazrat Ali are exactly the same people - the only difference is the physical body that we see. From a Nizari Ismaili perspective, the Aga Khan IV is considered the holder of a concept called the "Noor of Allah" and Nizari Ismailis supplicate to him and pray to him for many things instead of supplicating and praying to Allah alone. For example, each day in the jamatkhanas, Nizari Ismailis congregate and make du'aa to the Aga Khan for many different things (even though the Aga Khan cannot hear these prayers or respond to them, as he is usually inside one of his many mansions around the world). Here's an example of one the many prayers that is recited daily in the jamatkhanas, by Nizari Ismailis, in congregation, while the Aga Khan is sitting inside one of his many mansions and couldn't possibly hear what his Nizari Ismailis are asking him for:

Ya Ali, Ya Hazar Imam, With Thy Mercy and Divine Grace, glorify our akubat (eternal life), akhirat (the Day ofJudgement), and chhelo dam (the last moments of our lives). [This is recited by the "Mukhi Saheb" or chief male priest, and then the congregation says "Ameen"...notice that there is no mention of Allah]

--

Of the many Nizari Ismailis I know, every single one of them has no problem with allowing their children to date the same or opposite sex for long periods of time from the time of puberty. Many Nizari Ismailis also believe in having sex before marriage.

In fact, many Hindus and Sikhs young men tell me that Nizari Ismaili girls, in particular, are very, very "easy" to get in bed and have sex with, compared to other non-white girls. This lax attitude in free mixing between men and women or men and men or women and women that Nizari Ismailism allows, comes directly from the Aga Khan who is fully Westernized and keeps girlfriends of his own. Both of his marriages have failed due to him committing adultery, as I showed here. This is the example he has set for his community.

Nizari Ismailis have no problem with free mixing even inside their jamatkhanas. After worship services are complete, Nizari Ismaili young men and women frequently free mix with each other in the "Social Hall" area of the jamatkhana, sometimes including hugging and kissing right in front of other Nizari Ismailis. No one has any problem with it among the Nizari Ismailis and no one complains, thanks to the totally free-for-all Westernized policies of the Aga Khan. Some Nizari Ismailis are homosexual or lesbian or bisexual or transsexual or otherwise queer, and they are all welcome in the Jamat and totally accepted by the Aga Khan. In summary, Nizari Ismailis are as open and free to indulge in free mixing, dating and sex as any modern-day Atheists are, whether with the same or opposite sex - all thanks to the extremely liberal policies of the Aga Khan, who doesn't believe in Shariah and is a Secularist.

--

For those wondering about the picture of Aga Khan standing with his girlfriend (Rose de Witchestein) who was wearing a yellow bikini, aboard a yacht in Costa Smeralda (Northern Sardinia) where the Aga Khan keeps one of dozens of mansions he owns, it comes from an article from the Spain version of the famous HELLO! Magazine.

I'm not sure if the mods here will allow me to link to the article in question, but, you can find it yourself at Hola.com or by searching "Rose de Witchestein" in Google. Be aware that the picture contains a quite attractive and very young woman (girlfriend of the Aga Khan) wearing a yellow bikini, standing beside the Aga Khan aboard his yacht. It is a very inappropriate picture for a male Muslim to be viewing, from an Islamic perspective. You have been warned!

--

macisaac, on 02 July 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

From what I've seen, they are hostile to one another, with the Musta`li (Bohras) looking at the Nizaris (Agha Khani) much in a similar way as we would (the Musta`lis still believe in the obligation of salat, fasting, and so on, and are closer to what would have been the Isma`ilism of the Fatimids while the Nizaris are essentially so far gone as to be a separate religion)

Yes, they're quite hostile to each other from what I've seen as well. They're very different from each other. Both were once similar nearly a thousand years ago, but since the advent of the Aga Khan III, Nizari Ismailis believe in Secularism whereas Bohras continue to believe in the Shariah and following the Sunnah (like Nizari Ismailis once did, but, no longer do).

