128 replies to this topic

[Abu Muslim]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 10 May 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Yes,it's such thought to seek refuge from,Imam Ali(as)was born in ka'aba even sunnis admit,u just can't eliminate the signs of this incident,was Jesus's mother allowed to stay inside Mosque at the time of delivery..yes i consider it near the same thing,how can u say,it's not,just bcoz u don't believe it.

Ali was not the only one born inside the Kabah.

Edited by Abu Muslim, 10 May 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[Logic]

Vigilare, on 10 May 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Key word there is slogan.  Big difference in using Ya Ali Madad as a slogan and using it as a form of dua. I'm sure you'll know the difference.

I can't get a scan but I do know that Dr Muhammad As-Salabees' book on Abu Bakr stated that during the riddha wars Khalid bin Walid's army marched with the slogan 'Ya Muhammad'.....given that his books have the wahabbi stamp of approval, there must be something of a difference between a slogan and dua...

Allow me to rephrase myself. I consider Ya Ali Mada to be valid form of dua as long as its understood that he is the medium.

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Also, your logic is impeccable. Since sunni scholars have also studied Islam they must also be right in their views as well.....

According to their Sunni students i am assuming the answer is yes. I belong to the Shia school of though so naturally i hold my fallible leaders in the highest esteem.

Haydar Husayn, on 10 May 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

The fact that the scholars say it's halal isn't going to do anyone any good on Judgement Day if it turns out it wasn't.

I am willing to take that chance since the judge is Allah who knows the affairs of the heart. like i said, the consensus of scholars on this issue overides the opinion of a few shiachatters who recently gained the capacity to read a few islamic books.

[Rasul]

Abu Muslim, on 10 May 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Ali was not the only one born inside the Kabah.

And this is what Nawasib is claiming...

[Abu Muslim]

Rasul, on 10 May 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

And this is what Nawasib is claiming...

Muslim :: Book 10 : Hadith 3662
A hadith like this has been transmitted on the authority of Hakim b. Hizam (Imam Muslim) said: Hakim b. Hizam was born inside the Ka'ba and lived for one hundred and twenty years.

Edited by Abu Muslim, 10 May 2012 - 05:38 PM.

[Rasul]

Intentions are important in this question...

Abu Muslim, on 10 May 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Muslim :: Book 10 : Hadith 3662
A hadith like this has been transmitted on the authority of Hakim b. Hizam (Imam Muslim) said: Hakim b. Hizam was born inside the Ka'ba and lived for one hundred and twenty years.

This is belief of Nawasib indeed!

Edited by Rasul, 10 May 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[Abu Muslim]

Rasul, on 10 May 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Intentions are important in this question...
This is belief of Nawasib indeed!

No, just no.

[Vigilare]

Logic, on 10 May 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Allow me to rephrase myself. I consider Ya Ali Mada to be valid form of dua as long as its understood that he is the medium.

That's fine in principle. I just don't see the evidence for it. I can however see how this has become part of mainstream belief as a) part of possibly exaggerated beliefs of the Imams and in response to sunnis.

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According to their Sunni students i am assuming the answer is yes. I belong to the Shia school of though so naturally i hold my fallible leaders in the highest esteem.

So, Sunnis are right and so are Shias. How wonderful. I would assume though that you firmly believe that the thousands of sunni scholars who have established Abu Bakr's and Umer's companionship and status are wrong...

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I am willing to take that chance since the judge is Allah who knows the affairs of the heart. like i said, the consensus of scholars on this issue overides the opinion of a few shiachatters who recently gained the capacity to read a few islamic books.

Interesting comment there.  Majority opinion doesn't make it right or valid otherwise we'd all be going taraweeh...

Rasul, on 10 May 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

This is belief of Nawasib indeed!

No it isn't, and I'm sure we can have a separate thread about this.

Edited by Vigilare, 10 May 2012 - 05:50 PM.

[Rasul]

Abu Muslim, on 10 May 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

No, just no.

Yesss and yes!

Vigilare, on 10 May 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

No it isn't, and I'm sure we can have a separate thread about this.

Yes it is

[Logic]

Vigilare, on 10 May 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

That's fine in principle. I just don't see the evidence for it. I can however see how this has become part of mainstream belief as a) part of possibly exaggerated beliefs of the Imams and in response to sunnis.

I could also say this is a lack of islamic aqaid on your behalf since imamat is part of usool e deen.

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So, Sunnis are right and so are Shias. How wonderful. I would assume though that you firmly believe that the thousands of sunni scholars who have established Abu Bakr's and Umer's companionship and status are wrong...

Are you actually creating these scenarios on the fly? lol I ask because your approach is quite bizarre.

OP is asking if its permissible to say Ya Ali Madad as per Shia fiqh. The answer based on scholarly advice is its Halal. Period.


