33 replies to this topic

[LoveforTruth]

It is reported that Abu ‘Abd-Allah narrated from his fathers, in order, until the Commander of the Faithful peace be upon all of them, that one day the people of five religions, the Jews, the Christians, the Naturalists (dahriyah), the Dualists and the ‘Arab Idolaters gathered before the Apostle of Allah.

The Jews said, “We say, ‘Ezra is the son of Allah.’ O Muhammad! We came to you to see what you say. If you follow us, we were right prior to you and better than you, and if you oppose us, we will argue with you.”

The Christians said, “We say, ‘Verily Jesus is the son of Allah who united with Him.’ We came to you to see what you say. If you follow us, we were right prior to you and better than you, and if you oppose us we will argue with you.”

The Naturalists said, “We say, ‘There is no begining of things and they are everlasting.’ We came to you to see what you say. If you follow us, we were right prior to you and better than you, and if you oppose us we will argue with you.”

The Dualists said, “We say, ‘Verily the light and the darkness are the administrators.’ We came to you to see what you say. If you follow us, we were right prior to you and better than you, and if you oppose us we will argue with you.”

The ‘Arab Idolaters said, “We say, ‘Verily our idols are gods.’ We came to you to see what you say. If you follow us, we were right prior to you and better than you, and if you oppose us we will argue with you.”

The Apostle of Allah (‘s) said, “I believe in God alone. There is no partner for Him, and I deny every god but Him.” Then he said to them, “Verily Allah the Exalted raised me for all of the people as a bearer of good news, a warner and as an authority for the inhabitants of the world, and Allah will turn the deceptions of those who deceive in His religion back on them.”…

Then he faced the Christians and said to them, “You said that the Eternal is united with Christ, His son. What do you mean by this saying? Do you want to say that the Eternal became non-eternal by this creature who is Jesus, or that the non-eternal, who is Jesus, became eternal by the Eternal who is Allah, or your saying, ‘He united with him’ means that ‘He distinguished him by nobility while He did not ennoble anyone but him.’ If you mean that the Eternal, the Exalted, became non-eternal, you are wrong. For it is impossible for the eternal to change and become non-eternal, and if you mean that the non-eternal became eternal you are wrong for it is impossible too for the non-eternal to change to the eternal, and if you mean that He united with him whereby He distinguished him and chose him among His other servants, you confess to the originality of Jesus and everything that is united with him for his own sake. Because if Jesus is non-created and Allah is united with him and changed him to the best creature before Him, Jesus and Him would have been non-eternal, and this is opposite to what you said in the begining.”

The Christians said, “O Muhammad! Allah the Exalted manifested some strange things by the hand of Jesus, so He took him as His son for the sake of nobility.”

The Apostle of Allah said, “You heared what I said to the Jews about what you said.” Then he repeated all of that.

They said nothing except one of them who said, “O Muhammad! Do not you say, ‘Abraham is khalíl Allah (the friend of Allah)?’ So when you say this why do you reject our saying, ‘Jesus is the son of Allah.’”

The Apostle of Allah said, “These are not alike for khalíl Allahis taken from khallah or khullah and the meaning of khallah is poverty and neediness. He was a friend of his Lord and needy of Him, chastely, abstemiously and independently separated from all but Him. Because when they wanted to throw him into the fire and to cast him with a catapult, Allah, the Exalted, raised Gabriel and said to him, ‘Catch My servant!’ Gabriel came to him, met him in the air, and said, ‘Commission me for what happened to you, for Allah the Exalted rised me to help you.’ He said, ‘But Allah is sufficient for me and He is the best Trustee (wakíl). I ask no one but Him and there is no need for me unless of Him.’

Then He named him His friend (khalíl), that means His poor and needy, and who is separated from all but Him. When the meaning of khalíl is taken from need (khullah) and he is needy (takhalal) of Him and knows His secrets that no one else knows, it means that he knows Him and His affairs. And it doesnot cause the likeness of Allah to him. Do not you see that if he did not separate from all but Him, he would not have been His friend, and if he did not know His secrets he would not have been His friend. One’s father is he of whom one is born, even if his father slanders him and sends him far away, for the meaning of being born of him remains.