Nizari Ismailis don't practice any elements of the Shariah or the teachings of the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS). Their women don't wear veils, all of them date and free mix with the opposite sex, they don't eat halal meat, they don't do Namaz or fast in Ramadhan or do Hajj, and there are virtually no rules in Nizari Ismailism (eg. Nizari Ismaili women can marry non-Muslim men, wear scant clothing in public, etc.). Nizari Ismailism is almost exactly like a Catholicism-based free-for-all where the religion allows you to do anything so long as you accept the Aga Khan as your saviour (in much the same way that Catholicism allows one to do anything so long as one accepts Jesus - AS - as their saviour).

Bohras, on the other hand, try to practice Islamic law and the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS). Unlike Nizari Ismailis, all Bohras believe in Namaz, fasting in Ramadhan, and Hajj. They accept all of the 5 pillars of Islam and practice them very similarly to Sunnis and Twelvers, in other words.

Edited by Ruwayd, 02 July 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[MysticKnight]

Weren't women slaves dressed "inappropriately"?

[Ugly Jinn]

Ruwayd, on 01 July 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

It's not subjective whatsoever, Ugly Jinn. By any metric, the Qur'an is far superior to any book in the world, and no human being or group of human beings could produce something comparable to it today - let alone 1400 years ago. If you feel that there are any books that even remotely approach the Qur'an in terms of magnificence, then obviously you're either misguided or need to do more research (whilst sincerely seeking guidance from Allah).

The above is subjective, hence 7 billion humans reject the Quran.

Just like a Hindu states, "By any metric, the Bhagavad Gita is far superior to any book in the world, and no human being or group of human beings could produce something comparable to it today - let alone 5000 years ago. If you feel that there are any books that even remotely approach the Bhagavad Gita in terms of magnificence, then obviously you're either misguided or need to do more research (whilst sincerely seeking guidance from God)."

I'm looking for a objective discussion.

Quote

Hadiths are needed to know how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted and implemented the Qur'an, including if he believed in the concept of Imamat and how this concept is to be understood. I think I made that pretty clear above but you choose to ignore what I'm saying. Without the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS), many Islamic concepts could not be derived and practicing Islam in the way the Prophet (SAWS) intended wouldn't be possible.

Hadiths are not needed if there is a divine agent physically present to guide. The sunnah will come from the divine agent directly, this is the belief of Twelvers also, hence you might want to re-check with your own beliefs.

Quote

Ugly Jinn, it's becoming pretty clear to me that you've got either got an agenda here of making Islam look as inferior as other religions, or of making traditional Islam (as practiced Sunnis and Twelvers) comparable to the Dajjal-led religion of the Nizari Ismailis. Your responses in this thread fail to address any of the points that are being made to you. You also claim Imams are divine beings without any proof supporting you, despite being asked for proof repeatedly.

Is it a waste of time responding to your posts? It sure feels like it. I have no idea what your religion is but I'm guessing you're either a Nizari Ismaili or a non-Muslim that is here to cause trouble.

You basically have made bias subjective remarks, I don't want to get involved in that. You still didn't answer simple questions like how would you verify if a person claims to be an Imam. If you have something objective to say then it'll be productive, otherwise it'll be a waste.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 02 July 2012 - 03:14 PM.

[Abu 3antar]

What is the Aga Khan's stance on Palestine and Israel? How does his general political view look like?

[Mut'ah]

Ruwayd, on 02 July 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Of the many Nizari Ismailis I know, every single one of them has no problem with allowing their children to date the same or opposite sex for long periods of time from the time of puberty. Many Nizari Ismailis also believe in having sex before marriage.

