38 replies to this topic

[princevisram]

Ruwayd, on 17 July 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

First of all, Nizari Ismailis do not use hadiths. They don't have hadith books and they have no records of what the Prophet (SAWS) said or did, as a result. As one might infer, they have no authentication system for hadiths, also. The knowledge that Nizari Ismailis have when it comes to hadiths and the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS) is, thereby, precisely zero. Thus, Nizari Ismailis have no way of knowing how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted and implemented the Qur'an [i.e. what the Prophet (SAWS) said or did in his lifetime, and especially during Prophethood] - including anything that happened during the Battle of Khaybar (or whether events like Ghadir-e-Khumm even occurred, as a matter of fact). What about orientalist books on the life of the Prophet (SAWS), you ask? Well, the speculations of orientalists with regard to what the Prophet (SAWS) said or did in his lifetime - or even whether he lived at all (which some of them are now in fact questioning) - are just that: speculations. No Muslim worth the dust on the road is that interested in these speculations because they are not valid proof of anything. They are more like possibilities that may or may not have occurred. When it comes to talking about anything involving the Prophet (SAWS) and his life, including how he interpreted and understood the Qur'an, Muslims are interested in authentic hadiths. Do the Nizari Ismailis have any? Nope. Secondly, please give us the hadith reference for your quote - from either Sunni or Twelver hadith books. Also, demonstrate to us that the hadith you are quoting is in fact authentic and reliable (meets the standards of a sahih or at least a hasan hadith). Most reported hadiths are not authentic (whether in Sunni or Twelver books) [and part of the reason for this is because hadith compilers wanted to keep track of anything reported about the Prophet (SAWS), even if it was false, so at least the fraudulent hadiths could be kept track of]. Thirdly, if this hadith you are quoting is indeed either sahih or hasan, then why do you accept it but reject all of the other sahih and hasan hadiths (be they in Sunni or Twelver hadith books)? For instance, what enables you, as a Nizari Ismaili, to differentiate between two sahih hadiths from either a Sunni or Twelver hadith book - accepting one but rejecting the other? There are many sahih hadiths in both Sunni and Twelver hadith books that would completely destroy the beliefs of Nizari Ismailis. Are you going to only accept the sahih hadiths that don't clearly disagree with the teachings of Nizari Ismailism? That would be irrational and unjustified. Fourthly, you will need to demonstrate that, in the authentic hadith being referenced by you (if it is indeed considered authentic by Sunnis or Twelvers or both), the Prophet (SAWS) was calling Ali but Ali wouldn't normally have been able to hear what the Prophet was saying. If Ali was with the Prophet (SAWS) when this statement was made, then the context is that of a direct human-to-human discussion, and not what you're suggesting. You see, what you are suggesting is truly extraordinary. You are suggesting that Ali can hear AND respond to a Muslim's summon of "Ya Ali" in the same way that Allah (SWT) can hear AND respond to a Muslim's summon of "Ya Allah." Sounds pretty preposterous right off the bat, and sounds like something that the Prophet (SAWS) was sent to eradicate and not encourage (given that Tawheed and La Ilaha Ilah Lah was what he spent more time preaching than anything else during his Prophethood). What you're talking about is beyond simply intercession, since you neither mention intercession nor Allah when saying "Ya Ali Madad." Let me add that it is not surprising to me that Imam Ali never even so much as uttered a supplication like "Ya Rasulullah" after the Prophet (SAWS) passed away. P.S. Let's be honest: Nizari Ismailism is a fairy tale with no foundation and no evidence behind it whatsoever. There is more evidence to indicate that Santa Clause is real then that Nizari Ismailism (or the Aga Khan) are true. And, from where do you derive the Prophet's interpretation of the Qur'an - or anything about the Prophet's (SAWS) life - without hadiths and the Sunnah? Go and look at what the Imams said about the importance of the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS), starting with Imam Ali . Heck, you don't even need to do that because it's common sense. The whole Deen of Islam (including the concept of Imamat, for those of us who are Twelvers and use Twelver hadith books) stems from the utilization of the Sunnah to interpret the Qur'an - and this is something that both Sunnis and Twelvers (98% of the people on this planet claiming to be Muslim) have always accepted and understood. It is part and parcel of Islam. Without the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS), there is no way to know how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted the Qur'an and implemented the Qur'an, and this is why the Sunnah is so tremendously important for all Muslims. Nizari Ismailis, without the Sunnah, are completely lost in the wilderness - just like the Christians, who have a religion that is based solely on faith (since, not only is the Bible corrupted, but, nobody knows how to interpret it either). Sunnis have a right to their interpretation of the Qur'an because they have their version of the Sunnah (their own hadith books and their own hadith authentication system). Same goes for Twelvers, because Twelvers have their own version of the Sunnah as well (their own hadith books and their own authentication system). Do Nizari Ismailis have their own version of the Sunnah? Nope! They have no idea how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted and implemented the Qur'an. Only one of these phrases was used as the greeting of the Prophets and the Imams when dealing with other believers. The first one represents ghuluww (extremism) - and is not even a greeting, but, rather an invocation that can neither be heard nor responded to without Allah's direct aid. Yet no mention of Allah is made. The second one is cultural (used in the Indian subcontinent).