Then if it is necessary for you to compare Jesus with Abraham and say Jesus is His son for He said, ‘Abraham is My friend,’ it is necessary for you to say, ‘Moses is His son,’ For his miracles were no less than the miracles of Jesus. So you should say ‘Moses is His son too.’ And it is permitted for you to say, ‘He is his shaykh, master, uncle, chief and commander,’ in the meaning that I said it to the Jews.” Then some of the Christians said, “According to the revealed books Jesus said, ‘I go to my father.’” The Apostle of Allah said, “If you do according to that book, you should say, ‘All of the people that He addressed were His sons as Jesus was his son.’ For according to that book, Jesus said, ‘I go to Him who is my father and yours.’

Then something that is in that book makes invalid what you think, that only Jesus is His son because he was so distinguished. For you said, ‘Jesus is His son because He, the Exalted, distinguished him by that which He did not distinguish the others.’ But you know that Jesus was chosen for something that this group was not chosen for, and Jesus said to this group, ‘I go to Him who is my father and yours.’ So it is wrong that only Jesus is chosen. For this is proven for you [that Jesus is not distinguished as His son] by the saying of Jesus to those who were not so distinguished. You narrated the words of Jesus but you interpreted it wrongly. For when he said, ‘my father and yours’ he wanted to say something you do not say and impute. What do you know? Perhaps it was in his mind, ‘I go to Adam and Noah. Allah raises me to them and gathers me with them. Adam is my father and your father, and Noah is likewise.’ But he did not mean anything but this meaning.” The Christians became silent; then they said, “We did not see a disputant or an opponent like what we saw today, and we will think about our affairs….”
(Tafsír al-Imàm al-‘Askarí, 530-535, 323)

[Christianlady]

Hello LoveforTruth,

Could you please answer my questions? Thanks. What do you believe concerning the Messianic prophecies below, concerning the Messiah being the Son of God, who calls God "Father."? Jesus fulfills them, and all throughout the accounts about what Jesus said and did, it is clear that Jesus taught that God is His Father, and our Father, and that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God.

1 Chronicles 17 -  http://www.mechon-ma...on-mamre.org/

[LoveforTruth]

Every Muslim accepts Jesus as the Messiah who came and will come back at the end of the Time :

إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ﴿٤٥﴾

God says in the Quran : "When the angels said, 'O Mary, Allah gives thee glad tidings of a son through a word from HIM; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;
'And he shall speak to the people in the cradle, and when of middle age, and he shall be of the righteous..."

If you read well the Gospel, you'll read that Jesus (peace be upon him) doesn't confirm that he's the son of God, but corrects the priest by saying he's the Son of Man :



The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
⁶⁴ “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Anyway, being son of God is always symbolics, because as I said, in the Bible, there are many "sons of God", i.e. SPIRITUALLY.

Edited by LoveforTruth, 07 April 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[Christianlady]

LoveforTruth, on 07 April 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Every Muslim accepts Jesus as the Messiah who came and will come back at the end of the Time :

إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ﴿٤٥﴾


God says in the Quran : "When the angels said, 'O Mary, Allah gives thee glad tidings of a son through a word from HIM; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;
'And he shall speak to the people in the cradle, and when of middle age, and he shall be of the righteous..."

Hello LoveforTruth,

Jesus being the Son of God goes with the Messianic promise in 2 Samuel 7:12-17, 1 Chronicles 17:11-15, Psalm 2, and Psalm 89:19-29.

Quote

If you read well the Gospel, you'll read that Jesus (peace be upon him) doesn't confirm that he's the son of God, but corrects the priest by saying he's the Son of Man :



The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
⁶⁴ “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

If you read well the Gospel, the leader of the apostles who Jesus chose and who walked and talked with him, confessed that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God.

Matthew 16 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"¹³ When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
¹⁴ They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
   ¹⁵ “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
¹⁶ Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
¹⁷ Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven."

Jesus is the Son of Man = the Messiah, the Son of the living God. Jesus told Simon Peter that he was blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal the Truth that Jesus is the Messiah, Son of God to him (Peter) but rather God, the Father of Jesus!