In summary, Nizari Ismailis are as open and free to indulge in free mixing, dating and sex as any modern-day Atheists are, whether with the same or opposite sex - all thanks to the extremely liberal policies of the Aga Khan, who doesn't believe in Shariah and is a Secularist.

this sect is cursed and may it die out.
W/s

[Abu 3antar]

Mut, on 02 July 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

this sect is cursed and may it die out.
W/s

They have a corrupted leader, the religion itself doesn't represent the actions of Aga Khan if he's rejecting the laws of his own religion (Shariah).

[Ruwayd]

Ugly Jinn, on 02 July 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

The above is subjective, hence 7 billion humans reject the Quran.

You have no reasoning for your conclusion. You cannot even state one premise to support your argument that 7 billion humans reject the Qur'an. There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world today. Of those human beings who are not Muslim, most do not know that much about Islam and have not been sufficiently educated as to its divine origin. As to those who choose to reject Islam despite being sufficiently educated as to its divine origin, they are misguided and are purposely left blind to the truth for now.

Ugly Jinn, on 02 July 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

Just like a Hindu states, "By any metric, the Bhagavad Gita is far superior to any book in the world, and no human being or group of human beings could produce something comparable to it today - let alone 5000 years ago. If you feel that there are any books that even remotely approach the Bhagavad Gita in terms of magnificence, then obviously you're either misguided or need to do more research (whilst sincerely seeking guidance from God)."

I don't think you came here except to spread Atheism, given the attitude you're displaying on this forum. But, you're nevertheless free to post what errors you see in the Qur'an and let Muslims here try to answer them. Muslims believe the Qur'an is flawless whereas the errors in all other religious books are both documented and numerous, including the Bhagavad Gita.

Bring us any proof whatsoever that you think you have of the Qur'an not being perfect and we will show you how your proof is nothing more than a misguided and false concoction.

Ugly Jinn, on 02 July 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

Hadiths are not needed if there is a divine agent physically present to guide.

There is no such thing as an agent who is divine in Islam. The Prophet (SAWS) never claimed divinity and nor did he associate Imams with divinity. You're trying to create misunderstandings, as would be expected of an Atheist who comes here with bad intentions.

If you're talking about the concept of Imamat, then Imams have always been considered human beings, and the concept of Imamat is derived from the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS) and how the Prophet (SAWS) understood this concept from the Qur'an. A person does not just come up with the concept of Imamat on his/her own or from his/her own reading of the Qur'an, as one person's reading of the Qur'an means nothing to another person. The only interpretation of the Qur'an that matters is that of the Prophet (SAWS). Imamat is only a legitimate Islamic concept in the way it is understood today if it matches up with exactly how the Prophet (SAWS) understood it. Without hadiths, the concept of Imamat cannot be derived as there would be no way to know: (a) whether the Prophet (SAWS) believed in Imamat; and (b ) if he did, how did he precisely interpret this concept.

Imamat is in addition to the hadiths of the Prophet (SAWS), not a replacement for them. Practices of Islam are defined and set by the Prophet's interpretation of the Qur'an, and cannot be instituted, changed, or removed by an Imam. The Imam's job is to preserve and continue the practices of the Prophet (SAWS) - and not to institute his own, change or remove them.

Ugly Jinn, on 02 July 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

You basically have made bias subjective remarks, I don't want to get involved in that. You still didn't answer simple questions like how would you verify if a person claims to be an Imam. If you have something objective to say then it'll be productive, otherwise it'll be a waste.

What a loaded paragraph. How to verify if a person claims to be an Imam is a question I raised and not one that you raised. I also clearly mentioned to you why the Aga Khan would be disqualified from such a discussion, with no response from you. Why am I wasting my time responding to someone who keeps ignoring me?

Name even one thing you've said in this thread you've been able to back up. Your claims include the following, all of which you've failed to provide ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER FOR:
1. The Qur'an is not superior to all other books.
2. Islam is no better than any other religion.
3. Imams are divine beings and not human beings.

Your username, "Ugly Jinn," sounds like the username of an Atheist. I can't imagine a Muslim or any person respectful of religion keeping a username such as yours. Please tell us what your beliefs are before you continue your rude and insulting behavior on this forum.

