71 replies to this topic

[Gypsy]

singham, on 01 May 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

u have researched into other sects  why dont u tell me about their view about this so called incident?

The earliest Zaydis used to have some of the similar belief with the Shias. They consider Abu Bakr and Umar as oppressors. The later Zaydis converted to Sunnism. Only God knows what their belief is nowadays.

Ismailis don't have much of hadith collections to speak of. Here is one http://www.shiachat....ili-collection/

Why reject us the Shia Ithna Asharis? You don't like to hear Umar and Abu Bakr's involvement in the death of Fatima(as)? They are also hadiths about Fatima (sa) being angry with Abu Bakr and Umar in Sunni books. Search google use site:www.shiachat.com "search string"

[Vigilare]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 01 May 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

bro singham,one correction plz,neither Bibi kulsoom(as)was adopted,neither marriage was forced,as IMAM JAFFER UL SADIQ(AS)vehemently refuted that claim.it was kulsum binte abu bakr married to him,and mauwiya propogated the fabrication about Holy Lady.

What is your view about the shia hadiths on this matter?

[md. ammar ali]

Kaniz e Zahra, on 01 May 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

Well i would like to reply personally,when i'll get an ample time,bcoz ur question r kind of,for which u need answers,not others r asking,so i feel sick if i wd be discussing with u,and somebody would plunge in frm nowhere to make a distraction,and discussion runs away from here to there,so u can tell me ur id in that case,though others r giving good replies,but they r not detailed,i felt.Regards.

i tried to PM u but it is not going

i guess you need to cross 50 posts

Gypsy, on 01 May 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

OP,
I think you are focusing too much on things that are vague and cloudy and not necessarily relevant to Islam.

I generally tends to read things that are more clearer and more related to Islam
Jamal War - Ayesha and Co fight the Imam of Time
Fatima refused to speak to the two Shaykhs due to them being her oppressors
The caliph snatches Imam Ali rights to be the leader of Ummah
Imam Hassan murder
Imam Hussein and his family massacre.

Gypsy, on 01 May 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

OP,
I think you are focusing too much on things that are vague and cloudy and not necessarily relevant to Islam.

I generally tends to read things that are more clearer and more related to Islam
Jamal War - Ayesha and Co fight the Imam of Time
Fatima refused to speak to the two Shaykhs due to them being her oppressors
The caliph snatches Imam Ali rights to be the leader of Ummah
Imam Hassan murder
Imam Hussein and his family massacre.

Aly ReZa, on 01 May 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

bro bro bro varun
What nonsense questions u r asking umar read nikah etc
Do you think that how shias would write the history as umar recited nikah and then curse Him today.
Use a logic man i knw u r revert so you are Trying to focus more and i understaNd that
Do you think the Imam husain a,s will recite his nikah by the killer of His own mother.
That all is bull[Edited Out] sunni history toi make the pepl blind.

yes i agree about -

fadak

jamal

mubahila

ghadeer

............


but when i saw that video - i got those doubts

i dont think i have done any mistake by posting that here

i have doubt - i asked - thats it

do u advice me to blindly follow the school of ahlulbayt ?


i accept the fact that imam ali is the successor - wali of Allah swt

i accept that the 3 are wrong

they snatched fadak and oppressed zahra


but .....what about these questions ??

why did imams name their children after them .............

[Kaniz e Zahra]

i will mention inshAllah,when posts will be completed,then u can msg me,ok?

[Aly ReZa]

any authentic narration about naming their sons as abu bakri umar usman

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Usman bin Ali(as)was named after Maula's sahabi,usman bin hanif,not on ibne affan,umar's name was actually Umair bin Ali(as)as u can found him amngst Shuhda e Karbala(as)as well,abubakr was no one.

[fahimah18]

please respond

when ahlulbayt were oppressed -

why did imam ali name his sons abu bakr , uamr , usman

We have proven from the books of Ahl'ul Sunnah that the names Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were common amongst the Arab tribes; these were the names of the sons of various parents.
We should point out that in our Shi'a text Munthee'ala Mahal Volume 1 under the Chapter "Shahadth" - we read the testimony of Imam 'Ali that he named one of his sons Uthman because on the day he was born he stated:

"I shall name this child after my brother Uthman bin Nat'eoon".

This is why the name Uthman was kept by Imam 'Ali it does not prove Uthman bin Affan's merit, not even in the slightest.

With regards to Imam 'Ali 's son Umar, we should point out that one of Imam 'Ali close Sahaba was Umar the son of Umm'ul momineen Salma . Umar was brought up by Rasulullah (s) and he fought alongside Imam 'Ali at Jamal, and was in fact one of his commanders during that battle. During his reign Imam 'Ali appointed him as Governor over Bahrain and Faris. To prove our point we suggest our opponents consult Asada al Ghaybah Volume 4 page 134 under the letter "Ayn". We assert that Imam 'Ali named his son Umar after this great faithful commander. We are fully aware that the Nasibi will advance some Sunni text claiming that Imam 'Ali named his son Umar after the second khalifa - but an Ahl'ul Sunnah work can not be advanced as evidence to convince us.