Quote

Anyway, being son of God is always symbolics, because as I said, in the Bible, there are many "sons of God", i.e. SPIRITUALLY.

Jesus was born of a virgin and fulfills and will fulfill the Messianic prophesies and promises God gave to King David and the children of Israel.

Peace and God bless you

[placid]

Hi LoveforTruth,

Quote: The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." --- End of quote.


When the High priest said, "Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God?"
--- Jesus replied, "You have said so," or, "It is as you say."

This verifies that Jesus was who they said He was, but He referred to Himself as 'The Son of Man.'
--- However, He also said, "From now on you will see 'the Son of Man' sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One (God).

This signifies that He was more than a man, --- and the prophecy of Him 'coming on the clouds of heaven,' is yet to come.

You are right to say that the 'Son of God' is a figure of speech, becaue others are Called sons of God. --- This is the relationship of believers to God. When the angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would have a son, he said in Luke 1:

30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest;

34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

Gabriel didn't say, "He is the Son of God," --- but that "He will be CALLED the Son of God," --- which He has been from then till now.
--- And with the Father-Son relationship, when we become believers, we are 'adopted' into the 'Family of God' as children.

1 John 3:2 says, "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

--- In that sense there should be no offense in Jesus being CALLED the Son of God, even as He always called God His heavenly Father.

[hasanhh]

ChristianLady: The Gospel of John is known in seminaries as "the problem of John" because Gospel of John contradicts itself across chapters and even within chapters.

A couple of things in John are legit -so to speak- but the rest of it is commentary and doctrine added later. Legit as in the tales of what the God of Noah(swt) did to authenticate him(as) most likely happened nearly as described. Because they were so famous in their own time.

But the key element for most Christian's Choice is in John 8 were Jesus(as) says of Satan/Shatan "he is the Father of Lies" and he has "been a liar from the beginning".

So reading through all four Gospels -none of which reflect the Injil- and keeping track of who says what and you get the Biblically forced conclusion: "Bible says, Satan says, "son of god"" or 'Bible says, Liar says, "son of god", or "Bible says, Liar Satan says, "son of god"'.
Now, this leaves two other cases. The supposed quote of Peter (Thou art...) in Matthew is not the story same as in Mark and Luke. Peter is not thus quoted.
The other case is the beginning of Mark. The Gospel of Mark was co-opted from the Secret Book of Mark (Alexandrian Library) to control what was said about it, to eliminate the two verses that express Jesus' allegded homosexuality, but retained the Satanic opening even though this is contradicted in later verses (Offhand: "a fiflthy spirit came and said/saying 'son of god' ")

So as we were told in Confirmation study, you have a choice: are you going to follow what the God of Noah(swt) says, or are you going to call the "Words of the Devil 'good'"  and follow that.

As a quick reference, to follow what the God of Noah(swt) says: Deuteronomy 5, Exodus 20 & 21, Isaih 43, Mark 11:28ff.

[Son of Placid]

hasanhh, on 08 April 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

ChristianLady: The Gospel of John is known in seminaries as "the problem of John" because Gospel of John contradicts itself across chapters and even within chapters.

A couple of things in John are legit -so to speak- but the rest of it is commentary and doctrine added later. Legit as in the tales of what the God of Noah(swt) did to authenticate him(as) most likely happened nearly as described. Because they were so famous in their own time.

But the key element for most Christian's Choice is in John 8 were Jesus(as) says of Satan/Shatan "he is the Father of Lies" and he has "been a liar from the beginning".

So reading through all four Gospels -none of which reflect the Injil- and keeping track of who says what and you get the Biblically forced conclusion: "Bible says, Satan says, "son of god"" or 'Bible says, Liar says, "son of god", or "Bible says, Liar Satan says, "son of god"'.
Now, this leaves two other cases. The supposed quote of Peter (Thou art...) in Matthew is not the story same as in Mark and Luke. Peter is not thus quoted.
The other case is the beginning of Mark. The Gospel of Mark was co-opted from the Secret Book of Mark (Alexandrian Library) to control what was said about it, to eliminate the two verses that express Jesus' allegded homosexuality, but retained the Satanic opening even though this is contradicted in later verses (Offhand: "a fiflthy spirit came and said/saying 'son of god' ")

So as we were told in Confirmation study, you have a choice: are you going to follow what the God of Noah(swt) says, or are you going to call the "Words of the Devil 'good'"  and follow that.

