31 replies to this topic

[Noura]

Lebanese march for secularism

In two weeks and two days, the Lebanese Laïque Pride activist group will hold its third annual Seculars March Towards Citizenship, a three-hour procession from Sanayeh to Ain el-Mraisseh calling for “a secular civil state founded on citizenship” and “the abolition of institutional sectarianism”.
As the @LaiquePride account tweeted earlier in the week, their six key demands are as follows:

1. Enacting a unified Civil Code for the Personal Status Law
2. Passing the Law for Protection of Women from Family Violence submitted by KAFA to the Lebanese parliament
3. Abolishing article 522 of the penal law, which drops charges against a rapist if he marries his victim
4. Amending the nationality law for the right of Lebanese women to grant their nationality to their family
5. Passing the Draft Law Prohibiting the Pre-Censorship [of] Cinema and Theatre

6. Withdrawing the Lebanese Internet Regulation Act (LIRA) draft law

I’m aware that some Lebanese think it a rather good thing that, in their country, wives may be legally raped and beaten; marital and inheritance disputes are settled by theologians; films and plays are routinely censored; and a child born to the wrong faith can’t become president.
For those who feel otherwise, however, the march starts at 16:00 at Sanayeh Gardens, May 6th.

http://www.nowlebano...?TID=2345&FID=6

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

I thought Lebanon was secular already. o_o

[titumir]

Proudly sponsored by Mossad, CIA for one goal -- handicapping Lebanese Shi'ites, so that Lebanon can be easily invaded.

The nappy-wearing battle-dodging secularists may be loud with their demands, but useless in fighting to defend their land.

[Abu Muslim]

I would love to be there to hold a sign saying 'Go back to the kitchen' ..Psst Women rights

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

Zahratul_Islam, on 20 April 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

It is.

Coincidentally, tomorrow I am holding a rally for secularism in the United States. It will peacefully protest the truckload of anti-women legislation being proposed and passed across the states.

By "rally" I mean I am going to sit in my living room, eat grape leaves, and yell at CSPAN- but hey it will probably still be a bigger head count the people going to "the March for Secularism In Lebanon."  

Is that still your speciality?

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed, 20 April 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[south-lebanon]

4,5,6 are just outrages, they have nothing to do with secularism, more to do with corruption.

[Noah-]

titumir, on 20 April 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Proudly sponsored by Mossad, CIA for one goal -- handicapping Lebanese Shi'ites, so that Lebanon can be easily invaded.

The nappy-wearing battle-dodging secularists may be loud with their demands, but useless in fighting to defend their land.

Bro these things noted above have nothing to do with Shiism or Islam, if they want to rally to make those changes, good for them. For example, no charges against a rapist if he marries his victim.

Besides, Lebanon has a secular government already except when it is divided on the basis of sectarian and ethnic groups when it comes to appointing government officials... the judicial and institutional laws do not apply any religious laws from what I know.

It is about bad secularism vs good secularism... they should title their rally!

They should also march to change the stupid and old laws which dedicate certain numbers of seats for certain sects in the parliament, or a Christian should be always the president, a Sunni the PM and a Shia the speaker. Any political party who wins majority should get more seats and seats in the cabinet to party members. But, they are afraid since Shia population is really growing and nowadays they are almost the majority of the entire Lebanese population.

Now, if I ask this Noura, if you are too much for secularism, then how come it makes since to appoint a SUNNI always as a PM and pick that Sunni from a wealthy family without any direct election? Why not a free election based on popular votes? Same for MPs? And cabinet ministers? And elect your president through elections instead of giving the seat to a guy from the Christian community and Shias should come up with a speaker? Nothing like this exist in the entire world of secularism! You need some huge issues to resolve within your so called secular system in Lebanon than to make some changes on some women issues or citizenship issues.

Edited by Noah-, 20 April 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[Noura]

Noah if hezbollah gave up its guns, and if their was written in the constitution of lebanon that an islamic state like that in iran or pakistan or saudi arabia couldn't ever in a billion years be implemented in Lebanon, and that secularism and civil laws and rights for women and minorities were forever protected and the army is the only armed force in lebanon, then I would have no problem with your suggestion of direct elections.

And lebanon is secular compared to other countries in the region, many laws in lebanon are outdated.

