120 replies to this topic

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

Your understanding and explanation is pretty good but there is a little more to it.

I'm busy and have to go now but will answer as soon as I can.

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

Quote from Post 23:
Thanks you've enlightened me, it makes sense...
So how would you define the people in the trinity? Am I right in saying:
-The father = God, He's alone and none is like him, he created the universe, the people and the law.
-The son = prophet and mediator created and sent by God (but he's not God)
-The holy spirit= is not god but another word or metafor for the presence of God inside peoples hearts through their understanding of the bible (its not a person its a manifestation of the cumulative understanding of what God wants from us, thus making us act righteously, be guided and in essence be inerrant )

Is my definition okay?


Response: --- As I said, your understanding is pretty good, but there is a little more to it, because I have always said, --- ‘trinity’ is a ‘faulty’ doctrine.  
--- (I will not try to cover it all in one post, but I will start from the beginning.)

--- The word ‘trinity’ is not in the NT, neither is there a teaching of trinity, and that is what is wrong with the concept.
The Doctrine of trinity came out of a Church meeting in 325 AD, in what is called the Nicene Creed.
--- The word ‘trinity is a shortening of ‘tri-unity,’ --- which suggests all three are equal, --- which is what the doctrine wrongly says.
--- It came down through the Roman Catholic Church and most Churches accepted it as a basic teaching (but the way it is written it can’t quite be explained).
--- It is a subject rarely mentioned in our Churches because it is not essential to one’s Faith in God, and Salvation. --- (But it is a main topic on Shiachat.)

The Apostle John wrote on some deep subjects that are not completely understood by reading them once, --- or taking them out of their context.
He gives insight that is to be studied, and compared with other Scriptures, to be understood. --- But from which they took part of, to mean a ‘trinity,’ in 1 John 5:
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

This is interesting, that it says “Jesus came by ‘water and blood,’ not by water only.”
--- Without going too deep we can believe that there is a ‘water body’ of Spiritual beings, which is not fully explained, --- But in the OT, and a few times in the NT, there are appearances of angels in human form. --- It is obvious that these are not ‘blood bodies’ because they can appear and disappear in this Spiritual body, --- even as Jesus could appear and disappear after His resurrection.

Let’s accept that this refers to the bodies of angels.
--- Had Jesus came as an ‘Angel’ in a human form, He could have taught the people, performed the healing and miracles that He did by God’s power, --- and at the end ascended to heaven.
But He came by a ‘water and blood’ body to fulfill God’s purpose of a perfect sacrifice for sin, by the shedding of innocent blood.

--- (This follows the pattern of the continual sacrifices of innocent animals in the OT for the remission of sin. --- So Jesus was born on earth and fulfilled all of God’s purpose on earth, and then had to die and shed His blood, as an atonement for the sin of the world. --- [Muslims have trouble with this because they disregard the OT.] --- Had Jesus come as an Angel of God, He could not have died.)

Another Apostle said this in ! Peter 3:  
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

We should not glorify the death of Jesus, but the Resurrection to New Spiritual life. --- The Power of God is demonstrated in the Resurrection. --- It is through the Resurrection of Jesus that believing Christians are given the assurance of salvation. --- So the process of death was necessary before there could be a Resurrection, --- and Jesus then, in a Spiritual body (without blood) could appear and disappear, --- and then ascend to Heaven to sit at the right hand of God.

(Sorry, I don’t want this to get too long, but I will give you the next verse to think about).

7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

--- Notice the three, ---the Father, --- the Word, --- and the Holy Spirit.
--- And notice also, --- that Jesus, the Son, isn’t one of them.

So your statement is right on:
-The son = prophet and mediator created and sent by God (but he's not God)


Placid

[Jaysro]

Thx for the illuminating response!

So as long as you Believe that God sent his (uniquely created, sinless) prophet to die for the sins of humanity because of God's love for us. This prophet is created by God's word 'Be' (or am I completely wrong and the word is a seperate entity with a seperate personality ?)

The holy spirit, the word and the father are one = GOD.

-Jesus was the word made flesh, so he's the word + blood to be sacrificed. (God/Man? God because he had to be an infinite sacrifice?)
-The holy spirit represents God's presence on earth and in our hearts after gaining biblical knowledge. (a person or a metafor? cuz the bible hints at both)
-The father is god's actual presence in the heavens above, where His true glory resides.

So trinity isn't really essential and in fact is very misleading... because I, like others on shiaschat had much difficulty making sense of it all. On shiachat they usually have a problem when you call Jesus God without explaining what exactly it is that makes you call him God since to us his creation doesn't look that much different from Adam yet he is not God. , to muslims jesus is a unique prophet created by God to guide the people. however Jesus doesn't compare to God in any way, even the miracles and the blessings and the times jesus forgave people were by the leave of God not by his own power. But I kind of see that you (kind of) also think according to some similar lines... this clears up some of the confusion.

I'm sorry for the many questionmarks, don't feel obliged to comment on all of them in full detail.

[placid]

Hey, you are understanding it quite well.

Like you say, the belief about a trinity is ‘not really essential and in fact is very misleading.’

(So I will continue) --- I would like to go to your earlier statement about God:
Quote: The father = God, He's alone and none is like him, he created the universe, the people and the law.

Yes, God is God and there is no other.  
The first of the Ten Commandments says, “You shall have no other gods before Me.”
The second commandment says, “You shall not make any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

God is beyond description. Someone said, “God is of Divine Essence that is above Personhood.” --- Therefore, He is alone and none is like Him.
Next: ”He created the universe, the people, --- and all things.”

But how did He create all things?

I believe that Almighty God is above all, and that the Father was His first Manifestation on earth
--- So let’s relate the “Father” to God as a Manifestation of God on earth, that can be understood.

What I mean is this:
In Genesis God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.

If we say that Almighty God is above any image of anything, then this would be contradictory for God to say, “Let Us make man in Our image,” would it not?

--- Also, the word translated as God is Elohim, which is a plural name for God, and it is written in the plural, “Let Us --- ,“ --- as though He is talking to a committee.