As a quick reference, to follow what the God of Noah(swt) says: Deuteronomy 5, Exodus 20 & 21, Isaih 43, Mark 11:28ff.

That's just messed up, kinda like;.
David Yetter proposed a weaker structural rule in place of the exchange rule of linear logic, yielding cyclic linear logic. Sequents of cyclic linear logic form a ring, and so are invariant under rotation, where multipremise rules glue their rings together at the formulae described in the rules. The calculus supports three structural modalities, a self-dual modality allowing exchange, but still linear, and the usual exponentials (? and !) of linear logic, allowing nonlinear structural rules to be used together with exchange.

[LoveforTruth]

Of course, this is a symbolic expression, and Jesus ('Issa ) used it for anyone who will follow the True Path to God (Allah)  :



Matthew 5:9

New International Version (NIV)

⁹ Blessed are the peacemakers,
   for they will be called children of God.

Edited by LoveforTruth, 09 April 2012 - 03:57 AM.

[hasanhh]

Son of Placid, on 08 April 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

That's just messed up, kinda like;.
David Yetter proposed a weaker structural rule in place of the exchange rule of linear logic, yielding cyclic linear logic. Sequents of cyclic linear logic form a ring, and so are invariant under rotation, where multipremise rules glue their rings together at the formulae described in the rules. The calculus supports three structural modalities, a self-dual modality allowing exchange, but still linear, and the usual exponentials (? and !) of linear logic, allowing nonlinear structural rules to be used together with exchange.

Good thing you used the"winkie". While reading your post I was starting to think you were 'deranged'.
But then, my wives say I am 'crazy'.
"takes one to know one"? eh?
Salam

LoveforTruth, on 09 April 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

Of course, this is a symbolic expression, and Jesus ('Issa ) used it for anyone who will follow the True Path to God (Allah)  :



Matthew 5:9

New International Version (NIV)

⁹ Blessed are the peacemakers,
   for they will be called children of God.

"children of god": " good grief" as Charlie Brown was known to say.

This kind of expression reminds me of Japanese. No, I ain't kidding.
The Japs are taught that there are three races: yellow, black & white.
So which is a Jap? None of the three. Because they are all "somehow" related to the Emperor, they are all thereby 'divine'.
Same self-righteous/better-than-you arrogance you see in the white-trash that believe they are "a child of god".

"good grief", what kind of "god" would have these people as "children"?

A question though: who was god's wife? Or wives?

Edited by hasanhh, 09 April 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[Son of Placid]

hasanhh, on 09 April 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Good thing you used the"winkie". While reading your post I was starting to think you were 'deranged'.
But then, my wives say I am 'crazy'.
"takes one to know one"? eh?
Salam

Hey, I didn't make that stuff up...David Yetter did, lol.

Quote

"children of god": " good grief" as Charlie Brown was known to say.

This kind of expression reminds me of Japanese. No, I ain't kidding.
The Japs are taught that there are three races: yellow, black & white.
So which is a Jap? None of the three. Because they are all "somehow" related to the Emperor, they are all thereby 'divine'.
Same self-righteous/better-than-you arrogance you see in the white-trash that believe they are "a child of god".

"good grief", what kind of "god" would have these people as "children"?

Aren't you glad God gets to make those calls?

Quote

A question though: who was god's wife? Or wives?

From what I understand Muslims can have wives, Christians can have wife, and God knows better than to ever get involved.

God, able to create male and female is above gender.

[LoveforTruth]

Here is a longer version of this long debate between the Christians and the Messenger of Allah (saws), explaining more about the meaning of "Son of God" :

The Messenger of Allah (saww) said: 'I (saww) believe in One Allah (azwj) without any partner with Him (azwj), and disbelieve in all creators apart from Him (azwj). Then he (saww) said to them: 'Allah (azwj) has Sent me to all people as a good News and as a ‘Warner’ to them, a Proof over all the worlds. And Allah (azwj) will Repel all the plots from the plotters against His (azwj) Religion back upon them'.