When a name becomes common in a society then it is common sense that it is not on account of love a specific individual. Zayd for example was a common name amongst the Arabs, but there is no basis to claim that people were named this after a specific Zayd. Similarly the names Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were very common Arab names, when the forefathers of the three khalifas were also called Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman could the sunnis explain on account of the love for which individuals were their names kept?
There is no proof from the Qur'an or hadith that naming a child can only be based on account of love for a specific individual. If Imam 'Ali 's naming his sons Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman was due to his love for the three Khalifa's then by the same token then Rasulullah (s) must have hated Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, since he (s) did not name a single son after these three personalities. If these three were indeed his most beloved companions why did he not name a single son after them?


why did 5 out of 12 imams did the same thing (name their children abu bakr , umar , usman , ayesha..)

has been answered in the first question for umar, abu bakr and usman. Now for Aisha:

In the video it says Imam Jaffar Sadiq and Imam Musa al-Kazim have named one of their daughters Aisha.
However, according to shia school of thought, the wife of the Prophet Muhammad , Ayesha, went astray and her actions depicted her hatred for Ahl-ul-Bait. This is why shias are not recommended to name their children Ayesha, in reference to the wife of the Prophet. Because naming our children Ayesha, in reference to or in love of the Prophet's wife, is equivalent to associating with opponents of Ahl-ul-Bait.
I would like to present some examples; none of them state that any of the Imams had daughters named Ayesha.


Example 1: Daughters of Imam Zain Al Abideen

The well-known daughters of Imam Zain Al Abideen are Khadija, Fatima, Alehe and Umme Kulsum.

....None named Ayesha.


Source:

- Sawaeq e Muharaqa P:120
- Arj ul Matalib P:444
- (I)Arshad P: 401


Example 2: Daughters of Imam Musa Kazim

Historians state that Imam Musa Kazim had 19 sons and 18 daughters from various wives. None of the daughter's are named Ayesha. Their names are as follows:

- Fatima Kubra
- Fatima Sughra
- Aliima
- Ruqayyah Sughra
- Kulsum
- Umm e Jafar
- Labaaba
- Zainab
- Khadija
- Aliya
- Amina
- Hasnaa
- Bareeha
- Umm e Salma
- Memuna
- Umm e Kulsum
- Umme Abiiha ( according to some it was Umm e Abdallah )
-Umme Asma'

....none named Ayesha


Sources:

- (I)Arshad P: 330
- Kashf ul Ghamma P: 109
- A'lam Alwary P: 181


Example 3: Daughters of Imam Jafar Sadiq

The three daughters were:

- Umm e Farwa
- Asma'
- Fatima

......none named Ayesha


Sources:

- Nur al Absaar P:133

why did the imams accept their daughters ?

That's very new to me, never heard such a thing.

why did they gave their daughters to them ? (ex - umm khulthum to umar)
-Please watch this video by Sayed Ammar Nakhshwani
---- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------- - - -------------------- - - - ---------

also ,

why didnt imam ali(as) change the biddah introduced by the 1st three (taraweeh , banning mutah......)
If one analyses Islamic history objectively, to ascertain who is responsible for introducing "Evil Innovations" into the Deen, then the name Umar Ibne Al-Khattab comes to the top of the list. His contributions via "Evil Innovations" are immense. Let us quote here the viewpoint of Maulla Ali(as) regarding these Bidahs of Umar.
Hizb at Tahir states:
"Khilafah" by Hizb at-Tahrir we read the following:
"... As for the appointment of the six people by 'Umar, it was a nomination to them by him upon the request of the Muslims. Then 'Abdul Rahman ibn 'Auf consulted the Muslims about whom they wanted from the six people. The majority wanted 'Ali if he adhered to the practices of Abu Bakr and 'Umar, otherwise they wanted 'Uthman. When 'Ali rejected to adhere to the practices (/Sunnah/Bidah) of Abu Bakr and 'Umar, 'Abdul Rahman ibn 'Auf gave the pledge to 'Uthman and the people gave their pledge”
More Sunni References:

• al Bidayah wa al Nihaya Volume 7 page 146
  
• Sharh Fiqh Akbar page 66 "Fadail Naas badh ai Rasulullah"
  
• Iqd al Fareed Volume 2 page 213
  
• Tareekh Abu Fida Volume 1 page 166 Dhikr Maqaathil Umar
  
• Tareekh Khamees Volume 2 page 255
  
• Tareekh Tabari Volume 5 page 2793 Dhikr Sunnat Chapter 23
  
• Tareekh Kamil Volume 3 page 35 Dhikr Shura

Can anyone really understand this concept of khilafaath? It was so important that:

• The Sheikhain ran towards Saqifa, abandoning the funeral of Rasulullah (s).
  
• The Sahaba whilst debating over the khilafath at Saqifa Bani Sa'ada abused and attacked one another
  
• Abu Bakr sought to secure Imam 'Ali(as)'s bayya via duress and Umar threatened to set on fire the home of Sayyida Fatima(sa) with her family and eminent Sahaba inside if bayyah was not given.