Let’s go to the verse in 1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

To find out that they were there in the beginning we can look at Genesis 1:
1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4. And God saw the light, that it was good;

In 1, it says, ‘In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth,
In 2, it says, ‘the Spirit of God was hovering, or moving over the face of the waters.’ --- So, the Holy Spirit of God was there with God in the beginning, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Life that brought life to the sea. (I believe that scientists agree that life on earth started in the sea).

In 3, God said, “Let there be light,” --- and there was light
Here is the ‘action’ of creation. --- God spoke the Word, ‘Let there “Be!” --- and there was.’

This is repeated different times in the Quran where God said ‘Let it “Be!” and it was.’ --- This active part of creation was the Word (Logos) --- Someone has tried to describe the Greek Word Logos as, --- ‘A mediator between God and the ‘matter’ of His creation.”

Notice again v 3, God said, ‘Let there “Be!” --- and there “Was.”
Notice v 4, ‘And God saw the light, that it was good.’
--- It is as though God, the Father said ‘Let there “Be!” --- and the Word (Logos), ---  the action of creation, --- brought the light into being, --- then God ‘saw’ it.

Now let’s recap.
V 2, the Holy Spirit of God was there and acted separately from God in activating life in the sea.
V 3, the Word (Logos) brought light into being at God’s command, and seemingly acted separately from God.

--- So, we can say, God the Father was there, and the Holy Spirit was there, and the Word was there, in the beginning, --- as John said:
  7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

The three acted with different roles, but the Father was the Leader, and the Spirit and the Word responded to the Father’s direction. --- So they were as ‘servants’ to the Father, in the ‘action’ of the creation, were they not? --- They were not co-equal, as a ‘trinity’ suggests, but were in harmony in obedience to God the Father, --- so they were One, or acted as One.

This is still a wonderful mystery, but I want to look next at some verses that show the role of the Word (Logos), when it is capitalized in the Quran.


Placid

[Jaysro]

Elohim => -him  makes a word plural, but isn't this the plural form of respect like the quran? Because in the OT you only found this kind of plural form and the Jews understood that its God, one God. But then in the NT people started giving this more thought and added persons (logos, holy spirit).

The quran for example says 'We created... We ordained... " But no muslim imagines this to mean a multitude of Gods... But indeed like you say we could imagine its God and his servants (in your case Holy spirit and Logos)

But are they persons with devine abilities? Or are they attributes?
Could it be that a metafor has turned into a personality? Because it seems like the logos and the holy spirit are God, but that's impossible if there's yet something above them leading them (The father).

Sorry for my questions its just that I couldn't follow some of the steps

[placid]

Hi,

Quote: Elohim => -him makes a word plural, but isn't this the plural form of respect like the quran? Because in the OT you only found this kind of plural form and the Jews understood that its God, one God. But then in the NT people started giving this more thought and added persons (logos, holy spirit).

Response: --- Yes, it says We, Us and Our in both the OT and the Quran and it is God’s message through whatever Vessel He uses to speak from, --- like the ‘burning bush ‘ in Exodus 3.
I know the Muslims speak of ‘The Royal We,’ --- but there is more to it than that.
--- However, in the NT when Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, it set up a new Father-Son relationship, --- which the Trinitarians misinterpreted as Jesus being ‘God,’ --- so that brings up the subject of two Gods, which is not possible.
Nor is there One God in heaven and one god on earth.

The simple way to understand it is to see our Almighty God as over and above everything that we can understand, or imagine.  --- So when God revealed Himself to man, it had to be through Manifestations.
So, we can say, “One God, --- and three Manifestations.” --- I will give a very understandable example later.

Quote: The quran for example says 'We created... We ordained... " But no muslim imagines this to mean a multitude of Gods... But indeed like you say we could imagine its God and his servants (in your case Holy spirit and Logos)

Response: --- Yes. In the Manifestations, God, The Father, is always the Leader, The Holy Spirit, and the Word,Logos, are obedient to the Leader, so they are as Servants to do His will, --- so there is no disharmony.

Quote: But are they persons with devine abilities? Or are they attributes?
Could it be that a metafor has turned into a personality? Because it seems like the logos and the holy spirit are God, but that's impossible if there's yet something above them leading them (The father).

Response: --- They are Servants to the Father, but they each have the Divine attributes of God and were involved in creation, --- and continue to be involved as Manifestations of God wherever they appear.

Quote: ---    Sorry for my questions its just that I couldn't follow some of the steps

Response: --- I realize it is a new concept to grasp and I may not have expressed it as clearly as I had hoped to, --- but I will give you this simple example.

As humans, we are three part beings, --- Soul, Body, and Spirit.
--- Our Soul includes the brain and the intellect, which is ‘the seat of the emotions.’
--- The Body is the visible part of our being, by which we are recognized.
--- The Spirit is the ‘life force within,’ which we experience but can’t identify.

We are a complicated ‘three – in - one’ --- we are not a ‘trinity’ because that suggests being ‘of co-equal parts,’ --- which we are not.

Let’s suppose that one day a friend says, “We are planning to run a marathon to raise money to advertise our cause.”
--- The Spirit responds quickly and says, “Sure, --- it sounds like fun”
--- The Soul says ‘to the Spirit’ --- “Is this a worthy cause?”
--- The Spirit responds, “Perhaps not, but it’s an outing with our friend.”
--- The Body says, “If it involves physical exercise, I am too tired.’

--- so the Soul and the Body are not in favor,  --- and the Soul DECIDES to ‘overrule’ the Spirit, and says, “The better part of wisdom says we shouldn’t go.”
--- So the Body says to the friend, “Sorry, but I won’t be going.”

Why should the Body not say, “Sorry, but WE won’t be going.”

We are a three – in – one, but how many of US are there, --- just one being.

--- While the Spirit may have ‘zest for life and activity’
--- The Body is too tired to respond,
--- So the Soul (intellect) DECIDES. And the Spirit and Body have to go along with the decision, --- do THEY not?

With God’s Manifestations, they are in agreement and they are One in obedience to God, the Father.