You keep ignoring what I write and never respond to my arguments, even though I respond to all of yours and backup what I say.

Edited by Ruwayd, 02 July 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[Ugly Jinn]

Ruwayd, on 02 July 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

You have no reasoning for your conclusion. You cannot even state one premise to support your argument that 7 billion humans reject the Qur'an. There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world today. Of those human beings who are not Muslim, most do not know that much about Islam and have not been sufficiently educated as to its divine origin. As to those who choose to reject Islam despite being sufficiently educated as to its divine origin, they are misguided and are purposely left blind to the truth for now.

This is getting off-topic. Saying Quran is a miracle is a subjective belief, there is no way around it.

There is nothing objective you can put forward to show it's a miracle.

Quote

I don't think you came here except to spread Atheism, given the attitude you're displaying on this forum. But, you're nevertheless free to post what errors you see in the Qur'an and let Muslims here try to answer them. Muslims believe the Qur'an is flawless whereas the errors in all other religious books are both documented and numerous, including the Bhagavad Gita.

And you are here to propagate your agenda. This is an Ismaili thread.

Quote

There is no such thing as an agent who is divine in Islam. The Prophet (SAWS) never claimed divinity and nor did he associate Imams with divinity. You're trying to create misunderstandings, as would be expected of an Atheist who comes here with bad intentions.

*sigh*

"Each of the divine prophets guided mankind on the path to human perfection, knowledge, morality and justice."
http://www.leader.ir...bayanat&id=3467

"Imamate feeling the subtle touch of prophethood, Ali opened his eyes and saluted the Divine Prophet: "Asalamu alayka ya Rasula'llah" (Peace be on you, O Messenger of Allah)."
http://www.al-islam....fallibles/8.htm

"Messenger: See nabiy (Divine Prophet) and rasul (Divine Apostle)."
http://www.al-islam....us_quran/17.htm

"This is how the divine Prophet delivered his ultimatum on the day of Ghadir,"
http://www.al-islam....ndshahadat.html

"‘Isa replied that it was through his knowledge as a divine Prophet that he called for it but its taste was unpalatable and like any normal child he showed his dislike for it."
http://www.al-islam....-majlisi/29.htm

"By religion is meant the divine religions i.e. the collective teaching which the Divine Prophet have presented on half of Almighty God to the people for their guidance like the religion of Islam, religion of Jews and Christians."
"On the other hand, the inclination towards the divine Prophets and the Ma'refat of God is mooted not as one rational affair and that too unknown and uncertain,"
"On this basis, the divine Prophets put into operation the innate Ma'refat through elegant methods."
http://www.al-islam....ntals-god/2.htm

I can get more references but this should do.

Quote

What a loaded paragraph. How to verify if a person claims to be an Imam is a question I raised and not one that you raised. I also clearly mentioned to you why the Aga Khan would be disqualified from such a discussion, with no response from you. Why am I wasting my time responding to someone who keeps ignoring me?

Name even one thing you've said in this thread you've been able to back up. Your claims include the following, all of which you've failed to provide ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER FOR:
1. The Qur'an is not superior to all other books.
2. Islam is no better than any other religion.
3. Imams are divine beings and not human beings.

1. Subjective and nothing to do with the thread. You keep forcing your agenda on an Ismaili thread.
2. Subjective and nothing to do with the thread. You keep forcing your agenda on an Ismaili thread.
3. Email Khamenei and al-islam.org and tell them to stop using the word 'divine' with Prophet/Imam. And email other marjas because they use it also.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 03 July 2012 - 12:37 AM.