Then he (saww) said to the Jews: 'You have come to me (saww) so that I (saww) should accept your words without proof?'

They said: 'No'.

He (saww) said: 'Then what makes you claim that Uzair is the son of Allah (azwj)?'

They said: 'Because, he revived the Torah for the Children of Israel after it had gone away, and he would not have done this had he not been His (azwj) son'.

The Messenger of Allah (saww) said: 'How did Uzair become the son of Allah (azwj) and not Musa when it was him that went to them with the Torah, and they saw from him miracles that you know about? And if Uzair is the son of Allah (azwj) when his prestige was manifested from the revival of the Torah, Musa was more deserving and higher, if this is the scale from the prestige of Uzair which necessitates him being His (azwj) son, Musa 's prestige is more and it would necessitate him to have a status higher than that of a son. Your understanding from a son, is to be a product of the union of a father and a mother that you witness in this world. This would make you to be disbelievers in Allah (azwj) for giving Him (azwj) a resemblance to His (azwj) creation, and it would necessitate you in this, by the qualities that you have narrated, that there would be a creator who created Him (azwj), who would be from the beginning'.

They said: 'We do not mean this, for this is infidelity as you (saww) have mentioned. But, we mean by this that he is His (azwj) son due to the dignity that he had, and there is no birth over there. This is like when some of our scholars, when they intend to bestow status on someone apart from the others, they refer to him as: 'O my son!' and 'He is my son!' There is no birth involved here, for they have referred to him with that and he is a stranger with whom they have no biological connection. And similarly, when Uzair did that which he did, He (azwj) Took him as a son to bestow prestige, and not as a (son by) birth'.

The Messenger of Allah (saww) said: 'This is what I (saww) have been telling you. If this necessitates Uzair to be the son of Allah (azwj), then the status of Musa is higher, and Allah (azwj) Exposes all falsehood that is being said and Overturns to him as a proof. You are arguing in your claim that greatness is bestowed upon the stranger, when there is no biological connection between them, by saying about him that, this is my son but not from birth, then it will also be a matter of greater prestige to refer to another stranger, that this is my brother, and to another that, this is my Sheikh, and to another that, this is my Chief, by way of prestige.

It would be a matter of greater prestige by this talk, with you, that Musa should be referred to as the brother of Allah (azwj) or His (azwj) Sheikh, or father or Chief, for these are more prestigious titles. You would say to him: 'O my Chief, and O my Sheikh, and O my uncle, and O my President, O my commander, by way of prestige. The more prestigious a person, then the more prestigious a title he is referred to. Is it permissible among you to refer to Musa as the brother of Allah (azwj), or Sheikh, or uncle, or president, or chief, or commander? Because the more prestigious a person is the more prestigious way he is referred to: 'O my Sheikh, or O my Chief, or O my Uncle, or O my President, of O my Commander'.

Imam Hassan Al-Askari (as) said: 'The Jews were speechless and confused and said: 'O Muhammad (saww)! Give us some time to ponder over what you (saww) have said to us'.

He (saww) said: 'Look into this with a believing heart and Allah (azwj) will Guide you'.

Then he (saww) turned towards the Christians and said to them: 'And you are saying that the Almighty Who (azwj), from the beginning is united with the Messiah, His (azwj) son. What do you intend with this?

Do you intend by this that the One Who (azwj) is from before, is with the one who was created after, and he is Isa ?

Or that the created one, who is Isa has been with the eternal One from before Who is Allah (azwj)?

Or do you mean by your words "He (azwj) is united with him (as)", he (as) has been honoured especially, and no one else other than him (as) has been so?

If you intend that the eternal High One (azwj) is together with the temporal one, this is invalid, for it is impossible for the eternal Being to be with the temporal one from before.

And if you intend that the temporal being is with the Eternal Being, it is impossible, for the temporal being, as well, cannot be with the Eternal Being from before.

If you intend that heas has been united with Him (azwj), and has been Made to be special and chosen over the rest of His (azwj) servants, then you would be invalidating that heas has been united with Him (azwj) from before.

And if Allah (azwj) was united with him (as), meaning together withhim (as) being the prestigious one of the creation, and is therefore a temporal being, this would be against what you had said before'.