I will get to the Scripture verses later, and show you where Muhammad identifies God, --- the Word, --- and the Holy Spirit in a verse, --- but says “Don’t say Three, --- God is only One.”


Placid

[Jaysro]

Ah, I can follow your logic now and it makes sense that even if the body doesn't want to do something the mind can force it. The mind can't do anything without the body and vice versa so they are with the spirit 3 parts of one.

I'll have to digest the matter a bit more before being able to put the same logic to God mainly because of the different and unequal personalities involved...bit by bit things will solve themselves I guess

You have a pretty unique way of understanding the bible and it makes a lot more sense than what I've been reading, do you belong to a certain sect and do you believe in the inerrancy of the bible?

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

Quote: You have a pretty unique way of understanding the bible and it makes a lot more sense than what I've been reading, do you belong to a certain sect and do you believe in the inerrancy of the bible?

--- Thank you for your compliments,
I belong to a local Evangelical Church and I am nothing special, I just ask the Lord to reveal His word, and He does, often comparing the Scriptures one with another. --- If a Bible has a cross reference, it is very helpful, --- but I study it as it is written in the Scripture, --- not in Church doctrine, or other peoples’ sermons.

James 1:5.   If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.


Quote: Do you believe in the inerrancy of the Bible?


--- Because I believe God, I accept the Bible as His word. --- I simply have ‘faith with no doubting’ --- then I don’t have to wonder about how things happened.
--- There may be small discrepancies in the language in different translations, but there are no changes in the Message of the OT and the NT.
--- The problems usually arise in a man’s interpretation, and his attitude towards God and the Scriptures, --- whether he is a learner or a critic.

When one man’s faulty interpretation gains popularity, it can lead to division, whereas, if everyone relates to the Scripture itself, --- they can stay on track.

But what verifies to me that the Bible is accurate and trustworthy is that God approved it as it was written in 625 AD. --- The Canon of Scripture was complete in 400 AD, so in 625, the Quran CONFIRMED it. --- Surah 3 says:
2. God! There is no god but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4. Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). --- Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

--- (If you reason this through, --- in 625, the Bible, which was translated into Greek, Latin, Coptic, Armenian, Arabic, and other languages at that time, must have had no real errors or God would not have approved it as ‘the Truth,’ to Muhammad, --- would He?)


--- I want to give you the verse I mentioned before.

--- The situation seems to be that some Christians who believed in the trinity, either came asking Muhammad his opinion, or wanting to discuss their understanding of it with him, --- And this was his response in Surah 4:
171. People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - God is only One God.

“People of the Scriptures,” --- obviously Christians, because Jews didn’t believe in Jesus as their Messiah, or believe in a trinity.
--- “Don’t exaggerate” --- In my understanding, the faulty doctrine of trinity exaggerates the truth.
“The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary was only a Messenger of God.” --- We must consider this. --- He was the promised Messiah, He was indwelt by the Spirit of God and the Word of God, --- but He was just the Messenger. “Wow.”

“Only a Messenger of God (the Father), --- and (a Messenger) of the Word (Logos), which He (God) conveyed unto Mary (through His Holy Spirit), --- and (a Messenger) of the (Holy) Spirit from Him (God).

So there you have Jesus as the Messenger and witness of the Three from Heaven.
1 John 5:7. “For there are three that bear witness in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.”
--- So Jesus was the Messenger of all three, was He not?

But Muhammad goes on to say:
“So believe in God and His messengers,” --- I believe he was referring to Jesus and himself.

“And say not ‘Three’ Cease. (It is) better for you, “ --- To talk in terms of trinity is not good. --- Each of the Three have their own roles, but --- Muhammad said:
“God is only One God.”      

This confirms the Scripture in 1 John 5:7, does it not?


Placid

[Jaysro]

Hi Placid,

Quote:“Only a Messenger of God (the Father), --- and (a Messenger) of the Word (Logos), which He (God) conveyed unto Mary (through His Holy Spirit), --- and (a Messenger) of the (Holy) Spirit from Him (God). So there you have Jesus as the Messenger and witness of the Three from Heaven.

This was an interesting theory and pretty plausible at first but when I listened to the verse in arabic I can only understand it in one way which says Jesus is a messenger and a word and a spirit of God (which also goes in conformity with other verses about Jesus)  

Jesus was one of the more unique messengers having the special status of being created individually like Adam whereas all of humanity came from the seed of Adam. Nontheless the quran taches us that all messengers are equal and were sent for one purpose which is to spread the message of God and ask people to acknowledge and submit their will to God ""islam"" (I can understand your frustration though, Jesus pbuh was pretty unique, he'll also come back in the end of times)

Quote: "James 1:5. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind."

I completely agree with James 1:5 When in doubt go back to God. Its a great thing when someone thinks for himself and doesn't take all the words of rabbis and priests as truth instead of the word of God.

Muslims obviously do believe God has sent down the gospel of Jesus and sura 3 makes it an article of faith to believe in it (and its inerrancy since it is the word of God). So in islam we do believe that the Injil sent down on us was inerrant, but we also believe that its sent down in Jesus' lifetime and that its now not longer with the masses anymore.

It was a collection of people after Jesus who started writing about Jesus pbuh and their experiences with him. A muslim wouldn't really be off target if he called it hadith; except that all the writers claim to have been inspired by the holy spirit. The church knew that obviously not ALL of them could have been inspired since some contained nostic elements and some contained errors and so on.. so they started making a selection of what does and what doesn't belong in the bible according to their best knowledge, good intentions (and desires).

The thing goes wrong when you start asking yourself questions of how these mere humans could accurately choose what does and what doesn't stay in the bible? That would obviously be a problem from a muslim point of view, but a christian would answer that it got solved by them having the Holy Spirit guide them to make the right choices.

Since 2 years ago I decided to take on the challenge of the quran when it claims to be perfectly logical and scientifically accurate and decided not to believe anything in islam untill its proven, so for a while I distanced myself from shia islam reading and questioning every little thing I didn't understand in pursuit of the truth of God and his eternal message to humankind. It was also one of the reasons why I started reading about christianity.

