37 replies to this topic

[Zakariya Ali]

Last week I was visiting my mother in law and we all went to the local masjid for Maghrib prayer. As we all lined up I placed my torbah in front of me shortly before the Imam began reciting al Fatihah and I quickly picked it up and placed it in my pocket after prayer. This masjid is is attended primarily by Sunnis but I dont let this stop me from following my madhab. The brother next to me shakes my hand and gives his salaams, he then asks:

"Brother, what was that?"

I look around and reply: "What was what brother?"

"What was that 'thing' you put your head on?"

"Its torbah"

The brother seemed confused and I proceed to ask the brother where he was from. He stated he was from India and he still wanted to know what I was using to pray. At this point I guessed he knew what it a torbah was but I decided to humor him and explain that it was clay and that I pray with it because I believed it was better to prostrate on something natural (as the Prophet (s) did) and that dirt and clay was tahir etc

The brother starts explaining to me that Muslims are divided into two groups, the Sunnis and Shiites and that the Shiites use clay to pray with to which I agreed and informed him I knew the differences.

The brother then begins to tell me that it is best to pray as the Prophet (s) prayed and that there is no hadith explicitly stating the use of a piece of clay by the Prophet (s). I told the brother I wholeheartedly agreed but with the exception that there are hadith, in the books (authentic Sunni hadith books) stating the prophet did pray on natural earth. The brother points to the carpet and explains this is where we should prostrate and that the carpet was clean. At this point I asked the brother:

"Did the Prophet (s) pray on carpet?"

The brother looks confused. I asked:

"Are there any hadith that state the Prophet (s) used a prayer rug?"

The brother didn't have anything to say. I went on to explain that Masjid al Nabi didnt have carpets until 300 years after the death of Rasoolallah (s) and during his lifetime would pray on the dirt floors of the masjid. The brother begins to smile nervously and suggests that maybe we should talk to the Shaykh (ie, the Imam that just led prayer) about any questions we may have and I said if I have any questions Ill let the Shaykh know. Then he got up and left.

***

Hadith from the works of Ahlul Sunnah wa Jammah:

Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri: I saw Allah's Apostle prostrating in mud and water and saw the mark of mud on his forehead [Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 1, book 12, no. 798; vol. 3, book 33, no. 244] and also [Sunan Abu Dawud, Urdu Edition, page 381, 376]

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: A cloud came and it rained till the roof started leaking and in thosedays the roof used to be of the branches of date-palms. Iqama was pronounced and I saw Allah's Apostles prostrating in water and mud and even I saw the mark of mud on his forehead. [Saheeh al Bukharee Volume 1, Book 11, Number 638]

The Messenger of Allah said: The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. [Saheeh al Bukharee, Book on Making Ablutions with Sand or Earth, hadith Volume 1, Book 7, Number 331]

Narrated Maymuna: Allah's Apostle used to pray on a Khumra (a small mat (made from palm leaf) sufficient just for the face and the hands while prostrating during prayers). [Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 1, book 8, no. 378]

The Messenger of Allah said: Make your faces dusty, and cover your noses with dust" [Targhib wal-Tarhib, Vol 1 page 581]

The Messenger of Allah said: Rub yourself by earth because its pity/mercy for you, pity/mercy just like the kind mother have mercy for her childern, verily you have been created from it, it is your livelihood (food) and to it you will be buried after death [Kanz al Ummal Volume 7 Hadeeth Number 19778]

The Messenger of Allah said: Bow/Prostrate your Face on earth/soil Towards Allah [Kanz ul Ummal Vo.7 Tradition No. 19809]

***

Has anyone else ever had similar experiences? Do any Sunni groups use torbah or something like it?
These traditions are listed only to show the allowance of using torbah, I dont mean to offend anyone and I hope you understand that I am simply sharing my experience.

[Alshajr]

Asslamalaykum Brother.

