60 replies to this topic

[omar111]

Can you sin in Christanity? Jesus abolished death or sin? Will all rapist and killer Christians go to heaven?
The Law was destroyed by the Jesus so there can be no breaking the law,so there is no sin in Christianity
Roman 7:6 "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter
Ephesians 2:8–9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
So why do good work? A rapist and a Saint are equal on the Day of Judgment.

[fahimah18]

according to one of my christian friends, they don't have a small sin or a big sin. A sin is sin for them and if you ask for forgiveness before you die and you'll enter heavens,  may that be a saint or a rapist

[omar111]

Your friend must be a Catholic. Protestants do not believe in confession. They do try to trick you that they don’t believe in Confession to a priest, but they confess directly to Jesus. But there is evidence towards confessing to a priest eg: Mt 9:2-8, Jn 20-23, 2 Cor 5:17-20, James 5:13-15, James 5:16, Mt 18:18.
But there is no verse in bible that teaches that you can confess your sins directly to Jesus. So you either confess to a priest or there is no confession in Christianity, as Protestant believe that only faith and not work, can save you.
Leviticus 16:21 shows that confession is an integral part of forgiveness. “Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness…”But the Law was abolished by Jesus.
Christianity has many confusing issues. Sinning and monotheism are just few of them

fahimah18, on 13 May 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

according to one of my christian friends, they don't have a small sin or a big sin. A sin is sin for them and if you ask for forgiveness before you die and you'll enter heavens,  may that be a saint or a rapist

[Son of Placid]

omar111, on 13 May 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Can you sin in Christanity? Jesus abolished death or sin? Will all rapist and killer Christians go to heaven?
The Law was destroyed by the Jesus so there can be no breaking the law,so there is no sin in Christianity
Roman 7:6 "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter
Ephesians 2:8–9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
So why do good work? A rapist and a Saint are equal on the Day of Judgment.

I think your friend is hip-hop.

You'll have to read a little more than one verse to know which "law" they were free from. Sheer logic says nobody is free from God's laws.

Again, what does "grace" mean? What does faith mean?

If you believe it is going to rain tomorrow you will take an umbrella, if you believe it is going to snow you will pull out a heavier coat. If your path is going to be muddy you bring out your rubber boots.
Faith is the action of belief. If you believe in God then you know you have a responsibility to Him. It's not the works, (anyone can feel a social responsibility) but the reasons for the works are what counts. "Whatever ye shall eat or drink, or whatever ye shall do, do all to the glory of God" <---- Written by the same guy who said we were free from "the" law.  

You make it sound like forgiveness is an elevator button. " Press the repent button and it will take you to the heaven floor" What's the chances? Could a religion really be so stupid, so illogical?

Grace is not gained by saying "pls forgive me". Grace is not our choice, it's up to God. What the verse is trying to say is that no matter what self serving deeds you do it won't get you in heaven.

Sin is sin, major/minor has the same effect. The Holy Spirit leaves you alone. It cannot live in a sinfull environment. It takes true repentance to gain forgiveness, recurring sins aren't that forgivable. Like it says, "not all that call LORD LORD will be saved". Those who skim Christianity and use the parts they like to live their own lives will never know what happened on the last day.

Praying to Jesus is like praying to saints, or Imams. Some seem to You should pray straight to God. Jesus gave a path to salvation, but it's God who should hear our prayers. I don't know who's trying to trick who. Wow, them christians sound like a coniving bunch.

[omar111]

Son of Placid, on 14 May 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

I think your friend is hip-hop.

You'll have to read a little more than one verse to know which "law" they were free from. Sheer logic says nobody is free from God's laws.

Again, what does "grace" mean? What does faith mean?

If you believe it is going to rain tomorrow you will take an umbrella, if you believe it is going to snow you will pull out a heavier coat. If your path is going to be muddy you bring out your rubber boots.
Faith is the action of belief. If you believe in God then you know you have a responsibility to Him. It's not the works, (anyone can feel a social responsibility) but the reasons for the works are what counts. "Whatever ye shall eat or drink, or whatever ye shall do, do all to the glory of God" <---- Written by the same guy who said we were free from "the" law.  

You make it sound like forgiveness is an elevator button. " Press the repent button and it will take you to the heaven floor" What's the chances? Could a religion really be so stupid, so illogical?

Grace is not gained by saying "pls forgive me". Grace is not our choice, it's up to God. What the verse is trying to say is that no matter what self serving deeds you do it won't get you in heaven.

Sin is sin, major/minor has the same effect. The Holy Spirit leaves you alone. It cannot live in a sinfull environment. It takes true repentance to gain forgiveness, recurring sins aren't that forgivable. Like it says, "not all that call LORD LORD will be saved". Those who skim Christianity and use the parts they like to live their own lives will never know what happened on the last day.

Praying to Jesus is like praying to saints, or Imams. Some seem to You should pray straight to God. Jesus gave a path to salvation, but it's God who should hear our prayers. I don't know who's trying to trick who. Wow, them christians sound like a coniving bunch.

You are trying to prove that Christians have a clear concept about Grace. The fact is that Grace is the most confusing concept in the Christianity. The major difference between different forms of Christianity is how they define Grace. Within Christianity, there are differing conceptions of grace. In particular, Catholics and Protestants use the word in substantially different ways. It has been described as "the watershed that divides Catholicism from Protestantism, Calvinism from Arminianism, and modern liberalism from conservatism".
Catholic doctrine teaches that God uses the sacraments to facilitate the reception of His grace. In Catholic theology justification is a term that means the cleansing of sin in a person, and the communication by grace of "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22) " through Baptism. The Council of Trent explains that the instrumental cause of grace is by the holy Sacraments of the Church
Protestants generally do not hold that view. In other words, even without the sacraments, divine grace has been imparted by God to humanity. The Protestant view is that there is an antithesis between grace and works. To assert one is to reject the other. The Protestant view of justification is predicated on the works/grace antithesis. It is not grace in relation to Christ. “We are justified freely through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24). Christ paid and Christians will not pay for their sins. That is justification by grace. Among many Protestants, faith actually serves the same role that grace does in Catholic theology.
In Luther's Larger Catechism we see faith identified as the vivifying principle in salvation:
For in the sight of God faith is what really renders a person holy, and alone serves Him, but the works are for the service of man (145).
Article IV of the Augsburg Confession states:

...men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ's sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight.



