93 replies to this topic

[soloman]

Hi Placid

placid, on 21 May 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

I have read here on Shiachat that in the Quran the words bracketed were not in the original. Sometimes it is just a word or two added to make it easy to understand.
In this verse Pickthal brackets (the like of whom), --- but the others have various wording for the same description.
--- So, (the like of whom) was not in the original Arabic,
So, you see that bracketing is used in the Quran as well with the same meaning, that the words in brackets were not in the original.
So I will get back on track later, but is studying Scripture, we have to know the 'particulars' of it.

Not to stray to much from the topic at hand , but as you indicated we have to know the 'particulars' of the scripture.

Sure, the Quran translators are just as guilty as the Christian translators for adding possible meanings of words in brackets.

This is misleading and a gross violation of these Noble Revelations.

What can say , Allah The Most High  revealed in the Quran that it is an Arabic Quran and if Allah The Most High had revealed
it in any other language then discrepancies would arise.

The verses you quoted from the Quran is a good example to prove that ,what Allah The Most High has warned us against .

There are many more examples of gross misquoting and words added, to give meaning  in the Quran, than what you quoted.

One such example is in Surat al-Baqarah 2 : 2 "This is the Book,....."
This is how 95% of translators have translated this verse

The Arabic is, " th`aalikal-kitaabu laa rayba feeh......."

But in Arabic "th`aalika" does not mean 'This' it means 'That'

The verse should read " That is the Book,......."

Now if you read the verse in context with its proper translation you get a different meaning.

There was somebody here on Shia - Chat who came up with a different understanding of the verse using its proper
translation, and because it did not sit well with members here - they Banned him. (Sunni/Shia dialogue)

In conclusion I agree that there exist translations that add words to explain its meaning but personally I have to reject these acts.

Soloman

[placid]

Hi,

I don't mind the way the text is written, and that we have different wording in translations to explain the same word.

--- For instance, there are three words in the Greek that are all translated as 'love' in English.
They are Aros (romantic, erotic love), Philos (brotherly love) from which comes the name of the city of Philadelphia, 'the City of Brotherly Love.' --- and Agape (God's Love)
--- All of this is explained in a study Bible or in footnotes, so we can understand a little better.
But most individual words don't change the message much. --- At any rate I can accept your disapproval.


Howeever, I want to get back on trach, so, in order to understand how Jesus was a Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, --- we have to know who Melchizedek was, so that Jesus could be like Him.

So who do you say he was? --- Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life.
--- Who do you say he is?

The trinitarians say that he was the 'Preincarnate Christ.'

[soloman]

Hi Placid

placid, on 23 May 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

So who do you say he was? --- Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life.
--- Who do you say he is?

Melchizedek - King of Righteousness - King of Peace

He is certainly an important personality, especially where Jesus is concerned.

From the little that is mentioned in Genesis and Psalm 110 we become overwelemed with this Great servant of God.

It is revealed in Genesis that he Blessed Abraham, and it is an indication for us to know His greatness and subsequently
the greatness of Jesus .

We don't know where he came from descent, tribe etc.....

We do know that he had the office of High Priest ,hence Abraham payed him a tenth etc...

We also know that Jesus was a High Priest in the line of The King of Righteousness.

There is a Christian Father by the name of Paul who used the nomination of Jesus as High Priest in the line of Melchizedek
as a means to change Gods Law .

Paul could not understand why God had to send Jesus ,a High Priest of such a catogary when the Levitical priests were already there.
Heb - 7:11

After much brainstorming Paul came up with the idea that this might be the changing of the guard. He assumes that the
nomination of Jesus as High Priest renders the levitical priests redundant.
Heb - 7:12 ,18

So Paul started to preach to the Gentiles and some Jews ,that there need to be a New Law as there is a New High Priest.

At the helm of this New Law is none other than Paul himself - deciding what stays in and what goes out.

Not only did Paul find himself  the author of the New Law he also rubbed it off an unsuspecting Gentile people - with great success.

Christian scholars beleive Jesus is the Messiah and King promised from Davids line.

But ,the only personality that Jesus is refered to be in line with, is that of Melchizedek - Psalm110

Because the jews misunderstood many of the scripture ,they also misunderstood many verses concerning The King to come
and the Messiah .They attributed all the verses to one personality.

