34 replies to this topic

[Is'haaq ibn Ahmad]

Salam to you all brothers and sisters i am a Muslim and i am originally from south of yemen the northern coast of Somalia.
People like me who are from the northern coast belong to a Large Somali tribe Is'haaq , we believed that we are descendents and members of the Ahlul-Bayt.
The founder of this tribe passed away in 727/Hijra /1327. Sheikh Is'haaq ibn Ahmad  was a Arab scholar and was born in Madina and was raised Hadhramaut, his father was born in Madina al-Munwara, and his Grandfather Muhammad bin Hussein was born in Samara, Iraq.

Brothers and Sisters, i am not the best in Arabic, but this is text off an old book which has information on Sheikh Is'haaq's grandfather i think.
It'll be a great favour if you translate this:

Quote

äÓÈ ÇáÓÇÏÉ ÇáÇÓÍÇÞííä Çæ Èäæ ÇÓÍÇÞ

ÈÓã Çááå æ ÇáÕáÇÉ æ ÇáÓáÇã Úáì ÎÇÊã ÇáÇäÈíÇÁ .
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äÓÈ ÇáÓíÏ ÇÓÍÇÞ åæ.
ÇÓÍÇÞ Èä ÇÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÍÓíä Èä Úáí Èä ÇáãØåÑ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÇíæÈ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÞÇÓã Èä ÇÍãÏ Èä Úáí ä ÚíÓì Èä íÍíì Èä ãÍãÏ ÇáÊÞí Èä Úáí ÇáåÇÏí Èä ãÍãÏÇáÌæÇÏ Èä Úáí ÇáÑÖÇÈä ãæÓì ÇáßÇÙã Èä ÌÚÝÑ ÇáÕÇÏÞ Èä ãÍãÏÇáÈÇÞÑ Èä Úáí Òíä ÇáÚÇÈÏíä Èä ÇáÇãÇã ÇáÍÓíä Èä Úáí ÓÈØ ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã.


åÌÑÉ ÇáÓíÏ ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓíä ÌÏ ÇÓÍÇÞ Èä ÇÍãÏ :
ãä ÇáÚÑÇÞ Ýí ÓäÉ 498å æÝí ÚÕÑ ÇáÎáíÝå ÇáãÚÊãÏ ÈÇááå ÇáÚÈÇÓí åÇÌÑ ãä ãÏíäÉ ÓÑãä ÑÇÆ ÈÇáÚÑÇÞ ÑÍá åæ æ ÇÒæÇÌå æ ÇæáÇÏå æ ÇÍÝÇÏå Çáì ÇáãÏíäå ÇáãäæÑå áãÇ ÇÔÊÏÊ ÇáãÍä Úáíåã ÈÚÏ ÝÊäÉ ÇáãÚÊãÏ æ ÇÈä ÇáãÚÊÒ ÇáÚÈÇÓí æßÇä ÚÇÆÏÇð ÈÇááå Ëã ÈÌÏå ÑÓæá Çááå (Õ) Ëã ÓßäåÇ ÍÊì ÊæÝí ÝíåÇ æ ÏÝä ÝíåÇ ÓäÉ 505 åÌÑíÉ ÑÍãå Çááå

æ Ýí ÓäÉ506 ÊÝÑÞÊ ÇÓÑÊå áÇÓÈÇÈ ãÇÏíÉ ÝßÇäÊ ÑÍáÇÊåã ßÇáÇÊí:

The text is from a mansucript sealed in Yemen by the Ahlul Bayt over there.

almost eight centuries ago, Mohammed Hassan Al- Basri in a short biography written some times during his return to Damascus from the horn of Africa wrote about the journey of Sheikh Is'haaq from Mukha to Zayla, in his manuscript titled ' Al-Asjad Al-Mandum Li-Taariikh Wal-Uluum' presently housed in the Al-Dahiriya historical library of Demescus, Al-Basri detailed the life of Sheikh Is'haaq both in Yemen/Zayla and later Mait where he eventually settled with his tow wives and children and where presently his tomb is located.


This is where we live, persumably on the north and western coasts.