As a muslim when I look at the quran and islamic way of life and put it next to the bible I can see that some things are vague so I stay away from them but other things in my view are not acceptable (for example prophets of God commiting big sins or some violent chapters that to me make no sense). Sometimes you see the same violence in the quran but with a different set of rules making it more acceptable (stoning of women).  In the end the claim that there are errors in the bible or quran isn't that important I think because even if we find a so called error in the bible or quran today, we both obviously won't budge since we have faith. Its only when you find more and more irrefutable errors that my shield would start cracking. Talking about errors won't bring us any further since we both have 101 ""solutions"" to each one... people only become fanatic in the end (except if they turn back to James 1:5)


To go back to the point:
I do believe in the injil of Jesus,sent down in his lifetime. The bible to me is like a mix between the Quran and the hadith in one big book. So I accept most of it and reject some (mostly the doctrines Paul added to the belief) which brings me to the question of what your thoughts are on original sin and the sacrifice of Jesus.

Sorry for my open questions, if you don't have time don't feel obliged to answer immediately its just that I think you would explain it in a proper way making me if not believing it at least accept it like with the trinity concept.

[placid]

Hi,

Thank you for your response, and your thought on James' statement, which I want to discuss later.
--- But I want to finalize this subject first.

Quote:“Only a Messenger of God (the Father), --- and (a Messenger) of the Word (Logos), which He (God) conveyed unto Mary (through His Holy Spirit), --- and (a Messenger) of the (Holy) Spirit from Him (God). So there you have Jesus as the Messenger and witness of the Three from Heaven.

This was an interesting theory and pretty plausible at first but when I listened to the verse in arabic I can only understand it in one way which says Jesus is a messenger and a word and a spirit of God (which also goes in conformity with other verses about Jesus)


Let me explain a little further:
--- Quite a while ago we mentioned that in the OT and the Quran God spoke of We, Us and Our, --- all relating to Himself?

Then I mentioned the coming of Jesus and the Father-Son relationship?
Then the introduction of the Word (Logos), and the Holy Spirit, as Muhammad expresses it in the above verse 4:171?

I used the analogy of a human being, being soul (intellect), body, and spirit. --- yet just being one person

Assuming that the trinitarians mentioned to Muhammad, about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, --- then he would say, "Don't exaggerate. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God." --- (This is saying that Jesus was not one of the three from Heaven) --- then the verse goes on to say, "A Messenger of God, and His Word, which He conveyed into Mary. and a Spirit from Himself (God)." --- So Muhammad identifies the three, God, His Word, and His Spirit. --- Then he says, "Don't say Three,--- God is only One God."

I am sorry if I confused you in this, but it must have been that the visitors mentioned the three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, --- and Muhammad corrected them by saying, God, His Word, and His Spirit. --- which is simply saying that Jesus wasn't one of the Three in Heaven. --- And then he said, "Don't say Three, Cease, it is better for you. God is only One God."
--- That is what I say too, it would be better if we don't mention it again. (But it keeps coming back.)

I agree with Muhammad on this verse because he says, Stop saying Three, --- And I see it as One God, and three Manifestations of Himself, --- and they were each involved in the birth of Jesus, and Jesus was the Messenger of the New Covenant.


I want to give you a few more verses which give the final message of who the Word (Logos) was.

John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
2. The same was in the beginning with God
3. All things were made through Him, ---(the Word, Logos)  

I had said before concerning The Word in Genesis 1:3, that when God said, "Let the 'Be' ligtht, that the Word (Logos) produced the light. --- That verified that He was in the beginning with God. And while it says "He was God" I see Him as the Manifestation of God, and as the 'action' part of God's creation.

Anyway, here is the verse that tells us that the Word (Logos) was in Jesus. John 1:
14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John said, "WE beheld His glory," --- so they were eye-witnesses.)

--- So the Word, took on the form of flesh in the Person of Jesus, and indwelt Jesus through His life on earth
Jesus could speak in His human voice, but the Word (Logos) could also speak through Him as the voice of God.

So we can say Jesus had a human body, and a Divine Spirit, or inner Being.

But He fulfilled His role as a Prophet and Messenger, as well as being the Messiah.


Placid

[Jaysro]

Hi Placid

I like the explenation for John 1:1  I don't find a problem accepting the theory of God and 3 manifestations which would mean that all three were God. I would accept it better than the theory of seperate parts of God which each has its "own" personality but with one big boss, since the only thing defining a being is its personality and God is omnipotent, omnicient, omnipresent. So it would be easier for me to accept any concept which allows only one personality and one entity (which is able to manifest itself however it wishes) since different personalities eventually lead to conflict.

I hope I'm not confusing

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

Quote from Post 36:
I like the explanation for John 1:1 I don't find a problem accepting the theory of God and 3 manifestations which would mean that all three were God. I would accept it better than the theory of separate parts of God which each has its "own" personality but with one big boss, since the only thing defining a being is its personality and God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. So it would be easier for me to accept any concept which allows only one personality and one entity (which is able to manifest itself however it wishes) since different personalities eventually lead to conflict.


--- Yes, right on. --- I think we can say that ‘This is the wonderful mystery of God,’ --- or that ‘God is the wonderful Mystery.’

--- I believe we draw the same conclusion: --- that ‘There is no God but Almighty God,’ --- and, ‘Because He is Almighty, He can Manifest Himself however, He desires.’

While I don’t like to carry the comparison too far, of --- ‘God’ --- and  the way He made us in our ‘human body,’ --- nevertheless, this comparison is already written in 1 Corinthians 12:
14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?
18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.
19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.
23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,
24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,
25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

--- One more little illustration of the ‘body.’
Suppose your friend has a Birthday, and you want to acknowledge it,
--- First, the thought is prompted by your memory (intellect) because of the date on the Calendar (an external reminder),
So you walk (using your body) to the telephone and your memory (intellect) gives you the number. --- You select the number with your fingers (body), --- you lift the phone to your ear (more parts of the body) --- the external action rings on the other end of the line, --- and when the desired other voice says, “Hello,” --- your voice (spirit of life) sings ‘Happy Birthday.’