Ismailis do in fact take heed of the Beloved Prophet (saw) and the accounts in the life of Imam Ali

BUT seriously, the next time you meet an Ismaili (and not one who doesn't practice their faith), then simply engage in discussion. You will come to know that they are aware of the major events that have taken place in the life of Muhammad (saw). The events that occurred at Ghadir-e-Khum is known by any Ismaili. Go on and click this link and see what Ismailis are learning from grades one to six. This curriculum has been translated in multiple languages and is used by Ismailis all over the world. If you go through the curriculum, you will learn that Ismailis do learn, from young, about the life of the Prophet (saw) and that of Imam Ali and the rest of the Ismaili Imams that followed.

Putting the above plead I quoted aside, have you not heard the Nad-e-Ali? Take a look at this site.

This incident known is not limited to Ismailis.

"It is reported through reliable sources that when all the notable companions of the Holy Prophet failed to make headway at Khaybar, Jibrail came with the text of Naadi Ali and asked the Holy Prophet to call Ali through this. The Holy Prophet accordingly recited this divine revelation, and Mawla Ali who was staying at home because of an eye infection, came and conquered the fort of Khaybar.
Naadi Ali, both large and small, are very affective for all purposes, particularly to overcome enemy, to come through tight situations, to withstand crises, to avoid accidents, and to have freedom from danger."
(Source)


IS it not also true that Ali is one of the 99 Names of Allah, meaning The Most High? So can Ya Ali Madad also be a prayer which is calling for the help of The Most High (i.e. Allah)?

Edited by princevisram, 17 July 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[Ruwayd]

Why are you not answering the questions I posed in my response to you? You just ignore them completely in your post. That is awfully ignorant and disrespectful of you. You make me feel like I'm wasting my time.

princevisram, on 17 July 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

This curriculum has been translated in multiple languages and is used by Ismailis all over the world. If you go through the curriculum, you will learn that Ismailis do learn, from young, about the life of the Prophet (saw) and that of Imam Ali and the rest of the Ismaili Imams that followed.

And whose hadith books and hadith authentication system are the stories (that are reported in this curriculum) based on? That of the Sunnis? That of the Twelvers? Or none? How do you know that the stores that are taught about the Prophet (SAWS) in your curriculum really took place, in other words?

Forget the fact that I'm a Muslim. Pretend I'm an inquiring Agnostic that is asking: how do you know that the biographical material that is taught about the Prophet (SAWS) in your curriculum really took place and is not simply a bunch of made up hogwash?

You see, (knowledgeable) Sunnis and Twelvers can answer this question. If you cannot answer this question, then your religion is nothing more than a leap of faith, like Christianity. It seems to me that you agree with what I'm saying here, given your lack of response to the questions I posed in my previous post.