Despite such importance, Imam 'Ali(as) turned his back on leadership as he refused to abide by the Bidah of Umar. Let's see some of the Evil Innovations of Umar, so that we can understand why Maulla Ali(as) rejected the Caliphate as he refused to be bound by such innovations.
Umar's innovation of initiating the Tarawih Prayer

Before going further, let's make some facts clear. People often confuse three different prayers. Namely:

1) Tahajjud (also called Salat al-Lail, Namaz e Shab): The time of this prayer is from mid-night till before dawn. But the best time is near before Dawn (i.e. before the time of morning prayer). TAHAJJUD is offered all arround the year.

2) Nafl (Non-Compulsory prayers): These are offered without congregation (Jama'at) Individually. The more time one spends in Nawafil, Non-Compulsory prayers, and recitation of Qur'an etc in Ramadhan nights the better. Such prayers can also be performed throughout the year.

3) Tarawih Offered in congregation (Jama'at) during Ramadhan. Usually starts after Isha prayers.
Tarawih is a bidah in the following sense

• Rasool Allah never offered any such (20 or 8 rakah) prayers after Isha prayer. What he offered (and people joined behind him for 3 nights) was night prayer (i.e. Tahajjud prayer which is offered after midnight). So, what is known as Tarawih nowadays (i.e. 20 or 8 rakat prayer after Isha prayer), had never been a Sunnah of Rasool Allah [saww].
  
• Tarawih is not in harmony with the principles of Islam. Rasool Allah [saww] gave clear
  orders that NON COMPULSORY CONGREGATIONAL PRAYERS should be offered individually in the homes. But contrary to the orders of Rasool Allah [saww] Umar collected the people in mosque, and started offering non-compulsory congregational prayer in congregation.

Prophet[saww] got angry with the people who insisted on him offering Tarawih prayers (in congregation)


Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Allah's Apostle made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). Allah's Apostle came out (of his house) and prayed in it. Some men came and joined him in his prayer. Then again the next night they came for the prayer, but Allah's Apostle delayed and did not come out to them. So they raised their voices and knocked the door with small stones (to draw his attention). He came out to them in a state of ANGER, saying, "You are still insisting (on your deed, i.e. Tarawih prayer in the mosque) that I thought that this prayer (Tarawih) might become obligatory on you. So you people, offer this prayer at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 134
Prophet[SAWW] ordered his adherents to offer non-compulsory Prayers at home


Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
The Prophet took a room made of date palm leaves mats in the mosque. Allah's Apostle prayed in it for a few nights till the people gathered (to pray the night prayer (Tarawih) (behind him.) Then on the 4th night the people did not hear his voice and they thought he had slept, so some of them started humming in order that he might come out. The Prophet then said, "You continued doing what I saw you doing till I was afraid that this (Tarawih prayer) might be enjoined on you, and if it were enjoined on you, you would not continue performing it. Therefore, O people! Perform your prayers at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is what is performed at his home except the compulsory congregational prayer."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 393
The people would pray individually (not like in Tarawih) during Prophet[saww]'s time


Narrated 'Urwa:
That he was informed by 'Aisha, "Allah's Apostle went out in the middle of the night and prayed in the mosque and some men prayed behind him. In the morning, the people spoke about it and then a large number of them gathered and prayed behind him (on the second night). In the next morning the people again talked about it and on the third night the mosque was full with a large number of people. Allah's Apostle came out and the people prayed behind him. On the fourth night the Mosque was overwhelmed with people and could not accommodate them, but the Prophet came out (only) for the Morning Prayer. When the Morning Prayer was finished he recited Tashah-hud and (addressing the people) said, "Amma ba'du, your presence was not hidden from me but I was afraid lest the night prayer (Qiyam) should be enjoined on you and you might not be able to carry it on." So, Allah's Apostle died and the situation remained like that (i.e. people prayed individually). "
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 32, Number 229
Umar initiated Tarawih


Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven." Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, "Allah's Apostle died and the people continued observing that (i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate." 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, "I went out in the company of 'Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, 'in my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka'b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, 'what an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.' He meant the prayer in the last part of the night(Tahajjut). (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 32, Number 227

Are there any Ahadith in which Prophet [saww] encouraged Tarawih? No, there is not even a single hadith to this effect.
What did the Prophet[saww] say about his orders


Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Leave me as I leave you) for the people who were before you were ruined because of their questions and their differences over their prophets. So, if I forbid you to do something, then keep away from it. And if I order you to do something, then do of it as much as you can."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 391

did umar read the nikah of imam hussain(as) with the mother of imam zainul abideen(as) ?
Shahr banu (or Shahr banoo), was the eldest daughter of Yazdegerd III, the last Emperor of Sassanid Persia.
After the defeat of her father Yazdegerd III, she was taken captive by the invading Arab armies and sent to Medina where she was married to Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson of Muhammad, and Shia's third saint. She would give birth to one son with Husayn, Ali Zayn al Abidin, and would die shortly after his birth.



The following is a recount of how this happened. However it must be emphasized that the tone and language is from a Shia perspective:


When returning to Madinah from their decisive victorious battle against Persia, Omar's army brought with them many prisoners. Many of them were women. Among the prisoners captured at Mada'en were members of the Persian royal family, including the princess. People flocked in masses to see the captured daughter of the fallen mythical King of Persia.


