lol man after Jebreil response, I realize you can ask him tons of questions...all you have to do is know the answer to any of them, I was over thinking man.
That's probably the lesson he wanted to show. Sometimes you over think:
1) Does God exist?
If he says no, then he is lying. If he says yes, then he is being truthful.
2) Do I have two hands?
If he says yes, then he is truthful. If he says no, then he is lying.
3) Do I have two eyes?
If he he says yes, then he is truthful. If he says no, then he is lying.
etc, etc
Man damn....sometimes we over think!
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Analytic Thinking Promotes Religious Disbelief
Started by
Aryana
, May 01 2012 01:08 PM
85 replies to this topic
#77
alimohamad40
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Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:08 PM
salaam
i like to repeat what brother gebril has said because its a good point
I doubt guessing in analysis. Guessing is just experimental. If the question was of a harder nature, guessing one by one would get nowhere, but analysis would break the problem down to a soluble formula, which would then yield the correct response with only one go.
guessing and relying on the gut instinct is only when the numbers are so simple like 10+100=110
had the number been confusing people would get thier papers and pens out
But I dont think your question is an easy question and if i grab aithiests from the philosophy department I bet you they will mainly fail it the same way I failed it even after doing years of intensive mathematics and physics
so the study is trying to say the religious people rely more on the obvious things but the nonreligious will analyse deeper ?
but sometimes over analysing simple things to twist them is also negative
Here is my guess to your question:
Can you prove to me your telling the truth?
As for the liar.
If he says yes, then he is lying.
If he says no, he is being truthful, which is not possible..
The truthful person would remain silent and not say yes, because I would not know then, and he would no longer be able to prove it if he says yes. And he would not say no, because he can prove it by remaining silent.
That's my guess. I dunno, tough question.
as for my question you made a very smart guess but in the actual question they tell you that you can only ask one question and you only meet one of them which you dont know who he is,,,
as for your guess i would have thuoght that the truthful will answer no to your question because he know that there is the liar and he knows that you dont know so the truthful thing to do is to say " i can not prove to you that i am not the liar" and the liar will say " i can prove to you that I am not the liar" but then how do you know which one is hell and which one is heaven withpout asking aonther question?
so you have answered it if they allowed you many questions but you are theoretically able to know it from only one question paused at any of the two guardians ,,,
also i made a mistake in askign the question. i shoudlnt have given the clue that the liar is guarding hell and the truthful is guarding heaven... it should all be ambiguis
Mystic
What if the liar decided not to answer? And what if the truthful could prove to you, and was therefore under an obligation to tell the truth and say "yes"?
they wil both answer , none will refrain from answering
you also made a very smart guess and i think you got it because in your case you only need to ask one question.... eventhough you said ask both but with your method we can ask only one and if he said yes we cha nge direction....
but i made a msitake in askign the question by giving too much clues ,,, i wasnt supposed to say which one is guarding which gate heaven or hell.... you totally dont know which one is guarding which and you only can ask one question and you only meet one of them at a time and you are supposed to be able to know it from one question which is asked to any of them
so both of you are very sharp but the proper answer is still not said because i didnt ask the question right from the start
the question is that you are only allowed one question and you dont know if the liar is at the gate of heaven or hell he could be anywhere and you need to ask only one question about the direction and then start making your way to the direction of your choice in a one way no return ticket ....
if you get sick of it ill say it caus its tough and i didnt solve it either and didnt even get close to making guesses as smart as your guesses
i like to repeat what brother gebril has said because its a good point
Quote
I doubt guessing in analysis. Guessing is just experimental. If the question was of a harder nature, guessing one by one would get nowhere, but analysis would break the problem down to a soluble formula, which would then yield the correct response with only one go.
guessing and relying on the gut instinct is only when the numbers are so simple like 10+100=110
had the number been confusing people would get thier papers and pens out
But I dont think your question is an easy question and if i grab aithiests from the philosophy department I bet you they will mainly fail it the same way I failed it even after doing years of intensive mathematics and physics
so the study is trying to say the religious people rely more on the obvious things but the nonreligious will analyse deeper ?
but sometimes over analysing simple things to twist them is also negative
MysticKnight, on 05 May 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:
Here is my guess to your question:
Can you prove to me your telling the truth?