The problem is that there are many sahih hadiths in both Sunni and Twelver hadith books that completely contradict the beliefs of Nizari Ismailis. Yet, Nizari Ismailis are irrationally ignoring these hadiths, but, then claiming to believe in other hadiths from these very same books (that manage not to clearly contradict Nizari Ismailism) - like the hadith of Ghadir-e-Khumm, among many others.

Think about that! It makes no freaking sense! It makes your religion (Nizari Ismailism) look like a joke!

This means that you guys have no reliable sources or reliable historical information on how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted the Qur'an (i.e. you have no documentation of the Sunnah of the Prophet) - essentially meaning, as well, that you guys have no evidence to support your interpretation of the Qur'an [including evidence for (among many other things) the concept of Imamat; or that the Prophet (SAWS) even remotely believed in Imamat in the same way that you guys do].

What evidence do you have (without referring to the hadith books that belong to Sunnis and Twelvers and thereby backup the beliefs of Sunnis and Twelvers and not Nizari Ismailis), that the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted the Qur'an in the same way that Nizari Ismailis do today, or in even a remotely similar fashion? The answer is none - since Nizari Ismailis didn't document the Sunnah of the Prophet (in the form of hadith books or otherwise), unlike the Sunnis and the Twelvers.

princevisram, on 17 July 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Putting the above plead I quoted aside, have you not heard the Nad-e-Ali? Take a look at this site.

This incident known is not limited to Ismailis.

"It is reported through reliable sources that when all the notable companions of the Holy Prophet failed to make headway at Khaybar, Jibrail came with the text of Naadi Ali and asked the Holy Prophet to call Ali through this. The Holy Prophet accordingly recited this divine revelation, and Mawla Ali who was staying at home because of an eye infection, came and conquered the fort of Khaybar.
Naadi Ali, both large and small, are very affective for all purposes, particularly to overcome enemy, to come through tight situations, to withstand crises, to avoid accidents, and to have freedom from danger."
(Source)

How do you know that the above is not a fabrication? Don't you realize that most of what is reported about the Prophets and the Imams is fabricated? Don't you realize that a system of authentication (like that used by Sunnis or like that used by Twelvers) is necessary to distinguish between fabricated hadiths and authentic hadiths?

Please demonstrate that the above report comes from an unbroken chain of trustworthy narrators going back to the Prophet (SAWS) or one of the 12 Imams. Please also demonstrate that each of the narrators was trustworthy and actually could have communicated with one another in an unbroken chain. A Sunni or a Twelver can answer these requests of mine. Why can't a Nizari Ismaili?

Here is an example of a Twelver response. Show me a Nizari Ismaili response.

Wait, that's going to be impossible - since the Nizari Ismailis never developed a system of authenticating hadiths. In fact, they don't have any compilations of hadiths in the first place.

princevisram, on 17 July 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

IS it not also true that Ali is one of the 99 Names of Allah, meaning The Most High? So can Ya Ali Madad also be a prayer which is calling for the help of The Most High (i.e. Allah)?

No, because "Ali" refers to Imam Ali whereas al-Ali refers to Allah.

Imam Ali supplicated to al-Ali. Yet, you wish to ignore his example and supplicate to him.

In your backward thinking, you are supplicating to the one who himself had to supplicate to Allah. This is one of the things that Allah severely criticized the Christians for doing. Please learn from this instead of ignoring it.

[princevisram]

Ruwayd, on 17 July 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Why are you not answering the questions I posed in my response to you? You just ignore them completely in your post. That is awfully ignorant and disrespectful of you. You make me feel like I'm wasting my time.

Wow it sounds like you are expecting — rather, demanding — an answer from me. I don't feel I'm the ignorant or disrespectful one.

Good luck on finding answers elsewhere. You aren't very inviting to a response, and don't seem to appreciate them anyways. QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS — Let's all learn about this guy so we can bash his beliefs!