The ratios or the lineage of Sheikh Isaaq are as follows:

1. Isaaq

1. ÅÓÍÇÞ

2. bin Ahmed

2. Èä ÇÍãÏ

3. Bin Mohammed

3. Èä ãÍãÏ

4. Bin Hussien

4. Èä ÍÓíä

5. Bin Ali

5. Èä Úáí

6. Bin Mudhar

6. Èä ÇáãØåÑ

7. Bin Abdalla

7. Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå

8. Bin Ayup

8. Èä ÇíæÈ

9. Bin Mohammed

9. Èä ãÍãÏ

10. Bin Qasim

10. Èä ÞÇÓã

11. Bin Ahmed

11. Èä ÇÍãÏ

12. Bin Ali

12. Èä Úáí

13. Bin Eisa

13. Èä ÚíÓì

14. Bin Yahya

14. Èä íÍíì

15. Bin Mohammed Al Taqi

15. Èä ãÍãÏ ÇáÊÞí

16. Bin Ali Al Hadi

16. Èä Úáí ÇáåÇÏí

17. Bin Mohammed Al Jawad

17. Èä ãÍãÏÇáÌæÇÏ

18. Bin Ali Al Reda

18. Èä Úáí ÇáÑÖÇ

19. Bin Musa Al Kathim

19. ãæÓì ÇáßÇÙã

20. Bin Jafar Al Sadiq

20. Èä ÌÚÝÑ ÇáÕÇÏÞ

21. Bin Mohammed Al Baqir

21. Èä ãÍãÏÇáÈÇÞÑ

22. Bin Ali Zainal Al Abiden

22. Èä Úáí Òíä ÇáÚÇÈÏíä

23. Bin Imam Al Hussien

23. Èä ÇáÇãÇã ÇáÍÓíä

24. Bin Ali

24. Èä Úáì

25. Bin Abu Dalib

25. Èä ÃÈæØÇáÈ

26. Bin Abdulmuddalib

26. Èä ÚÈÏÇáãØáÈ

27. Bin Abdulmanaf

27. Èä ÚÈÏÇáãäÇÝ

28. Bin Hashim

28. Èä åÇÔã


Much of the muslim world does not know of this tribe or people, it is like they have been hidden Wallahi. Me personally i have seen the prophet in a dream, in the dream he was standing infront of me not saying anything it was very hard to remember. But i remember that before i slept i sent salawat on him and his wives family companions and all the prophets before him.

These are people who are in the Bani Isaaq family

[Ismahan007]

A'salaamu A'laikum brother,
when you say you're Isaa'q, what is your sub clan?


btw, I know couple of guys who are from your tribe. they could help you on your research about shia?

Edited by Ismahan007, 28 April 2012 - 02:51 PM.

[A true Sunni]

are you related to the individual who came on here a few years ago with the same lineage

[Ismahan007]

A true Sunni, on 28 April 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

are you related to the individual who came on here a few years ago with the same lineage

yes, they sound chatting about the same tribe for me. these tribe's thought to have descended from sheikh Isa'aaq (whom the poster gave brief intro) originally, the sheikh's thought to have direct lineage with our prophet and imams, but these tribe has been marrying (not very much but to some extent) other Somali tribes. so I'm kind of lost how they could be still be 'a direct decedents of the prophet'?

Edited by Ismahan007, 28 April 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[A true Sunni]

depends on the numbers and might just be an inner core who lost their identity due to dissimulation. I think they are 'forgotten shias'.

[Ismahan007]

^well, they're a lot in number,'one of the biggest tribes in whole of Somalia' if am not mistaken. they're the majority in Somaliland and the leadership thr is under them. but am talking about the 'lineage', is it possible to directly still be related to the prophet's family if centuries of inter marriages took place?

Edited by Ismahan007, 28 April 2012 - 05:01 PM.

[Shia_Debater]

Ismahan007, on 28 April 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

^well, they're a lot in number,'one of the biggest tribes in whole of Somalia' if am not mistaken. they're the majority in Somaliland and the leadership thr is under them. but am talking about the 'lineage', is it possible to directly still be related to the prophet's family if centuries of inter marriages took place?

Yes it is possible, the lineage is passed down through the father. Many many sayeds now have had centuries of inter marriages, thats why you will find pakistani sayeds, iraqi sayeds, iranian sayeds, afghan sayeds, yemeni sayeds etc.