Omar the caliph soon arrived and demanded the daughter of the King of Persia to be shown to him. The soldiers brought her to Omar. Omar then approached her and reached out to lift her veil to see the woman. The princess pulled herself back and cried out in Persian : "The face of Hormoz darkens from indignity!" ("Vay! Rooye Hormoz siyaah shod!")
Omar, thinking that the princess had offended him, angrily shouted: "This woman insults me!" and decided to kill her. Ali suddenly interrupted him and said: "You do not know her language. She called on her ancestor, and did not insult you."


Omar then announced that he who paid the most will have her as a slave. But Ali again interrupted and said: "You do not have that right!" The crowd fell silent under Ali's aura. Ali then asked the princess: "Do you wish me to find you a husband?" The princess did not reply. Trying to prevent the auction from taking place, Ali said: "Her silence is a sign of approval." Facing Omar, Ali continued: "Why don't we let HER choose a person from amongst this crowd as a husband, and we will pay for her dowry from the public treasury?" Omar agreed.


Scanning through the crowd around her, the princess suddenly stopped and froze as her eyes fell on a man amongst the crowd. "I have seen this man in a dream before" she said. Tracing her look, the entire crowd turned around and looked at Husayn, son of Ali. Ali went up to Husayn and said: "Hosayn! From this girl, the most noble of humans shall be born."
Ali, then came up to the princess and asked: "What is your name?" The princess replied: "The daughter of Jahan-shah". Ali said: "and so Shahr-banuyeh you will be called" ("the bride of the land").
The sources used for writing the passage are:

"Aldarajat ol Rafi'" p215.
"Mo'jem ol Baladan" Vol 2 p196.
"Nahj ol Balagheh" letter 45.
"Nahj ol Balagheh" Sobhi Saleh sermon 209.
"Nafs Al-Rahman" p139.
"Managhib ebne shahr ashub" Vol 4, p48.
"Iranian dar Qoran va revayat." Seyed Noureddin Abtahi. Chapter 3.
From this marriage, Ali Zayn al Abidin, Shia's fourth Imam was born in 658. She died shortly after, and has a shrine in Rey, south of Tehran, Iran
As you can see the nikah must have been taken place in umar castle and imam ali was present there, so I don’t think that umar read Imam Al-Husseins and Shar Banu’s nikah at all. Nor have I heard such a thing anywhere and if you think you have a hadith claiming this and please post it.

if that is true and also umar is a munafeeq or not muslim or hypocrit - then is that nikah valid???
Please refute to the above answer

did the attack on the house of bibi fatima(as) really take place ??
if so then why didnt imam ali(as) stop it or kill umar ??
how authentic is the narration that imam didnt react bcoz prophet ordered him not to ?
and why did the prophet tell that way - when he says oppression is worst - dont oppress also dont be oppressed???

Varun I know you know the answers for these questions yourself, so I am going to stop answering your questions. As you know there are plenty of hadith stating what has happened to Hazarath Fatima(as) , but I anyways my point is that look yourself for the truth when your heart agrees with it then know that this is the truth. If you look too much into sunni videos the more confused you are going to get, it’s the same for sunni peoples when they look into shia materials (such a videos). The best advice I can give you is, don’t rely on some scholars talk only. Go and do your own research. Because on the day of Judgement when Allah (swt) asks you why you became shia. What are going to answer then, you can’t simply say that because scholar x, y or z said so. The best thing is that maybe take up courses on hadith science, in that way you learn how to grade hadith and it will be easier for to see which hadith is fabricated, weak or strong.

May Allah (swt) always guide us all

[soloman]

fahimah18, on 01 May 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

please respond

The following is a recount of how this happened. However it must be emphasized that the tone and language is from a Shia perspective:

I hope you know that 95% of your article is a Shia perspective.

All speculation ,your version, giving your meanings to why Imam Ali a.s  did certain things. Continuing to trap your youngones in lies.

Your people continuing to believe in the fabrications of past Siah.

[Philip]

singham, on 01 May 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

but there there were also great yazeeds so according to ur logic  why any of ur imams after the martyrdom of imam hussain named their son after those good yazeeds e.g two died in the battle of karbala.

i don't understand your question.

those three kids were born from the wives who married hazrat ali after the death of hazrat fatima .

in that case another explanation must be the case, such as the one that they are named after other omar, abu bakrs and uthmans .. or another reason that i'm not aware of ..

their intention in  naming  their children  was to dissociate themselves from ghulat and rafidhi shias.

that's your opinion ..

http://www.revivinga...mm-kulthum.html

singham, on 01 May 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

is the hadith of burning the door of fatima found in the books of other shia sects such as zaidia? i have heard that early zaidi shiites accepted the imamate of hazrat abu bakar and hazrat umar(ra) and this clearly indicate that this hadith was not present in their books.

like gypsy said .. you better check that one with the zaydis ..

[MysticKnight]

With naming after evil people, there is two possible stances:

1) No one should name their kids with a name of an evil person.
2) One should not care whether an evil person has the name of that person.

Which stance do you think is correct?

I definitely think number 2 is correct.

This is aweak argument.

[Philip]

soloman, on 01 May 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

I hope you know that 95% of your article is a Shia perspective.