Last time i checked neither you or Haydar Hussain have a degree in Islamic studies, Nor do you have an ijaza, nor do you have a risala nor can you claim to be a zakir. All you have under your  belt is a few books (maybe) and a wild imagination.

The scholars are fallible and so are you. The choice between you and them is easy.

Edited by Logic, 10 May 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[Vigilare]

You don't know what my beliefs are. In any case, believing in Imamat doesn't mean you have to believe in using them in this context.

Apologies but the point I was making was that just because scholars say something is valid doesn't necessarily make it so. You replied by saying that shia scholars have studied Islam and therefore consider it halal or valid but that logic doesn't hold up when it comes, for example, to the beliefs of the sunni scholars who have also studied Islam.  Just because something has become a mainstream belief doesn't make it correct or valid.  

Honestly, I would accept this if there was proof which I just don't see.

This is of course one of those things that could go on forever, much like the discussion on tatbir.

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Last time i checked neither you or Haydar Hussain have a degree in Islamic studies, Nor do you have an ijaza, nor do you have a risala nor can you claim to be a zakir. All you have under your belt is a few books (maybe) and a wild imagination.

[Haydar Husayn]

Logic, on 10 May 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

I could also say this is a lack of islamic aqaid on your behalf since imamat is part of usool e deen.


Are you actually creating these scenarios on the fly? lol I ask because your approach is quite bizarre.

OP is asking if its permissible to say Ya Ali Madad as per Shia fiqh. The answer based on scholarly advice is its Halal. Period.

Ok, you follow the scholarly advice. Meanwhile, I'll follow what Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an, and not call on other than Him.

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Last time i checked neither you or Haydar Hussain have a degree in Islamic studies, Nor do you have an ijaza, nor do you have a risala nor can you claim to be a zakir. All you have under your  belt is a few books (maybe) and a wild imagination.

And a zakir would have credibility in your eyes?

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The scholars are fallible and so are you. The choice between you and them is easy.

Is the Qur'an fallible?

[Abu Muslim]

Why would a person even need Ali as a medium? One can directly seek the help of Allah swt.

[Vigilare]

Logic, on 10 May 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

The scholars are fallible and so are you. The choice between you and them is easy.

No contest. Obviously they've spent years studying Islam compared to my reading of a few books and I'm not arrogant to assume I know better.  However what I do know though is that people tend to validate their sectarian beliefs by picking and choosing which bits of [Islam and the Quran] fits in with that belief and promoting that.  I also know that any scholars who try to go against popular beliefs can be singled out and attacked, and I believe that you're aware of personal insults and doubts shown on shia scholars who have either questioned or objected to mainstream beliefs...

[singham]

according to shiites  hazrat ali is more merciful than Allah swt. for example if u  commit a sin Allah  become angry but hazrat Ali(ra) do not. so, HAZrat ali(ra) intercede on behalf of a person who commited  sin  and Allah  forgive the sin of that person lolz.

[Aly ReZa]

stop the mockery of our religion
Or be ready to watch the mockery of ammi jaan and all bakris
Lol ammi jaaan

[singham]

Aly ReZa, on 11 May 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

stop the mockery of our religion
Or be ready to watch the mockery of ammi jaan and all bakris
Lol ammi jaaan

we do not mock ur religion but u  urself

[Aly ReZa]

stop posting Videos
Temme here whats in the video

[Kismet110]

عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام «قال : ما مِن نَبيٍّ ولا وصيّ نبيِّ يبقى في الأرض بأكثر مِن ثلاثة أيّام ثمَّ ترفع روحُه وعَظْمُه ولَحمُه إلى السّماء ، وإنّما تؤتى مواضع آثارهم ويبلّغونهم مِن بعيدٍ السَّلامَ ويسمعونهم في مواضع آثارهم من قريب

"No Prophet or successor remains on earth for more than three days (after burial). Their souls, bones and flesh are taken up to the heavens. Hence by going to places which contain their signs, or saluting them from afar, they hear it as if they were near."

Narrated from Imam Jafar Sadiq Kamil Al Ziyarat Chapter 108 Narration 3

Sad that so-called Shi'ah are going against saying this.

Ya Ali Madad

ALI

Edited by Kismet110, 11 May 2012 - 07:04 AM.

[Rasul]

Sunni belief Abu Huraira is Allah!

[Haydar Husayn]

Kismet110, on 11 May 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام «قال : ما مِن نَبيٍّ ولا وصيّ نبيِّ يبقى في الأرض بأكثر مِن ثلاثة أيّام ثمَّ ترفع روحُه وعَظْمُه ولَحمُه إلى السّماء ، وإنّما تؤتى مواضع آثارهم ويبلّغونهم مِن بعيدٍ السَّلامَ ويسمعونهم في مواضع آثارهم من قريب

"No Prophet or successor remains on earth for more than three days (after burial). Their souls, bones and flesh are taken up to the heavens. Hence by going to places which contain their signs, or saluting them from afar, they hear it as if they were near."