[Jaysro]

Your example has its point and I can accept the logic as an outsider, but as a muslim its difficult to fit this to God since it forbidden to give God any physical attributes, because that would mean God has a shape and if something has a shape it can be contained and if something can be contained then it cannot claim to be God since its not infinite.

In islam when the quran says "I will create Adam in my image" it means that Adam will be independent and have free will to do as he pleases (like God) so its not that God is a man in the sky with a beard, God is formless, He is everything and everywhere, He is not contained by space nor time.

it it wasn't for John 1.1 would you as a christian  be able to accept Jesus not as a part of God but as a mere creation created by this infinite formless God and blessed with powers and wisdom from God so he can act as a guide and leader for us on earth?

[placid]

Quote: Your example has its point and I can accept the logic as an outsider, but as a muslim its difficult to fit this to God since it forbidden to give God any physical attributes, because that would mean God has a shape and if something has a shape it can be contained and if something can be contained then it cannot claim to be God since its not infinite.


Yes, I'm sorry, --- The comparison is no more than a word illustration, and because God is beyond any image of our imagination, that is the reason we can't accept the concept that Jesus is God, because Jesus had shape and form. --- Our God is:

Sovereign,

Transcendent

Omnipotent

Omniscient

Omnipresent

Self existant

Self sufficient


--- You have asked some interesting questions and I will get to them. we will look at the coming of the Messiah without John i:1 and 14.

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

Quote from Post 34:
Quote: "James 1:5. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind."

I completely agree with James 1:5 When in doubt go back to God. Its a great thing when someone thinks for himself and doesn't take all the words of rabbis and priests as truth instead of the word of God.


Response: That is the thing to do with all of our needs, and especially with our doubts, --- to take them back to God. --- However, when we start to doubt something, we are apt to look for answers in the advice of others, are we not?
--- If we are truly going to apply what James said, we have to determine what the truth of God is, and believe it only. --- The following verses verify the inspiration of God in both the Old and New Testaments:

2 Peter 1:16. For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. --- Matthew 17:1-6.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved (inspired) by the Holy Spirit

Also it gives this verification in 2 Timothy 3:
16. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

--- (Notice in this verse in 2 Peter 1:19, it says, --- ‘Until the light shines in a dark place’ --- ‘until the day dawn’ --- ‘and the morning star rises in your hearts.’  --- These are terms that speak of ‘Spiritual Enlightenment’ that is given by the inspiration or ‘indwelling’ of the Holy Spirit of God.)

--- This inspiration was given to Muhammad. --- notice this verse in Surah 42:
52. And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it (the revelation) a Light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,

--- So Muhammad was ‘called,’ through the angel Gabriel, and then ‘inspired’ by the Holy Spirit of God to fulfill the Mission that God called him to.

How did Muhammad handle his problems when the Jews began to oppose him early in his ministry in Madinah? --- It says in Surah 2, that ‘he turned his face upward to heaven.’
144.   We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship (in Mecca), and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

--- (This offended the Jewish leaders even more because (Mr Pickthall’s  intro says that) --- before this they had been facing Jerusalem in prayer, which gave the Jews some hope that Muhammad was still under their influence.)

In turning his face to heaven for guidance, Muhammad was doing what James had written, --- “If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God who gives to all liberally without reproach, and it will be given to him.”

Later in the same Surah God gave this instruction:
177.  It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness - to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Apostles; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.

--- While they were instructed to turn toward Mecca when they prayed, which was where Muhammad had received his calling as well as the first Surahs, in the first half of his mission --- he was given the indication (and later a vision) that they would be returning to Mecca.

--- Yet the concentration in prayer was not the direction one faced, but what one believed in his heart.

I know that our customary position of humility in prayer is on our knees, facing down, but we can be on our knees and look up to God in praise and adoration, as well.
When I am driving in the car and praying, I am sitting, looking straight ahead, with my hands on the wheel and my senses aware of the job at hand, --- but my mind can be in tune with God in prayer.

--- I wonder if Muhammad continued praying at times, with his face uplifted to heaven for guidance, --- in the many problems he encountered in bringing the people back to faith in God.


Placid

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

To continue with comments from Post 34:
Quote: Muslims obviously do believe God has sent down the gospel of Jesus and sura 3 makes it an article of faith to believe in it (and its inerrancy since it is the word of God). So in islam we do believe that the Injil sent down on us was inerrant, but we also believe that its sent down in Jesus' lifetime and that its now not longer with the masses anymore.


Response: --- If you are going to go with Faith as James suggests, then you can’t let reason take you away from it.
Let’s look at your statement:
Quote: We “do believe God has sent down the gospel of Jesus and sura 3 makes it an article of faith to believe in it (and its inerrancy since it is the word of God).”


Response: --- The evidence that it was the word of God, and accurate, is that it was ‘confirmed’ in Surah 3 in 625 AD which was 225 years after the Canon of Scripture was completed and translated into the common languages.

Consider this, --- that Surah 3 was in the Arabic Quran, was it not? So, what does it say in Arabic? --- If God approved it in Arabic, the language of Muhammad, --- that is evidence that the Torah and the Gospels (as they are written) were there for God to ‘confirm and approve of,’ --- does it not?
--- Also, it is the same as we have today, --- to check this you can find online the Codex Siniaticus which is from about 400 AD and the English translation is the same as the King James Bible.

Quote: So in islam we do believe that the Injil sent down on us was inerrant, but we also believe that its sent down in Jesus' lifetime and that its now no longer with the masses anymore.


Response: --- From the time I have come on Shiachat, Muslims have referred to the Injil as a book, --- so therefore, a lost book, --- which is wrong.
Notice again in Surah 3:
45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
48. "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,”

--- Do you have the image that God gave Jesus a set of books to study? --- Jesus was given the knowledge through His intellect. --- How do you suppose he could speak as a child in the cradle and say He was the Servant of God?  
19:30. He spake (from the cradle): Lo! I am the servant of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

So if Jesus had received the revelation of Scripture and knowledge then, --- it had to have been given through His intellect, --- don’t you agree?  