[Ruwayd]

Ugly,

What is meant there is "divinely appointed" and not simply "divine." The Qur'an and the authentic Sunnah repeatedly assert that only Allah is divine and that the rest is His creation.You'll be hard-pressed to find a knowledgeable Muslim who believes that Muhammad (SAWS) or Ali (or any Prophets or Imams) weren't human beings (yes, ultra exceptional human beings, but, human beings nonetheless). Due to your lack of knowledge in these matters, you've been misled into believing everything you read online. The concept most emphasized in the Qur'an and most emphasized by the Prophet (SAWS) was Tawheed or the oneness of God and the fact that He alone must be worshiped. It is blasphemous in Islam to describe any human being or entity as having any likeness with Allah or to be worshiped alongside Allah - a concept that would be evidently clear to you if you had ever read even a small portion of the Qur'an in your life. One entity is the Creator and the other is His Creation, and the latter cannot share traits or resemblances to the former. Creation is inherently imperfect and limited in ability; while the Creator is perfect, and unlimited in ability. They are completely different from each other, and only one of them is divine - the Creator.

Some of the things you see online and written about Islam are translated incorrectly from Arabic or Persian books, or are written by folks with poor knowledge of the English language. If you wanted to make a real case for Imams being divine, you'd bring some authentic hadiths of the Prophet (SAWS) or the Imams to show that Imams are indeed divine and not merely human beings. But, you will not be able to do that - not only because it's not possible (since authentic hadiths  emphasize the humanity of Prophets and Imams - showing them to be nothing more than exceptional human beings), but, also because you obviously lack knowledge about even the basics of hadiths. A simple glance at the all-too-popular Nahjul Bhalagha would show you that Imam Ali always considered himself a human being and nothing more than that.

You continue to make it obvious that you know nothing about Islam - as is the case with most Atheists like yourself. You're obviously here to diminish the value of Islam in the hearts and minds of those who wholeheartedly accept it, and to preach the religion of Atheism by making Islam look as inferior as Christianity or Judaism. Unfortunately for you, Islam is vastly superior to these religions as well as any other religions out there, including Agnosticism and Atheism (which are as much religions as Hinduism and Wicca). May Allah make you suffer a disgrace in this venture of yours, may He make clear to you the falsehood of Atheism and the superiority and truth of Islam, and may He soften your heart and guide you to Islam before your coming and certain death.

To learn more about the Qur'an and why it must be of divine origin, here's a good intro.

Adios, Ugly!

Edited by Ruwayd, 03 July 2012 - 03:27 AM.

[Ruwayd]

Jaber, on 02 July 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

What is the Aga Khan's stance on Palestine and Israel? How does his general political view look like?

He views the Muslim-Jew conflict over Palestine to be a purely political conflict and not a religious conflict. He has mentioned this in an interview I read once.

His political ideology is Secular Pluralism. His view of the perfect country is Canada - a secular democracy that embraces Pluralism and Multiculturalism in all its forms, including when it comes to religion, sexuality, etc. The Aga Khan absolutely loves Canada and - due to the Aga Khan's political views, Secularist ideals, and lack of overt religiosity despite apparently occupying the position of a Shia Imam - the Canadian government absolutely loves him, as well.

The Aga Khan doesn't care for the Shariah or the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS), and views these as outdated and irrelevant in today's modern world. He believes that all countries and peoples should embrace Secular Pluralism, and he is pushing this political ideology wherever he can (in fact he was just given Canada's highest award for this very reason). Non-Muslims love him because they would much prefer to see Secular Pluralism dominate the Muslim world rather than the Shariah, and the Aga Khan is fighting hard for them in this respect.

Edited by Ruwayd, 03 July 2012 - 03:53 AM.

[Kismet110]

A BIG lana'at on this fake 'Imam' based on what I've seen and read above. What type of weirdos think this is close to the status of Ahlebayt ?

ALI

[Ugly Jinn]

@Ruwayd - You need to read carefully next time.

Ruwayd, on 03 July 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

What is meant there is "divinely appointed" and not simply "divine."

Ugly Jinn, on 01 July 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Divine Imam means nothing more than 'from God' or 'divinely appointed' (in layman's terms), that's all. It's a commonly used and there are no issues using that term in this context.