120 replies to this topic

[Dhulfikar]

Salaam Aleikum,

How can God (I mean Jesus who is Equal to Father) come to a creation form, when He is the opposite of creation?

Edited by Dhulfikar, 16 April 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[RayanJ]

Quote

How can God come to a creation form...

Not sure I understand the question?

[Dhulfikar]

RayanJ, on 16 April 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Not sure I understand the question?

God created creations and He is different than what is created. How can then Jesus (a God) come or take an creation form, where He is different than creation itself?

Edited by Dhulfikar, 16 April 2012 - 02:14 PM.

[placid]

Hi Dhulfikar,

This is what has caused lots of confusion.

If an angel came and spoke to you, where would you believe that the angel came from?
Would you not believe that the angel came from God?

The Scripture does not say that Jesus was God, --- or that He was a god, as though He was a second, or junior god.

We know that 'only God is God,' --- but we know that from the New Testament and the Quran, the Word (Logos) was with God from the beginning in heaven. The Word was the Manifestation of God whom God could send to the earth to represent Himself.

--- See where it mentions the Word in Surah 3:
45.Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

Notice that this angel Gabriel, (who came from God), said. "God gives you glad tidings of a 'Word' from Himself."
--- So God sent the Word to earth to create a 'Being' in Mary, without a human father.

So Mary asked the natural question, 'how could this happen?'?
47.She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

So Jesus, who was born to Mary, was a human being with no earthly father, because God said, "Be" and he was. (This is the creative power of God.)

When this is recorded in the Gospel of Luke ch 1, Gabriel said, "He shall be CALLED the Son of God.

--- God, through His Holy Spirit implanted the seed in Mary, and the virgin birth took place.
So Jesus had a human body, but was indwelt by the Word (Logos), which came from God.


This is recorded also in Surah 19, where the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary
19. He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

--- So, Jesus was a Sign for all mankind, revealing God's power, 3:49
--- And a Mercy, in that God was Merciful to mankind and sent a Savior/Messiah, to reveal God's plan of salvation for believers.

--- And He could be also CALLED the 'Son of God' --- because Who did He come from? --- was it not God?

[Son of Placid]

According to the NT we are all sons of God, or children of God for those of us who believe, but it's metaphoric. We know we're all mere men and not gods. It seems to be easier for Chrstians to understand this than others. The term son of god is tremendously over-rated.

Psalms is Psalms, songs. 82 is a song of Asaph. Asaph says "you are gods". The Hebrew word he used is Elohim which is a very broad term, in this case actually means mighty ones, aka judges.

For the shallow this may seem to be trickery, but for the wise it is a reason to study, in context,

[Philip]

Son of Placid, on 17 April 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

According to the NT we are all sons of God, or children of God for those of us who believe, but it's metaphoric. We know we're all mere men and not gods. It seems to be easier for Chrstians to understand this than others. The term son of god is tremendously over-rated.

Psalms is Psalms, songs. 82 is a song of Asaph. Asaph says "you are gods". The Hebrew word he used is Elohim which is a very broad term, in this case actually means mighty ones, aka judges.

For the shallow this may seem to be trickery, but for the wise it is a reason to study, in context,

is this metaphoric for Sayidna Issa as well ??

[Son of Placid]

Philip, on 18 April 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

is this metaphoric for Sayidna Issa as well ??

I guess it's however you decide to interpret it and how it fits your argument

[Jaysro]

Hi everyone I'm new here so if I make mistakes regarding the forum rules or something please be kind to tell me.

Son of placid, there are a lot of things which only christians seem to understand (original sin, trinity, all loving God and so on)... and that bothers me because logic and truth isn't subjective but an objective thing (or at least that's what it should be)

so the christians here are saying that jesus is the son of God, but what does that mean to be son of God? Jesus was God in the flesh right? So Jesus was only a bodily manifestation of God on earth? am I correct?

[Son of Placid]

Jaysro, on 23 April 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Hi everyone I'm new here so if I make mistakes regarding the forum rules or something please be kind to tell me.

Son of placid, there are a lot of things which only christians seem to understand (original sin, trinity, all loving God and so on)... and that bothers me because logic and truth isn't subjective but an objective thing (or at least that's what it should be)

so the christians here are saying that jesus is the son of God, but what does that mean to be son of God? Jesus was God in the flesh right? So Jesus was only a bodily manifestation of God on earth? am I correct?

