49 replies to this topic

[Ugly Jinn]

1. Do you believe Agha Khan is divine because of heredity only? Or there are other factors?
2. If Agha Khan is divine, why doesn't he do something to prove us that he is?
3. Does Agha Khan have any special powers?

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Ugly Jinn, on 14 May 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

1. Do you believe Agha Khan is divine because of heredity only? Or there are other factors?
2. If Agha Khan is divine, why doesn't he do something to prove us that he is?
3. Does Agha Khan have any special powers?

This will be an interesting thread, ishAllah. I hope some Ismaili Brothers/Sisters respond as I am yet to hear or read about their views

[Ugly Jinn]

Where art thou Ismailis?

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 11 June 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[KimK]

I think you should post this thread in the General Discussions section OR go to Ismailichat.com

[Cypress]

Ugly Jinn, on 14 May 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

1. Do you believe Agha Khan is divine because of heredity only? Or there are other factors?
2. If Agha Khan is divine, why doesn't he do something to prove us that he is?
3. Does Agha Khan have any special powers?

1. The Imam is no different from the 12 A'immah of the Twelvers: the Imamate passes down through the Fatimid line (descended from Fatima via Ali). He is not divine. If you believe in the idea of the 12 A'immah's imamates, then you already understand how the imamate works in Ismailism.
2. He is not divine.
3. The Imam is the leader of the faith and he helps us understand tawhid. We Shi'i Muslims believe the A'immah do this. The difference is that we do not believe in an Imam in Occultation who consults with scholars, we have our Imam in front of us to teach us the heart of the faith.

I'm not sure why these principles are being brought up, because Shi'i tenets are all the same. Our A'immah are different lineages, but the principles are identical: the role of the Imam and the Imamate, the notion of the baatin, the heredity of the lineage from Faatimah, the importance of the statement at Khumm, etc. There's absolutely no difference between what Twelvers and Ismailis believe about the Imamate, only about how it works in practice.

AND THE IMAM IS NOT DIVINE. That's a backhanded takfir you got going on there, and I don't appreciate it. Takfir is haraam.

I remind you again of the Amman message. Check its signatories - Sistani, Khameini, Najafi, as-Sadr, Lankarani, al-Fayyad, al-Hakim, the Imam al-Khoei Foundation and Fadlallah are Twelver scholars who signed it alongside Shah Karim, al-Imam al-Hadhir of the Ismailis.

[Ugly Jinn]

1 & 2. Twelvers consider 12 Imams as divine agents.

3. So if he is not divine (which is surprising), then he is not guided by God (like twelvers claim Ahlul Bayt were).

-------------

Can you answer these follow up questions:

a. Is he sinless?
b. Is he guided by God or makes his best fallible judgement? (you said he isn't divine)
c. Besides lineage, is there anything else that makes him an Imam?
d. Does he have any special powers?

[Cypress]

Ugly Jinn, on 21 June 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

1 & 2. Twelvers consider 12 Imams as divine agents.
3. So if he is not divine (which is surprising), then he is not guided by God (like twelvers claim Ahlul Bayt were).

The A'immah are considered divine agents, which isn't the same as being divine. One indicates God gives guidance, the other is a ghuluww idea that breaks tawhid and I am sure that you did not mean that. Of course we believe that the Imam is guided; that's what an Imam is. But an Imam isn't actually divine anymore than Muhammad was. We Shi'a are not Christians!

Ugly Jinn, on 21 June 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Can you answer these follow up questions:
a. Is he sinless?
b. Is he guided by God or makes his best fallible judgement? (you said he isn't divine)
c. Besides lineage, is there anything else that makes him an Imam?
d. Does he have any special powers?

a. The Imam is faultless in matters of faith, but still a human being.
b. He's divinely guided like any other Imam in Shi'i Islam.
c. Nass
d. He has no magical powers, no. He does convey blessings, but he doesn't, you know, cure the sick with magic powers. (He does employ a large stable of doctors to aid the impoverished ill, however. :-) ) Is that what you mean? Not like one of those Christian revivalists who claims to be able to make people with HIV well and the paralysed walk... that's not the Imam's job. Plus, if the A'immah had magic powers, they wouldn't have been imprisoned and murdered so often, amirite? Besides, reading Ja'far as-Sadiq works makes it crystal clear that he was a first-rate mind with no patience for that kind of nonsense. (Musa al-Kazim as well, although I do not accept him as an Imam. A brilliant man, though.)