As for the liar.
If he says yes, then he is lying.
If he says no, he is being truthful, which is not possible..
The truthful person would remain silent and not say yes, because I would not know then, and he would no longer be able to prove it if he says yes. And he would not say no, because he can prove it by remaining silent.
That's my guess. I dunno, tough question.
as for my question you made a very smart guess but in the actual question they tell you that you can only ask one question and you only meet one of them which you dont know who he is,,,
as for your guess i would have thuoght that the truthful will answer no to your question because he know that there is the liar and he knows that you dont know so the truthful thing to do is to say " i can not prove to you that i am not the liar" and the liar will say " i can prove to you that I am not the liar" but then how do you know which one is hell and which one is heaven withpout asking aonther question?
so you have answered it if they allowed you many questions but you are theoretically able to know it from only one question paused at any of the two guardians ,,,
also i made a mistake in askign the question. i shoudlnt have given the clue that the liar is guarding hell and the truthful is guarding heaven... it should all be ambiguis
Jebreil, on 05 May 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:
Mystic
What if the liar decided not to answer? And what if the truthful could prove to you, and was therefore under an obligation to tell the truth and say "yes"?
they wil both answer , none will refrain from answering
Jebreil, on 05 May 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:
Ask both, "are you guarding the gate to the same place as the other guardian?"
The liar will lie and say "yes" and the truthful will tell the truth and say "no". Thus, if you hear "yes", change paths and if you hear "no", keep to it.
The liar will lie and say "yes" and the truthful will tell the truth and say "no". Thus, if you hear "yes", change paths and if you hear "no", keep to it.
you also made a very smart guess and i think you got it because in your case you only need to ask one question.... eventhough you said ask both but with your method we can ask only one and if he said yes we cha nge direction....
but i made a msitake in askign the question by giving too much clues ,,, i wasnt supposed to say which one is guarding which gate heaven or hell.... you totally dont know which one is guarding which and you only can ask one question and you only meet one of them at a time and you are supposed to be able to know it from one question which is asked to any of them
so both of you are very sharp but the proper answer is still not said because i didnt ask the question right from the start
the question is that you are only allowed one question and you dont know if the liar is at the gate of heaven or hell he could be anywhere and you need to ask only one question about the direction and then start making your way to the direction of your choice in a one way no return ticket ....
if you get sick of it ill say it caus its tough and i didnt solve it either and didnt even get close to making guesses as smart as your guesses
#78
MysticKnight
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Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:54 PM
Guess 1:
How can I know the way to heaven?
The Liar must tell me something that is false way of knowing...so it wouldn't provide knowledge.
The truthful person must tell me something that is true way of knowing...so it would provide true knowledge.
Guess 2:
If you were a liar, what direction would you tell me is towards paradise?
The liar can't tell me, because whatever answer he says, is what the liar would state, as a liar, which would make him tell the truth.
But the truthful would tell me what he would lie about, and it's the opposite of that. So go to the opposite direction.
Ok my head hurts...I think both of these are good guesses but the real thought came in guess number 2.
How can I know the way to heaven?
The Liar must tell me something that is false way of knowing...so it wouldn't provide knowledge.
The truthful person must tell me something that is true way of knowing...so it would provide true knowledge.
Guess 2:
If you were a liar, what direction would you tell me is towards paradise?
The liar can't tell me, because whatever answer he says, is what the liar would state, as a liar, which would make him tell the truth.
But the truthful would tell me what he would lie about, and it's the opposite of that. So go to the opposite direction.
Ok my head hurts...I think both of these are good guesses but the real thought came in guess number 2.
I promised my soul I will remember. Peace is upon the family of Taha and Yaseen.