I have had many dicussions with Sunni's about turbah. From their perspective they are told from the mimbar that some deviant groups in Islam worship a stone and this is why they prostrate on it. They are not told as you have referred to above, that hadith of the Prophet of Islam (sawa) mention that he prayed on the earth and not cloth/carpet, even though cloth was commonplace.

It is a good opportunity to get Sunni's to become more familiar with their hadith books, in which they will see things they will want to question.

FImanillah!

[Muhammad47]

@ Zakariya Ali, Very nice way of turning the tables! Finally it was you who asked him the questions why he was praying the way he prayed. Not to offend him of course, but you get my point

Thanks for sharing!

[Kismet110]

Ironic; if Shi'ah didn't do it already (and Maula forbid they do anything rafidhi do) the literalist Najdis would no doubt love to pray on a turbah - "it's what the sahaaba and salaaf did, bro."

Although their objection is to praying on a tablet rather than praying on earth per se.

ALI

[Zakariya Ali]

Thanks for the replies everyone! Most educated Sunnis agree that it was Sunnah of our Prophet to make sajdah on earth but will often object to using a clay tablet made for this purpose, which some see as bid'ah. My best reply to this is that it is no different than using tasbih beads for dhikr, since these were also non existent at the time. Any other ideas?

[Kismet110]

There are also these narrations from sunni and Shi'ah sources to highlight the importance of salaat on earth:

“The Prophet never placed anything between his forehead and the earth…”

Ayesha Musnad Imam Ahmad 6:58

“Prostration is only allowed on earth or things that are from the earth, except those things which can be worn or consumed.”

Imam Jafar as Sadiq Wasail ul Shia 3:591

Although, depending on how you read the first one, it could be an argument against using a turbah but the important point is contact with earth I guess.

The Holy Prophet (saww) is recorded as having read salaat on a straw mat in sunni narrations but never come across one where it was anything but earth or straw?

ALI

[Zakariya Ali]

Ismahan007, on 15 May 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

anyway, I find most ppl who call themselves 'salafis' very ignorant and unreasonable. I wouldn't lose my mind over what they think of us, and also bro, you and ur family should have never prayed behind that imam, dont u know that we arent allowed to read our salah behind a non Imami person unless ur life is in danger and practicing taqeeyah???

My mother in law is a practicing Sunni, all of my wife's family is. My wife is Shia but grew up in Jordan her entire life and practices Sunni fiqh, she doesnt even use torbah to pray lol. I didnt meet the Imam of the masjid but I have no problem praying behind Sunnis. There are not many Salafi masjid here where I live and most of the Sunnis are generally very open minded. Some of my teachers are Sunni and they love Ahlul Bayt Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

[Muhammad47]

Well, I read once that if you pray behind a Sunni Imam then you should make the intention of praying alone inside jama'ah prayer. And about not praying behind Sunnis... As far as I know Allah SWT says in the Holy Quran that we should avoid the bad mosques.

[Ismahan007]

I could be wrong, but in our fiqh, you're only allowed to pray behind them if u fear for ur life like they will harm u if they know ur shia coz u refused to pray behind them nd so on... plus jama3a prayer isnt wajeb on us, u can pray separately u dont have to join them.

we are not allowed to pray behind an 'imami' imam who's adala is questioned let alone pray behind a mukhalif who rejects wilaya and have mawada for enemies of Ahlulbayt. God knows.

[Zakariya Ali]

I feel comfortable praying behind Sunnis, I will typically recite Surah al Hamd and another surah to be on the safe side however

[adnan121]

i don't feel comfortable at all ... i wait for them to finish there prayer ....!but if they are there i don't mind ..but i don't know how to pray with them ... i love the way there eyes open in my coll when they see me i don't know why there faces  becomes like they want to tell me some thing maybe a resist comment but shut there mouth  ...but yet i wait for them to finish , the last time i was at front praying alone they all came behind me i was so scared they should not say go on imam we all will pray with u ....! walllah wht prayer it would have been i would have prayed for wahbis tht day ...i would love to hear there ameen .