Although Christians may try to deceive us with words like justification and grace, the fact remains that in Christianity, a rapist and a Saint are the same. There is no sinner in Christianity as they believe that Christ paid the full punishment for them.







Titus 3:5 (ESV)



5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Romans 5:18 (ESV)
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men..

[placid]

Hi Omar,

I believe Son of Placid is busy with his baseball coaching at present so, I thought I would give you an answer, lest you think that what you said is right.

You gave a pretty good description of the definitions of Grace in your copy and paste, but your conclusion is not so good.

Quote: Although Christians may try to deceive us with words like justification and grace, the fact remains that in Christianity, a rapist and a Saint are the same. There is no sinner in Christianity as they believe that Christ paid the full punishment for them.


Response: It takes time to study the words you don't understand like jusification and grace as well as foregiveness and righteousness.

Your thought that any wicked person will be saved if they just say they are a Christian, is foolhardy.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

[Son of Placid]

Not trying to prove ALL Christians have a clear concept, just what I understand.

That's why I assumed your friend was hip-hop because their thots are "Jesus saves man! That's covered, let's party"

If that was the case the Quran would not say Christians will not grieve on the last day.

1 John 1:9 says, If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Quote

Titus 3:5 (ESV)
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

It's really not fair to pick one verse out of such a great letter to Christians.

1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, ² to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.
³ At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. ⁴ But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, ⁵ he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, ⁶ whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, ⁷ so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Note that even Paul, (who wrote the letter to Titus) did not say we will become heirs, but said might.

Quote

Romans 5:18 (ESV)
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men..

Here again Paul does not give any promise of salvation, he merely states the possibility for all men.

[omar111]

Hi Placid,
The placid family cannot win me by quoting bible, as I consider myself an expert in Bible studies. The verses posted by you are the MISCELLANEOUS SUPPLEMENTARY COUNSELS given by Jesus to His Disciples after the Sermon on mount. These are only meant for his disciple and you cannot apply them to the general Christian. Can they perform exorcisms?
    I think the Son is confusing personalities, I don’t have a friend,that he is writing about. But every Christian I meet in the street is confused about the subject of the Sin. In fact, if all the Christians are not forgiven, most of them will end up in Hellas no Christians consider divorce and remarriage as adultery, most of them practice it and will end up in Hell.

1 Corinthians 6
⁹ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Luke 16
¹⁸ Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her from her that is put away husband committeth  adultery Luke 16

Titus 3
5. Not by--Greek, "Out of"; "not as a result springing from works," &c.
of righteousness--Greek, "in righteousness," that is, wrought "in a state of righteousness": as "deeds . . . wrought in God." There was an utter absence in us of the element ("righteousness") in which alone righteous works could be done, and so necessarily an absence of the works. "We neither did works of righteousness, nor were saved in consequence of them; but His goodness did the whole" [THEOPHYLACT].
we--emphatically opposed to "His."
mercy--the prompting cause of our salvation individually: "In pursuance of His mercy." His kindness and love to man were manifested in redemption once for all wrought by Him for mankind generally; His mercy is the prompting cause for our individual realization of it. Faith is presupposed as the instrument of our being "saved"; our being so, then, is spoken of as an accomplished fact. Faith is not mentioned, but only God's part. as Paul's object here is not to describe man's new state, but the saving agency of God in bringing about that state, independent of all merit on the man's part
Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Bib is very strict in some places. Can any Christian claim that he is not guilty of such a sin?
   Matthew 5:22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, `You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, `You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
And do they confess of calling someone a fool? What if a person dies without confessing for not forgiving a person who raped and killed his daughter? What if a person is killed without confessing his sin? This whole concept of only the confessing repentant Christians getting into heaven is flawed. The correct position is that every sinner was saved by Christ. Here is an answer by a Christian
The Word of God teaches us that we are all sinners. (Romans 3:23) It also teaches us that the wages of sin is death. (Romans 6:23) Jesus, the perfect Son of God, came to die for our sins so that we could be saved. He died physically on the cross, and spiritually He experienced what spiritual death was like (what we would have all suffered in the lake of fire forever if He hadn't died for us.) when He was separated from God. (See Matthew 27:46) He rose from the dead 3 days later and conquered death for us. Now, all sinners can be saved if they will just by faith believe in Him and trust Him as their Lord and personal Savior. (See John Chapter 3 and Romans 10:9-13.) I hope that this is helpful. Thank you and God bless you!

[Son of Placid]

The Placid family isn't trying to win you over. I'm only stating my understanding, my Father his. If you want to describe what you understand a Christian is feel free, but you may not convince me to fall into your christian slot. Interesting you don't accept quotations from the Bible but don't mind quoting them yourself to basically come to the same conclusions as I have been saying.

As for miscelaneous supplements given by Jesus. Does anyone else call it that? "Many will say to me in that day..." Many of the disciples? Doesn't say Many of you. "Many" is not a term normally used for "under a dozen"

Only Disciples can do exorcisms? Granted, the average Christian you meet in the street, probably not, what about the average Muslim? Do you believe exorcisms are still done today? Are they as dramatic as the movie?

I'm glad you don't have any hip-hop friends but do you really question every christian you meet in the street? If every christian is from a different denomination they aren't confused, they just have different opinions but I can understand how that would be more confusing to you.

When you call yourself a Bible expert two things come to mind. Firstly, I would think that you would know better what the Bible says without religious doctrines, therefore closer to the truth than the average christian, yet you don't believe it. Secondly, how do you become an expert in a field you don't believe in? Possibly your expert studies are in trying to prove it wrong? Wondering if you are old enough to be an expert at anything? Just asking...I have no idea.