There are verses revealed in support of the Messiah and in support of The King to come  in the scripture but because  the Jews
thought this to be one personality they got lost when the Messiah came. A few did however recognise the Messiah.

The Jews could not accept Jesus the Messiah because he did not fullfill the conditions of the King to come.

But those Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah eventually became Christians still have the misunderstanding

that the Messiah and the King is one .

Because of the misunderstanding you now have:

- The Jews rejected Jesus the Messiah because he did not fullfill the conditons of the King.

- The Christians accept Jesus the Messiah but cannot prove he fullfilled the conditions of the King nor can they prove
   with certainty he is a descendant of David.

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Quote from Post 78:
Melchizedek - King of Righteousness - King of Peace
He is certainly an important personality, especially where Jesus  is concerned.
From the little that is mentioned in Genesis and Psalm 110 we become overwelemed with this Great servant of God.
It is revealed in Genesis that he Blessed Abraham, and it is an indication for us to know His greatness and subsequently the greatness of Jesus  .
We don't know where he came from descent, tribe etc.....
We do know that he had the office of High Priest, hence Abraham payed him a tenth etc...
We also know that Jesus  was a High Priest in the line of The King of Righteousness.


Response: --- We have this much information.
Gen 14:18. Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.
Hebrews 7:1. For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

1 He was the King of Salem
2 Priest of the Most High God. --- (This is the first mention of a Priest in the Bible. So over 400 years before Aaron became a High Priest from the tribe of Levi, Melchizedek, who was God’s Representative (or Manifestation) on earth, --- established worship of God and tithing of the people.)  
3 He was also the king of ’righteousness’ as well as King of Salem, which means King of Peace, --- (and Salem, with different spelling of the name, is considered to be Jerusalem, which is called the “City of Peace.” --- A cross reference is Psalm 76:2.)
4 Without father or mother, without genealogy. --- But, Eternal from God.
5 But made like the Son of God --- (This is where he could be considered to be the Pre-incarnate Christ, --- but He was a separate Person from Jesus, was He not?

The term Son of God was used different times in Special Appearances, --- In Daniel, when the three men were cast into the firey furnace, because they wouldn’t bow down to the image of Nebuchadnezzar, it says this in Daniel 3:
24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?”
They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.”
25 “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

6. --- And he remains a Priest forever. --- so Jesus, who was CALLED the Son of God, --- the Christ, the Messiah, is identified with Melchizedek,  as King of Righteousness and King of Peace, and is a High Priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.

A very impressive Personality
If He was King and High Priest, --- then Jesus will be like Melchizedek, as King and High Priest, --- as prophesied.

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem, the city of David, and registered as a descendant of David, it says in Matthew 2:
1. Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem,
2. saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”

--- So, what was their relationship?


Placid

[soloman]

Hi Placid

With out much fuss, we can agree then, that Melchizedek was a very impressive personality.

-Your quote:

If He was King and High Priest, --- then Jesus will be like Melchizedek, as King and High Priest, --- as prophesied.


-My response

If I'm correct in assuming that you suggest that because Melchizedek was King and High Priest and Jesus is like Melchizedek ,
as prophesied, that makes Jesus king because his like Melchizedek and High Priest because His like Melchizedek.

I can accept this similarity between Jesus and Melchizedek .

But in accepting this similarity it only strengthens my view that Jesus is not the promised King in the line of David.

Because  Jesus is already King 'like Melchizedek' he has no need to be king in the line of David.

Suppose David was not even born , then Jesus would still have been King because He was like Melchizedek - a King and High Priest.

So you find Jesus do not need to be in Davids line to be King - He is by divine right a Kingly Priest way before Davids birth - like Melchizedek.

Having established that Jesus is already a Priestly king , We must now ask the all important question ---

WHO IS THE KING PROMISED TO KING DAVID IN THE OLD TESTAMENT TO COME AT THE END OF TIME.

Surely it cannot be Jesus , because we already know that, He is a Priestly King in the line of Melchizedek.

And Jesus ,according to your rational is a descendant of David, cannot be a King before is ancestor King David.

-Your quote
Hebrews 7:1. For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

-My Response
I can agree with most of the  assessment of Hebrews concerning Melchizedek.