Edited by Noura, 20 April 2012 - 09:58 PM.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

Noura, on 20 April 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Noah if hezbollah gave up its guns, and if their was written in the constitution of lebanon that an islamic state like that in iran or pakistan or saudi arabia couldn't ever in a billion years be implemented in Lebanon, and that secularism and civil laws and rights for women and minorities were forever protected and the army is the only armed force in lebanon, then I would have no problem with your suggestion of direct elections.

The same one who stood by as their country was getting bombed by Israel? What a joke and a waste of space.

[Noah-]

Noura, on 20 April 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Noah if hezbollah gave up its guns, and if their was written in the constitution of lebanon that an islamic state like that in iran or pakistan or saudi arabia couldn't ever in a billion years be implemented in Lebanon, and that secularism and civil laws and rights for women and minorities were forever protected and the army is the only armed force in lebanon, then I would have no problem with your suggestion of direct elections.

  LOL what? How this has anything to do with Hizbullah's arms or to write something in constitution that Sharia is not going to be implemented? Since when did ever Hizb fight for Sharia law? Why don't you make Salafis in Lebanon and the loser Palestinians who left their own country and now they are getting together with these Salafist Lebanese in Lebanon to declare their desires for Sharia? If Hizb with all its power did not implement Sharia and never ever said that it is fighting for Sharia laws, then why would it implement once direct elections take place? And who said a HIZB MEMBER will win and become the president or the PM once there is a direct election? Maybe a Sunni who is loved by all communities will win most of the votes and will be elected.

WHAT A STUPID EXCUSE.

I just wanted to proof that you BS and you have no desire for secularism. You are just a sectarian. Mrs SECULAR why you are AFRAID of a direct election?

Maybe once the direct election takes place, then people will vote the same manner to call on Hizb to give up its arms?

Ohh wait! And now you are saying that with this type of government Lebanon has actually made Hizb to give up its arms and made the group to sign something that they don't implement Sharia? I actullay see the opposite on the case of the arms.

You made a very poor case and lame excuses.

You can never tolerate a Shia president, a parliament that would have half MPs from Shia communities and most of the ministers from Shia sect, because as I said you are SECTARIAN.. You want to keep the same sectarian law BECAUSE you know NOTHING about democracy or secularism. You just want to use these terms in Lebanon for your own benefits, since Lebanon is not a place that you could use Salafism or religion instead, like you use religion in Syria, in Saudi, then want to use secularism in Lebanon, in Iraq, in North Yemen, because you are outnumbered in those countries... so Baathist, secularism an Arab nationalism somehow should come and play and protect you from religious fanatics and so called Iranian influence.

I clearly seen 100s of your posts in support of Salafist terrorists in Syria, and even if they overthrow Assad and declare Sharia in that country, you will support them by all means, just as hypocrite Saudis and the hypocrites in the West... Because in Syria that is what it suits you, the religious fanatics against secular government of Assad who is an Iranian ally.

Why you support the Syrian armed opposition who is not only armed but also calls for Sharia laws and chants Allahu Akbar daily to throw the Kafir government of Syria as they claim? Maybe they already signed something that for a million years as you said will not implement Sharia? No they actually called for Sharia once they come to power unlike Hizb in Lebanon.

Edited: to add one more important point: Look at who funds and finance the so called seculars in Lebanon that you favor them, the so called secular Sunni parties and groups in Lebanon. The most fanatic, religious, backward, tribalist, and what not of KINGDOM OF SAUDI ARABIA. They are known as the Wahabi Ahle Saud family who is the main backer of all Wahabi movements and Talebanist governments from Afg/Pak to Africa and and the entire ME.

Edited by Noah-, 20 April 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[Noura]

Quote

LOL what? How this has anything to do with Hizbullah's arms or to write something in constitution that Sharia is not going to be implemented? Since when did ever Hizb fight for Sharia law? Why don't you make Salafis in Lebanon and the loser Palestinians who left their own country and now they are getting together with these Salafist Lebanese in Lebanon to declare their desires for Sharia? If Hizb with all its power did not implement Sharia and never ever said that it is fighting for Sharia laws, then why would it implement once direct elections take place? And who said a HIZB MEMBER will win and become the president or the PM once there is a direct election? Maybe a Sunni who is loved by all communities will win most of the votes and will be elected.

Noah i would support Nayla Tueini or Sammy Gemayel happily for the presidency of lebanon, unlike backwards sectarian people like you i do not think on sect. And I also mentioned two horrible sunni countries that I would never want to live in and who are islamic states pakistan and saudi arabia. and also nasrallah has spoken about the iranian system for lebanon.