Calvinism from Arminianism, lol.  Main argument...predestination.
A little story,
A muslim, a Jew and a Christian die in a car crash and meet at the pearly gates. St Peter says, "C'mon in, I'll show you around." After an amazing tour of this wonderous paradise they come to a tall wall that seems to divide the heavens. One of the three call out to St Peter, "Hey, what's on the other side of this wall??" St. peter runs back quickly and says, "shhhh, those are the Calvanists and they believe they are the only ones here."

What is it you want to know about Christian sin? Is it different from Muslim sin? Is there not Islamic repentance for sin?
What if, what if, what if...Just be grateful God is the judge.

Quote

Now, all sinners can be saved if they will just by faith believe in Him and trust Him as their Lord and personal Savior.

I'm not sure how simple you read this but "just by faith believe in Him" sure takes the oomph out of it, besides not really making sense. Maybe ask that Christian what he thinks that means.




.

[omar111]

It is not a prerequisite that a person must believe in a thing he is an expert in. An expert simply has a special knowledge of a subject. I merely alluded to this to show the Placid family that they are not dealing with a novice.
In Islam, the repentance is called a tawba. But I am trying to prove that even an unrepentant Christian will go to heaven.
Why fight the Christian concept that a rapist and a saint will be equal in kingdom of heaven, if they believe in Christ?
"Be it known unto you therefore, Brethren, that through this man is proclaimed unto you the forgiveness of sins, and by him all that believe are justified from all things" (Acts 13:38.)
`The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth from ALL sin'; and I left the whole lot - great and small –
if I knew that there was a poor degraded drunkard in this gathering whose life has been blighted, his home destroyed and his children beggared by his cruel selfish vice, I would still say to him, "Brother, in spite of the loathsome sin that has spoilt your life, you are included in that `ALL.'"nside that wonderful word, `ALL.'"

"O Love, Thou fathomless abyss!
My sins are swallowed up in Thee:
Covered is my unrighteousness,
Nor spot of guilt remains on me;
While Jesus' blood through earth and skies
Mercy - free, boundless mercy - cries."

A sermon by W. Hay Aitken, Norwich, England, 1925
1 Peter 1:5 who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 8:31-39 What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is the one who will condemn? Christ is the one who died (and more than that, he was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will trouble, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “ For your sake we encounter death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we have complete victory through him who loved us! 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers, nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 5:1,8 Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, … 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
The book of Hebrews states Christ’s death is the only sacrifice which counts and is once and for all time.
Hebrews 9:11-14 But now Christ has come as the high priest of the good things to come. He passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, 12 and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
Hebrews 9:26-28 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice. 27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment, 28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.
Hebrews 10:12-14 But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right handof God, 13 where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.



    Yes, the concept of Grace and justification is very confusing in Christianity. But tell me what the belief of Placid family about sin is? Will you simply go to Hell because you called me a fool? Will you go to heaven if you were a serial killer but later confessed?

A country preacher decided to skip services one Sunday and head to the hills to do some bear hunting.  As he rounded the corner on a perilous twist in the trail, he and a bear collided, sending him & his rifle tumbling down the mountain side.  Before he knew it, his rifle went one way and he went the other, landing on a rock and breaking both legs.  That was the good news.  The bad news was the ferocious bear charging at him from a distance, and he couldn't move.
"Oh, Lord,"  the preacher prayed,  "I'm so sorry for skipping services today to come out here and hunt.  Please forgive me and grant me just one wish, please make a Christian out of that bear that's coming at me.  Please, Lord!"
That very instant, the bear skidded to a halt, fell to its knees, clasped its paws together and began to pray aloud right at the preacher's feet.  "Dear God, bless this food which I am about to receive."

[Son of Placid]

Aha, thanks for clearing this up. So you want to be one of those Christian, eh?
If you can prove that you can say "I believe" and will go to heaven from that point on you might convince me to become one of those kinda Christians as well, although I kind of enjoy living by the disciplines both Jesus and Paul taught.
Tawba   If this link is in agreement with your understanding, this is awesome. Thanks for this. It is spelled out better than I've ever seen it before and imho is very accurate.
Then again you'd never have to worry about it if you were one of those kinda christians
You could go one step farther and claim you are one of those predestined. I have my own opinions there too.
I believe there is only one thing that can separate us from God enough to end us up in hell and that is us. My concept of grace is as Paul said, "All our righteous is as filthy rags" There is nothing we can do to earn our way into heaven. It is totally up to God who gets into heaven. The majority of your Christian concept is right but having faith includes a lot more than "believing". Sorry about the saved by yay christianity thing. If it sounds too good to be true it normally is, of course you know that already,

[omar111]

As a Muslim, I don’t believe that Jesus died on the cross. But if Christians believe this, it could be for only one thing that he died, He died to pay for your sins. That is why you have so many sinners in Christanity, as they believe they cannot sin. Adultery is not a sin for most Christians as they are saved by the Lamb sacrifice.
    This is crazy that Jesus had to die for our sins were so that you could be forgiven and go to be with the Lord. Do all unrepentant Christians go to Hell?
2Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf,
1Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,
So my dear friend, there are only those type of Christians. The desperados. Calvinists think King David remained saved while in adultery and murder. Do you think David is in hell? The prodigal remained saved while in wild living and being with prostitutes; that drunkards can be unrepentant and saved at the same time; etc. Paul never repented of being the worst of sinners! How then did Paul, as the worst of all sinners even worse than Judas, conform more and more to be like Jesus? 1 John 2:4 would have to label Paul as a liar and the truth is not in him. How could the person God used to write half of the Bible be without truth?
Ephesian4 . ³⁰ And _l do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief
John 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.  If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.
Once a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact. Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven
Confusing? Yes. That is why I love the simple concepts of Islam.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

Omar111 clearly has read his Pauline epistles but likely not in full as they are chock full of moral guidelines on how to be a good Christian, according to Paul at least, and he obviously hasn't read the Epistle of James.