All speculation ,your version, giving your meanings to why Imam Ali a.s  did certain things. Continuing to trap your youngones in lies.

Your people continuing to believe in the fabrications of past Siah.

Shia of Ali perspective .. everybody believes their own perpective..



all this talk is pointless actually ..


everybody agrees that Fatimah lived and passed away angry with them,

everybody agrees that the ummah was snatched without ahl bayt & ansar consent ..

everybody knows that omar and aisha disobeyed the prophet

everybody knows that aisha went to war against ali and his shia ..


what else do people need to understand that these people are traitors ??



and then they get surprised that there are more juicy and elaborate stories than the ummayids say .. after killing the family of the prophet ..


crazy .. the only explanation is have is that the people who don't get it must be coming from families where people misbehaving is very normal .. lying, stealing, killing and stuff .. must be no problem among their families or something ..

personally for me it's more than enough to know that sayida fatimah passed away in a state of anger .. to dismiss them as losers


it was enough for me when i found out that omar disobeyed the prophet in getting pen and paper .. and arguing with prophet telling him they don't need his input as the quran is enough ..

that was for me the turning point of hatred towards omar and all the rest of dunya loving traitors ..

the rest was of no surprise to me .. but it's a mystery to me how sunis who are aware of these things accept this !  


i just don't get it ..

[soloman]

Philip, on 01 May 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Shia of Ali perspective .. everybody believes their own perpective..

The perspective you hold must certainly be able to stand the test of scrutiny.If it' can't you must expose the rat within .(with all due respect)

Philip, on 01 May 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

everybody agrees that Fatimah lived and passed away angry with them,
everybody agrees that the ummah was snatched without ahl bayt & ansar consent ..
everybody knows that omar and aisha disobeyed the prophet
everybody knows that aisha went to war against ali and his shia ..

I cannot defend any of the above and I certainly cannot be held accountable on The Day of Judgement for things I'm not responsible for.

This is what I do know, whoever did wrong will be punished. No use jumping on the bandwagon and point fingers - you not scoring any points.

So, if you quote the above to a Sunni - I bet he will refute your claims with his perspective - are you forever going to rub heads - rather seek mutual ground.

Certainly Aishah a.s brought satisfaction to the Prophet(pbuh) .For that alone we need to respect her.

The quotes above are reported incidents and can certainly be manipulated to any one point. It is not a Quranic revelation, why treat it as such.

Only Allah the most high knows why things happened as quoted above and for what reason.

Philip, on 01 May 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

and then they get surprised that there are more juicy and elaborate stories than the ummayids say .. after killing the family of the prophet ..

Personally I reject anybody who breaks the Will of Allah the most high.

I also hold that the Ummayads, Abbasids and co did wrong to the family members of the Prophet(pbuh) For this reason Allah the most high will punish them.

But you people go-on rambling that you have this supernatural love for the Prophet and his Family. Let me tell you this, It is not the case.

You can never love the Family of the Prophet more than I do.

Your whole doctrine is a fabrication of some other doctrine that preceded it.

You call yourself Shia but the term Shia is not even a proper discription of who you are. It has a much broader meaning and involves other people as well.

Let me just leave you with one Quranic Verse :Surah 3 , Verse 42 ( Al-i-Ímran)

Behold! the Angels said:" O Mary Allah has chosen thee and purified thee-chosen thee above all woman of all nations."

Now that was a Quranic Verse ,not a report .

I hope you get it.

[Ismahan007]

Salaaam brother Varun,

I haven't read the whole thread but the discussion seems very interesting. so you're having some doubts about your faith recently and you need help? I don't have references at hand now but will try to answer some of your questions. I can look up and try to find ref if you still require them tho


why did imam ali name his sons abu bakr , uamr , usman
Abubaker (la) and Omar (la) were never the only ones with these names. you should know that these names were pretty common in Arabia way b4 even this two existed. even if we agree for the sake of argument that Imam Ali named his sons with these names, what is the proof that he named them after their 1st and 2nd false caliphs? whats the proof that those sons were named after their abubaker or omar? and how does that make those two tagut innocent of their crimes that they committed against Ahlulbayt a.s and Muslims? their crimes were recorded in history for anyone to make up anything and cover up for them. they were criminals who done so many ugly things. you should also know that enemies of Ahlulbayt have tried so hard to raise the statuses of these two men to make them look even greater than Amerul-mumineen (a.s) to make the people still believe in their false khilafate.


why did they gave their daughters to them ? (ex - umm khulthum to umar)

these incident has never took place in history. Omar was a disbeliever in Allah and in his prophet. and imam Ali has made this clear in his ahadith and sermons. there was no way Imam Ali would have allowed any marriage between Omar and any of his daughters. enemies of Ahlulbayt came up with this disgusting idea that Umm Kulthum (daughter of imam Ali) was at one point married to Omar Astakhfirullah. this claim has no basis in our school. as per the ahadith from our blessed imams, this is a made up story and is an insult to the Imam himself.

why didnt imam ali change the biddah introduced by the 1st three (taraweeh , banning mutah......)
who told you that Imam Ali didn't try to change those innovations? history tells us that when imam Ali tried to change these biddas that was brought up by Omar, the ppl of madina cried out 'waa sunat 3umara' ( oh the sunnah of omar has been changed!). as if it was the book of Allah that was changed. so our Imam left them with their bidda cos they refused to listen. the duty of any imam is to establish hujja upon the ppl, once that's done his job is done. so that's a useless argument.

did umar read the nikah of imam hussain with the mother of imam zainul abideen ?  
if that is true and also umar is a munafeeq or not muslim or hypocrit - then is that nikah valid???  