Much of what Christians believe is taught in the same way Islam is taught...with the understanding that your leader has absolute truth. Truth is not subjective however logic is. Culture and doctrine can have a big impact on logic. Most of the threads here are what Muslims believe Christians believe and illogical is the way they all want to understand it. It's not what's written that's wrong, it's the way it's interpreted and I don't mean between languages, but opinions.

Regardless of the beliefs others consider wrong, God still blesses Christians for their faith. Wouldn't that defy all logic?

[Jaysro]

I don't know if I completely agree, but I do understand what you mean, I think it depends on the subject. I still think that logic is extremely important, if its absent then why believe... God should be able to attract muslims to christianity and logic is the only way to be honest. Or a paranormal experience where jesus comes and speaks to me or something.

I met a has been christian lady in the hospital yesterday and she has terminal cancer and is doing extremely bad to say the least, she is around 80 years old and has lost her faith in the church and in God a couple of years ago. She expected the loving God to do something for her like he promised in the bible, but he didn't so she doesn't believe in Him now. As a muslim I don't blame her, she has this view of how YHWH should be and He didn't deliver like the bible says "Ask and I shall deliver". So as a christian how would you explain that to her?

I've always had these basic but fundamental questions that I never understood: "For God so loveth the world", He sacrificed his only son for our sins. If he loves us so much that he even saved Hitler from his sins if he only believed in Jesus' death and resurrection... then why is there so much trouble in the world? this is a basic atheist question but if they ask muslims we'd say that life is a test... but what would you say?

[Son of Placid]

Jaysro, on 24 April 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

I don't know if I completely agree, but I do understand what you mean, I think it depends on the subject. I still think that logic is extremely important, if its absent then why believe... God should be able to attract muslims to christianity and logic is the only way to be honest. Or a paranormal experience where jesus comes and speaks to me or something.

I met a has been christian lady in the hospital yesterday and she has terminal cancer and is doing extremely bad to say the least, she is around 80 years old and has lost her faith in the church and in God a couple of years ago. She expected the loving God to do something for her like he promised in the bible, but he didn't so she doesn't believe in Him now. As a muslim I don't blame her, she has this view of how YHWH should be and He didn't deliver like the bible says "Ask and I shall deliver". So as a christian how would you explain that to her?

I've always had these basic but fundamental questions that I never understood: "For God so loveth the world", He sacrificed his only son for our sins. If he loves us so much that he even saved Hitler from his sins if he only believed in Jesus' death and resurrection... then why is there so much trouble in the world? this is a basic atheist question but if they ask muslims we'd say that life is a test... but what would you say?

Life is a test is too simple an answer. Christianity is a very broad span of beliefs.


God answers prayer in different ways. Yes, No, or wait a while. (so it seems) You may pray for something that is not within God's will all your life. You may never know why you didn't get it but God knows. Maybe you still haven't learned your lesson...Who knows, even as we ask we close our ears to a "no" answer and keep asking. God doesn't play our little games. The concept that a loving God means he follows us around fullfilling our every wish is not even logical.

I can elaborate later if you like. I'm knee deep in little league baseball and have to run.

[Jaysro]

But how can you say life is a test if God already came down from heaven and sacrificed himself for our sins? if god actually "so loveth the world" then WHY is he even testing us? In islam as you might know God doesn't love us all, in fact he hates a lot of people that's why it makes sense when there's a test to see who'm will gain god's love.

Yes, I think christianity is a broad set of beliefs too, but it seems that nothing really matters once a christian believes in the death and resurrection of God and then gets baptized to remove all sin and thus get a pass to heaven. Isn't this all? or does YHWH demand us to do some obligatory things like prayer, fasting, paying the poor due or even going on a pilgrimage like Allah in islam?  


Don't worry about the shortness of the answers, I just want your point of view on some things I didn't understand before, i'm very happy with any answer.

[Son of Placid]

There's a movement out there of big gaudy crosses worn with an assortment of chains, found mostly on those who do hip-hop etc.
Yeah, Jesus saves man! Wear a cross and you won't be left behind. Then they do whatever. Most of them have no idea who Jesus is.

According to Trinitarians there is a unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are in essence one God capable of being either/or without division, nor does one lessen the other. There's many explanations, none of which can I totally grasp, (nor properly explain), but I don't see it as shirk. Apparently neither does God.