[placid]

Hi Omar,

Quote from Post 1
Can you sin in Christanity? Jesus abolished death or sin? Will all rapist and killer Christians go to heaven?
The Law was destroyed by the Jesus so there can be no breaking the law,so there is no sin in Christianity
Roman 7:6 "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter
Ephesians 2:8–9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
So why do good work? A rapist and a Saint are equal on the Day of Judgment.


Response: --- Quote: Can you sin in Christianity?
--- We are all sinners. --- Yes, Christians yield to temptation and find themselves led away from God, --- but your statement that there is no confession of sin is wrong.

--- I’m not sure how you could read the NT and not find verses on sin and confession, which would answer your question. --- I John 1:
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
2:1. My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Notice verse 9: --- If we confess our sins (to God), He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (He hears our confession and if it is sincere, He forgives us), --- and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The word “Cleanse” is as interesting as words like “Grace” and “Mercy”

We confess first, that we are sinners. --- after we have put our Faith in God, and have accepted Jesus as Savior, --- then, when we sin, and are ‘convicted’ in our inner being that we have sinned, --- we come back to God and ask forgiveness, --- and then God forgives us, --- and through His Holy Spirit “cleanses” us, from the inside, so that we will be strengthened in that area of temptation.

--- For example, I came from a family where the men swore occasionally, --- not excessively as many do today. --- They swore very rarely in the house, and usually only when angry. --- I learned that same habit, and you could almost think that being angry made an allowance for swearing.

--- Usually when men swear they use vulgar language and usually curse God and Jesus, --- and as soon as they do, you know it is the devil using the anger of the person to curse God.
--- So, one could almost say “The devil made me do it.”

But not so, --- The devil cannot be forgiven, and is the adversary, as you read in Surah 7:
16. He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
17. "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
18. (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, - Hell will I fill with you all.

--- So, if the devil could make me angry as a Christian, I would sometimes swear.
As soon as I did, I would feel the conviction, and not only would it ‘cool me off,’ --- but it would bring me to confessing to God quickly and again, asking His forgiveness.
--- After repeating this cycle numerous times and asking deliverance from my anger (which the devil used against me) --- the Lord “cleansed’ me from anger and from all bad language.
--- The Scripture says, be angry but don’t sin (don’t let it control you so that you become a servant of the devil). --- Anger is a natural emotion, but it genders hate, and hate is the opposite of Love, --- and God is Love.

Our world is in chaos because of hatred, is it not? --- So the devil promotes division which genders hatred and results in war

Jesus taught, "Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as you love yourself."


Cleansing takes time, but it is through tribulation, confession and forgiveness, that we are brought closer to God and can pray to Him daily, --- and we are instructed to pray in Jesus’ name.
--- There is this verse that gives us even greater assurance in 1 John 2:
1. My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

The word Advocate means, --- One who comes along side, --- One to speak on our behalf, --- a lawyer.
--- so, if Jesus is my lawyer, then I can take everything to him in prayer for daily guidance.

--- In your many good Scriptures, I believe you used the first verse of Romans 5:
1. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2. through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
4. and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
5. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

(That was just your first question, so I will add more later.)


Placid

[soloman]

Quote from Major Yeats - Brown: - Summary of Christian Doctrine of Atonement

" NO HEATHEN TRIBE HAS CONCEIVED SO GROTESQUE AN IDEA, INVOLVING AS IT DOES THE ASSUMPTION

, THAT MAN WAS BORN WITH A HEREDITARY STAIN UPON HIM: AND THAT THIS STAIN ( FOR WHICH HE HAS

NOT PERSONALLY  RESPONSIBLE ) WAS TO BE ATONED FOR: AND THAT THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS HAD TO SACRIFICE

HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO NEUTRALISE  THIS MYSTERIOUS CURSE "

Soloman

[Son of Placid]

Major Yeats - Brown isn't very bright if he's still thinking the curse is that mysterious.
The curse upon all mankind is not because Adam ate a forbidden fruit. Even the Quran says Adam sinned, but does not elaborate on the what's n whys of it all. We know that Adam was repentant and was forgiven so why hold a curse over him? There is a reason this fruit was forbidden and it wasn't jus cuz. If you read the Biblical story you will notice that after eating this forbidden fruit Adam and Eve noticed themselves naked. Not only did they hide themselves from God but wore fig leaves to hide what was naked. They were told that if they ate of it they would die. We know that Adam had a perfect body because God created it perfect, (not like ours) and a perfect body would never die. So how did he become "naked"? There was a physical change in his body. No specifics mentioned other than from that day forward Adam had to cover his "shame". I don't know what grew...maybe pubic hair, maybe reproductive organs, it's hard to say but the main thing that happened since that point on is everybody dies. The fruit (that was forbidded for a reason) contained an impurity that caused his body to become mortal. It wasn't the sin that was the curse it was the reprocussions from the sin.

Another contraversey that comes up often is; Do the sins of the father get carried on to the next generations? The Bible says so...It also says the son will not bear the sins of the father. Is this a contradiction? In context, no. If your father kills someone you will not go to trial, but if your father contracted an inherant disease, aids, stds, etc, his sin (which caused it) will follow down the generations.

Does that help any?

[placid]

Hi Omar,

To continue from Post 1.
Quote: Jesus abolished death or sin?


Response: --- Jesus paid the penalty of sin, which is death. He did not ‘abolish’ death, as we still die physically. --- Neither did He abolish sin, --- people still sin.
It says this in Matthew 27:
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

--- When Jesus died on the cross and yielded up His Spirit (which couldn’t die), --- the veil of the Temple in Jerusalem ‘was torn in two from top to bottom’ (signifying that God opened the Holy of Holies to all believers). --- This did away with the priesthood where people had to pray to, or through, a priest, --- so the Most Holy Place had been thrown open with the death of Jesus, --- for all to come directly to God with their prayers.