I personally feel this has to do with the concept that since we are a minority, you treat us differently. Think about it — The Sunnis bash the Shias because they have a larger population. The larger sects of Shias go on to bash the smaller sects, simply because they are smaller. What is it that we are seeking? An act of importance? Can we not just act as an Ummah? Imagine if all the Muslims would work together and accept each other as Muslims. Or even just the Shia Muslims accepting all the minority Shia sects under their cover. Imagine how strong we would be together, united. And in case you are wondering, that is what my faith teaches. Work together, united.

I am a Muslim. If I say "La Ilaha Illa Allah" five times a day (which is true), then why can't you simply accept that I love the Prophet (saw) and accept Islam as my religion? I may practice it different than you. I may have different beliefs than you. But in the end, if I say I'm Muslim, I don't see what the big deal is.

In fact, if I say I'm Muslim, your judgement is already overruled because you wouldn't understand my relationship with Allah.

And just to be clear, religion is based on faith for a reason. All this authenticity is false anyways. The books of hadiths which lay at your house were given to you, or you bought them at some point. You simply have faith that they were once written that way. If I ask you how you know the ahadith are authentic, all you can say is that you have faith that the population who upheld the tradition of recording the sayings and actions of the Prophet (saw) did a really good job of it. AND I agree. Things were preserved extremely well, and this is why, Masha'Allah, we the Qur'an at our fingertips in this day and age. BUT it all started with this leap of faith.

I'm sorry that I did and will not answer your questions. I just feel that some people on this forum are not ready for it and others are simply immature. Like kids — let's argue about everything!

I don't enjoy debating. I have said this multiple times in multiple places on this forum when I was an active member a couple of years ago. I don't mind sharing my views to people who are willing to listen. I mean listen. Like listen, then accept that is who they are, then move on. I'm not going to go around and try and claim you are wrong in your beliefs — I don't believe in that. The Prophet (saw) always respected his enemies, and so too did Imam Ali — to the extent of even giving a glass of milk, if you recall, to Ibn Muljam.

Anyways enough said on my part. Go on, take this as a 'surrender' if you wish. I see strength in my speech, because Allahu Alam, Allah knows best.

In the end it's not between you and I anyways. It's about me and my relationship with Allah.

Ruwayd, on 17 July 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

What evidence do you have (without referring to the hadith books that belong to Sunnis and Twelvers and thereby backup the beliefs of Sunnis and Twelvers and not Nizari Ismailis), that the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted the Qur'an in the same way that Nizari Ismailis do today, or in even a remotely similar fashion? The answer is none - since Nizari Ismailis didn't document the Sunnah of the Prophet (in the form of hadith books or otherwise), unlike the Sunnis and the Twelvers.

And just to say something to clear up the confusion, I hope you realize that at one point we were one Ummah. So there is no you and I, in my opinion. As a Muslim, those ahadith which you speak of are rightfully mine as much as they may be yours.

And if you're looking for something more individualistic, teachings which have been perserved amongst us are the Kalam-e-Mawla, the teachings of Imam Ali . As for our Beloved Prophet (saw), we do rely on the rest of the Ummah, our fellow brothers and sisters of Islam, and of course, how our present Imam describes the life of the Prophet (saw).

Edited by princevisram, 17 July 2012 - 11:59 PM.

[Ruwayd]

princevisram, it is to your own detriment that you're unable to answer these questions. You're just re-affirming that your religion (Nizari Ismailism) has no evidence to support it, making it indistinguishable from ideas like the Tooth Fairy or Santa Clause. You're walking around like a blind sheep; like a Christian who worships Jesus - except you worship the Aga Khan. I would respect you more if you were an Agnostic, because at least you would be asking hard questions and demanding evidence for your beliefs (perhaps eventually leading you to true Islam) - instead of falling prey to the beliefs of your forefathers, as the pre-Islamic Arabs did.