And Jesus said to His disciples, “All that I have received, I have given unto you.”
John 17:8.  For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

Surah 5:117.  I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things;

Quote: and that it (the Gospel Injil) is now no longer with the masses anymore.


Response: --- It is still with the Christians.  Every NT contains the Gospel of Jesus. --- If you want to read everything that Jesus said, then get a Red Letter Edition, which is available in different modern translations, --- and read the words of Jesus only. --- Besides, this is a fast way to read through the Gospel accounts.

(Enough for now)


Placid

[Jaysro]

Hi Placid,

Its always enlightening reading your posts, I agree on the most part with the first and second one.
Yes I believe Jesus recieved not only the book but also the wisdom behind every verse of the book when he was still an infant. I believe Jesus thought his disciples everything he knew and I believe they wrote down everything they knew honestly and faithfully, but the people who misused the scripture and wrote in there according to their own understanding were actually the culprits. The Injil/gospel of Jesus came down on us perfectly and was relayed to the deciples and the followers perfectly, but when time passed it got infiltrated. (almost the same story with sunni and shia islam... both sects think they still follow the true teachings)

As a muslim who believes the quran is the perfection of Abraham message, I am obliged to read the bible wearing my "quran filter". Everything that doesn't go along with the quran I'm forced to reject. Up till now you have cleared up a lot of confusion especially when you explained trinity and Jesus' status. But there are still things I cannot accept. And if that is the case this means that there is something wrong with the gospel rather than with the quran.

Don't get me wrong! I do believe that a huge amount of the injil is still with us in these 27 books, but I can't accept that all of it is of Holy origins since for example it contradicts the crucifiction story of the quran while in islam the apostles saw Jesus getting raised up alive before Judas came with the soldiers. Paul wrote 14 of the 27 books and he preaches the "death and resurrection gospel" (Original Sin) which jesus didn't mention anything about and the apostles didn't understand untill later...

You seem to know a lot about the quran which is pretty rare for christians since the quran is logically written by the devil. What do you think of islam, quran and Muhammad?

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

I will answer your last questions first:
Quote: You seem to know a lot about the quran which is pretty rare for christians since the quran is logically written by the devil. What do you think of islam, quran and Muhammad?


After the tregedy of 9/11, when so much was being said about terrorism and so much negative about Muslims, as a 'free thinker' I wanted to examine Islam.

--- It was actually a few years before 9/11 that in the place I worked, a box of books came in and in sorting them there was a Pickthall Translation of the Quran.
--- With casual interest at the time I put it on my bookshelf with the thought that one day I would read it.

So, after 9/11 with interest I began to look at it. and when I came on Shiachat, I said that I wanted to learn about Islam. A Moderator at that time said, "If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran."

I did, --- and I made notes. --- I am not sure whether all the Pickthall Translations have the history of Muhammad, from his calling by the vision of the angel Gabriel, to his death, but this one has.

His Mission was to destroy idolatry from his people, which he did, --- and bring peace, which he announced at the completion of his Mission at his "Farewell Pilgrimage" shortly before he died. And Mr Pickthall included the contribution that he made to his own people and to society at that time

I read and studied Surahs the way I study the Bible and found it very compatible with the former Scriptures.

You will find that surprising, --- as Christians aren't perceived as being open to the Quran. --- What I have found is that in most of my discussions here I use the Quran and the NT together, and that seems to 'irk' some posters, --- so I just keep responding as the Lord leads me, until they see the point that the Scriptures in both are coming from God, --- or they perhaps grit their teeth and leave for awhile.

I can say I have learned to 'love' Muhammad as a prophet of God (Such a thought is not very acceptable among Christians).
--- He is maligned and rejected by most people because they identify Muhammad with terrorists, and the terrorists have done the greatest injustice to Muhammad because of the Creed that they use, "There is no God but God and Muhammad is his prophet."

This pictures our God as an angry, murdurous god, and muhammad as his leader. (Isn't that rather sad?)


I am speaking to you plainly because I perceive that you are a genuine person, and have spoken to me that way, and I thank you for your compliments

Finally, I honor Muhammad as a Prophet of God to his generation, I read and study the Quran and accept the revelatoions as from God, --- But Islam, has changed from meaning "Surrender to God," --- to mean 'Surrender unto our Regime.'  

Sorry, --- but that is kind of 'the word on the street,' --- and not necessarily from Christians.


Placid

[Jaysro]

Hi,

No doubt that islam has changed...  

You might remember the promise of Iblis to Allah when he was cast out of heaven: He promised that he would lead away Adam from the path of Allah using all means necessary. It became his soul purpose on earth to infiltrate, pervert and destroy all form of monotheistic religion. That's exactly what he's doing these days; he infiltrated Judaism, Christianity and Islam.  Shia are supposed to be the "true muslims" (proof is clear to be honest) but we only make about 20% of all the muslims on earth and from those 20% probably 5 % are extremists who either don't care about religion or care to extremes.... pretty sad actually.

You are extremely unique in saying that you're a christian yet believe in Muhammad and in the Quran as the word of God! I've only heard of people like you till now . Isn't it hard for you to accept both religions since the quran contradicts the bible on some key concepts? The death and resurrection of Jesus for the original sin for example.

you've left me confused hehe

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

Thank you for  your understanding.

I still want to answer a couple of your questions from before, and then we will get to the issuas of original sin, death and resurrection.

And if we follow the Faith of Abraham we are not following 2 religions, but living by the kind of faith that James talks about.

That gives us freedom. We have nothing to defend, nothing to prove, and nothing to hide. Therefore I am open to discussing all the Scripture from both the Bible and the Quran.
--- (Someone said, "We don't have to defend the Scripture, you might as well defend a roaring lion. Let it out, it will defend itself.)  

While you use your Quranic glasses to read the Scriptures, I try to give you a different pair of lenses.

I don't believe in Islam as it has become, but I believe in the original meaning of Al-Islam, --- The Surrender.