"Plunge into the depths until you reach the truth."-Imam Ali.
"Plunge into the depths until you reach the truth."-Imam Ali.
#79 Guest_Jebreil_*
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Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:13 AM
mystic
I liked your 2nd attempt, as it was a genuinely thoughtful effort, though I think it is mistaken.
The question "which direction leads to paradise?" is different to the question "how would you answer the question 'which direction leads to paradise' if you were a liar?"
To show this, all you need to do is put each question to the Truthful one, and you'll get opposite answers. The Truthful answer to the first question would lead you to heaven and the Truthful answer to the second question would lead you to hell.
Thus, the Liar can also respond to the second question without being Truthful. The Liar's answer to the first question would lead you to hell and the Liar's answer to the second question would lead you to heaven.
The problem remains, of course, since we still don't know whether we asked the Liar or the Truthful.
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I'll see if I have an answer by tonight.
#80 Guest_Jebreil_*
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Posted 06 May 2012 - 12:07 PM
the question is that you are only allowed one question and you dont know if the liar is at the gate of heaven or hell he could be anywhere and you need to ask only one question about the direction and then start making your way to the direction of your choice in a one way no return ticket ....
Since you will meet a guardian who could be either Truthful (T) or Liar (L), you need to ask a question which would elicit the same response whichever one you ask.
Preliminary remarks
Every 'question of fact' asks for the fact, the truth.
If asked of the Truthful (T), she will answer with the fact. The Liar (L) will answer with opposite of the fact, i.e. falsehood.
The 2 guardians are said to have 2 values of veracity: one is Truthful T and gives the facts, the other is a Liar L and gives the falsehood.
Procedure
Ask any guardian you meet - whose veracity is unknown to you - "if you had the veracity of your counterpart, which path would you say leads to heaven?"
This is the question which will show you the correct coordinates of heaven and hell.
Demonstration
If the guardian is T
If the guardian is T, she will imagine that she has the veracity of her counterpart L. This means that she would have answered the question "which path would you say leads to heaven?" falsely, pointing to Hell instead.
Given that this guardian is in reality T, she shows exactly what would happen if she had been L, and points in the direction of Hell.
If the guardian is L
If the guardian is L, she will imagine that she has the veracity of her counterpart T. This means that she would have answered the question "which path would you say leads to heaven?" factually, pointing to Heaven.
Given that this guardian is in reality L, she shows exactly what would not happen if she had been T.
Further elaboration: The factual answer to the question "If you had the veracity T, which path would you say leads to heaven?" is to point to Heaven. But given that this question is answered by the Liar, the response would be opposite to the fact, pointing to Hell.
Conclusion
Since either guardian would point to Hell in response to the question "if you had the veracity of your counterpart, which path would you say leads to heaven?", one can comfortably take the road not pointed to.
QED
#82
alimohamad40
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Posted 07 May 2012 - 05:24 AM
salaam
mystic you made some thoughful guesses and gebril (mashallah) not only solved it but analysed it,,,,
its using the AND truth table
T and T = T
T and F = F
F and T = F
F and F = F
using the second or third ones
T and F = F
F and T = F
we make sure that both thier responses are included by asking any of them what the other will say... this will gurantee that both the responses will be included no matter who you ask..
If its the liar then his lie will be included and will falsify the truthful's response resulting a false answer.
if its the truthful then his truth will be included and will inform us about the lie of the liar resulting in false answer again
The response we will get will allways be false because our qustion will make sure that both the liar and truthful responses will be included in the same equation and multiplied and hence the result will be false. We can then simply act opposite to the reply that we get.
i remember another trick question similar to the one that mystic asked bu i forgot it if i remember ill post it
But the summury of it is that there is a transaction and some money goes missing and no one can justify it , it makes you draw a wrong assumption because in the transaction there is debit and credit but it introduces a third person without you realizing then when the missing value goes to the third person your instinct will automaticly make you add it to the credit and confuse yourself..
but when you put it on paper you will know.
mystic you made some thoughful guesses and gebril (mashallah) not only solved it but analysed it,,,,
its using the AND truth table
T and T = T
T and F = F
F and T = F
F and F = F
using the second or third ones
T and F = F
F and T = F
we make sure that both thier responses are included by asking any of them what the other will say... this will gurantee that both the responses will be included no matter who you ask..