[Ismahan007]

Zakariya Ali, on 15 May 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

I feel comfortable praying behind Sunnis, I will typically recite Surah al Hamd and another surah to be on the safe side however

well, thats ur choice, if only u can proove it from islamic point of view wud be more nice.

[Muhammad47]

Ask Qul - QA Question : #233 Category: Salaat / Prayers Subject: praying behind Sunni imam Question: Is it permissible to offer congregational prayers behind a Sunni prayer leader? Answer: It is permissible but you must recite Hamd and Sura yourself even though the recitation may be in low voice.

If you require further clarification on this answer, please use the feature to respond to the stated answer.

http://www.qul.org.a...question_id=233

@ Ismahan, your marja' is Sayyed Sistani, right?

Question :

Is it permissible to offer congregational prayers behind a Sunni prayer leader?
Answer :

It is permissible but you must recite Hamd and Sura yourself even though the recitation may be in low voice.

http://www.sistani.o...=855722&id=1291

Question :

Can I say congregational prayer with my Sunni brothers? And can I lead prayers when I pray with them?
Answer :

There is no objection in standing in a Sunni congregational prayer. However, the person should recite Hamd and Surah on his own in the first two ‘Rak’ats’ – even if it has to be in low voice though. Also, it is permissible for him to lead them in prayer.

[sayed khalid sultani]

Kismet110, on 15 May 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

There are also these narrations from sunni and Shi'ah sources to highlight the importance of salaat on earth: “The Prophet never placed anything between his forehead and the earth…” Ayesha Musnad Imam Ahmad 6:58 “Prostration is only allowed on earth or things that are from the earth, except those things which can be worn or consumed.” Imam Jafar as Sadiq Wasail ul Shia 3:591 Although, depending on how you read the first one, it could be an argument against using a turbah but the important point is contact with earth I guess. The Holy Prophet (saww) is recorded as having read salaat on a straw mat in sunni narrations but never come across one where it was anything but earth or straw? ALI

Salam brother good point , agree with you

1. i don't see some one wear a carpet or any kind of animal or human being that eat the carpet.
2. the carpet that are currently manufactured are made of things which are grown from earth and mixed with other materials.
3. i can;t find any shia mosque which don't have carpet furnished if they emphasis that much on earth .
4. if the entire body is not on earth then why they consider very much the sajda place only ( maybe they have the point to contradict with Sunnis as they have sahih hadidh from ibn abbas to place the forehead into the ground otherwise the prayer won't be valid).
4. i see in some turbas mentioned the name of hussien, ali and others which i Definitely disagree with that.
5. some marja's even recommend for prostration on turba made from karbala earth because it's very pure ( i guess they have some other intentions behind this one also).
6. the marja;s say's if you  don't find the turba they place a piece of paper , now i see some goats eat paper i personally i saw this in Pakistan and Afghanistan, you can see a sample here.



which make the paper eatable? i don;t know what will be the response of Great marja's now.

7. if you find a khumara made of palm tree that will remove the barrier between two mazhabs.

regards,

[Zakariya Ali]

sayed khalid sultani, on 15 May 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Salam brother good point , agree with you

1. i don't see some one wear a carpet or any kind of animal or human being that eat the carpet.
2. the carpet that are currently manufactured are made of things which are grown from earth and mixed with other materials.
3. i can;t find any shia mosque which don't have carpet furnished if they emphasis that much on earth .
4. if the entire body is not on earth then why they consider very much the sajda place only ( maybe they have the point to contradict with Sunnis as they have sahih hadidh from ibn abbas to place the forehead into the ground otherwise the prayer won't be valid).
4. i see in some turbas mentioned the name of hussien, ali and others which i Definitely disagree with that.
5. some marja's even recommend for prostration on turba made from karbala earth because it's very pure ( i guess they have some other intentions behind this one also).
6. the marja;s say's if you  don't find the turba they place a piece of paper , now i see some goats eat paper i personally i saw this in Pakistan and Afghanistan, you can see a sample here.



which make the paper eatable? i don;t know what will be the response of Great marja's now.