In Islam (as Sunnis and Twelvers understand it, at least), evidence precedes faith. Islam is not a religion that asks its followers to make a leap of faith, as in Christianity. All Muslim beliefs firstly stem from the immaculate and miraculous Qur'an. You cannot be a Muslim if you believe that the Qur'an comes from a fallible entity. Now, whose interpretation of the Qur'an is of primary importance and ultimate relevance when it comes to understanding and practicing Islam? Where do all concepts and principles in Islam ultimately stem from? The Prophet's interpretation of the Qur'an, of course. However, you can't know the Prophet's interpretation of the Qur'an without having documented his Sunnah (including compilations of hadiths and having a hadith authentication system). If you see concepts or ideas in the Qur'an that the Prophet didn't - or vice-versa - you can be sure that he is correct and you are incorrect, and that what he's seeing is Islam and what you're seeing isn't Islam. 98% of those who call themselves Muslims accept and understand this extremely rational and logical line of thinking, while the Nizari Ismailis somehow do not (except for an increasing few who are seeing the light and leaving Nizari Ismailism to become regular Muslims, thankfully).

princevisram, on 17 July 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

As a Muslim, those ahadith which you speak of are rightfully mine as much as they may be yours.

Please understand that the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted the Qur'an completely differently from how you folks claim to, IF we are to accept the authentic hadiths of either the Sunnis or Twelvers. In other words, if you accepted either all of the authentic hadiths in Sunni hadith books or all of the authentic hadiths in Twelver hadith books, you would never be a Nizari Ismaili. I hope you realize how ridiculous you sound in your post above, therefore.

If not, well here: it is pure hypocrisy to pick-and-choose certain authentic hadiths out of Sunni hadith books or Twelver hadith books and then ignore (for no valid reason!) all the other authentic hadiths in these books. Yet, this is precisely what you and other Nizari Ismailis have been doing. Us regular Muslims can only roll our eyes when we see such silliness and misguided behavior, because if you guys actually bothered to accept all of the authentic hadiths that are reported, you would insha'Allah see how so very far Nizari Ismailism is from true Islam.

[princevisram]

Believe what you want, and let me believe what I wish. Besides I don't know who you are to judge how I am practicing my faith. Judgement is not in your hands. You can say I am practicing wrong, but in the end, Allahu Alam — and you can't change that. It is Allah who knows best, my dear friend.

[Kismet110]

^^^
Islam is not a hippie free-for-all where you can just pick and choose any deen or stick to the one you were born in and add woolly phrases to it to give you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

This is the faith sent to us by Allah (JJH) via Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and Noble Quran then practiced by the Holy Imams and captured in paak narrations.

If you have trouble understanding or accepting that then that is a problem for YOU. The Aga Khan Ismailis, based on my admittedly limited knowledge and information, are a seriously corrupted, deviant cult based on worship of the current leader.

You don't practice Islam and no amount of greeting each other with "Ya Ali Madad" (much as I love that) will cover the shocking deficiencies.

Please stop defending the indefensible. To me you are no less ignorant or brainwashed than sunnis who praise Muawiyah. You people honestly believe this Westernised playboy cavorting with semi-naked women on expensive yachts is (mazhallah) the embodiment of Maula Ali or of the same Nur?

Even writing that fills me with rage yet you deviants actually BELIEVE this garbage. Lana'at on him and you.

ALI

Edited by Kismet110, 18 July 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[princevisram]

Kismet110, on 18 July 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

^^^
If you have trouble understanding or accepting that then that is a problem for YOU. The Aga Khan Ismailis, based on my admittedly limited knowledge and information, are a seriously corrupted, deviant cult based on worship of the current leader.

I don't have trouble understanding or accepting anything in my faith, Alhamdulillah. BUT it seems that all of you do though. And then you question the secrecy of my religion? Well, with the limited knowledge you have, look at how you criticize it. The more you know the more you will criticize. SO in the end, I have learned my lesson. There is no point in explaining to the ignorant who don't even wish to listen. I will let you sputter amongst yourselves with the limited knowledge each of you have about the Ismaili sect of Shia Islam, and Inshallah you can make conclusions on your own.

Don't be expecting another post in the thread authored by me.