I have never heard of this funny story b4, but in our school we believe that imam Hussain (a.s) was an infallible imam, how can a fallible man (that's if we forgot about omar's crimes and said was a mumeen) can read/do the nikah for an infallible imam? does that make any sense? plus evidences for omar's hypocrisy and disbelief's are way too many to count even in the books of those who love and support him to death. they can't hide it, its too clear for the one who wants to see.

did the attack on the house of bibi fatima really take place ??if so then why didnt imam ali stop it or kill umar ??

first of all, may Allah never make us among those ppl who deny the tragedies of sayeda fatima, Ameen. 2nd, yes this incident has indeed took place in history. too many proofs and Ahadith from Ahlulbayt to support this belief. how else we could explain her sudden death and the absence of those two from her funeral? why the majority of the so called 'sahaba' didn't turn up at the time of the burial? why all the secrecy following this incident? what about the hidden grave until today, so and so on... can we ignore and turn blind eye to all of this and act like nothing has happened to fatima a.s? you should clearly understand that the majority of this umma were on the wrong side. they supported omar (la) and his way. he was like a prophet send by god for them. so any movement from imam Ali could have been the end to this beautiful religion. Imam Ali did not fight them to preserve Islam. just like people of moses betrayed him and his msg when he went to the mountain of saina, and were about to kill his brother Harun whom he left as a wasi... this same incident happened to imam Ali. they even tried to kill him many times but were unsuccessful, Thank God.
------------------------------------

now, I watched the first 5 minutes of the video, you've posted. It's not allowing me to play the rest, don't know why. anyways, I believe these 'scholars' are the most ignorant among the creatures of God. they often have the mind of shaytaan and have no idea what they chat about. just an obsession with the so called 'sahaba' for no valid reason. this has blinded their eyes and have no basera (insight), they can see nothing else. may Allah show them the way if they don't know. you have to forget about them and sit alone and think to re examine yourself and your beliefs and set them in the right order. you really need to do that. if a couple of historical questions that has nothing to do with aqaed can bring doubts to ur heart, you have a serious problem that you need to figure out the cause. ask yourself why you have 'believed' in 'imamate/khilafate' of imam Ali at the first place? did you believe in imamate b'cos you have studied 'islamic history' and you have found that Abubaker and Omar were wrong and Ali seemed the right one for you? you should always keep in mind that shias follow imam Ali not b'cos they have found abubaker or omar bad ppl but b'cos it was a direct command from the heaven (Allah swt) to believe in him and support him.. we do not follow imam ali or any of our imams b'cos we have found Abubaker and Omar to be wrong, even if we agree for the sake of argument that, they were the best of ppl after the prophet as they claim, and have done no wrong to Ahlulbayt in any way still the question remains, who made them imams over the ummah? who gave them the right to call themselves 'the successors of the holy prophet' when he in fact has chosen none of them? what proof they have that allowed them sit on the membar (pulpit)of the prophet and pretend to call for islam, whats the proofs for all these absurd claim and so on... this is our main problem with their 'sahaba'... our main problem is not them snatching away fadak, killing sayeda fatima, battle of jamal or banning muta e.t.c as they try hard to show the case is. once you ask these questions, you will find the right answers. don't throw ur mind over pity things when you have problem in this area.

P.S I highly recommend you to regularly recite ziaret al-jamia al-kabera, to study it and reflect on it meanings. It has helped me a lot in the past to further understand Ahlulbayt, their status and knowledge, inshaAllah it will help you now.  if you're not familiar with it, I've put the link below,, it has English text too.

If you have any question, do not fear to ask anyone here. as a convert you may have questions or some things that could raise doubts to you. I think you were brave to ask these questions. and I really hope you've got ur answers.

http://www.ziaraat.o...amia_kabeer.php

Edited by Ismahan007, 01 May 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Philip]

soloman, on 01 May 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I cannot defend any of the above and I certainly cannot be held accountable on The Day of Judgement for things I'm not responsible for.

So, if you quote the above to a Sunni - I bet he will refute your claims with his perspective - are you forever going to rub heads - rather seek mutual ground.

Certainly Aishah a.s brought satisfaction to the Prophet(pbuh) .For that alone we need to respect her.