--- There was an earthquake, and the graves were opened.
AND MANY BODIES OF THE SAINTS WHO HAD DIED, AROSE, --- and later, showed themselves in Jerusalem  
--- These saints who had died and were buried (and now rose in a visible body, --- though it would have been a Spiritual body, which, after their appearance to the people in Jerusalem, --- would be taken up to heaven), --- were now the visible proof that there was a resurrection for the saints.

--- But only the SAINTS arose. --- All sinners would remain in the ‘prison of death’ (1 Peter 3:18-20) till the Judgment at the Last Day. --- They cannot be prayed for to escape God’s judgment. --- Their state was settled on earth when they had their faculties and chose to disregard God’s plan of salvation..

Quote: The law was destroyed by Jesus, so there can be no breaking the law,so there is no sin in Christianity


Response: --- Jesus said in Matthew 5:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

--- While you would like to pronounce judgment on everyone who breaks a commandment, --- Jesus gives a different perspective.
--- Whoever breaks one of the least, --- and teaches men so --- he will be called least IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.
--- This begs the question --- How did he get into the kingdom of heaven if he broke a commandment?

This is where you don’t get it. --- The basic Ten Commandments are still in effect.
Jesus said, “I came not to destroy but to fulfill.”
--- He said, “A new Commandment I give unto you, that you love one another. By this shall all men know that you are My disciples if you have love one for another.”

So if the laws are written on the heart by the Holy Spirit of God, then it is easy for believing Christians to recognize one another, --- and, don't you think that God automatically knows the ones who have His Holy Spirit indwelling them?

Notice what Jesus said about the scribes and Pharisees?

So if your righteousness depends on keeping some laws, --- you are still ‘bound by the law,’ as Paul said, --- and your ‘righteousness’ will be like the scribes and Pharisees, --- who ‘would by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.’

--- You see, to keep laws to gain favor with God is something YOU do.
--- To yield to God and receive His Holy Spirit within our mortal bodies, that gives us the capacity to love others (even our enemies Matthew 5:43-48), is something that GOD does.  

And your next verse says it perfectly, --- and this was written by Paul:
Roman 7:6 "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter


Placid

[omar111]

Hi placid,
But the basic question in Christianity is why Jesus died a painful death?
Calvin proposed a beautiful answer that God select the ones to be saved and Christ’s death was necessary because it provided the necessary penalty for the sins of the elect. This is great and powerful philosophy. The only problem is that it destroys the need to do the Muslims believed that Jesus was saved from crucifixion.
righteous work. It teaches Christians to be desperados, as a rapist and a saint are equal, as far as human justification is concerned. Calvin had greater influence on modern Christianity, than you will dare admit. But if Paul and Mathew were saved and later became the leader of Christianity, there is some truth in Calvin.
There is indeed nothing less reasonable than to remove from ceremonies only the power of justifying, since Paul excludes all works indefinitely. To the same purpose is the negative clause,—that God justifies men by not imputing sin: and by these words we are taught that righteousness, according to Paul, is nothing else than the remission of sins; and further, that this remission is gratuitous, because it is imputed without works, which the very name of remission indicates; for the creditor who is paid does not remit, but he who Spontaneously cancels the debt through mere kindness. Calvin, Romans 4:6.
   This is indeed the most logical thing I have ever read in Christianity. The other philosophy is crazy.
2 Corinthians 2:10
CONFESS AND BE SAVED.
If death reigned before Jesus then all the Prophets are dead or in Hell. How could Christ save people before His coming to die on the Cross? Will David go to Heaven? The curse maybe neutralized for the people who came after Jesus, but the curse remains for the people before him. Jesus may save the Saints from the past but he will only save the rapist Christians, as forgiveness could only be possible after Jesus was crucified. So there can be Desperados, only in Christianity.
But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 2 Corinthians 2:10

In Christianity everyone is a sinner, and a sinner is only saved through confession. But the new law is very strict. If you call someone a fool, if you look at a woman with lust and if you divorce and remarry: you will go to hell. What if a person is accidently killed without a chance of confession? And the early Christians? If the confession to a priest is necessary, there was no church for them.
But confess to a priest or in your Home? Catholicism orders members to confess their sins to a man.
"One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the not confessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience." Pg. 374, #1493
"Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance:" Pg. 365, #1456
Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ." Pg. 374, #1495 (See also Pg. 364 #1448)
Understanding Roman Catholicism by Rick Jones

Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (Jn 20:21-23)

But Protestant believe that they can go straight to God's throne to receive forgiveness for their sins
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. " Psalm 32:5
Both views are supported by the Bible.
What is seldom mentioned is that the other party will be in Hell. If a sin not confessed to a priest is not forgiven, protestant will be in Hell. Lutheran Church has now reformed its position, Confessional Chairs now appearing in them. Luther was against a time allotted for Private Confessions but now we see confessional schedules in them. So the church is reformed a.ft"er sending thousands to hell? The general Episcopalian attitude toward private confession is "All may, some should, and none must

Hi placid,Hi placid,
As a Muslim I believe that Jesus was saved from Crucifixion.
But the basic question in Christianity is why Jesus died a painful death?
Calvin proposed a beautiful answer that God select the ones to be saved and Christ’s death was necessary because it provided the necessary penalty for the sins of the elect. This is great and powerful philosophy. The only problem is that it destroys the need to do the Muslims believed that Jesus was saved from crucifixion.
righteous work. It teaches Christians to be desperados, as a rapist and a saint are equal, as far as human justification is concerned. Calvin had greater influence on modern Christianity, than you will dare admit. But if Paul and Mathew were saved and later became the leader of Christianity, there is some truth in Calvin.
There is indeed nothing less reasonable than to remove from ceremonies only the power of justifying, since Paul excludes all works indefinitely. To the same purpose is the negative clause,—that God justifies men by not imputing sin: and by these words we are taught that righteousness, according to Paul, is nothing else than the remission of sins; and further, that this remission is gratuitous, because it is imputed without works, which the very name of remission indicates; for the creditor who is paid does not remit, but he who Spontaneously cancels the debt through mere kindness. Calvin, Romans 4:6.
   This is indeed the most logical thing I have ever read in Christianity. The other philosophy is crazy.
2 Corinthians 2:10
CONFESS AND BE SAVED.
If death reigned before Jesus then all the Prophets are dead or in Hell. How could Christ save people before His coming to die on the Cross? Will David go to Heaven? The curse maybe neutralized for the people who came after Jesus, but the curse remains for the people before him. Jesus may save the Saints from the past but he will only save the rapist Christians, as forgiveness could only be possible after Jesus was crucified. So there can be Desperados, only in Christianity.
But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 2 Corinthians 2:10