The part ",but made like the Son of God ,remains a priest continually " is nothing more than a biased opinion upon an untruthful belief.

Most of the above Heb, 7:1 - 3 is accurately copied from the old testament by the author ,but  the section in question is misleading,

Can you refer me to the section in the OT where one can verify the passage in question ?.

Did you know that Hebrews don't name its author ?

Did you know that only in the 4th century AD  Paul was credited with writing Hebrews ?

Did you know many Christian scholars now believe that Timothy, Paul's pupil wrote Hebrews ?

Did you know that Christian scholars believe that this document was written to prevent Apostasy ?

In this case Apostasy may be regarded to Jewish - Christians leaving the Christian assembly to return to the synagogue.

With all these uncertainties of authorship etc... How can Christian hold that this is the Word of God ?

Soloman

[placid]

Hi,

The fact that Paul started his letters to the Churches by introducimg himself, which is not the case in this Letter to the Hebrews, which gives evidence that he did not write it.

Some have agreed that the style of most of the Book is not that of Paul, except in the last chapters where it sounds more like Paul's writing, and the conclusion where it says "Pray for us --- that I may be restored to you the sooner."

As it is written to the Jews, to relate the Gospel and New Covenant to the Old Covenant, and to explain the comparison of earthly priests with the Heavanly Priest, --- is evidence that it was written either by a well educated Jew, who was converted and could write this to his own people.

--- Or, it was 'dictated' by the Holy Spirit with heavenly mysteries and wisdom beyond men's wisdom.--- For instance giving the description of Melchizedek: without father, without mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days, or end of life.
--- Is that not beyond man's wisdom to have known such things, unless it was given him from the Holy Spirit of God?

The Book of Hebrews circulated by itself early on, because it had no named author, but was accepted as authentic, and was included in the Canon of Scripture, and obviously placed at the end of Paul's short letters, and some Bibles call it, "The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews."

It could also have been written by a Jew like Nicodemus, the Pharisee 'who came to Jesus by night' in John 3, --- and helped another Pharisee, Joseph of Arimathea, to bury the body of Jesus in the tomb..

However, Hebrews is a Book of Wisdom that reveals many truths from Prophecy.

Since it seems that you might only believe what you want to believe, --- you can do that.

However, there is more about Jesus that we may, or may not, get to.

[LoveforTruth]

Ali Bin Abu Talib said:

‘Had you set up a platform for me then I would have sat on it and

would have judged between the people of the Torah by the Torah until they would

have followed their Lord, and had you set up a platform for me then I would

have sat on it and would have judged between the people of the Evangel by the

Evangel until they would have followed their Lord, and had you set up a platform

for me then I would have sat on it and would have judged between the people

of the Psalms by the Psalms until they would have followed their Lord, and had

you set up a platform for me then I would have sat on it and would have judged

between the people of the Quran by the Quran until they would have followed their

Lord’.

Edited by LoveforTruth, 29 May 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[soloman]

Hi Placid

-Your quote

Since it seems that you might only believe what you want to believe, --- you can do that.

-My response

I beleive the words according to Jesus and not according to your self appointed 13th apostle .

I don't base my belieifs on conjecture and delude myself that it's Gods words.

All those who think they are following Jesus , I'll leave them with this from Jesus,

Mark 4:12

",they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding, otherwise they might turn and be forgiven"

Let all those who speak in Jesus name become cognizant of this verse and realise how little  they actually know.

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

I have to smile a little at your selection of verses, taken out of context, to prove a point
I was going to use this Parable of Jesus, on the topic of the Canaanite Woman, to show how Jesus taught the disciples, --- but I will use it here instead.

Quote: Mark 4:12. "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding, otherwise they might turn and be forgiven"
Let all those who speak in Jesus name become cognizant of this verse and realise how little they actually know.