Imam Hassan Al-Askari (as) said: 'The Christians said: 'O Muhammad (saww)! When Allah (azwj) Manifested by the hands of Isa (as) strange things that He (azwj) Manifested, He (azwj) Took him (as) to be His (azwj) son by the way of giving prestige'.

The Messenger of Allah (saww) said to them: 'You have heard what I (saww) have said to the Jews in this meaning that you are mentioning to me (saww)'.

Then he (saww) repeated that to all of them. They were all silent, except for one man from them who said: 'O Muhammad (saww)! Are you (saww) not saying that Ibrahim (as) is the Friend of Allah (azwj)?'

He (saww): 'We say that'.

He said: 'If you (saww) are saying that, why are you (saww) stopping us saying that Isa (as) is the son of Allah (azwj)?'

The Messenger of Allah (saww) said: 'These two are not similar. We (saww) are saying that Ibrahim (as) is the Friend (Khaleel) of Allah (azwj), it is derived from 'Khullat' or 'Khallat'. If you take as being derived from 'Khullat', then it stands for poverty and destitution. The Friend of Allah (azwj) is needy to his (as) Lord (azwj), and to Him (azwj) he (as) is, being cut off from the others, needless of others. And that when he (as) was catapulted into the fire, Allah (azwj) Sent Jibraeel (as) and Said to him: 'Consider My (azwj) servant'.

He (as) flew and met him (as) in mid-air, and said: 'Ask me, for Allah (azwj) has Sent me for your help'. He (as) said: 'But sufficient for me (as) is Allah (azwj) and is the best Disposer of affairs. Ias do not ask other than Him (azwj), and have no need from any, other than Him (azwj)'. He (as) was Named as Friend (Khaleel), poor to Him (azwj), needy of Him (azwj), and the one cut off from all apart from Him (azwj).

And if you were to take that meaning from 'Khullat', and heas would be involved, by this meaning, and was Made aware of such secrets that apart fromhim (as) no one else had the knowledge of, and His (azwj) Orders, and this does not necessitate the likening of Allah (azwj) with His (azwj) creation. Do you see that had he (as) not cut himself off from others, heas would not have been His (azwj) Friend? And if heas was not aware of His (azwj) Secrets heas would not have been His (azwj) Friend? And one who is a son of a man, whether he is insulted by him or thrown out, it does not exit him from being his son? This is because the meaning of son by birth has been established.

Then it necessitates, because Allah (azwj) has Referred to Ibrahim (as) as a Friend, in your analogy by saying that Isa (as) is His (azwj) son, then this would also necessitate Musa (as) as well to be referred by you as His (azwj) son, because he (as) had miracles similar to those of Isa (as). You would also call Musa (as) as His (azwj) son as well, and it would permit you to say in this meaning: 'His (azwj) Sheikh, and His (azwj) Chief, and His (azwj) Uncle, and His (azwj) President, and His (azwj) Commander, as I mentioned to the Jews'.

One of them said: 'And it is in the Book Sent down, that Isa (as) said: 'I am going to my Father (azwj)'.

The Messenger of Allah (saww) said: 'If you are doing things according to that Book, then it is there "I am going to my Father (azwj) and your Father (azwj)".

All those that have been addressed here were sons of Allah (azwj) just like Isa (as) was His (azwj) son, by the same token.

Then, what is in this Book invalidates this meaning of yours that you are thinking of, that son-ship is especially for Isa (as). You are saying that he (as) is His (azwj) son, for the Almighty has made him (as) to be special apart from others, and you know that Isa (as) was Made to be special which the other people were not made to be, those that were addressed byhim (as) when he (as) said: 'I am going to my Father (azwj) and your Father (as).

This invalidates the specialisation of Isa (as), for it has been established by you that there is no one special like Isa (as) and the same words have been used for others "my Father (azwj) and your Father (azwj)" and could have meant something other than what you have taken it to be for he could be saying that: 'I am going to Adam (as), and to Noah (as). Allah (azwj) will Elevate me (as) like them and Make me to be with them, and Adam is my father and your father, and similarly, Noah (as). But, in fact, he did not mean anything other than this by it'.