7. if you find a khumara made of palm tree that will remove the barrier between two mazhabs.

regards,

Id like to reply to some of your points

1: carpets are made from various things, more notably carbets in most Western countries for example are made form Acrylic, many clothing items are made from acrylic. I have a hat made from such
2: carpets are made fro acrylic which are a type of plastic, some carpets are made from wool which is not from earth, but rather from an animal. If a carpet is made from cotton, cotton is also used to make clothing
3: this has more to do with context and culture, most places are furnished with carpet rather than dirt. Besides Sunni masjids are also furnished with carpet, event though it is Sunnah to pray on bare earth.
6: Goats eat all sorts of garbage,, animals have different diets from humans. human beings do not eat paper.. maybe you do? lol jk

[La fata illa Ali]

^ why does ur wife follow sunni fiqh if she is shia??? thats not good, u should tell her to follow jafari fiqh.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Salaam alaykum

As a revert, it was hard to for me to start using a turbah, especially being basically the only Shia in the whole masjid...

I was really nervous and scared to start using one, being the new Muslim I wasn't Turkish, like everyone else and I just tried to fit in the best I could and I didn't want to make myself stand out from my new Brothers... But I discovered that it was not allowed to prostrate on anything other than natural material so I gathered enough courage and eventually started putting down a leaf (as I don't have a turbah because I am the only Shia in the Masjid. I technically havnt met a Shia brother/Sister personally in real life so I don't have a proper turbah).

Every now and then someone will come and ask but the funny thing is, it's ALWAYS the younger Brothers who come and approach me. It's nice that they are interested and want to learn why ect but becuase they may not know the differences with Schools of Thought they are naturally eager to understand something they notice different. That is why I think the older Brothers who are older than me and the ones who are elderly don't bother asking because they may already know but only a handful of people have approached me about it.

I was reallllllyyyyyy worried about praying with a leaf at the start haha and spent about 2 weeks reaching into my pocket only to pull out nothing because I was too worried about what others would think very silly I know but eventually I decided that I don't care what they think because they will not judge me on the day when I am raised. So I felt in my heart that Allah has a far greater right on me to be feared then anyone else so I began to use the leaf for turbah

[Muhammad47]

Alaikoum Salam Ali,

Nice name you have choosen! Masha Allah. I am actually in the same situation as you are and also use a mat of palm leaf to pray on in the Mosque. If they start asking you about it then tell them about the hadith mentioned by brother Zakariya Ali:



Narrated Maymuna: Allah's Apostle used to pray on a Khumra (a small mat (made from palm leaf) sufficient just for the face and the hands while prostrating during prayers). [Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 1, book 8, no. 378]

As you know there is nothing they can say about it. So you can feel relax and just pray there.

PS Little bit off topic, but I would like to know how everybody experiences praying without the hands crossed in a Sunni Mosque. And do you guys also do Du3a Qunut?

Wassalaam

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Muhammad47, on 16 May 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

Alaikoum Salam Ali,

Nice name you have choosen! Masha Allah. I am actually in the same situation as you are and also use a mat of palm leaf to pray on in the Mosque. If they start asking you about it then tell them about the hadith mentioned by brother Zakariya Ali:



Narrated Maymuna: Allah's Apostle used to pray on a Khumra (a small mat (made from palm leaf) sufficient just for the face and the hands while prostrating during prayers). [Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 1, book 8, no. 378]

As you know there is nothing they can say about it. So you can feel relax and just pray there.

PS Little bit off topic, but I would like to know how everybody experiences praying without the hands crossed in a Sunni Mosque. And do you guys also do Du3a Qunut?