As long as the man is a sayed then all of his children will be sayed too, and all of their children will be sayed too etc. regardless of whether they marry a woman who is a sayed or non sayed

Whereas if a sayed woman marries a non sayed man then their children will not be counted as sayed though technically their lineage will go back to the Imams (through the mother) but they won't be called/recognised as sayeds.

Edited by Shia_Debater, 28 April 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Gypsy]

Where do you get that the bloodline of Sayyed goes through Male descendent?

If that was the case then there would be no Sayyed in the world today because all the bloodline to the Prophet goes via Fatima  (sa), a female.

[Shia_Debater]

Gypsy, on 28 April 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Where do you get that the bloodline of Sayyed goes through Male descendent?

If that was the case then there would be no Sayyed in the world today because all the bloodline to the Prophet goes via Fatima  (sa), a female.

Yes but after Fatima (sa) and Imam Ali the bloodline of a Sayed only goes through the Male descendant.

I don't know why but thats just how it is, I have heard it many times from different people, I don't think it's one of those cultural things I don't know but I'm pretty certain it only goes through the male descendants.

[Ismahan007]

Shia_Debater, on 28 April 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

Yes it is possible, the lineage is passed down through the father. Many many sayeds now have had centuries of inter marriages, thats why you will find pakistani sayeds, iraqi sayeds, iranian sayeds, afghan sayeds, yemeni sayeds etc.

As long as the man is a sayed then all of his children will be sayed too, and all of their children will be sayed too etc. regardless of whether they marry a woman who is a sayed or non sayed

Whereas if a sayed woman marries a non sayed man then their children will not be counted as sayed though technically their lineage will go back to the Imams (through the mother) but they won't be called/recognised as sayeds.

I see that but I was wondering since Imam Ali was an arab so how is it possible for His offspring (if we're right to call it) got into pakistani, iranian, yemeni, somali e.t.c sayeds, how this change came about? I never understood this theories.

I was once invited to this group on face book by a friend about these particular tribe from Somalia, ppl thr are all sunni some suffi. I read through the materials but still didn't make sense to me that an entire tribe came from a man who landed in North Somalia from Yemen. I always believed I was pure Somali

Edited by Ismahan007, 28 April 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[Shia_Debater]

Ismahan007, on 28 April 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

I see that but I was wondering since Imam Ali was an arab so how is it possible for His offspring (if we're right to call it) got into pakistani, iranian, yemeni, somali e.t.c sayeds, how this change came about? I never understood this theories.

At the time of Imam Ridha I think it was, the leader (I think Harun al-Rasheed (la) or maybe it was ma'mun (la)) I don't know I get mixed up with the names, anyway he was going to kill all followers of the Imam or something like that, now many of them were sayeds and also (either the sayeds or the shi'a can't remember which one) used to smell nice and had a certain fragrance about them but the Imam made duaa' for Allah (swt) to remove it so they cannot be found so easily, he then told them they had 4 years till harun (la) or ma'mun (la) was going to kill them and he told them to flee and go as far as possible. They went as far as china towards the east and as far as north africa towards the west.

Due to this the shi'a whom alot were sayeds were scattered all over the worlds in different places, and had children etc. and so now there are sayeds all over the world.

It was something like that I heard in a lecture I can't exactly remember the story.

[A true Sunni]

Going back to my point about 'forgotten shia' . You will note that each of the Shia Imams has his honorific added. Non imams have no honorifc. This seems to me to mean that historically the family recognised the importance of these Imams but  became Sunni through dissimulation.

[Is'haaq ibn Ahmad]

Sheikh Ishaaq's grandfather Muhammad binu Hussein was from Iraq and he fled to Madina due to some difficulties with the Abbasids.
Anyway traditionally my father has been passed his lineage from his father and he passed it to me, its a tradition thats how i memorized the names of my ancestors to Sheikh Isaaq, his auto-biogripher Muhammad Al Basri who was with him through his travels his book is in Damascus i wonder how i can get a hold of it.