Response: --- The verse you used was from a reference in Isaiah 6, when God called Isaiah to go, as a Prophet of God, to speak to the Jews about their rejection of Him, --- And God gave this instruction in Isaiah 6:

9. And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.”

Now the Parable in Mark 4 is one of the greatest teaching examples:
1 And again He began to teach by the sea. And a great multitude was gathered to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole multitude was on the land facing the sea.
2 Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching:
3 “Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow.
4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air[a] came and devoured it.
5 Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth.
6 But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away.
7 And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.
8 But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”
9 And He said to them,[b] “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

--- The Purpose of Parables

10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable.
11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,
12 so that --- (This is your verse that was given to the Jews in the OT)
‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’

--- The Parable of the Sower Explained

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
14 The sower sows the word.
15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.
18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word,
19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

This is so well explained, nothing needs to be added except that, “But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable.

So as a result of explaining it to them, --- the next day, there were twelve teachers that could explain it to the people, --- plus ‘those around Him’ who could take it home and explain it to their families, as well as to whoever they met.

This was Jesus’ method of teaching.  


Placid

[placid]

Hi there LoveforTruth,

Quote from Post 82:
Ali Bin Abu Talib  said:

‘Had you set up a platform for me then I would have sat on it and
would have judged between the people of the Torah by the Torah until they would
have followed their Lord, and had you set up a platform for me then I would
have sat on it and would have judged between the people of the Evangel by the
Evangel until they would have followed their Lord, and had you set up a platform
for me then I would have sat on it and would have judged between the people
of the Psalms by the Psalms until they would have followed their Lord, and had
you set up a platform for me then I would have sat on it and would have judged
between the people of the Quran by the Quran until they would have followed their Lord’.


Response: --- I have a quote that is similar:

(Quote from Shiachat):
Ali said:
Verily, I will instruct the follower of the Torah, according to the Torah. I will instruct the followers of the Gospels according to the Gospels, until both the Torah and the Gospels are made to speak and bear witness to the following: Ali has spoken the truth and the verdict that he has given is according to what has been revealed in us. (End of quote).


Ali also uses the first verses from Matthew 6 to teach his son about giving:

(Quote from Shiachat):
Matt.6
[1] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
[2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
[4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Imam Ali explain this issue to his son Hassan :
Remember my son, that before you is a long and arduous journey (life). The journey is not only very long, exhausting and onerous but the route is mostly through dismal, dreary and deserted regions where you will be sadly in need of refreshing, renovating and enlivening aids and helps and you cannot dispense with such provisions as to keep you going and to maintain you till the end of the journey - the Day of Judgement.
But remember not to overload yourself (do not entrust yourself with so many obligations and duties that you cannot honourably fulfil them, or with such luxurious life as to be wicked and vicious).
(Distribute your wealth amongst the poor, destitute and the needy, help others to the best of your ability and be kind and sympathetic to human beings). Thus relieve yourself from the heavy responsibility and liability of submitting an account on the Day of Judgement of how you have made use of His Bounties (of health, wealth, power and position).
The only way out of it (life) is either in Paradise or in Hell. Therefore, it is wise to send your things there beforehand so that they (good deeds) which reach there before you, prearrange for the place of your stay before you reach there because after death there is no repentance and no possibility of coming back to this world to undo the wrong done by you. (End of quote).

--- This would indicate that the Scriptures were there in Arabic for Ali, --- both to know them --- and to teach from them, would it not?


Placid

[soloman]

Hi Placid

- Your quote:
I have to smile a little at your selection of verses, taken out of context, to prove a point

-My response:
At-least you can smile ,although it is to show objection.


-Your quote:
The verse you used was from a reference in Isaiah 6, when God called Isaiah to go, as a Prophet of God, to speak to the Jews about their rejection of Him, --- And God gave this instruction in Isaiah 6

-My response:
If it is as you say a reference in Isaiah 6 then we must also consider the rest of the verses in Isaiah 6 .

You'll find that the first part of the verses in Isaiah 6 : 9 - 10 God uses Isaiah to let these people know their fate with regards to
disobeying the Scripture.


In the second part ,Isaiah (6 : 11-13) wants to know the duration of this revelation

Isaiah 6:11-13

11) Then I said ,"For how long , O Lord?" And He answered
" Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left and deserted and the fields ruined and ravaged,

12) until the Lord has sent everyone far away and the land is utterly forsaken.

13) And though a tenth remains in the land ,it will again be laid waste.
  But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land."

Now remember you said that Jesus quoted from Isaiah - which means whatever God told Isaiah about the duration of this
revelation had not yet happened  - as Jesus also quotes this revelation to explain to the apostles  that these people must
not understand God's Word ,otherwise they will believe and then forgiven.