Wassalaam

Wa alaykum salaam

Thankyou Brother. Yes, I decided to call myself Ali after our Imam later on after converting to Islam on the 20th of Ramadan last year oddly enough it was inbetween the two tragic days of the Imams life, so I belief Ali is a fitting name after all

Yes Brother, whenever someone asks I just tell them the exact same reply, I say our Prophet (pbuh&hf) never prayed on carpet but he always prayed on natural materials and it's a personal thing for me as I want to follow the Prophet the best I can. It was so nice to hear one younger Brother say it was 'cool' that I do that haha, but one brother came up to me one time when I was praying with my friend who converted to Islam a month or so ago... So he is following the same School as me so he prays with his hands down. The Brother told me 'why do I pray with my hands down, when our Prophet crossed his hands? And why do you pray on a leaf?..." I told him straight up that it's not correct to say our prophet prayed this way as every Sunni School has a different view on hour the Prophet prayed, even the Malikis pray with arms down. We follow a different School to you that says we are to have our hands down... Then I told him, our Prophet did not have carpet in his masjid so he prayed on natural material... The Brother then said to me: "But if he had carpet, he would of prayed on it.." I didn't reply to this but I knew that no one should or could say he would of done this or that when something in his time was not avaliable to him..

He is a kind Brother and he came up to me and my friend because he knew we are new Muslims and he only did it because he wanted to help and 'correct' us and he repeatiy told me what I was doing was not wrong but he tried to correct me with different things. I just politely responded and anwered his questions and eventual he got up and we all lined up for Salah because he approached me when we finished the prayers before Fard Salah.

The Brothers at my Masjid are not stupid so I think they have caught on by now, but our Imam told me that it is permissible to follow Shia School so that's why I think he hasn't approached me or my friend about following it. Cos I asked him agesssssssss ago when I decided to follow Jafarri School to see the Sunni's view or at least what his view was becuase the Imam himself is a Scholar of Hadith so I wanted his opinion and not some random.


About Qunoot. Brother Qunoot is not wajib, it's mustahab (too the best of my knowldge. I may be wrong. If I am, inshAallah a more knowledgeable brother or sister will correct me) so when you pray behind the Imam you can pray and not do Qunoot but when you pray Sunnah/Nawafil/ recommended prayers before or after Salah you should do Qunoot or can if u so wish. That is what I do, I don't do Qunoot in Fard Salah behind Imam but I do it in my Salah afterwards. But you MUST do Allahu Akbar x3 raising your hands at the end of your Salah when everyone else turns to the right and then left. I didn't do this before because I was worried but now I do it every time and no one has said anything to me about it

InshAllah it will be easy for you

[sayed khalid sultani]

Ali , on 16 May 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

But you MUST do Allahu Akbar x3 raising your hands at the end of your Salah when everyone else turns to the right and then left.

asalamu alikum bro ,
have a look in this brother nader has made excellent page on taqeebat and how to do tasleem.
http://www.revivinga...laah-bidah.html
regards,

[Ali Musaaa :)]

sayed khalid sultani, on 16 May 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

asalamu alikum bro ,
have a look in this brother nader has made excellent page on taqeebat and how to do tasleem.
http://www.revivinga...laah-bidah.html
regards,

Brother, if it is Bidah why is it we are taught it in our Salah? I asked Sistani about raising the hands at the end in Salah and as far as I can remember the response was it was part of Salah and I cannot turn to the side like the Sunni's when I pray with them and I am to raise my hands 3 times and say Allahu Akbar x3

[Abu Muslim]

If you are going to go to a mosque of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah, then don't take a turbah with you. Simple.Just like how, I wouldn't go into a Husayniyat yelling praises for the Rightly guided Khalifs.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Abu Muslim, on 16 May 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

If you are going to go to a mosque of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah, then don't take a turbah with you. Simple.Just like how, I wouldn't go into a Husayniyat yelling praises for the Rightly guided Khalifs.