Ya Ali Madad
Khuda Hafiz
As-Salamu Alaykum

[Ruwayd]

princevisram, on 18 July 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

Believe what you want, and let me believe what I wish. Besides I don't know who you are to judge how I am practicing my faith. Judgement is not in your hands. You can say I am practicing wrong, but in the end, Allahu Alam — and you can't change that. It is Allah who knows best, my dear friend.

I'm not the ultimate judge of you. But, I'm allowed to criticize you and your cult - and judge it thereby - both for the safety of my Deen and the Deen of fellow Muslims. Neither the Prophet (SAWS) nor Imam Ali or any pious Muslim would tolerate extremists like you who ignore the Shariah and many of the pillars of Islam (including Namaz, Hajj, Fasting, Jihad, etc.) as well as deify a Dajjal like the Aga Khan.

I suggest you look into how Imam Ali treated and dealt with the ghulaat (like the Nizari Ismailis, Nusayris, Druze, etc. in our modern day) during his lifetime, based on the authentic reports we have about his life.

[tumala]

Salaam,

From my observation, Ruwayd is probably a Wahabi Sunni, rather than an Ithnaasheri.

Keeping that in mind, Ruwayd and his types will find any way possible to defame a Shia (Nizari Ismaili) Muslim Imam, and the mahdab he represents.

This is nothing new as the disbelievers heckled the Holy Prophet in the past, and are also presently doing so to the Imam of the Time (Imam Shah Karim Al-Hussaini Aga Khan IV) and his followers.

A Sunni theologian (Allamah Taftazani) records:

“He who dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of Jahiliyah” period.
  Reference http://www.answering...te/en/chap2.php

You can mock, make fun, slander, do whatever to the Holy Imam, however are fundamentally missing the key element in Islam which is recognizing the Imam of the Time for Sunnis, and recognizing the present and visible Imam for the Ithnaasheris, Mustaali Ismailis, and other groups.


"Verily take it to your hearts that when an Imam openly declares his Imamate all sinners should know that proof of Allah (Hujuthullah) has arrived, and that Allah (swt) has fulfilled his promise, failure to adhere to it shall lead to the wrath of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, and sins and wrongdoing against the Imams shall take lead one to doom.”
Reference Munsub-e-Imamate, pages 106-107

If you are trying to compare Sunni Sunnah (exoteric) tradition with that of the Shia Imami Nizari Muslim (esoteric) tradition, there is no comparison at all. It is like comparing apple and oranges.

Ruwayd, whatever you have posted about the Nizari Ismailis (Muslims) is all baloney. You have not convinced me, nor other Muslims (Nizari Ismailis), or in that case many intellectual and intelligent individuals who have embraced our tariqah. There are many many learned individuals from both Sunni Sunnah & Ithnaasheri religions that have deep respect for our Imam and our Jamat (Community).

Your religion is that of the sword, and history has shown it. Even until today you guys Sunni Sunnahs and Ithnaasheris blow up each other in different parts of the world.  What have your religions, which is obviously not Islam (which means peace btw), taught you?

[Kismet110]

No one is judging anyone else, that is for Allah (jjh) to decide.

However, commenting on the deviancy of your cult is not only permissible but a duty to avoid simpletons getting sucked in to this seriously wayward sect.

You can't answer with logic, Noble Quran or Paak Narration so you pick superior 'knowledge' as your reason to run away.

Lana'at on your fake 'Imám' and his dusgraceful claim to this holiest of stations.

ALI

[Ruwayd]

tumala, on 19 July 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Salaam,

From my observation, Ruwayd is probably a Wahabi Sunni, rather than an Ithnaasheri.

I'm simply a Muslim. You're trying to discredit me by making me look like something I'm not because you want me to keep quiet about your messed-up religion and your impostor leader.

tumala, on 19 July 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

You can mock, make fun, slander, do whatever to the Holy Imam, however are fundamentally missing the key element in Islam which is recognizing the Imam of the Time for Sunnis, and recognizing the present and visible Imam for the Ithnaasheris, Mustaali Ismailis, and other groups.