[Jaysro]

Logically speaking I can understand that God has the power to become a trinity, the one God in 3 different forms Father, Son and Holy spirit. Its perfectly possible for our infinite creator. But the problem is that when you compare this logical idea with the attributes of Father, Son and Holy spirit in the Bible you can't seem to conclude anything but the opposite (that they're not merely different bodies but different persons all along). What is it that makes God one person in your view because christians believe in One God, but it turns out to be 3 persons so how does that stay one?

I understand when you say that we can't understand God, but I imagine it only counts when you ask deep questions like what it means that God is infinite or who created God etc... but the definition of a person or persons is not that hard is it?

One god three persons, That's something I also didn't understand about my christian friends here and they never gave me a straight answer (maybe because they didn't know a lot), but how would a knowledgable christian explain this?

[Saintly_Jinn23]

The Sufi scholar (and saint to many) Ibn Arabi was recorded as saying that the sin of Christians is not in making "Jesus Christ God" but in "making God Jesus Christ" if that makes any sense.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23, 02 May 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,
Welcome,

Quote from Post 7
Hi everyone I'm new here so if I make mistakes regarding the forum rules or something please be kind to tell me.
Son of placid, there are a lot of things which only christians seem to understand (original sin, trinity, all loving God and so on)... and that bothers me because logic and truth isn't subjective but an objective thing (or at least that's what it should be)
so the christians here are saying that jesus is the son of God, but what does that mean to be son of God? Jesus was God in the flesh right? So Jesus was only a bodily manifestation of God on earth? am I correct?

--- (While Son of Placid is busy with baseball) --- I would like to respond to your first questions:
“So the Christians here are saying that Jesus is the Son of God, but what does that mean to be son of God?”

Response: --- While some do say that Jesus was God, it leads to confusion because Jesus was human, and you are right in saying that “Jesus was a bodily Manifestation of God on earth.”

However, God has manifested Himself many times in the OT through various Personages, but in the New Covenant (Testament) God has manifested Himself through Jesus. --- A verse says, “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.”
--- You, of course, have read the verses in the Quran in Surahs 3 and 19 that say, Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary,”

--- So Jesus had no earthly Father and it says in Luke 1:  
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.
36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

--- This angel Gabriel, who appeared six months earlier to Mary’s cousin, Elizabeth, and now appears to Mary, is the same Gabriel that revealed God’s messages to Muhammad, --- so this is the strong link between the NT and the Quran.

--- In the verses I capitalized the words CALLED, because it said Jesus would be CALLED the Son of the Highest v 32, --- and would be CALLED the Son of God v 35.

This compares to Surah 19:
19. He said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

It is also written in Surah 3:
45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

So Jesus came by Special birth and was CALLED the Son of God. --- ‘God said “Be!” and He was,’ --- and it was not God Himself, but another Manifestation of Himself, the Holy Spirit, that impregnated Mary.

But notice in v 45 it says, “God gives glad tidings of a Word from Him.” --- This complicates it more because the Word with a capital W refers to “The Word (Logos)” that was with God in the beginning John 1:1.

John 1:14 says, “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”
The Word (Logos) --- another Manifestation of God, indwelt Jesus during His life, so Jesus had a human body, and Divine Spirit.

--- So you can see how it can be confusing.
It is proper to say that Jesus is the Son of God, because God brought the human Jesus into ‘Being’ through the Virgin Birth, --- but there is one more thing.
--- While God said, “This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased,” Jesus called God, ‘His heavenly Father,’ --- and a new Father-Son relationship was introduced, which becomes the new relationship for us all. --- When we believe in God and accept His plan of salvation through Jesus Christ, we are “adopted’ into the family of God, and we can be CALLED ‘children of God.’

And Jesus taught his disciples to pray, saying, “Our Father, who is in Heaven,” --- so we as believers address our prayers also to ‘Our Father in Heaven.’      
(Enough for now)


Placid

[Jaysro]

Thanks for the thorough explenation, since I might bother you with my many questions please don't feel obliged to write long posts since I know its time-consuming sometimes.

So in essence jesus is not god but a seperate personality created by God when God blew a part of His spirit into mary. But he would be CALLED the son of god because of the unique way he was created? You also said that you pray to the Father like Jesus pbuh taught you. So do you also pray to jesus or only through jesus like shia do through the imams? (intercession)


I won't ask too many questions now to give son of placid time before asking stupid questions

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

Thanks for your reply.

I realize that I write some lenghty posts but I also see that you understood it, and the relationship between God and Jesus is something that a lot of readers have not seemed to grasp.