Your whole doctrine is a fabrication of some other doctrine that preceded it.

if you can't defend the ahl bayt then you certainly don't love them

and for your info the sunis can't refute what i said .. i only said the things that are even in bukhary and muslim ..

so it seems you don't know what you are talking about .. unless you want to throw all ahadeeth in the garbage ... all of them ..

we don't need to respect a woman who went far astray and let thousands of muslims get killed .. and she went to war against the father of ahl bayt sayidna Ali .. so i don't understand how you can claim to be a lover of ahl bayt and still refer to this lying woman as good ..

it's your choice ..

and if you're here to bash the shia doctrine then i suggest you leave this forum, because there is no point for you being here then .. this is shiachat .. and let's wait will judgment day and see .. ppl wont change because you come along and talk about things you don't know

[soloman]

Philip, on 02 May 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

if you can't defend the ahl bayt then you certainly don't love them

and for your info the sunis can't refute what i said .. i only said the things that are even in bukhary and muslim ..

so it seems you don't know what you are talking about .. unless you want to throw all ahadeeth in the garbage ... all of them ..

we don't need to respect a woman who went far astray and let thousands of muslims get killed .. and she went to war against the father of ahl bayt sayidna Ali .. so i don't understand how you can claim to be a lover of ahl bayt and still refer to this lying woman as good ..

it's your choice ..

and if you're here to bash the shia doctrine then i suggest you leave this forum, because there is no point for you being here then .. this is shiachat .. and let's wait will judgment day and see .. ppl wont change because you come along and talk about things you don't know

It depends what you mean by defending -I guest in your case it is criticizing the close members that circled the Prophet. This is how you bring your
case and prove your love for the Imam.

In my view, if you continue to criticize the close relations to the Prophet then you actually portray Him in a bad light.

You are actually suggesting that the Prophet had poor judgement. Making friends with people who was bent on destroying his family.

But I  respect your view of rejection based on the reports you have.

Certainly much ahadeeth is corrupt fabrications on both sides and should be trashed.

After the war the Imam treated this woman as you put it ,with utmost respect. I never said this woman as you said was good or bad, I merely suggested
you show respect to her for bringing satisfaction to our Prophet(pbuh)

I guest in the end it depends who you hold in Higher esteem The Prophet(pbuh) or Imam Ali a.s.

I'm also not here to bash your doctrine , that's not my nature.

It is just that this whole concept of occultation  seems to be a fabrication by Shia of old ,to cover -up something that did not materialize.

Your 12th Imam did not go into hiding - There is no proof that he was ever born. To make there case not die-out the your Shia of old

fabricated ahahadith and the concept of occultation.

Historically speaking your 12th Imamate concept is the 5th one. Presently there is actually 5 Imams in occultation according to history.

Why should any of those be wrong - all claim it to be in the Unseen. It's illogical.

I can prove all the statements I make and I can name these Imams if so desire - otherwise I suggest you do some research by your self.

[Philip]

soloman, on 02 May 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

It depends what you mean by defending -I guest in your case it is criticizing the close members that circled the Prophet. This is how you bring your
case and prove your love for the Imam.

In my view, if you continue to criticize the close relations to the Prophet then you actually portray Him in a bad light.

You are actually suggesting that the Prophet had poor judgement. Making friends with people who was bent on destroying his family.

But I  respect your view of rejection based on the reports you have.

Certainly much ahadeeth is corrupt fabrications on both sides and should be trashed.

After the war the Imam treated this woman as you put it ,with utmost respect. I never said this woman as you said was good or bad, I merely suggested
you show respect to her for bringing satisfaction to our Prophet(pbuh)

I guest in the end it depends who you hold in Higher esteem The Prophet(pbuh) or Imam Ali a.s.

I'm also not here to bash your doctrine , that's not my nature.

It is just that this whole concept of occultation  seems to be a fabrication by Shia of old ,to cover -up something that did not materialize.

Your 12th Imam did not go into hiding - There is no proof that he was ever born. To make there case not die-out the your Shia of old

fabricated ahahadith and the concept of occultation.

Historically speaking your 12th Imamate concept is the 5th one. Presently there is actually 5 Imams in occultation according to history.

Why should any of those be wrong - all claim it to be in the Unseen. It's illogical.

I can prove all the statements I make and I can name these Imams if so desire - otherwise I suggest you do some research by your self.

Ok many different topics you're opening up here. Maybe you can discuss it in research into other sects section .. Because Suni and Shia agree there are 12 Islamic leaders .. and they agree there's am ahl bayt Mahdi coming round.

If we have ahadeeth that are common betw both sects I don't think it's right to come and claim they are false ..

Anyway, I suggest you discuss in other sections because you aren't a knowledgeable Suni nor Shia ..

And concerning Aisha being treated respectfully by Ali , it's because unlike her he's not a war mongering fitna spreading, lying, jealous, disrespectful person .. Women are spared in Islamic warfare, and Sayidna Ali let everybody go in respect from that army that killed his followers .. It was the first fitna .. Unacceptable & Sayidna Alis generous actions don't make the purpetrators more innocent .. But more guilty because they look even more ridiculous .. And Sayidna Ali thinks for the good of islam while knowing the avenger / revenger is coming further down his blood line. Allah loves his patient slaves.

Good luck in you journey

Edited by Philip, 02 May 2012 - 06:03 AM.

[Ibrahim786]

subhanallah what a great video and a great talk from this scholar. how can there have been hatred betweeen the ahlulbayt and the 3 khulafa rashideen

[soloman]

Philip, on 02 May 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Ok many different topics you're opening up here. Maybe you can discuss it in research into other sects section .. Because Suni and Shia agree there are 12 Islamic leaders .. and they agree there's am ahl bayt Mahdi coming round.