Is it these that are in error or you that in error? To me, the answer is obvious - not just right away, but, especially when one studies the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS) and compares it to how your wacky religion operates. How he interpreted the Qur'an is completely different from how Nizari Ismailis interpret it, and this is a historical fact - regardless of whether one relies on the authentic hadiths of the Sunnis or the authentic hadiths of the Twelvers to come to this conclusion.

By the way, no one's trying to mock you. There is no need nor desire for that. The facts bare out quite clearly that your religion is a fraud and that your "Imam" is a fraudster.

tumala, on 19 July 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

If you are trying to compare Sunni Sunnah (exoteric) tradition with that of the Shia Imami Nizari Muslim (esoteric) tradition, there is no comparison at all. It is like comparing apple and oranges.

Islam vs. Nizari Ismailism = Apples vs. Oranges - actually, more like Truth vs. Falsehood

You guys have little in common with both Sunnis and Twelvers, including most of the basics of Islam (namaz, saum, hajj, jihad, etc.).

tumala, on 19 July 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Ruwayd, whatever you have posted about the Nizari Ismailis (Muslims) is all baloney.

Since you're a Nizari Ismaili, you know and I know that what I've written in this forum about Nizari Ismailism is faithfully transmitted and very accurate if not entirely accurate. You dismiss it as "baloney" because you're unable to respond, since you have nothing to respond with.

After all, unlike both Sunnis and Twelvers, Nizari Ismailis don't have any documentation of the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS) nor any method for authenticating ahadith. As a result, they have no proof for how the Prophet (SAWS) lived his life, interpreted the Qur'an, and implemented the Qur'an (including with respect to Ghadir-e-Khumm and the concept of Imamat). Many Nizari Ismailis don't even believe the Qur'an is still a valid and uncorrupted source of guidance (as the previous Nizari Ismaili Imam, Aga Khan III, told his followers that the Qur'an has been corrupted).

So, what would a Nizari Ismaili respond with? Your religion as it is practiced today is nothing but a ridiculous story that has as much evidence supporting it as the stories of Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy. While true Muslims follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS) - and Imamat as a concept that stems from that (if they are Twelvers) - you guys worship a French billionaire that cheats on his wives, lives off a family fortune that was built on the backs of his followers, builds $200M yachts for fun, sells alcohol in his hotels, etc...I could go on and on and on.

tumala, on 19 July 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Your religion is that of the sword, and history has shown it. Even until today you guys Sunni Sunnahs and Ithnaasheris blow up each other in different parts of the world.  

Wow.

This comment just gives you away. It is a comment that is so full of hatred and vitriol for Muslims and Islam. It is hard for anyone to come away from reading this comment of yours with the thinking that you're a Muslim.

There is no compulsion in Islam and Islam was, with very few exceptions, spread peacefully. That is why many religions other than Islam survived in Muslim countries for so long (in fact, under the protection of Muslims). To this day, there are many Christian and Jewish communities that thank their very existence to the Islamic principle that no one can become a Muslim out of force.

You clearly do not know much about Islam, nor do you appreciate that over a quarter of the world is Muslim. Our few bad apples (whether Sunni or Twelver) are larger in terms of population than the entire population of your Dajjal-led cult. So, of course it's easy for you to criticize us when we're so large and so many in number compared to you.

[tumala]

Dear Ruwayd (the Wahabi)

Haha, you're a joke man...

Are you in grade two?

Here is your flawed logic... just because most Sunnis and those who follow the traditional Shariah are in majority, does it make you guys correct?  Simple answer = absolutely NOT!

In the time of the Holy Prophet , the disbelievers were in majority and they thought he was a madman, did that make the majority (disbelievers) correct?

At present there are more non-Sunnis/Ithnaasheris combined in the world, however the Holy Prophet's message has been spread from corner to corner of this earth, does it make their faiths & beliefs and or disbeliefs correct?

From the horse's own mouth:

“He who dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of Jahiliyah” period.
Reference http://www.answering...te/en/chap2.php

If you're a Sunni Sunnah, you may want to convert to Islam (Shia Imami Nizari Ismaili Muslim) and accept the Imam of the Time (H H Prince Karim Aga Khan IV), and if you're Ithnaasheri or from another Shia group, you may want to find your respective hidden Imams, make them manifest, and or accept the visible Imam of the Time.