Quote

I just wanted to proof that you BS and you have no desire for secularism. You are just a sectarian. Mrs SECULAR why you are AFRAID of a direct election?

I want direct elections in a secular, country with civil laws, and where all minorities, and women's rights are protected, and where there is only one armed force anything other then that could bring in forces that will bring lebanon into backwardness and into opression.

Quote

Salafism or religion instead, like you use religion in Syria, in Saudi, then want to use secularism in Lebanon, in Iraq, in North Yemen, because you are outnumbered in those countries... so Baathist, secularism an Arab nationalism somehow should come and play and protect you from religious fanatics and so called Iranian influence.

Noah in syria thosands have been martyrd for protesting for democracy and the fall of a horrible torturer one party regime, that has murdered thosands of innocents but to you a depraved sectarian propagandist they are all salafist terroist  , i support secular democracy everywhere, whether in syria or iraq or north yemen or bahrain, or the ksa

Edited by Noura, 20 April 2012 - 10:57 PM.

[Noah-]

Noura, on 20 April 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Noah i would support Nayla Tueini or Sammy Gemayel happily for the presidency of lebanon, unlike backwards sectarian people like you i do not think on sect. And I also mentioned two horrible sunni countries that I would never want to live in and who are islamic states pakistan and saudi arabia. and also nasrallah has spoken about the iranian system for lebanon.

Well, of course you don't want to live there, but your favorite parties live there, make their living out of the money and POLITICS of Saudi Arabia.. and we all know how Harriris became millinoaries... so who cares if you 'Noura' live or not.

Quote

http://www.youtube......

That is not something that Hizb hides, that is what the HIZB believes in as a group be it in regards of Imam Mahdi or WF... Didn't you watch the most recent popular videos of Hassan Nasrallah who says that is PART OF WF and believes in WF, BUT will never implement WF in Lebanon because of the countries sectarian divides and the minorities? Why you act dumb and try to say things about the party who never did anything like you suggest. They were Iranian proxies, but now they are the second Taliban who will take over and implement Sharia on Lebanon? What are they waiting for? For a direct election? LOL

Quote

I want direct elections in a secular, country with civil laws, and where all minorities, and women's rights are protected, anything other then that could bring in forces that will bring lebanon into backwardness and into opression.

Why you try to runaway from the discussion? You want direct elections in a secular country, why not in a secular country of Lebanon? How come this CURRENT SECULAR government is acceptable, but once direct election takes place will do all the opposite things? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? A direct election, more democracy and more seuclarism from current stat would go against women rights and against minorities rights? Or you are afraid that Shia majorities will win the most on all types of elections? Why don't you just say that in words?

See how you want to escape, ignore the real issue that doesn't fit your desires and trying to complicate things by bringing unrelated issues.

Quote

Noah in syria thosands have been martyrd for protesting for democracy and the fall of a horrible torturer one party regime, that has murdered thosands of innocents but to you a depraved sectarian propagandist they are all salafist terroist  , i support secular democracy everywhere, whether in syria or iraq or north yemen.

Ohh of course... now lets FORGET SECULARSIM, the armed gang who is now in Syria and promised to kill Alawites, implement Sharia, and you CLEARLY KNOW that majority of those oppostions are MB, Salafists and religious fanatics...but they are actually just protesters who are being killed by Assad's Sharia guys?

And as I said, I don't have any doubt, you clearly will support secularism, Baathism and Arab nationalism in Bahrain, in Iraq, North Yemen, Lebanon and in any country where Sunnis do not have any chances to declare an absolute government... But, let me see if once in your life you will support a secular government in Saudi if the people from Eastern Saudi, the Shias of Saudi will call for a secular government? Or to support a secular government in Syria against oppostion MB and Salafist? A secular government in Jordan and Kuwait? Or an Arab nationalist government in UAE with a Shia nationalist Arab as the president? Of course that never going to happen by your calculations.

Now, don't act so smart by playing around and don't waste my time by replying with same nonsense every 5 mintues..if you don't come up with solid points that makes any sense and links your honesty towards secularism, then I will ignore you and  not reply. You exposed yourself... failed to back up any of your claim concering 'secularism and democracy' and you are one of those kinds who is scared of every single Shia...