In Christianity everyone is a sinner, and a sinner is only saved through confession. But the new law is very strict. If you call someone a fool, if you look at a woman with lust and if you divorce and remarry: you will go to hell. What if a person is accidently killed without a chance of confession? And the early Christians? If the confession to a priest is necessary, there was no church for them.
But confess to a priest or in your Home? Catholicism orders members to confess their sins to a man.
"One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the not confessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience." Pg. 374, #1493
"Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance:" Pg. 365, #1456
Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ." Pg. 374, #1495 (See also Pg. 364 #1448)
Understanding Roman Catholicism by Rick Jones

Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (Jn 20:21-23)

But Protestant believe that they can go straight to God's throne to receive forgiveness for their sins
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. " Psalm 32:5
Both views are supported by the Bible.
What is seldom mentioned is that the other party will be in Hell. If a sin not confessed to a priest is not forgiven, protestant will be in Hell. Lutheran Church has now reformed its position, Confessional Chairs now appearing in them. Luther was against a time allotted for Private Confessions but now we see confessional schedules in them. So the church is reformed after sending thousands to hell? The general Episcopalian attitude toward private confession is "All may, some should, and none must."

So Modern Christianity found a compromise between Calvinistic predestination and Confessional Salvation. Eternal Security claims that one can be "in Christ," while willingly dead in "trespasses and sins," Although Church will keep denying it, most Christians believe this to be a license to sin. To be desperados!
If I was a Christian, I would believe in it. Jesus would not die a senseless and painful death, only to repent for the sin of Adam, as Adam was already forgiven. No man or God can pay for another man`s Sin. So if Adam somehow physically changed us into mortals, no sacrifice can change this. But what is logical is this that God made himself into a man and punished himself for our sins so we can have a license to sin in the name of the Lamb.
  “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.  ³⁸ “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.  ³⁹ “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.  ⁴⁰ “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise day," him up on the last (John 6)
Divine promise! You can easily draw the conclusion that the will of the Father is that all who were given to the Son  will not be lost and will be raised on the last day.  But, the common objection is that the will of the Father is not always accomplished.  In other words, it is the will of the Father that none is lost, but since his will is not always accomplished, there will be people who were saved but become lost.  This might seem a possible interpretation, but when we look at the next verse we see it doesn't work.  In verse 40 Jesus continues to tell you what the will of the Father is by saying that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in him will have eternal life and that Jesus would raise him up on the last day.

[placid]

Hi Omar,

To continue from Post 1.
Quote: Roman 7:6 "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter
Ephesians 2:8–9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Response: --- So I see that you didn’t acknowledge the fact that your verse said it right. ---Which verifies that Jesus said, “I came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill. --- So Jesus said, “A new Commandment I give unto you, that you love one another.”

This was a COMMANDMENT from God, --- but love can’t be forced because it is against our human nature.

We want to be loved, but when it comes to expressing love to others, we are selective and selfish. So Jesus said, “LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.”
--- Sorry, we can’t do that, --- that is really against our nature.
So, God gives us the capacity and desire through His Holy Spirit, --- TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER, ---  AS JESUS LOVED US.

So through LOVE, the law was fulfilled, --- so, read this verse again:
Roman 7:6 "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

Quote: Ephesians 2:8–9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Response: --- You follow the common practice of using a line or a verse out of context so you miss the meaning.
(When a verse starte with ‘for,’ - ‘wherefore,’ or ‘therefor,’ --- it is dependent on the verse before it, --- so you have to look back and see what it is ‘there for.’)

So here is the Scripture from Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

You see? --- Even verse 8, which begins with ‘For,’ --- is a conclusion to what was written be’for’e it.

Another thing to bear in mind is that Ephesians was written to Christians who had already been saved through God’s mercy, love and grace, (v 4-5).

So verse 8 says, “For by (God’s) grace you have been saved through (your) faith
And that (grace is) not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God (a gift cannot be paid for, or else it is not a gift).
9. (God’s grace to us) is not of works, lest anyone should boast (of what they did to obtain God’s favor}
10. (Now the concluding verse) --- FOR we (who are saved by God’s grace) are His workmanship (workers, who have been), created (re-created, or born of the Holy Spirit of God) in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS. --- Which God prepared beforehand that we (who are saved by God’s grace) should walk in them.

Now that should be plain enough.
That people are saved first --- and are submitted to God to do His GOOD WORKS.
--- This was God’s plan from ‘beforehand,’ --- that we are saved to serve, and should do His will and not our own, --- so we do His GGOD WORKS, and not just what we like to do, or think is good.

Se we become ‘servants of God,’ even as Jesus was a Servant of God.

James said, “Faith without works is dead,” --- “Can faith save you?”
It is plainly written that faith (believing, or having knowledge) without allowing God to change your life to fulfill His purpose, is dead, and produces nothing.
James said again, “Show me your faith without your works.” --- Dead faith produces nothing, so is really no faith at all.
--- And any GOOD WORKS that are done before Faith and Submission to God, --- are just good works.  

God’s GRACE which saves the sinner from the error of his ways, redeems him from the bondage of the law, and converts him into a vessel that God uses to do His GOOD WORK.  --- Faith is an ‘action’ word. --- We are saved to serve.

(One line yet to respond to in Post 1.)  


Placid

[omar111]

Hi Placid,
Quote:Response: --- Jesus paid the penalty of sin, which is death. He did not ‘abolish’ death, as we still die physically. ---
Atonement is the most confusing of Christian concepts.
There have been three major theories of atonement: the ransom theory, the Anselmian theory, and the Abelardian theory.