[Ugly Jinn]

1. But if he is a divine agent, why doesn't he prove it?

2. If a man comes to you and claims he is Al-Mehdi, the divine Imam, what proof would you ask from him?

[AlwaysChangingHisUserName]

What's your opinion on the Hadith of the Twelve Successors?

[Cypress]

Ugly Jinn, on 22 June 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

1. But if he is a divine agent, why doesn't he prove it?
2. If a man comes to you and claims he is Al-Mehdi, the divine Imam, what proof would you ask from him?

This is bizarre. Ja'far as-Sadiq was a remarkable scholar and man but he did not run around making miracles. Neither did Musa al-Kadhim, who Twelvers consider his successor. Both were solid, kind, scholarly men who inspired the community, not rainmakers or miracle-makers. Proof? He is the appointed successor, he has the nass, his leadership reinforces belief.

As an Ismaili, I don't believe in the Mahdi. This requires me to believe there was an Imam in Occultation according to Twelver beliefs, which of course I do not. There have been times of Occultation for Ismaili Imams, but these periods were literally times when the Imam was in hiding for protection, not mystical events. So I don't, can't have an answer for that. Imam al-Mahdi is a Twelver idea. Our twelfth Imam was Muhammad al-Qaa'im biAmri l-Lah, second Caliph-Imam of the Fatimids, who was born in Syria and then moved to al-Mahdiya, Tunisia, where he ruled until his death.

As for the Hadith of the Twelve - Ismailis don't accept it as valid, nor have they, as a reference to the Imamate. Why would the leadership of the Imamate end? What kind of sense does that make - God gives us a guide to follow for all time, then they stop coming?

[Kismet110]

Salaams Ya Ali Madad

Can I ask what LGBT stands for in your Interests profile Cypress?

ALI

[Ugly Jinn]

Cypress, on 25 June 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

This is bizarre. Ja'far as-Sadiq was a remarkable scholar and man but he did not run around making miracles. Neither did Musa al-Kadhim, who Twelvers consider his successor. Both were solid, kind, scholarly men who inspired the community, not rainmakers or miracle-makers. Proof? He is the appointed successor, he has the nass, his leadership reinforces belief.

As an Ismaili, I don't believe in the Mahdi. This requires me to believe there was an Imam in Occultation according to Twelver beliefs, which of course I do not. There have been times of Occultation for Ismaili Imams, but these periods were literally times when the Imam was in hiding for protection, not mystical events. So I don't, can't have an answer for that. Imam al-Mahdi is a Twelver idea. Our twelfth Imam was Muhammad al-Qaa'im biAmri l-Lah, second Caliph-Imam of the Fatimids, who was born in Syria and then moved to al-Mahdiya, Tunisia, where he ruled until his death.

As for the Hadith of the Twelve - Ismailis don't accept it as valid, nor have they, as a reference to the Imamate. Why would the leadership of the Imamate end? What kind of sense does that make - God gives us a guide to follow for all time, then they stop coming?

Why are you using twelver's belief of Imamat to justify your belief? I'm not asking you to answer by making comparisons.

I'll ask my simple questions again and add more specifics:

1. If Prophet Khizr walks upto you and claims he is a divine agent, what proof/s would you ask for? (if you don't believe Khizr's occultation than just assume any divine agent)
2. You keep repeating 'nass', what exactly do you mean besides lineage as proof?

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 26 June 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[Abdul Qaim]

Ugly Jinn, on 26 June 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

1. If Prophet Khizr walks upto you and claims he is a divine agent, what proof/s would you ask for? (if you don't believe Khizr's occultation than just assume any divine agent)

Are you suggesting our Ithna 'Ashari Imams performed miracles for anyone who wanted proof of their imaamah? Personally, I think the best proof,  was their peerless 'ilm . Now, you may want to ask cypress whether her imam has ever demonstrated that sort of knowledge, or whether being designated by the previous imam is sufficient in itself ...