[Gypsy]

Noura, on 20 April 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

3. Abolishing article 522 of the penal law, which drops charges against a rapist if he marries his victim

Lebanon also has such backward law as Morocco?

[ShiaBen]

3. Abolishing article 522 of the penal law, which drops charges against a rapist if he marries his victim

Should be up to the victim, not the rapist

I know in Iran, the victim decides (not the rapist):

A) prosecute him and have him executed OR B: the victim for whatever reason chooses to forgive him and marries him.

Edited by ShiaBen, 21 April 2012 - 12:30 AM.

[Ali_Hussain]

Gypsy, on 21 April 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

[/left]
Lebanon also has such backward law as Morocco?

What is this based on exactly? Because surely the man in question would be admitting that he attacked the girl, and commited zina, so through admitting that, should he not then face the islamic penalty for his crime?

[John Al-Ameli]

2,3,4,5,6 have nothing to do with secularism.

Lebanon is impossible to become secular.

Edited by RoAcHy, 21 April 2012 - 04:31 AM.

[Professor Higgins]

Propaganda_of_the_Deed, on 20 April 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

The same one who stood by as their country was getting bombed by Israel? What a joke and a waste of space.

Be polite smartass.

Elections, political parties, Parliament, Ministers - these are all Bull-Sh*t.  What matters is guns, guns, and more guns..  Noah has shown his gullibility and naivete and ranting about the MPs and Ministers and Speakers and all the other parasites.

The real people are always those who hold guns and wear uniforms.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

Professor Higgins, on 29 April 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Be polite smartass.

You mean like that message you sent me sometime back?

Professor Higgins, on 21 March 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Look man, you've been brainwashed by these Shia. I advise you to stay out of this, you know little of Islamic History and you're a sift target for these missionaries and proselytizers. They are scum, they lie.  What nonsense "injustice to Prophet's family" , give me a break. Its thanks to rootless Sunnis like you that today Sunnis are in a weak position in Syria and Iraq and are getting slaughtered up and down the country.

We have no problems with secular Shias, but these religious Ayatollah-loving nutjobs are a threat to humanity. See how they are slaughtering Sunnis in Syria.

Do you before how many Sunnis they slaughtered in Iraq ?  Do you know about the notorious death squads of Muqtada Sadr which works in tandem with the Iraqi Police and targets Sunnis randomly ?  Do you know how the Sunnis of Iraq and Syria are crying out ?   Shame on you and traitors like you, all this "oppression of Ahlul bayt" nonsense is to brainwash ppl like you, and to divide the Muslims and give victory to the Zionists.  This is the gameplan of these Mullahs.

Saddam had it right, the Shia masses must be separated from the Shia clergy, they are a threat to all civilization.  We should befriend and encourage the secular Shias.

[aliasghark]

I would definitely march for “the abolition of institutional sectarianism” in Lebanon.

If Lebanon was a good democracy, Nasrallah would be the president.

[Ricky-Dee]

Noura, on 20 April 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Noah if hezbollah gave up its guns, and if their was written in the constitution of lebanon that an islamic state like that in iran or pakistan or saudi arabia couldn't ever in a billion years be implemented in Lebanon, and that secularism and civil laws and rights for women and minorities were forever protected and the army is the only armed force in lebanon, then I would have no problem with your suggestion of direct elections.

And lebanon is secular compared to other countries in the region, many laws in lebanon are outdated.

I wont comment on the other stupid remarks, but i will ask you if Lebanon has such rights, why cant a child with a Lebanese Mother & non Lebanese father , gain Lebanese citizenship ?

Professor Higgins, on 29 April 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Be polite smartass.

Elections, political parties, Parliament, Ministers - these are all Bull-Sh*t.  What matters is guns, guns, and more guns..  Noah has shown his gullibility and naivete and ranting about the MPs and Ministers and Speakers and all the other parasites.

The real people are always those who hold guns and wear uniforms.

Well the PLO once upon a time had GUNS GUNS GUNS, and what happened to them ? they went from being a tough crew believing in their cause, to being nothing but corrupt lazy uneducated theives , rapists, robbers, who would sell their own brother for a dinar !