You'll find  many references where Jesus sends out His apostles (2 by 2)to only go to the lost sheep of Israel -
- in all cities and towns.

Their are other references also ,telling them not to go to the gentiles or to all Israel  for that matter.

So you find that the apostles understood the message behind the parables ,after Jesus explained it to them.

It was this message behind the parables that the apostles had to convey to 'the lost sheep' of Israel.


-Your quote:
So as a result of explaining it to them, --- the next day, there were twelve teachers that could explain it to the people, --- plus ‘those around Him’ who could take it home and explain it to their families, as well as to whoever they met.

-My response:
Yes, they had to convey the message ,but only to the 'lost sheep of Israel' and not to everyone else out there, everyone else must remain as
quoted in Isaiah 6:9-10.

The second part of Isaiah 6:11-13 never happened during the life of Jesus nor during the life of the apostles .
Only until when that happened would the understanding become manifest.

Now you find Christian scholars try to rationalize that because it was the Jews that were being refered to in Isaiah 6 that it must be then
that God wants to now make them -Christians ,the inheritors of righteousness.

So Paul and co comes on the scene and distorts everything Jesus taught.

What is your view of Paul?

Soloman

[placid]

Hi Soloman,

Isaiah had been a Prophet for some time during the 52 year reign of Uzziah, the King of Judah.
--- Isaiah 6 says, “In the year that King Uzziah died” --- which was  739 BC.

As I said, “--- The verse you used was from a reference in Isaiah 6, when God called Isaiah to go, as a Prophet of God, to speak to the Jews about their rejection of Him.”


Isaiah was to preach repentance to the people of Israel, because destruction was coming.

So Isaiah lived to see the fulfillment of the destruction of the northern kingdom because it was taken into captivity by the Assyrians in 722 BC, --- and the land was left desolate or to others.
--- (That was 17 years after Isaiah was called to prophecy to them.)

Isaiah died in 681 BC, so he had many more years to preach and prophesy, --- but in 600-586 BC, the southern Kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity by Babylon for 70 years.

--- So the prophecy of Isaiah 6, in 739 BC was fulfilled in the captivity of the northern Kingdom of Israel in 722 BC by Assyria.
--- And the captivity of the southern Kingdom of Judah in 600-586 BC by Babylon.

I will answer your question about Paul later.  

[Gepetto_Zapata]

I didn't really want to create a new topic for my question, as I am sure it has been discussed many times in the past... I don't mean to derail this thread as well, but here goes...

If God had a son, literally, how come no other Prophet s. before Jesus, prayed to "Jesus"? And never even hinted that the Lord could ever beget... Yet it was always the opposite... "God is one, God is one, God is one...", I'd like to hear the Christian views of this? That if they see the earlier prophets s. and men of God to have foretell the birth of the Son of God in a way or the other, or if they ever prayed to "Jesus" and asked him for forgiveness... What verses in the Bible hint at prophets s. meaning Jesus?

[placid]

Hi Happy,

Quote from Post 88:
If God had a son, literally, how come no other Prophet s. before Jesus, prayed to "Jesus"? And never even hinted that the Lord could ever beget... Yet it was always the opposite... "God is one, God is one, God is one...", I'd like to hear the Christian views of this? That if they see the earlier prophets s. and men of God to have foretell the birth of the Son of God in a way or the other, or if they ever prayed to "Jesus" and asked him for forgiveness... What verses in the Bible hint at prophets s. meaning Jesus?


Response: --- Yes, this has been asked often in different ways.
Almighty God is above all things and we are told He has no image or likeness in heaven or on earth, --- so He could not literally have a Son. --- But as it says concerning Jesus in the Quran, Surah 19:
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

So, since God can create what He wills to create, he could have a special Child born of a virgin as it says in the Gospel of Luke,  --- chapter 1:
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest;
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

--- It says in 31, ---“They shall CALL His name Jesus,” which means Savior.
--- in verse 32, --- “He will be CALLED the Son of the Highest.”
--- In verse 35, --- “He will be CALLED the Son of God.”