If its the liar then his lie will be included and will falsify the truthful's response resulting a false answer.
if its the truthful then his truth will be included and will inform us about the lie of the liar resulting in false answer again
The response we will get will allways be false because our qustion will make sure that both the liar and truthful responses will be included in the same equation and multiplied and hence the result will be false. We can then simply act opposite to the reply that we get.
i remember another trick question similar to the one that mystic asked bu i forgot it if i remember ill post it
But the summury of it is that there is a transaction and some money goes missing and no one can justify it , it makes you draw a wrong assumption because in the transaction there is debit and credit but it introduces a third person without you realizing then when the missing value goes to the third person your instinct will automaticly make you add it to the credit and confuse yourself..
but when you put it on paper you will know.
#83
ZaqiYumani
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Posted 09 May 2012 - 02:46 PM
Salam...
When Allahs great people (before Quranic Islam) was writing on physics the came to a chapter that had rules, but were beond physics... so they decided to call it Metaphysics. This exists all over and around Al Quran, you se Bismilla in Arabic has 19 words. 1 is the first and nine is the last, as 10 is reusing one and zeero... also chapter 9(tuba(repentence)) is the only one to start with out bismillah... 9 on its own has more patterns then any other number,,, 999999999 is the number for hazrat Fatima"a.s".
Thus any number multiplied my nine the 2 digets will allways equall to nine ect ect...
When Allahs great people (before Quranic Islam) was writing on physics the came to a chapter that had rules, but were beond physics... so they decided to call it Metaphysics. This exists all over and around Al Quran, you se Bismilla in Arabic has 19 words. 1 is the first and nine is the last, as 10 is reusing one and zeero... also chapter 9(tuba(repentence)) is the only one to start with out bismillah... 9 on its own has more patterns then any other number,,, 999999999 is the number for hazrat Fatima"a.s".
Thus any number multiplied my nine the 2 digets will allways equall to nine ect ect...
#84
786 fordost
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Posted 03 June 2012 - 11:37 AM
according to Islam a person should always live between fear and hope. Fear of what would happen if disobeying God and Hope that God will help them if they do their best in life. Logic is a big part of Islam. God did give us, most of us, a brain, two eyes, two ears, a tougue and heart by these things we can observe the world around us and discover true knowledge. Inshallah we will take the uphill road. I think The shaitan tries to decieve peole throught analytical thinking but if a person is sincere with Allah Allah will show them the light and when they test any theory based on real research and logic whie having a sincere heart and open mind they might get confused at first but then Allah will show them something new they never imagined but all the many ways of getting the truth. I like it. Just when I almost doubt he shows me a form of science that is along those same line of thought that made me doubt and that science will lay itself out and I believe more than ever. ALHAMDULILAH
#86
alimohamad40
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Posted 21 June 2012 - 04:44 AM
godisbeyondreligion, on 15 June 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:
So much blind faith on this forum. A little thinking can actually save someone from a life of religious drudgery tbh.
your name doesnt make sense you need to start thinking
religion means a way of life ( a set of beliefs which reflects into actions on the ground , those actions regulate your life's ceremonial and trasactional activities
they prevent you from harming others or yourself and allow you to live in harmouny with the environement
so what does " godis byond religion" mean ???
a just god who is infinitely knowledgable will surely give instrcutions to the people so that they would live happily and have an accurate moral code?? or not ??? those instrcutions are called releigion
so in your ideal world god would just leave it up to the people to guess it ??? and hence why the wars and conflicts because people decided to do just that and ignored whats given to them on a golden plate
Edited by alimohamad40, 21 June 2012 - 04:44 AM.
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