[Ugly Jinn]

Abdul Qaim, on 27 June 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Are you suggesting our Ithna 'Ashari Imams performed miracles for anyone who wanted proof of their imaamah? Personally, I think the best proof,  was their peerless 'ilm . Now, you may want to ask cypress whether her imam has ever demonstrated that sort of knowledge, or whether being designated by the previous imam is sufficient in itself ...

The problem is that 'ilm' is subjective. That's why you have plethora of religious leaders from various religions with mass followings.

And cypress will believe Agha Khan has ilm.

That's why a confirmation is needed, not subjective opinion.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 27 June 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[Abdul Qaim]

Ugly Jinn, on 27 June 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

The problem is that 'ilm' is subjective. That's why you have plethora of religious leaders from various religions with mass followings.

And cypress will believe Agha Khan has ilm.

That's why a confirmation is needed, not subjective opinion.

What sort of confirmation would you suggest?

[Ugly Jinn]

Abdul Qaim, on 27 June 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

What sort of confirmation would you suggest?

It has to be something a non-divine human can't replicate.

If a man comes to you and claims he as al-Mehdi, what proof would you ask from him?

[AlwaysChangingHisUserName]

Ugly Jinn, on 27 June 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

If a man comes to you and claims he as al-Mehdi, what proof would you ask from him?

Anything we could ask for could, theoretically, be faked. If a man claims to be Imam al-Mahdi (may Allah hasten his reappearance) I would probably just disregard him. Why would the Imam approach me above all others?  The Imam could prove himself without us setting the standards. The Imam would have proof enough to convince all.

[Abdul Qaim]

Ugly Jinn, on 27 June 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

It has to be something a non-divine human can't replicate.

If a man comes to you and claims he as al-Mehdi, what proof would you ask from him?

Just so you understand, our Imams almost never performed "miracles" on demand, and would almost always refuse to do so when asked, so what if al-Qa'im was before you and he didn't perform miracles or demonstrate supernatural abilities for you? Would you reject him?

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Ugly Jinn, on 27 June 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

It has to be something a non-divine human can't replicate.

If a man comes to you and claims he as al-Mehdi, what proof would you ask from him?

Salaam alaykum

I have noticed that you have been arguing against the view held by the Shia School of Thought in many other posts and threads, but I also recall you saying that you were not a Sunni? Forgive me if I am wrong. I am just curious to know are you a Muslim? Because I gather you are Shia so I thought perhaps you maybe a Sufi? Or possibly a non-Muslim?

Not that it's any of my business, I was just curious to ask

I hope I don't derail the thread because I am interested in reading the views of the Ismaeili's

[Ugly Jinn]

Ja, on 27 June 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

Anything we could ask for could, theoretically, be faked. If a man claims to be Imam al-Mahdi (may Allah hasten his reappearance) I would probably just disregard him. Why would the Imam approach me above all others?  The Imam could prove himself without us setting the standards. The Imam would have proof enough to convince all.

It was a hypothetical question and theoretically possible. Even if a person claimed to be al-Mehdi with some followers, how would you verify his claim?

Abdul Qaim, on 27 June 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

Just so you understand, our Imams almost never performed "miracles" on demand, and would almost always refuse to do so when asked, so what if al-Qa'im was before you and he didn't perform miracles or demonstrate supernatural abilities for you? Would you reject him?

If a person who was in front of me declared himself a divine agent (ex. al-Mehdi) but did not provide any undeniable proof, only smart replies, then I would reject him. Otherwise there would be no difference between myself and those who believe Agha Khan is a divine agent.

If al-Mehdi is not going to demonstrate any supernatural abilities then you can't blame Ismailis for believing in Agha Khan, they are using the same subjective template you will use.

Ali Musaaa , on 28 June 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

I have noticed that you have been arguing against the view held by the Shia School of Thought in many other posts and threads, but I also recall you saying that you were not a Sunni? Forgive me if I am wrong. I am just curious to know are you a Muslim? Because I gather you are Shia so I thought perhaps you maybe a Sufi? Or possibly a non-Muslim?