The Sign of the birth of Jesus was given in Isaiah in Chapter 7:
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a Sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

In the alternative chapter of the birth of Jesus, --- it says in Matthew 1:
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

--- The term “God with us” indicates that Jesus came from God. --- He had no earthly father, --- so in that sense, He was the Son of God. --- He was born into the family of Joseph and Mary, so Joseph was His foster father.
It says again in Luke 2:
21 And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.


It is really a wrong concept that anyone should pray TO Jesus.
--- We are instructed ‘to pray to God, in Jesus’ name’

There is nowhere in Scripture that says, ‘Jesus is God,’ --- nor did Jesus ever say, He was God. --- But He was, and is, CALLED the Son of God, --- even as He called God His Heavenly Father.


Placid

[Gepetto_Zapata]

The major prophets s., Noah, Abaham, Moses, Jacob, Ishmael, Isaac... etc... did they ever pray to God in Jesus name?

Can we all call ourselves children of God, or God as our heavenly-father due to him being the source of our creation? Or is that title only preserved for Jesus s.? He was born a Virgin birth, Adam s. was born out of nothing, his "birth"/creation was a bit more complicated than that of Jesus s. (To us mere humans I mean), so why isn't he called the Son of God by anyone? Or is it because there was a woman involved (Mary s.), a virgin who got impregnated, so there was an "urge" to find a father so stuck it unto God?

The name Immanuel, do you take that as in it literally mean as God reincarnate with us? Or God through him for us? The latter is the most probable as there were many apparent Immanuels throughout history with the same purpose at hand to fulfill...

Regards...

[placid]

Hi Happy,

Thank you for the questions,

I have to be away for a few days so will answer when I get back.


Regards to you too.

[Gepetto_Zapata]

Sure, no problem, thanks...

Till later then... Take care...

[placid]

Hi Happy,

Quote from Post 90:
The major prophets s., Noah, Abaham, Moses, Jacob, Ishmael, Isaac... etc... did they ever pray to God in Jesus name?

Response: --- The dating of our present calendar if from when Jesus was born, --- so the name of Jesus, in the New Testament, was not known before then.


Quote: Can we all call ourselves children of God, or God as our heavenly-father due to him being the source of our creation? Or is that title only preserved for Jesus s.?

Response: --- In a general term we could say we are all ‘children of God’ in the sense that He was our creator.  But Spiritually, only those who believe in God and follow Jesus are considered as part of the ‘family of God.’

--- It began this way. --- When Mary was chosen to be the mother of Jesus, the angel Gabriel said in Luke 1:
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

Notice these verses:
31. ‘bring forth a Son, and shall CALL His name Jesus.
32. ‘He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;
35. ‘that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

--- So, He was CALLED Jesus, --- was CALLED the Son of the Highest, and was CALLED the Son of God, --- but He was born through natural childbirth into a human body. --- This is why Jesus was CALLED the ‘Only Begotten,’ or ‘Unique’ Son of God. --- He had a human body, but a Divine Spirit because He was conceived by the Spirit of God, and indwelt by The Word (Logos) of God.

It says this In Surah 19:
34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
--- So, when God determines to do something, ‘He says to it, “Be!” – and it is.’


Quote: He was born a Virgin birth, Adam s. was born out of nothing, his "birth"/creation was a bit more complicated than that of Jesus s. (To us mere humans I mean), so why isn't he called the Son of God by anyone? Or is it because there was a woman involved (Mary s.), a virgin who got impregnated, so there was an "urge" to find a father so stuck it unto God?

Response: --- Adam was created of dust, Genesis 2:7 --- Adam was created perfect, and it gives this verse about the likeness of Adam and Jesus, Surah 3:
59. The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

In the Genealogy in Luke 3: 38, Adam is called ‘the son of God.’
--- Joseph was the foster father of Jesus, --- read Matthew 1:18-25.


Quote: The name Immanuel, do you take that as in it literally mean as God reincarnate with us? Or God through him for us? The latter is the most probable as there were many apparent Immanuels throughout history with the same purpose at hand to fulfill...

Response: --- The term, ‘God with us, can refer to The Word (Logos) that came from God to indwell Jesus. --- So God, in the Person of The Word (Logos) indwelt Jesus from His birth till His death.


Placid

[Gepetto_Zapata]

Thank you for your response Placid...