Why are you requesting us to refrain from practicing a Sunnah?



Secondly there is no such thing as a "Mosque of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'ah".

All Masjids are Houses of Allah and owned by Him alone. He gives us permission to use them, we do not in any way shape or form own them.

[Abu Muslim]

Ali , on 16 May 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Why are you requesting us to refrain from practicing a Sunnah?



Secondly there is no such thing as a "Mosque of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'ah".

All Masjids are Houses of Allah and owned by Him alone. He gives us permission to use them, we do not in any way shape or form own them.

The prophet SAW would pray on whatever was pure. That's like saying we should all have long hair because its a sunnah. Which is true it is a Sunnah having long hair, but having no hair is also a Sunnah. Going into Sunni masjid and praying without a turbah you are still following the Sunnah. Also, the dirt that the Prophet SAW would pray on is the dirt of Mecca/Medina, not the dirt of Karbala. Yes, All Masjids are houses of Allah, but it's common knowledge that Sunni and Shia both have their own mosques and in those mosques there isn't much tolerance for members of the other sect.

Edited by Abu Muslim, 16 May 2012 - 06:57 AM.

[alshemary]

Muhammad47, on 15 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Ask Qul - QA Question : #233 Category: Salaat / Prayers Subject: praying behind Sunni imam Question: Is it permissible to offer congregational prayers behind a Sunni prayer leader? Answer: It is permissible but you must recite Hamd and Sura yourself even though the recitation may be in low voice.

If you require further clarification on this answer, please use the feature to respond to the stated answer.

http://www.qul.org.a...question_id=233

@ Ismahan, your marja' is Sayyed Sistani, right?

Question :

Is it permissible to offer congregational prayers behind a Sunni prayer leader?
Answer :

It is permissible but you must recite Hamd and Sura yourself even though the recitation may be in low voice.

http://www.sistani.o...=855722&id=1291

Question :

Can I say congregational prayer with my Sunni brothers? And can I lead prayers when I pray with them?
Answer :

There is no objection in standing in a Sunni congregational prayer. However, the person should recite Hamd and Surah on his own in the first two ‘Rak’ats’ – even if it has to be in low voice though. Also, it is permissible for him to lead them in prayer.

Just a quick remark about offering congregational prayer behind a sunni imam,
when you read fatiha you are not praying in congregation, youre praying it individually WITH the group.. so your actions are the same but your intention can not be "Maa'mooman" <- which means as a group/congregational..

please correct me if i am wrong.. thank you

Abu Muslim, on 16 May 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

The prophet SAW would pray on whatever was pure. That's like saying we should all have long hair because its a sunnah. Which is true it is a Sunnah having long hair, but having no hair is also a Sunnah. Going into Sunni masjid and praying without a turbah you are still following the Sunnah. Also, the dirt that the Prophet SAW would pray on is the dirt of Mecca/Medina, not the dirt of Karbala.

Well, it doesnt have to be turba of mecca/madina/karbala.. Who told you it can only be turba from Karbala that we pray on? that is not to say that the turba of karbala is not holly, its sacred turba even in your sunni narrations it states that Allah sent to muhammad turba of hussein from karbala BEFORE his death!!! and whats more unique is that the prophets wife kept it in a jar i think ... doesnt that show the hollyness of this turba?? so why stop me from using karbala turba when i can??

Abu Muslim, on 16 May 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

Yes, All Masjids are houses of Allah, but it's common knowledge that Sunni and Shia both have their own mosques and in those mosques there isn't much tolerance for members of the other sect.

no, i would love to see a sunni brother come pray with me in my shia mosque because we are all for UNITY.. plus, this is how you show differing sects what your sect is really about/what it preaches!!
some ahlulsunnah (wahabis) create differences by calling us kafir and THOSE are the people who do not tolerate us..