Without the recognition and obedience to the Imam of Time, you are nothing, and are basically like pieces of fecal matter.
Your namaz, fasting, hajj, etc. are worthless, and not even your so called "authentic hadiths"(more like fabricated) nor ideologies will help/save you.

Islam (Imamate, Nizari Ismailism) vs Sunnism Sunnahism Wahabism = Apples vs Oranges, Truth vs Falsehood

Have you seen Pirates of the Arabian?  =)

...

[Ruwayd]

Tumala,

Firstly, the Sunni/Twelver discussion forum is here.

Secondly, this thread is about Nizari Ismailis and not Muslims.

Thirdly, you're only discrediting yourself by trying to switch the subject. People aren't going to be fooled by your juvenile attempt to turn this into a Sunni vs. Twelver discussion rather than a discussion on what credible evidence exists for the beliefs of the Nizari Ismailis. So far, you and other Nizari Ismailis have failed to provide any credible evidence to backup your beliefs - both when it comes to proving Imamat as you guys understand it [since you guys, unlike BOTH Sunnis and Twelvers, have no documentation - let alone authentically transmitted documentation - of how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted the Qur'an and thereby the concept of Imamat], as well as when it comes to proving that the Aga Khan (an adulterer, alcohol seller, horse racing gambler, etc.) should be considered the Imam according to your baseless understanding of Imamat.

Fourthly, I never said that those in the majority are necessarily correct. I simply pointed out that, unlike BOTH Sunnis and Twelvers (both of whom you apparently regard as kuffar), you Nizari Ismailis have simply offered NO credible evidence whatsoever to back up your beliefs. Your beliefs are a fairy tale (like "Cinderella" and "Snow White") that you expect people to believe in based on "faith," much like how Christians justify their beliefs based on "faith." Sorry, but, we're not Christians and we're not going to waste our time trying to accept ideas for which you continuously provide no credible proof. You guys are so stupidly naive in this regard that it is unbelievable. You try and quote certain authentically transmitted hadiths out of Sunni and Twelver hadith books - but, you don't understand that these hadiths (when you actually manage to quote authentically transmitted ones instead of ones with weak chains) support the Shariah, support worshiping Allah instead of the Prophets and Imams, and support the practicing of Islam as Sunnis and Twelvers, respectively, strive to practice it. In other words, the authentically transmitted hadiths that are out there contradict the beliefs of Nizari Ismailis instead of supporting them - particularly when these hadiths are taken holistically.

Your "Imam" does not even try to gain new followers because he knows that he has no evidence to support the claims that you have been fed / brainwashed since you were born. This is part of the reason that there are NO Nizari Ismailis that have been able to get the Aga Khan's support in preaching the religion of Nizari Ismailism to the Muslim community (let alone to the Agnostics, Jews, etc.). Anyone who has the truth is supposed to share it with others and convince others of it - which is partly why Muslims believe so much in daw'ah. Yet your "Imam" sits quietly in a corner like a lap dog and gets more overweight by the day.

Here is a quick grading of your so-called "Imam," for instance:

Anyone who has the truth does not hesitate to actively call all others to it. (fail)
Anyone who is divinely guided goes ahead and proves it to others just like the Prophet . (fail)
Anyone who claims to be divinely guided and does neither of these is clearly a Dajjal. (checkmark)

Your "Imam" is an evil man and is swimming naked. One day, the tide will go out and everyone who has fallen for the image he tries to project will realize what a criminal he is. May Allah make that day come quickly.

[A_Ali]

varun loves ahlulbayt, on 27 April 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

Ismaili's Don't Believe In Hazrat Ali's Imamat


then how do they call themselves as shias ???

brother you are muslim before anything remember that, shia is short for shia tul ali meaning follower of ali, if a christan belived in imam ali and his wisdom he is technically a shia, if you can understand what im telling you