Surah 3:52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims (surrendered ones).
53. "Our Lord(God)! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); then write us down among those who bear witness."

(I like these verses that seem to put us all together.)

[Jaysro]

Hi Placid,

God sent a chain of messengers and the last was Muhammad who in sura of the Tablespread told us that he finally perfected for us the abrahamic religion and chosen for us al islam. (shia's celebrate that day "3eed al Gadeer")

I have to agree with you there since if you follow true christianity, true judaism or true islam you're following the same religion which is like you said "Al Islam" (peacefully surrendering yourself to the will of the one God above)

Its highly simplified to say it like this but Islam is like an update to what came before, so there are still many questions here but I'll give you space to answer the previous ones

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

Quote from Post 42:
Yes I believe Jesus recieved not only the book but also the wisdom behind every verse of the book when he was still an infant. I believe Jesus thought his disciples everything he knew and I believe they wrote down everything they knew honestly and faithfully,

Response: --- Now that is faith, as James said, --- but you are harboring some doubts about the Scriptures we have today, --- whether they are the same as they were written.
The same disciples who were with Jesus wrote the Scriptures in Greek. --- You don’t find any place in the NT where anyone said, “Don’t believe this, I made it up.” --- You don’t find in the Quran where it says, “Don’t believe the story of Jesus, the Christians just made it up.”

But when I read the Quran, through my ‘OT&NT’ glasses, I saw, ‘The evidence is there in Surah 19 that one of the first things Muhammad taught his followers was the miraculous birth of John the Baptist, and the virgin Birth of Jesus.’ --- (So they all had the knowledge of Christianity.)

I found this quote about the Quran in Post 8 on the topic ‘Compilation of Quran’:  

"Our belief is that the Quran which Allah revealed to His Prophet
Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two covers (daffatayn).
And it is the one which is in the hands of the people, and is not
greater in extent than that. The number of surahs as generally
accepted is one hundred and fourteen ...And he who asserts that we say
that it is greater in extent than that, is a liar."

Shi'i reference: Shi'ite Creed (al-I'tiqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh
Saduq, English version, p77. --- End of quote.

--- When I see these as the only Surahs that God gave through Gabriel to Muhammad, I can believe the Quran. --- This is why I say in some writing, This is Quran 1, --- and anything from hadiths or narrations is Quran 2.  

Quote: but the people who misused the scripture and wrote in there according to their own understanding were actually the culprits. The Injil/gospel of Jesus came down on us perfectly and was relayed to the deciples and the followers perfectly, but when time passed it got infiltrated. (almost the same story with sunni and shia islam... both sects think they still follow the true teachings)


Response: --- This you have heard from Quran 2 because the OT we have today is the same as the 39 Books of the Bible that the Palestinian Jews had in the time of Jesus. --- It was translated into Greek from 250-150 BC, and has not been lost since then.
--- The only differences were the choice of words of the translators from Greek to English.  
The NT was written by the disciples and Apostles who lived through it and wrote it for future generations, and it has not been changed or added to.
There are some 4500 manuscripts and fragments of the Books of the NT, in Museums today, so, it was preserved through the years.

Remember Surah 3:
3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4. Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

--- In the third year of the Hijrah when this was revealed, it was only part of the Quran, as more Surahs were revealed later, but this “truth” to Muhammad is “confirming what went before it.”

So, as we said before, --- If God approved it in in AD 625, and there have been no changes since, --- What you have heard has been someone else’s teaching.

This is why I accept Muhammad as the Prophet that God called to bring his people back to God.
---- When you see the Quran as an ‘update,’ --- are there any new laws in the Quran?
Is there any new teaching that is not in the former Scriptures?

---- At any rate, don’t believe this because I have said it ‘in a convincing way,’ but continue to ponder it as I know you will.

I know I am an exception to the ‘norm’ that I believe the Quran, --- but it is because Christians don’t study the Quran, but they learn from what the media and Muslims say, --- that they see it presently as man’s religion, because everything about it seems to be contrary to the love of God.

So, I believe the Bible and the Quran, as ‘The Book’ referred to in 3:3-4,  and again three verses later:
7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings. --- But no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

And because I believe that ‘The Book’ refers to all the Scriptures revealed from God, I can ask in faith as James said, “with no doubting.”


Placid

[Jaysro]

Its a new perspective, but I see your points: Indeed the hadith and the quran are very seperate sometimes and "the book" is only one book and has always been one book brought down from Allah with one message.

I don't understand your claim about the bible being preserved since the quran said it came to confirm what came before it. Since the quran also says: "they have taken the words of priests and rabbies next to Allah". To me this refers to some priests and rabbies who used to write in the bible claiming they were inspired by the Holy spirit. (paul?)
)
The bible differs on important matters from the quran, as a simple example: the prophets and their stories are sometimes fundamentally different in quran and bible, they can't both be right. Quran said Jesus didn't get crucified nor die but raised up alive, this also means that there was no debt to be paid or original sin to be forgiven since jesus didn't die on the cross. Paul's 14 books revolve heavily on the death and resurrection of Jesus and caused some huge differences between islam and christianity.

In shia islam we say that the quran is nothing more than a book as long as you don't have the right people to explain it. The quran can't call itself infallible if not interpreted by infallibles (hence the infalibility of our 12 imams on islamic subjectmatter). The quran says that you can find in its poetry and metafors whatever your perverted minds desire and only those with knowledge shall be able to understand.  If you leave the interpretation of the holy book to us without a guide then it can only result in different opinions and philosophical perspectives, sufies, ash'arites, ...

Since you came from a christian background it seems pretty fair that you'd be taking a careful approach to Quran1 and Quran2. But islam is 70% quran 30% hadith and you cannot seperate these 2, just like you can't seperate the quran from Ahlulbayt (12 imams). Yes its true some hadith are less certain, but many are very certain, and in the quran Allah says that everything muhammad says is revealed to him and he says nothing out his own desires. Hadith are from Allah just like the quran and the bible is.

sorry for the open questions, I merely wish to pursue truth and learn nothing else.