• The ransom theory, first propounded by Origen (c. 185 - 254), was developed from Mark 10:45 and explained the atonement as a price paid by God in Christ to the devil.
  
• St. Anselm (c. 1033 - 1109) explained that Sin violates God’s honor. It deserves infinite punishment since God is infinite. Man cannot pay because he is finite and morally bankrupt through sin. Christ in his atoning death paid the debt.
  
• The exemplarist theory of Peter Abelard (1079 - 1142) viewed Christ's death as inspiring the only method of reconciliation is to better man’s moral condition. This can be affected by man’s own will through repentance and reformation. The death of Christ is but the death of a noble martyr. He redeems us, only as his human example of faithfulness to truth and duty has a powerful influence upon our moral improvement

What is wrong with these Atonement theories is that they portray God as a cheater. God cannot sacrifice himself   to pay his own debt or to deceive Satan. God cannot pay the penalty of sin himself as the penalty is imposed by Him. Because this view represented Christ as suffering an exact equivalent of all the punishment that was deserved for all of the elect, so that they could all be pardoned and regenerated, it is sometimes called the Commercial theory
As for Examplarist theory, were all Prophet corrupt before Jesus? There was no moral example to follow before Jesus? This theory proceeds upon an erroneous concept of sin itself, making it to be something altogether within the power of man to rectify, the proper motivation being supplied by the example of Christ. The Moral Theory would also route many non-Christians to Hell after death because they had not had the opportunity to learn of Yeshua, Christianity, or the gospel message. They would be punished for not having been inspired by someone of whose existence they are unaware. This appears to many people to be illogical, irrational, unjust, and immoral

Opponents have argued that the idea of Penal Substitution is based solely on the concept of a criminal justice system which demands punishment for transgression. But no criminal justice system in the world would ever say that it is just to punish the innocent in place of the guilty. Some of the more prominent critics of penal substitutionary theory, who advanced arguments such as these, include Peter Abelard who criticized what he saw as the inherit injustice of Anselm's theory, and Faustus Socinus in his polemic De Jesu Christo Servatore (Of Jesus Christ the Saviour).
"What Socinus did was to arraign this idea as irrational, incoherent, immoral and impossible. Giving pardon, he argued, does not square with taking satisfaction, nor does the transferring of punishment from the guilty to the innocent square with justice" .J.I.r.Paker
The belief that God would send his son to Earth so that he could be tortured to death "assumes a view of God's moral nat>Ie that many modern readers would reject."  Michael Martin, "The Case Against Christianity," Temple University Press, (1991), Pages 252 to 263 Being omnipotent, God could have followed Yeshua's teachings and simply forgiven the sins of Adam and Eve and their descendents. Alternatively, God might have found another way that avoided the torture-execution of an innocent person.

The penal aspect of the atonement is often a stumbling block to modern theology, By way of contrast, those who hold to a Governmental theory of Atonement not only deny the penal aspect of the atonement but also substitution in the normal sense of the word. To such people, Christ died not as a substitute for sinners but as a substitute for punishment.
Gustav Aulen in his book Christus Victor argues that Penal Substitution is not rooted in a biblical understanding. He further argues that the early church father's primary model of the atonement was the dramatic image of Christ overcoming sin, death, and the devil which as come to be known as the "Christ Victor" view of the atonement.
"It seems logical that if the death of Yeshua satisfied God's need for justice, and if humans made no contribution to the process, then salvation and atonement should be granted to everyone -- to Christian believers and unbelievers alike. It is unclear why only those individuals who trust Yeshua as Lord and Savior will attain salvation, atonement, and Heaven." Gustav Aulen (transl. by A. G. Herber) Christus Victor: An Historical Study of the Three Main Types of the Idea of Atonement, (Macmillan:New York, 1977)

This argument has merit if indeed Christ died for all alike and his atonement is effectual for all alike. But that requires other theological assumptions to be superimposed on the doctrine.
Some Christians note that Eve and Adam were created as proto-humans without a sense of sin. After all, they ate the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in order to develop a knowledge of good and evil. Being without a moral sense, they cannot be responsible for eating the fruit any more than an animal might. Again, if the first parents are not responsible for eating the fruit, the atonement theory collapses

[placid]

Hi Omar,

Quote from Post 1
A rapist and a Saint are equal on the Day of Judgment.


Response: --- These are like the two extremes. --- One who lives a life of obedience to the Lord and accepts God’s plan of salvation, you might call a ‘saint.’
--- A rapist who commits intentional acts of rape is not submitted, or surrendered unto God, so, --- unless he stops his gross sins and then --- there is repentance and conversion down the line, so that he becomes a repentant sinner and yields his will unto God, --- he will suffer the penalty of sin, which is death and hell.

And rather than responding to your posts where you were mixing Calvinism and Roman Catholicism with Islam to use it as criticism of Jesus and the NT, --- I want to go to Post 20, where you say:


Quote: Atonement is the most confusing of Christian concepts.