[A true Sunni]

Is, on 28 April 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Sheikh Ishaaq's grandfather Muhammad binu Hussein was from Iraq and he fled to Madina due to some difficulties with the Abbasids.
Anyway traditionally my father has been passed his lineage from his father and he passed it to me, its a tradition thats how i memorized the names of my ancestors to Sheikh Isaaq, his auto-biogripher Muhammad Al Basri who was with him through his travels his book is in Damascus i wonder how i can get a hold of it.

sounds like you were probably of Shia ancestory. You have a tradition of secrecy within your tribe that you do not share with outsiders. This is similar to the tradition of dissimulation in Shias.

I would hazard a guess that your ancestors were Shia fleeing persecution from the Abbasides settled in somalia but kept their Shia identity secret due to fear of persecution. Over the course of hundreds of years you forgot your Shia roots and merged with the general population becoming Sunni. Your strict adherence to remembering the honorifics of the Shia Imams is an indication of this. There is evidence that this has ocured on the Indian sub-continent as well

Edited by A true Sunni, 28 April 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[Is'haaq ibn Ahmad]

So it is confirmed that alot of Sayyids or descendants fleed Iraq during the Abbasid rule?, Somalis are traditionally Sufis, we do dhikr and hadra and spiritual gatherings and that sort.


Although it is impossible for me to hate Shia's, there's a place in my heart for Shia's.

[Ismahan007]

Is, on 28 April 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

So it is confirmed that alot of Sayyids or descendants fleed Iraq during the Abbasid rule?, Somalis are traditionally Sufis, we do dhikr and hadra and spiritual gatherings and that sort.


Although it is impossible for me
to hate Shia's, there's a place in my heart for Shia's.

how did you come to know about shia that they follow the 12 imams? both my parents are from Somaliland too, but have never heard of the imams almost all my life. did your family taught you anything about the imams or Ahlulbayt in general?

oh, you didn't answer my Q above, I know you said you're Isa'aaq but what's your sub clan, maxa ka tahaay? am just very curious to know

Edited by Ismahan007, 28 April 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[A true Sunni]

Is, on 28 April 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

So it is confirmed that alot of Sayyids or descendants fleed Iraq during the Abbasid rule?, Somalis are traditionally Sufis, we do dhikr and hadra and spiritual gatherings and that sort.


Although it is impossible for me to hate Shia's, there's a place in my heart for Shia's.

Despite what the current leaders of the Sufi orders claim, they all came afterwards. With the exception of the Naqshbandi order all other Sufi orders trace their inspiration back to Hz Ali . This again makes me think that the original founders of the orders were Shias in hiding

[Ismahan007]

^yes I heard that too. sufi practices goes back to our imam A.S . I highly doubt sheikh Isha'q was a shia. he is widely believed to be a suffi follower tho.

[A true Sunni]

Ismahan007, on 28 April 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

how did you come to know about shia that they follow the 12 imams? both my parents are from Somaliland too, but have never heard of the imams almost all my life. did your family taught you anything about the imams or Ahlulbayt in general?

oh, you didn't answer my Q above, I know you said you're Isa'aaq but what's your sub clan, maxa ka tahaay? am just very curious to know

As I was saying  9/12 imams are in your family tree. Most of the Imams has been recognised by his honorific ie no 15Mohammed was the name Taqi is the honorific.

15. Bin Mohammed Al Taqi

15. بن محمد التقي

16. Bin Ali Al Hadi

16. بن علي الهادي

17. Bin Mohammed Al Jawad

17. بن محمدالجواد

18. Bin Ali Al Reda

18. بن علي الرضا

19. Bin Musa Al Kathim

19. موسى الكاظم

20. Bin Jafar Al Sadiq

20. بن جعفر الصادق

21. Bin Mohammed Al Baqir

21. بن محمدالباقر

22. Bin Ali Zainal Al Abiden

22. بن علي زين العابدين

23. Bin Imam Al Hussien

23. بن الامام الحسين

24. Bin Ali

This seems to indicate that your ancestors knew the significance of these individual but you have only remembered them as names

Ismahan007, on 28 April 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

^yes I heard that too. sufi practices goes back to our imam A.S . I highly doubt sheikh Isha'q was a shia. he is widely believed to be a suffi follower tho.