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

Thank you for your detailed understanding.
I will comment on only one point, and then I want to start with the ‘original sin,’ because this is one of the basic questions.

Quote: I don't understand your claim about the bible being preserved since the quran said it came to confirm what came before it. Since the quran also says: "they have taken the words of priests and rabbies next to Allah". To me this refers to some priests and rabbies who used to write in the bible claiming they were inspired by the Holy spirit.


Response: --- You didn’t give the reference in the Quran, but I assume that verse is from this passage from Surah 2, --- which speaks of the unbelieving Jews who rejected Muhammad’s teaching, and who had rejected their own Scriptures, writing what they wanted to teach. --- But this didn’t change what was written in the Scriptures from hundreds of years before. --- There are even some of their ‘changes’ in the context of this passage from Surah 2:

74.Then, even after that, your hearts were hardened and became as rocks, or worse than rocks, for hardness. For indeed there are rocks from out which rivers gush, and indeed there are rocks which split asunder so that water floweth from them. And indeed there are rocks which fall down for the fear of Allah. Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
75. Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly?
76. And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe. But when they go apart one with another they say: Prate ye to them of that which Allah hath disclosed to you that they may contend with you before your Lord concerning it? Have ye then no sense?
77. Are they then unaware that Allah knoweth that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim?
78. Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess.
79. Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
80. And they say: The Fire (of punishment) will not touch us save for a certain number of days. --- Say to them: Have ye received a covenant from Allah - truly Allah will not break His covenant - or tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?
81. Nay, but whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire; they will abide therein.
82. And those who believe and do good works: such are rightful owners of the Garden. They will abide therein.

Notice verse 78: --- There are those who are unlettered, who only know the Scriptures from heresay, --- so the Priests and scribes teach them what they have written rather than what is in the Scripture (but that doesn’t change the Scripture, because they would have to gather every copy of the Bible to change it.)

Notice verse 79: --- Those who write the Scripture with their own hand (their own version), and then say, “This is from God.” --- And then they sell it for a profit for themselves. --- But God says, “Woe unto them for what their hands have written.” (That is evidence that they didn’t copy it from the Scriptures, bur wrote it themselves.)

Notice verse 80: --- And they say, “The fire of punishment shall not touch us except for a certain number of days.” --- (That is what they have written and taught to others, but it is not in any Scripture, is it?)

And notice Verse 81:  --- (What does God say about what they have written with their own hand and have taught to others?) --- “Nay, but whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire; they will abide therein.”
--- (To abide therein, means they will stay there, --- and not get out in certain days, --- just because they believe that apart from their sins they were God’s chosen people, so would eventually go to heaven.)

By Contrast, notice verse 82: --- The blessings of the righteous, who believe God and His word and do His good works. They inherit their place in the Garden of God and dwell therein.

(I will begin next with “original sin” and we can catch up on other questions later.)


Placid

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

The general understanding of ‘original sin’ is as follows:
Quote: Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam. --- End of quote.

While this is recorded as the first sin of man, there had to be ‘sin’ before this, because they were ‘tempted’ to sin by an outside voice, the devil (Iblis).

Therefore --- the beginning of sin or the ‘origin of sin’ had to have been before Adam and Eve.
--- And, since it is understood that ‘God made everything,’ --- then the conclusion is often drawn that ‘God made sin.’

So, let’s look at how sin ‘developed’ before Adam and Eve, --- which is evident in the Scriptures and in Surah 7.

In the writing of the Prophets, there is what is called ‘interwoven Prophecies,’ --- which are spoken by the Prophet through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
---While the Prophet doesn’t understand what he has said, it is recorded as a Prophecy, to be fulfilled in the future.

For example, --- in Isaiah 7 there is a prophecy given which the Jews couldn’t understand, except that it was a promise for future fulfillment.
The prophecy was spoken in response to King Ahaz, --- but it speaks beyond him in saying, “O house of David!” --- So the prophecy, was interwoven into the conversation, but this prophecy was not fulfilled in their generation. Here it is:

14. Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

--- (This was prophesied over 700 years before Jesus was born.)

And the prophecy is fulfilled in Matthew 1:
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.


--- The origin of sin is also revealed through ‘interwoven prophecies’

(I quote this from the Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary.)
--- THE ORIGIN OF SATAN
How did Satan originate? --- “God is Love,“ and God is holy. --- Because Love is His predominating characteristic, God desired to surround His throne with creatures who He might love, and by whom He might be loved. Because of His holiness, these creatures must also be holy; and by logical necessity love and holiness cannot be forced. Compulsory love or holiness would not be either love or holiness, and could not satisfy the all-wise Creator. Therefore, these loving and holy creatures must be endowed with the ability to choose whether “to glorify God and enjoy Him forever” or to reject Him and suffer the consequences. The story of the beginning of sin is nowhere related explicitly in the Word; but certain passages seem to hint so strongly that the following theory has long been held to explain them. --- Isaiah 14:12-15  is apparently directed to “the King of Babylon” and Ezekiel 28:12-17 similarly to “the Prince of Tyre,” but in each case the Prophet uses language which could not truly and literally refer to any mere man.
--- Apparently God first peopled the universe, or at least our part of it, with a hierarchy of holy angels, of whom one of the orders was (or contained) the Cherubim. One of them, perhaps the highest of all, was “the anointed cherub who covers,” who was created beautiful and perfect in his ways. The cherub knew that he was beautiful, but pride entered his heart and the first sin in the whole history of eternity occurred.  Pride led to self-will (Is 14:13-14) and self-will led to rebellion. This great cherub became the adversary (Satan) of God, and apparently led other angels into rebellion. --- End of quote.  


Here are the Scriptures, beginning with Isaiah 14:
12. “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer! son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.


And the verses from Ezekiel 28:
‘Thus says the Lord God:
12. “You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,

Notice this verse: --- 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, --- Till iniquity was found in you.

--- So, the sins of pride and self-exaltation ‘developed’ within a creature that was created perfect, --- but with the ability to choose, so pride and self-exaltation led to rebellion against God.

(You will no doubt have some questions we can discuss.)


Placid