11 replies to this topic

[Aryan Warrior]

So I have been looking up the whole thing around contracts with these relevant verses in mind:

"O you who acknowledge, honor your contracts. Made lawful for you are all the animals of the livestock, except what is being recited to you, and what you are not allowed to hunt of the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases."

"And do not come near the orphan's money, except for that which is best, until he reaches his independence. And fulfill your oath, for the oath brings responsibility." (17:34)

So with these in mind, it seems to me that its stating that we must honour all our contracts unless i'm reading it wrong and thus would appreciate someone clearing it up.

Now what i've been thinking about is how some website and such make you have to agree to some agreement they have for certain things. For example on Facebook, when you sign up by pressing "sign up" you have agreed to the Terma of Service which states that you cam't upload any pictures which you do not have the rights to. Everyone always presses sign up and still uploads with Facebook doing nothing about it. I always uploaded pictures too of maybe some movie I am planning to see or these clothes that I want to buy.

. Now what I wonder is that if the rules of contracts as listed in 5:1 and17:34 applies to these terms of service. When I think contract I always imagine two people in front of each other and thus have greeted before talking about it and this is more like a robot that is programmed to show everyone these so called "terms of service" thingy without the original writer of it ever knowing or meeting the person.

Thus I wanna know that if I were to accept it and still upload such things on Facebook would I be sinning?

Thanks, this has been really bugging me tonight.

[Shia_Debater]

A question I asked Imam Ali Foundation a while back

Quote

Imam Ali Foundation eanswers@najaf.org   

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

It is not allowed to act against the law

Wassalamu Alaykum

-----Original Message-----
From: Shia_Debater
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 7:31 PM
To: eanswers@najaf.org
Subject:

Is it haram to go against the terms and conditions of a website after
agreeing to them?

Now I don't know whether going against the terms and conditions of a website will be going against the law or not.

[Aryan Warrior]

Shia_Debater, on 11 April 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

A question I asked Imam Ali Foundation a while back



Now I don't know whether going against the terms and conditions of a website will be going against the law or not.

Well I don't think it is going against the law considering the only thing that would cripple such a thing I believe was SOPA. Making money off such a thing I know is illegal though.

But yeah can I get more opinions?

[ThE-Samz]

i had a similar issue with watching movies online or downloading them when the movie doesnt allow it.

[Aryan Warrior]

I have been thinking for a bit and that "terms of service" are completely injustifiable. They have some of the most ridiculous requirements and the only way to explore that part of the internet is to accept it even though its logically not possible to follow it. God has said that this religion isn't here to burden us thus why I am so skeptical of if terms of service fits in with contract?

They can write anything they want in the "terms of service" and if one is to really follow it, it would not be possible to really see that part of the internet. For example if they can write anything then one can even write "You must smoke a joint and you must accept this if you want to see this part of the internet" Most would just accept but never do or follow what it asks and thus would have the freedom to explore that part of the internet, yet i we wouldn't normally smoke a joint and thus if we followed that we would be unable to explore that part of the internet just cause of such unjustifiable writing we would be unable to enjoy the good stuff that Allah has granted us.

The prevention of letting people enjoy such things reminds me of that verse about people preventing others from enjoying the things God has given us.

Hmm... still quite confused and saddened. If one can provide some more opinions that is quite appreciated.

[Aryan Warrior]

Anymore conments?

I've been thinking more about this. I was looking up the definition for terms of service and fo und it means a set of rules one must agree on. This seems to differ from a contract as a contract seems to indicate a something both sides gain from each other like trade or marriage where the contract for marriage for both sides agreeing on a union and the terms of service are wwhat God has laid out are our rules.

Thus stuff like Facebook, we have only a terms of service and no contract.

Am I correct?

[Aryan Warrior]

Is there really no more comments?

[Gypsy]

What would happen if you upload things not owned by you? Does it get removed? Do people care if you don't have the rights to the picture?

Generally, when people put pictures online, they don't really specify how it should be use. For eg pictures of cats with captions. If someone doesn't really copyright these pictures and doesn't really forbide you from using, then there isn't any contract here that needs to be respected.

The facebook warning seems very generic. They can't really say you cannot upload pictures that is not owned by you. What about those pictures that are already in public domain.What about pictures of politicans.

The only exception I can see in this dilema is playing with other people personal photos of themselves. As a courtesy we don't really play around with other people photos.

[Aryan Warrior]

Gypsy, on 13 April 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

What would happen if you upload things not owned by you? Does it get removed? Do people care if you don't have the rights to the picture?

Generally, when people put pictures online, they don't really specify how it should be use. For eg pictures of cats with captions. If someone doesn't really copyright these pictures and doesn't really forbide you from using, then there isn't any contract here that needs to be respected.

The facebook warning seems very generic. They can't really say you cannot upload pictures that is not owned by you. What about those pictures that are already in public domain.What about pictures of politicans.

The only exception I can see in this dilema is playing with other people personal photos of themselves. As a courtesy we don't really play around with other people photos.

Well true, but the problem is that copyright has become such a massive and layered thing that is really hard to know what is copyrighted or not. Pictures get passed around really fast and we don't know its sources and such  and therefore breaking the "terms of service" becomes quite easy. Thus we are inevidably gonna break terms of service agreements as they are so massive and impossible to read and much of what I said above as well.

Thus i've come to learn "terms of service" probably doesn't refer to a contract. I was speaking to people the other day and they mentioned that a contract involves two people signing a deal to protect each other, while a terms of service are simply rules that you must agree on.

Course I am still quite scared of this as all as what if i'm wrong in regards to "terms of service" vs "contract"? what is 5:1 and 17:34 do include "Terms of service" as a contract?

The only types of contracts i've seen mentioned in the Quran are treaties, trade/work contracts,  and marriage contracts. All of these involve two opposing bodies agreeing to enter something together. The terms of service on the other hand which are the rules seem to laid out by God, which if we break those ones we clearly are sinning. What we have here are man-made "terms of service" which have a bunch of draconian rules not mentioned by God and hasn't forbid us on breaking rules with humans.

What is your opinions on what I just said?

Edited by Aryan Warrior, 13 April 2012 - 08:28 PM.

[Gypsy]

Terms of service is a very generic document. It is written with no particular person in mind. It is purposely vague. It's basically written to protect not the user but the organization (Facebook) that is providing the service from getting sue. It's basically saying that if you do something wrong and get sued, then we are not responsible for it. If we find something that we don't like we can delete it. If we don't like you then we can get rid of your account.

Terms of service is not a contract. It doesn't exist outside of the environment/Facebook. Generally, terms of service do not carry that much legal power. Legally, a lot of time, the court doesn't hold an individual responsible for breaking the terms of service, especially if those terms are unfair.

So, you will have to decide for yourself if the terms of service are reasonable for you to follow. If these terms are unfair, then I don't follow them. My reasoning is simple. The term of service is never written to protect the end user but the organization. So, they are already unfair to begin with.If the written terms do not go against my religion or my conviction, then I obey them.


- Not a legal opinion

Edited by Gypsy, 14 April 2012 - 05:50 AM.

[:Sami]

The contractual law verses  in the :Quran. refer to living sovereign beings, not between corporate entities.
All this is irrelevant to the example you have stated .

[Aryan Warrior]

Gypsy: Thank you, you made my morning. I think I can finally leave this behind me now. Honestly the best explanation I think that I can get. May God bless you I can finally head to my event with a clear head today

Sami: Even more confirmation Thank you as well