As I said dissimulation of belief to protect the followers. Ask the tribe why they have a culture of secrecy. They will have forgotten Worse then that they will have forgotten the secret as well

[Is'haaq ibn Ahmad]

Ismahan007, on 28 April 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

how did you come to know about shia that they follow the 12 imams? both my parents are from Somaliland too, but have never heard of the imams almost all my life. did your family taught you anything about the imams or Ahlulbayt in general?

oh, you didn't answer my Q above, I know you said you're Isa'aaq but what's your sub clan, maxa ka tahaay? am just very curious to know

I'm Abdurahman (Awal) Sa'ad Musa.

My parents respect Shias even though we are sufis, we watch ahlul-bayt tv, thats how we know. What about you and your family?

A true Sunni, on 28 April 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

Despite what the current leaders of the Sufi orders claim, they all came afterwards. With the exception of the Naqshbandi order all other Sufi orders trace their inspiration back to Hz Ali . This again makes me think that the original founders of the orders were Shias in hiding

I still haven't given Bayah to a Shaykh yeah although i wish to follow the Qadiriyya or the Shahidilli orders since they are active i still engage in the practices of the Naqashbandi order its great.

[Ismahan007]

^ True Sunni

It could be they knew about the Imams only by name and nothing more. even tho I wasn't born and raised in Somaliland, I know enough of its culture and the history. I've never been told about the Imams. about the names, Ive always found it hard to memorize any name. I could barely pass 3 or 4 names lol I had this trouble since young age cos I believed it had no use for me.

Edited by Ismahan007, 28 April 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[Is'haaq ibn Ahmad]

^ I memorised my name until Sheikh Isaaq when i was around 10, now i need to memorise from Sheikh Isaaq to Prophet Muhammad (saw).

[Is'haaq ibn Ahmad]

Brother Im doing fine i am reconciling myself in considering to join the Shahidilli path which encourages in one sitting alone reflecting on his nafs and learning how to make it better. Perhaps the best explanation is

Jibril (a.s) came to the prophet and sahaba in human from dressed in the whitest of white his hair black and his beard black he asked "tell me about the perfection of faith (ihsan),” and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) answered: “It is to worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you see Him not, He nevertheless sees you.”This is what we do, when we sufis walk, we feel as Allah as with us, when we say
"Allahuma Sali Ala Sayidina Muhammad wa Ala Aalihi wa ashaabihi wa salim" we feel the spirit and energy of the prophet because the prophet said whoever sends blessings on me i will be there to send it to him back.

What parts do i not fit in to Islam Ya Akhi.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Its sad to hear you all are on the path of those who killed your ancestors and made you homeless.

Feel free to learn about your ancestors' religion here

[Ismahan007]

Is, on 28 April 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

Brother Im doing fine i am reconciling myself in considering to join the Shahidilli path which encourages in one sitting alone reflecting on his nafs and learning how to make it better. Perhaps the best explanation is

Jibril (a.s) came to the prophet and sahaba in human from dressed in the whitest of white his hair black and his beard black he asked "tell me about the perfection of faith (ihsan),” and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) answered: “It is to worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you see Him not, He nevertheless sees you.”This is what we do, when we sufis walk, we feel as Allah as with us, when we say
"Allahuma Sali Ala Sayidina Muhammad wa Ala Aalihi wa ashaabihi wa salim" we feel the spirit and energy of the prophet because the prophet said whoever sends blessings on me i will be there to send it to him back.

What parts do i not fit in to Islam Ya Akhi.

oh man!Astakhfirullah suffis even say Allah can be in everything. true, we should learn to reflect a lot about ourselves and other creations of Allah and make ourselves a better humans but plz tell me how is it going to hadrada every Thursday night to do some weird things would help you achieve this? you don't find this practices practiced by the prophet or imams. you can only uplift ur spirituality by what the prophet legislated and not by what some elders of our community did. you need to question yourself certain question. can anyone give you islam other than Allah and the prophet, No. Allah and the prophet appointed imam Ali as a leader after the prophet. so no one other than the chosen imams of Ahlulbayt can be followed in the matters of the religion. research about the 12 imams and learn about their status. don't be put of by the idea that shias hate the sahaba.


it's fine if you don't want to know about shia but I would like to ask you about this, since you said you're from Sa'ad Musa and is 'sayed' meaning decended from the prophet what other proof you have to proof ur claim other than the oral tradition? is there anything else to support that sheikh Isa'q tribe is from banu hashim? jzk

Edited by Ismahan007, 28 April 2012 - 10:50 PM.