Narrated from Imam Jafar Sadiq Kamil Al Ziyarat Chapter 108 Narration 3

Sad that so-called Shi'ah are going against saying this.

Ya Ali Madad

ALI

Yes, they hear as if they were near when we are at their signs, but not from afar. And by the way, "Ya Ali Madad" is a dua, not a salutation. Nobody says there is anything wrong with sending salam to them from afar, and this is what the ahadith tell us to do. There are no ahadith on saying "Ya Ali Madad".

And the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said: Whoever gives salam upon me at my grave I hear him, and whoever gives salam upon me from afar I am informed of it, the peace of Allah be upon him and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.
http://www.tashayyu....ams-after-death


From Ziyaad bin Abee Al-Hilaal from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام): “There is neither a prophet nor successor of a prophet who remains on earth for more than three days. Thereafter, his soul, flesh and bones are taken up to the heavens. Furthermore, going to places which their marks are located, and conveying salaams to them from afar. They (will) hear from the places which have their marks (as if they were) nearby.”
Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 4, pg. 567, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1.    Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 18, pg. 284

http://www.revivinga...and-ahl-al.html

3202 – And Ibn Ubayy narrated from Hisham.  He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: When the difficult journey is long for one of you and home is distanced , then one is to ascend to the highest place of his dwelling and pray two rak`at and he is to betake with salam to our graves, for verily that reaches to us.


3203 – And in the narration of Hanan b. Sadir from his father.  Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said to me: O Sadir, have you visited (done ziyarat) to the grave of al-Husayn عليه السلام (once) in every day?  I said: May I be made your ransom, no.  He said: How rude you are! So you visit him (once) in every month?  I said: No.  He said: So you visit him (once) in every year?  I said: It has been as that.  He said: O Sadir, how rude you are to al-Husayn.  Do you not know that Allah تبارك وتعالى has a thousand thousand angels with unkempt (hair) and dusty (garments), crying and visiting unfailingly.  And what is upon you O Sadir that you visit the grave of al-Husayn عليه السلام five times in every Jum`a or once in every day.  I said: May I be made your ransom, between us and it there are many leagues.  So he said to me: Ascend above your roof then face to the right and left, then raise you head to the sky, then turn to the direction of the grave and you say “as-salaamu `alayka yaa Abaa `Abdillaah, as-salaamu `alayka wa raHmatullaahi wa barakaatuh”, a visitation will be written for you with that, and the visitation is a hajj and an `umra.  Sadir said: So sometimes I did that more than twenty times in the month.
http://www.tashayyu....e-2/chapter-220

[singham]

Rasul, on 11 May 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

Sunni belief Abu Huraira is Allah!

one can only expect nonsense from  nonsense.

[Rasul]

singham, on 11 May 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

one can only expect nonsense from  nonsense.

Sunnis stop worshiping your jewish master!

[singham]

Rasul, on 11 May 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Sunnis stop worshiping your jewish master!

no we do not worship ibn e saba.

[Logic]

Vigilare, on 10 May 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

You don't know what my beliefs are. In any case, believing in Imamat doesn't mean you have to believe in using them in this context.

Imamat is not just considering Ali to be the wali of the Prophet (Saww). Its a lot bigger then that. I am sure you know that already but i was clarifying my point.

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Apologies but the point I was making was that just because scholars say something is valid doesn't necessarily make it so. You replied by saying that shia scholars have studied Islam and therefore consider it halal or valid but that logic doesn't hold up when it comes,

Let me address you and Hyder Hussain both


I could care less if you believe Shaitan had wings and stays at Burj al Arab. My issue is that if you hold an opinion contrary to what the Scholars permit then

1) Show you proof of knowledge
2) Keep your mouth shut

Dont go around propagating stuff contrary to the scholars opinion just cause you have read a few book.

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for example, to the beliefs of the sunni scholars who have also studied Islam.  Just because something has become a mainstream belief doesn't make it correct or valid.  

This circular logic has no merit.

Shia Fiqh is more detailed and developed then Sunni fiqh. I dont follow Ahlesunnah school of thoughts so your questions are incorrectly phrased. I really dont have the time to put together a presentation of its validity for you.

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Honestly, I would accept this if there was proof which I just don't see.

This is of course one of those things that could go on forever, much like the discussion on tatbir.

I am still unsure about Tatbir so guess what i do? I dont practice it and i also keep my mouth shut. I dont discourage nor encourage others to perform it. At the end of the day they are responsible for their own actions. If the intention is sincere and out of love then maybe the Ahlelbayt would become a wasila for them.

Edited by Logic, 11 May 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Rasul]

singham, on 11 May 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

no we do not worship ibn e saba.

So you agree that Abu Huraira is Ibn Saba? lol