Jesus taught that, as well as directing our prayers to God, our Heavenly Father, we are to pray in His name.

The understanding is that if we come to the Father with our praise and worship as well as our requests, and pray in Jesus' name we are identified as a 'child of God,' or part of 'the family of believers.'

Jesus said, "Whatever you ask the Father in My name, believing, you shall receive."

[soloman]

placid, on 03 May 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Jesus said, "Whatever you ask the Father in My name, believing, you shall receive."

Hi Placid

In Mathew 7:22-23

Jesus says: " Many will say to me on that day ,Lord ,Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out demons
and perform many miracles ?' Then I will tell them plainly, ' I never knew you, Away from me, you evil doers! "

Now, I would assume that anybody ,apart from the disciples , who asks/talks in Jesus name must be at risk of Jesus calling them
evil doers when he returns.

Don't you think?

Soloman

[Jaysro]

@placid
I have a good christian friend who explained some of these things so I have some background, but the way you explain is a bit different and more understandable at least I hope I understood

Praying through jesus is just like intercession then? You believe that Jesus is someone very unique and much loved by God who is sent so we might be lead to the pure truth about God... only through Jesus and his teachings we can get to God.

So to you Jesus is not God, he merely is the pure being created by the spirit of God and sent to act as a mediator between us and God?

Is that somewhat okay?

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

You ae right,

There are many who believe in God, but Jesus said there is a commitment to make in following Him.

The verse before the ones you quoted says that, in Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:


In the Quran when it mentions 'the People of the Scriptures' or 'the People of the Book,' it usually refers to the Jews who were disagreeing with Muhammad's teaching.

--- But notice this assessment of the Christians who were there, --- Surah 5:  
82. You will find the most vehement of mankind to those who believe, to be the Jews and the idolaters. And you will find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe, to be those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them there are men of sincerety, and because they are not arrogant.
83. When they listen to that which has been revealed unto the messenger, you see their eyes overflow with tears because of their recognition of the Truth. They say, "Our Lord, we believe,inscribe us as among the witnesses."

[placid]

Hi Jaysro,

Quote: I have a good christian friend who explained some of these things so I have some background, but the way you explain is a bit different and more understandable at least I hope I understood

Praying through jesus is just like intercession then? You believe that Jesus is someone very unique and much loved by God who is sent so we might be lead to the pure truth about God... only through Jesus and his teachings we can get to God.
So to you Jesus is not God, he merely is the pure being created by the spirit of God and sent to act as a mediator between us and God?
Is that somewhat okay?


Response --- Yes, that is right on. --- While many want to reject this, Jesus is the Savior/Messiah who came once for all mankind.

You can check this with your friend, but verses like this one say it very plainly, John 5:
24.“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

In the Quran Jesus is called the Messiah a number of times, and these verses, that Jesus spoke, agree with the above, Surah 3:
50. I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51.'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'

Yes, we pray to God in Jesus' name and this identifies us as believers in His teaching and sacrifice on our behalf.

Yes, Jesus is the mediator between God and man.

[Jaysro]

Thanks you've enlightened me! it makes sense...

So how would you define the people in the trinity? Am I right in saying:

-The father = God, He's alone and none is like him, he created the universe, the people and the law.
-The son = prophet and mediator created and sent by God (but he's not God)
-The holy spirit= is not god but another word or metafor for the presence of God inside peoples hearts through their understanding of the bible (its not a person its a manifestation of the cumulative understanding of what God wants from us, thus making us act righteously, be guided and in essence be inerrant )

Is my definition okay?

[anwark]

Jaysro, on 05 May 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Thanks you've enlightened me! it makes sense...

So how would you define the people in the trinity? Am I right in saying:

-The father = God, He's alone and none is like him, he created the universe, the people and the law.
-The son = prophet and mediator created and sent by God (but he's not God)
-The holy spirit= is not god but another word or metafor for the presence of God inside peoples hearts through their understanding of the bible (its not a person its a manifestation of the cumulative understanding of what God wants from us, thus making us act righteously, be guided and in essence be inerrant )

Is my definition okay?

the god doesn't have son and there is no The holy spirit as well.  THE GOD IS ALONE

[anwark]

Dhulfikar, on 16 April 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Salaam Aleikum,

How can God (I mean Jesus who is Equal to Father) come to a creation form, when He is the opposite of creation?

THE CREATOR CANT BE A CREATION  for example thomas alva edison created the  light bulb but he cant be a  light bulb