86 replies to this topic

[No body]

Aarash_Australia, on 28 April 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Arguing Faith from Reason is like trying to argue for the foundations of mathematics or morality or art from Reason.


The application of reason to these fields is of course enormously beneficial, but you cannot argue, for example, from any particular reason, why 2 + 2 = 4. Or why beauty is preferable to ugliness. Or why it is wrong to torture someone just for the fun of it.



Therefore I think some of the threads in this section are misguided - ontological arguments, cosmological arguments, arguments about necessity and First Cause..... these are all interesting exercises, but they are ultimately exercises in futility.



Faith is belief. It is hope. Brought about by the intuition that all this cannot be meaningless....

iblees used reasoning when he was asked to bow down to adam and he was cast out of heaven ( so its said)
Godel proved thru formal mathematics that there are certain truths within a system which cannot be proved....so thats the extent of reasoning alone
I think when one completely exhausts their reasoning what they are left with is Faith, and that is true Faith when you have no reason left for it...and since you don't have any reasoning for it then its not acquired by you, but it comes from something that is beyond you.

[Incognito]

Quote

iblees used reasoning when he was asked to bow down to adam and he was cast out of heaven ( so its said)
Godel proved thru formal mathematics that there are certain truths within a system which cannot be proved....so thats the extent of reasoning alone
I think when one completely exhausts their reasoning what they are left with is Faith, and that is true Faith when you have no reason left for it...and since you don't have any reasoning for it then its not acquired by you, but it comes from something that is beyond you.

That is a good point.

It also shows why it is so difficult to say what faith is, and how we get faith. Talking about faith requires us to reason. But faith is beyond it, it is rather difficult to say what faith is.

[Quisant]

No body, on 10 June 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

I think when one completely exhausts their reasoning what they are left with is Faith, and that is true Faith when you have no reason left for it...and since you don't have any reasoning for it then its not acquired by you, but it comes from something that is beyond you.

We also have 'instinct' and 'intuition'.

What would you say the difference is between them?
How can you tell if you act on faith, instinct or intuition?

wslm.
*

[iDevonian]

Quisant, on 10 June 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

We also have 'instinct' and 'intuition'.

What would you say the difference is between them?
How can you tell if you act on faith, instinct or intuition?

wslm.
*

Ty Quisant, my thoughts exactly.

[MysticKnight]

A problem is that you are only resorting to your faith. Otherwise, since faith of a Hindu for example, or a Christian, is believed to be false by you, and not beyond reason but contrary to it, then you can't talk about faith in general. You would have to say your faith is different. But what exactly is about your faith that is different then theirs? Because the religion is true would not answer the question, for it doesn't establish how faith in your instance knows while faith in the other instances is delusional thinking.

[Incognito]

Instinct is a biological attribute. It is instinct for humans to cover their faces when a ball is thrown at it.

Intuition is different. It appears to be a method of 'knowing' something, or at least thinking it is known. But a lot of times, this can conflict with the rational, so intuition is not always correct.

Faith is not intuition. Faith should not contradict rationality. Faith is something which can be worked towards. Faith in God, lets say, can become stronger when one worships.

You cannot work towards increasing intuition towards something, once you try, it becomes rationality. Intuition is also concerned with the (seemingly) obvious facts. We intuitively know that the sun will rise tomorrow.

[fightingsoul001]

I think reasons and logic only point to certain direction but for reaching a destination you have to use faith at the end. Because we can't reach to the conclusion with logic alone.

[Pascal]

fightingsoul001, on 11 June 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

I think reasons and logic only point to certain direction but for reaching a destination you have to use faith at the end. Because we can't reach to the conclusion with logic alone.

I'm not sure if i've already mentioned it here but i actually think thats very true.

Just on an empirical sense, i dont literally know if God is or isn't there, i can't be 100% know. I don't think you can either (but you'd disagree). Obviously since i dont 100% know, there is some leap involved, i think everyone takes a leap. For me its more along the lines of which position you think has the best arguments, makes the most sense, reflects reality, is internally consistent, ect.

I agree we cant reach the conclusion with logic alone, indeed, we can't reach almost any conclusion with logic alone. Where i disagree is, i think we need empirical evidence and observations to truely reach the conclusion (Of course in regards to God we cant get that). You can read more about that kind of thing and what i think in the second post here. Just keep in mind that place is just a location to collect the various things i've written and they've been written for very different purposes for different audiences and reasons, so its all a bit disjoint.

I'm fully willing to admit i make the same leap of faith you do. Most reasonable people would i think.

[Quisant]

Incognito, on 11 June 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Instinct is a biological attribute. It is instinct for humans to cover their faces when a ball is thrown at it.

Intuition is different. It appears to be a method of 'knowing' something, or at least thinking it is known. But a lot of times, this can conflict with the rational, so intuition is not always correct.

Faith is not intuition. Faith should not contradict rationality. Faith is something which can be worked towards. Faith in God, lets say, can become stronger when one worships.

You cannot work towards increasing intuition towards something, once you try, it becomes rationality. Intuition is also concerned with the (seemingly) obvious facts. We intuitively know that the sun will rise tomorrow.

My very personal opinion is that Faith is inseparable from instinct, intuition and superstition.
We are very ignorant of whom we are and have little control over our thinking.

We each have about as much knowledge of what we are about to think next as we do of what someone else would think.
We are not the author of our own thoughts. That is, we don't pick our next thought.
We can't even decide to stop thinking. We can't choose to make no choices.

Because Faith is the substance of our hopes. Ever mobile.
It does confirm deep and essential human needs; it would be superficial not to admit it.

Believe it or not, it is possible for an atheist to have Faith, feel the Mystery, perceive sacrality and even thank the gods for a day of happiness.

But ultimately the flaw with Faith is that it is highly subjective, not transparent and it is not examinable.

wslm.
*

[No body]

Quisant, on 10 June 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

We also have 'instinct' and 'intuition'.

What would you say the difference is between them?
How can you tell if you act on faith, instinct or intuition?

wslm.
*

Salamalyk
Instinct and intuition are within reason, like Incognito said instinct is hardwired in us thru evolution, intuition ( precognition) is also purely intellectual as its about identifying patterns based on the empirical data that our brain has ( this “data” can be genetically transmitted too not just direct experience) faith/hope is programmed in us and is the condition that humans as a species have evolved intellectually, so this resultant faith cannot be objective

“How can you tell if you act on faith, instinct or intuition?”
it would be very difficult for anyone to say that they " act" on faith, one can only witness, we “react” based on our conditioning of instinct, intuition thru reason.

I think there is a saying of Maula Ali to the effect of
I have recognized Allah thru the breaking of my resolution

Incognito, on 10 June 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

That is a good point.

It also shows why it is so difficult to say what faith is, and how we get faith. Talking about faith requires us to reason. But faith is beyond it, it is rather difficult to say what faith is.

perhaps one can "know" Faith but cannot express it...reminds me of a few line

belief is
my fear..
my hope
the lack thereof..
I am faith
I am
unknown.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Quisant, on 11 June 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

But ultimately the flaw with Faith is that it is highly subjective, not transparent and it is not examinable.

That is a universal principle to every human. What ever a human belief is, it's subjective. Your own belief is your own faith. So you too are a faithful.

[Quisant]

Ya Aba 3abdillah, on 12 June 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

That is a universal principle to every human. What ever a human belief is, it's subjective. Your own belief is your own faith. So you too are a faithful.

Hello Ya Aba 3abdillah, nice to read you again ... and glad to know that we agree on something.

wslm.
*