If we have ahadeeth that are common betw both sects I don't think it's right to come and claim they are false ..

Anyway, I suggest you discuss in other sections because you aren't a knowledgeable Suni nor Shia ..

And concerning Aisha being treated respectfully by Ali , it's because unlike her he's not a war mongering fitna spreading, lying, jealous, disrespectful person .. Women are spared in Islamic warfare, and Sayidna Ali let everybody go in respect from that army that killed his followers .. It was the first fitna .. Unacceptable & Sayidna Alis generous actions don't make the purpetrators more innocent .. But more guilty because they look even more ridiculous .. And Sayidna Ali thinks for the good of islam while knowing the avenger / revenger is coming further down his blood line. Allah loves his patient slaves.

Good luck in you journey

Whatever , I can just visualize  the expression on your face as you curse this lady - spit and all ,flying all over you computer.

If you say the Imam was generous in his action to this lady, then why don't you be an outstanding follower and practice the same philosophy.

Otherwise, you will be just another hypocrite defending his perspective.

It's as simple as that.

[Philip]

soloman, on 02 May 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Whatever , I can just visualize  the expression on your face as you curse this lady - spit and all ,flying all over you computer.

If you say the Imam was generous in his action to this lady, then why don't you be an outstanding follower and practice the same philosophy.

Otherwise, you will be just another hypocrite defending his perspective.

It's as simple as that.

I see the shaytan controls your visualizations .. As they are totally wrong ..

I never got the chance to deal with Aisha myself and all that's happening here is talk .. So compare my talk with Sayidna Alis talk if you want (and/ or his Shia) , but not realistic comparing our actions ..

Your opinion is it's ok to kill Muslims and go to war against ahl bayt and his Shia .. I wonder how dark your soul is

[fahimah18]

soloman, on 01 May 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

I hope you know that 95% of your article is a Shia perspective.

All speculation ,your version, giving your meanings to why Imam Ali a.s  did certain things. Continuing to trap your youngones in lies.

Your people continuing to believe in the fabrications of past Siah.

Instead of telling me that shia books are right or wrong, try and bring some hadith that disagrees with what i have posted. And we will see the grading of the hadith you have posted. It really is intresting that majority of sunnis disagree on something that shias say but they don't bring any hadith support their idea.

[soloman]

fahimah18, on 02 May 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Instead of telling me that shia books are right or wrong, try and bring some hadith that disagrees with what i have posted. And we will see the grading of the hadith you have posted. It really is interesting that majority of sunnis disagree on something that shias say but they don't bring any hadith support their idea.

No use quoting a hadith and then it gets bashed - it's pointless. From a Shia perspective your explanation seems plausible but you must accept
that the reasons you give ,why the IMAM and his descendants gave the names of Abu'Bakr, Umar, Uthmaan and Ayeshah to their children is
based on your reasoning of what the Imams intentions were.

By the same token you must also accept that the video posted also suggest that the behavior of the Imams by naming their children Abu'Bakr,
Umar,Uthman and Ayeshah creates a sense that these Imams did'nt dislike ,hate or slander these personalities as we find today.

Whatever the real reasons are why the Imams named their children as such we'll never know their real intentions.

We must also be mindful that love for the holy family only stemmed from love for the Prophet(pbuh).

In my view the repsect and interest of the Prophet supercedes everything else.

So if we find a certain wife of the Prophet being slandered  by people we must reject this and defend His image out of love for Him.

Certainly we'll be playing in the hands of shaytaan if we degrade those whom the Prophet loved.

Don't you think?

[alshemary]

soloman, on 01 May 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

I hope you know that 95% of your article is a Shia perspective.

All speculation ,your version, giving your meanings to why Imam Ali a.s  did certain things. Continuing to trap your youngones in lies.

Your people continuing to believe in the fabrications of past Siah.

where are the lies? you are the one claiming the narrations he gave from YOUR books are lies without providing any details of it. He provided the shia texts for the shia brother because thats what we believe in..  I think we can all say the same to you moron.

Edited by alshemary, 04 May 2012 - 12:54 AM.

[soloman]

alshemary, on 04 May 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

. He provided the shia texts for the shia brother because thats what we believe in..

Look all this Shia business is new to me.

What I can deduce then is that you hold Imam Ali in higher esteem than the Prophet of Allah the most high.

[alshemary]

soloman, on 04 May 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

Look all this Shia business is new to me.

What I can deduce then is that you hold Imam Ali in higher esteem than the Prophet of Allah the most high.

that is due to your ignorance not our context.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

bro vigilare asked my view on Shia Ahadees,on Bibi Kulsoom(as)'s nikah.FIRST of all,most of our ulema refute it,there r hardly some,who don't.And in every age there r saleable ulema,and some who added such stuff smwhere.But all our leading ulema vehemently reject this idea.As such a man could never be compatible to Daughter of Fatima(as)so there can be no possibilty,it's blasphemous to think this way.these were same men who asked Holy Prophet(saww)for His daughter,not only He did decline that,but got infuriated on this act of disrespect.His Face turned red with anger.So how could IMAM ALI(AS)break His Sunnah.that is unconceivable idea.