Response: --- Sin started with the rebellion of Satan (Iblis) against God, --- which was before the creation of Adam and Eve, ---and if we begin with Surah 7, we find this:
2.  (It is) a Scripture that is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) - so let there be no heaviness in thy heart therefrom - that thou mayst warn thereby, and (it is) a Reminder unto believers.
3. Follow (O men!) the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition.
4. How many towns have We destroyed (for their sins)? Our punishment took them on a sudden by night or while they slept for their afternoon rest.
5. When (thus) Our punishment took them, no cry did they utter but this: "Indeed we did wrong."
6. Then shall We question those to whom Our message was sent and those by whom We sent it.
7. And verily, We shall recount their whole story with knowledge, for We were never absent (at any time or place).
8. The balance that day will be true (to nicety): those whose scale (of good) will be heavy, will prosper:
9. Those whose scale will be light, will be their souls in perdition, for that they wrongfully treated Our signs.
10. It is We Who have placed you with authority on earth, and provided you therein with means for the fulfilment of your life: small are the thanks that ye give!
11. It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who bowed down.
12. (God) said: "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
13. God) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
14. He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."
15. (God) said: "Be thou among those who have respite."
16. He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
17. "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
18. (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, - Hell will I fill with you all.
19. "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
20. Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
21. And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
22. So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
23. They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
24. (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."
25. He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."
26. O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!
27. O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.
28. When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "God commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, God never commands what is shameful: do ye say of God what ye know not?"
29. Say: "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere as in His sight: such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return."
30. Some He hath guided: Others have (by their choice) deserved the loss of their way; in that they took the evil ones, in preference to God, for their friends and protectors, and think that they receive guidance.
31. O Children of Adam! wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer: eat and drink: But waste not by excess, for God loveth not the wasters.
32. Say: Who hath forbidden the beautiful (gifts) of God, which He hath produced for His servants, and the things, clean and pure, (which He hath provided) for sustenance? Say: They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) purely for them on the Day of Judgment. Thus do We explain the signs in detail for those who understand.
35. O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you apostles from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you, - those who are righteous and mend (their lives), - on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.
36. But those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, - they are companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (for ever).

Do you want to comment on these verses before we go further?


Placid

[omar111]

Hi Placid,
GOD AND JUSTICE
In Islam sin is law-breaking. It does not corrupt the hearts and minds of wrong-doers. Adam's sin did not damage the world in any way. The punishment for the wrong-doing of Adam and his wife was to be sentenced to life on earth. The descendants of Adam are all put to the test of obedience, though according to most Muslims, no-one is considered to be guilty before they are born. Islamic law (Shari'a) and jurisprudence (Fiqh) mostly deal with lawbreaking. Man is created weak and makes faults and mistakes. In Islam sin or mistakes do not constitute a fundamental problem.  Because sin is seen simply as disobedience, and not as a complete separation from the creator, Islam does not have a concept of the corrupting and distancing consequences of sin.
In Christianity, sin is the fundamental problem, not just with humanity, but with the universe itself. When Adam and Eve distrusted God, following Satan, they caused a breach in the stability of the universe, so the death of Jesus was needed as and atonement for reconciliation,
   Have you ever wondered why there is no official theory of Atonement? And why Christian theologians wrestled with it, proposing various theories for it? The reason is this that Atonement makes the God unjust.God punished many innocents for the crime they never committed.
    He punished Adam for the crime of eve

And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner 1 TIMOTHY 2:14

He punished all women for the crime of one.

Genesis 3:15To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

He punished all humanity for the sin of eve but spared Jesus a sinful nature. Some Bible commentators hold the position that the sin nature is passed down through the father.  .  Remember, Eve was the one who sinned first.  However, sin did not enter the world through her.  It entered through Adam. So this is another injustice from God.
He punished Jesus for crimes he never committed.
Jesus, who is innocent and who does the will of God, becomes sin, subject to punishment. And the evil powers who oppose the reign of God by killing Jesus -- whether the devil, the mob, or the Romans -- are the ones who are actually doing the will of God, by killing or punishing Jesus to provide the payment that God's honor or God's law demands. The strange implication is that both Jesus and those who kill Jesus would be carrying out the will of God. In fact, asserting that both claims are true is nonsense.
No one can bear the burden of another. (35:19)Quran
And God was unjust when He paid his own debt.
If I owe you money or commit a crime. I must pay the price, not you or son of Placid.
Here is the paradox for you. If you say that you are only saved in the name of Christ, you destroy all righteous people who came before his time(making God cruel and unjust).If you say that people were saved for their righteous work, then Jesus died a senseless death(again making the god unjust

[Son of Placid]

Interesting, although your boldness reminds me of "Answering-christianity.com"  Not sure if it shows an expertise in the Bible, or in a popular theme.

Adam, quite responsible for his own sin, Eve for hers. Can you count Eve's sins? Bottom line, did Adam sin or not?

Was Eve guilty of sin, or of a crime? If the physical body changed what fun stuff changed with it?

So was crimes or sins Jesus was not guilty of?  Is "sin" and "crime" now interchangable?

Not much of a paradox if you're points are inaccurate, sorry.

[placid]

Hi Omar,

I wonder if you took time to read the verses from Surah 7?


Did you notice these?
23. They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
24. (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."
25. He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."


They acknowledged that they had sinned, both against themselves and against God, in that they were no longer innocent and holy.
They were both guilty of disobedience to God,
They said, "Unless you forgive us," --- God forgave them, but he didn't say, "Come back home, all is forgiven."

Instead he cast them out of the Garden and onto the earth among the animals instead of their first state among the angels.

Satan was cast out and down to the earth as well to be a continual enemy of mankind --- 7:
16. He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
17. "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
18. (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, - Hell will I fill with you all.

While you take sin lightly, it is not taken lightly in the Bible and Quran.

Since the devil won that first round and brought death on all men, Jesus defeated sin, death, and the devil, when he Rose to life again. --- Death couldn't hold Him, but only those who believe in God's Perfect Sacrifice of His Servant Jesus, --- who was CALLED God's Son, will benefit from it.

[Fatima Hussain]

Most Christians I know seem to be under the impression that in Christianity you can sin all you want, as long as you repent afterwards, and if you repent, ALL your sins are forgiven.  This seems contrary to some things Jesus said.  One sin Jesus mention that will not be forgiven is this: "Assuredly, I [Jesus] say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation." (Matthew 3:28-29) All sins are forgiven in Christianity, except this one.  Other verses talking about sinful actions are:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, abstrife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, frevellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21)

"They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents.  They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too." (Romans 1:30-32)

"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." (Matthew 5:32)

"We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine." (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."  (Revelation 21:8)

"For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder." (2 Corinthians 12:20)

"Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 19:18-19)

"But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell." (Matthew 5:22)

"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18)

"For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly." (Mark 7:21-22)

"But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater —has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.  Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them." (Ephesians 5:3-7)

Edited by ohhcuppycakee, 30 May 2012 - 09:23 AM.