The REAL PEOPLE are those who hold their faith in Allah SWT

no wonder why Palestinians have no homeland

[Noura]

Over the past two years the Lebanese have come together twice under the banner of Laïque Pride to denounce Lebanon’s confessional system and demand the establishment of a secular civil state.
This year, on May 6 Laïque Pride will hold its third-annual march in Beirut from Sanayeh Garden to Ain al-Mreisseh.
NOW Lebanon talks to Laïque Pride co-organizer Yalda Younes, who emphasizes that it is only through a civil state that the Lebanese can guarantee the expression of the country’s diversity, and the delivery of social justice – one of the main foundations of peace.

Why did you choose this year’s slogan "Secular March toward Citizenship” as opposed to the previous “March for Secularism”?

Yalda Younes: It expresses the joyful character of the event. We used "Secular March toward Citizenship" because citizenship is the ultimate goal of those participating in the march.

What do you have planned for the event this year?

Younes: The march will start at Sanayeh and end in Ain al-Mreisseh. At Ain al-Mreisseh we will be organizing a Speaker's Corner, inviting each person to answer the question: "How would you change Lebanon?" in less than a minute. Our aim is to encourage free speech, as it is being threatened in our country today, and to give a voice and responsibility to the "ordinary" citizen.

What is different about this year’s march compared to the previous two?

Younes: Last year we supported two laws: the Law for the Protection of Women against Domestic Violence and a Civil Personal Status Law. This year we're also asking for the abolishment of Article 522 in the penal law, the amendment of the Nationality Law for the right of Lebanese women to grant their nationality to their family, the implementation of the draft law prohibiting the pre-censorship of cinema and theatre, and the withdrawal of the draft law LIRA on internet regulation.

For the past year, Arab people have taken to the streets and brought down dictators. What do you hope Laique Pride will achieve in such a context?

Younes: The Laïque Pride started before the Arab Spring and it will continue to take place after it. We hope that the Arab uprisings have given Lebanese citizens more confidence and have increased their sense of responsibility. Up to this point not many Lebanese believed in the necessity of taking to the streets to achieve any goal.  Today, we will see if they have come to realize that change cannot be dictated from “above” and that it can only come from us.

The group Uprising of Women in the Arab World is taking part in the campaign. What is your relation to them, and who else are you collaborating with?

Younes: Laïque Pride belongs to all those who participate in it. It gathers individuals from all social backgrounds and fields, civil society movements, and other groups working for secularism or women’s and human rights. Some of the examples are Nasawiya, the anti-racism movement, the civil society movement, the AUB Secular Club, Jinsiyati, Chamel and more.
The Uprising of Women in the Arab World is a Facebook page advocating for free, independent and fearless women in the Arab world. I created this page along with Diala Haidar as a reaction to the degrading situation of women in the Arab world. Today the page is administered by people from different Arab countries. Our long-term objective is to organize parallel, synchronized actions on the ground in all Arab countries.

Can you give us an idea of what Laïque Pride does in between events?

Younes: Laïque Pride has a lot of plans, but it is still very new, and the core team is quite small, so it will take some time to implement all our demands. Right now our primary objective is to build a strong, solid working team to be able to put our dreams into action. Laïque Pride situates itself in the long term and aims at growing gradually.

What has the movement been able to achieve till now?

Younes: It’s too early to measure achievements. At this level, it was able to gather a huge number of participants without being called on by a political leader. It gathered many organizations under one umbrella. It made citizens aware that they were responsible for changing their lives. It inspired some other similar movements, and it raised awareness on the definition of citizenship, on our rights and duties. Through our campaigns, people have understood that we are defending secularism in the name of equality and pluralism to celebrate our differences.

Many in Lebanon argue that Lebanon's sectarian system is a guarantee of protection to minorities so that no one sect can achieve domination over another. What do you have to say to that?

Younes: Our aim is to all become Lebanese citizens, and once we do, there will no longer be a minority and a majority. Laïque Pride is demanding secularism as part of a total reform toward more democracy, more freedoms and more civil rights. We insist on defending our private and public liberties, on having an independent judiciary, on laws respecting human rights, on the full equality between men and women, on having the religion/sects not interfere in politics or civil life. We’re talking about a whole reform; it doesn't leave a place for authoritarianism.



To read more: http://www.nowlebano...4#ixzz1u3aOr7zG

[Moonshiner]

Lebanon is nothing but a failed state

[Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz]

Lebanon will never be secular,the peoples hearts is what determines the countries composition of being "secular" even if the so called government call themselves as such.....


The real Muslims will continue basing their lives on their religion.


If the wrapper is secular it doesn't mean the contents are....

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz, 08 May 2012 - 10:53 PM.