Not that it's any of my business, I was just curious to ask

I hope I don't derail the thread because I am interested in reading the views of the Ismaeili's

To be honest, I'm somewhat everywhere. I don't know if I fit a specific label, because even within Shiasm there are different prerequisites to be a Shia. I probably won't qualify as a Shia because I have couple of couple of issues with the fundamentals.

There are some fundamental issues I have with Shia school of thought, I'm sure you already observed them. I'm actually fascinated by what people believe and why. Unfortunately, most (around 95%) believe what they were taught when young. So the first thing I did was to rip apart everything that was mentally fed to me while growing up and look at everything objectively.

Basically, I question everything, and quite honestly, it's mentally stimulating and productive.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 28 June 2012 - 09:49 AM.

[Abdul Qaim]

Ugly Jinn, on 28 June 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

If a person who was in front of me declared himself a divine agent (ex. al-Mehdi) but did not provide any undeniable proof, only smart replies, then I would reject him. Otherwise there would be no difference between myself and those who believe Agha Khan is a divine agent.

If al-Mehdi is not going to demonstrate any supernatural abilities then you can't blame Ismailis for believing in Agha Khan, they are using the same subjective template you will use.

Therein lies the rub. If the performance of miracles to all and sundry was mandated by Allah in order that we may recognise the prophet or imam of our time, then there would have no dissension amongst mankind with regard to Deen al-Haqq. Religion would no longer be about faith, but purely demonstrable fact. There have been many books written on this very subject by mystics, theologians, and philosophers over the centuries, and the debate still continues.

The irony is that the Imams usually only manifested "supernatural" (for the want of a better word) abilities to those who already accepted and believed in their walayah. Their actions and knowledge are the best source of ma'rifah for the believers and, with regard to al-Qa'im , his fulfillment of prophecies and predictions given by the Prophet (saw) and the previous Imams is another factor for consideration.

[Haydar Husayn]

Cypress, on 25 June 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Imam al-Mahdi is a Twelver idea.

No. Sunnis believe in him too. The only difference is they believe he is yet to be born.

Quote

Our twelfth Imam was Muhammad al-Qaa'im biAmri l-Lah, second Caliph-Imam of the Fatimids, who was born in Syria and then moved to al-Mahdiya, Tunisia, where he ruled until his death.

Interesting name he had...

[Abdul Qaim]

Haydar Husayn, on 28 June 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

No. Sunnis believe in him too. The only difference is they believe he is yet to be born.



Interesting name he had...

Bingo ...

[Ugly Jinn]

Abdul Qaim, on 28 June 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Therein lies the rub. If the performance of miracles to all and sundry was mandated by Allah in order that we may recognise the prophet or imam of our time, then there would have no dissension amongst mankind with regard to Deen al-Haqq. Religion would no longer be about faith, but purely demonstrable fact. There have been many books written on this very subject by mystics, theologians, and philosophers over the centuries, and the debate still continues.

The irony is that the Imams usually only manifested "supernatural" (for the want of a better word) abilities to those who already accepted and believed in their walayah. Their actions and knowledge are the best source of ma'rifah for the believers and, with regard to al-Qa'im , his fulfillment of prophecies and predictions given by the Prophet (saw) and the previous Imams is another factor for consideration.

Then your approach to believe in an Imam is no different than an Ismaili believing in Agha Khan.

A miracle would authenticate their divinity, otherwise it results in what we have today - plethora of 'divine' leaders in various religions with following.

[Abdul Qaim]

Ugly Jinn, on 28 June 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

Then your approach to believe in an Imam is no different than an Ismaili believing in Agha Khan.

A miracle would authenticate their divinity, otherwise it results in what we have today - plethora of 'divine' leaders in various religions with following.

I'm sorry to tell you, but the Imams themselves almost never performed miracles in order to prove their imaamah, which is why even amongst the Shi'ah, there were a plethora of individuals who claimed the position for themselves, some of them quite successfully. What you are asking for is undeniable proof, which is something that has generally not been supplied by the Imams - at least not in the manner you expect it.

I'll tell you what, why don't you ask Allah (swt) to send a banquet of mana and quails down from the heavens, and then you can be 100% sure of His existence?