Imam Hassan Al-Askari (as) said: 'The Christians were silenced and said: 'We have not seen an arguer like the one today, and we shall look into our affairs'.

[LoveforTruth]

Matthew 21:10

When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, "Who is this?"
The crowds answered, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee."

Luke 24:19 :

"...Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:.." (Lk 24:19).

Yazíd al-Kunàsí said, “I asked Abu Ja‘far [Imam Bàqir], ‘Was Jesus the son of Mary the authority from Allah for the people of his time when he spoke from the cradle?’

He said, ‘He was on that day a prophet, an authority from Allah, but not a messenger. Did you not hear his saying when he said,

Verily, I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book, and has made me a prophet, and has made me blessed wherever I may be. And He has enjoined on me prayer and charity (zakàh) as long as I live. (19:30-31)

I said, “Then was he an authority of Allah for Zachariahu on that day in those circumstances while he was in the cradle?”

He said, “Jesus was a sign for the people in those circumstances and mercy from Allah for Mary when he spoke, and he spoke up for her, and he was a prophet and an authority from Allah for those who heard his speech in those circumstances.

Then he was quiet, and he did not speak until two years had passed. And Zachariahu was the authority from Allah after the silence of Jesus for two years.

Then Zachariah died. John, his son, inherited the Book and wisdom from him, while he was a small child. Have you not heard what He, the Mighty and Majestic, has said, O John! Hold the Book fast, and We granted him wisdom while yet a child. (19:12)?

When Jesus reached seven years he spoke as a prophet and messenger, while he received revelation from Allah, the Exalted.

So, Jesus was the authority for John and all the people.

O Abu Khàlid [Yazíd]! The earth cannot endure even for a single day without an authority from Allah for all people, from the day that Allah created Adam (‘a) and settled him on earth.”
(Kàfí, 1, 382, 1)

Edited by LoveforTruth, 10 April 2012 - 04:08 AM.

[LoveforTruth]

God - Allah says in the Holy Quran : “The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!” [Qur’an, Tauba 9:30]

Al-Hussein ibn Ali (s) said that a Jew asked Ali ibn Abi Talib (s), “Inform me about what is not for God, what is not with God, and what God does not know.”

Ali (s) said, “What God does not know is what your nation - the Jewish people - say that ‘Uzair is the son of God’[52].

God does not consider anyone to be His son.

What is not for God is a partner since He does not have any.

And what is not with God is oppressing the servants.”

The Jew said, “I bear witness that there is no god but God, and that Muhammad is God’s Prophet (s).”

172 - وَبِهذَا الإِسناد عَنِ الحُسَيْنِ بْنِ عَلِى‏عَلَيْهِمَا السَّلاَمُ قالَ: إِنَّ يَهُودِيّاً سَأَلَ عَلِىِّ بْنِ أَبِي طالِب‏ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ فَقالَ: أَخْبِرنِي عَمَّا لَيْسَ لِلَّهِ، وَعَمَّا لَيْسَ عِنْدَ اللَّه، وَعَمَّا لا يَعلَمُهُ اللَّه تَعالى‏، قالَ عَلِيِ‏ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ: أَمَّا ما لا يَعلَمُهُ اللَّهُ فَذلِكَ قَولَكُمْ يا مَعْشَرَ اليَهُود عَزِيرٌ ابْنِ اللَّه وَاللَّه لا يَعْلَمُ لَهُ اِبْنا وَأَمَّا قَوْلُكَ: ما لَيْسَ لِلَّهِ فَلَيْسَ لَهُ شَرِيك وَأَمَّا قَوْلُكَ: ما لَيْسَ عِنْدَ اللَّه فَلَيْسَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ ظُلمٌ لِلعِباد فَقالَ اليَهُودي: أَشْهَدُ أَن لا إِلهَ إِلاّ اللَّه وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّداً رَسُولَ اللَّهِ‏ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ.

[Dam3il Husayn]

In surat Al-Ikhlas, it says:
Bismillah al Ra7man al Ra7eem:
Qul Huwa Allah A7ad
Allah L Samad
LAM YALID WA LAM YOOLAD(HE DOESN"T GET CHILDREN!)
Wa Lam Yakun Lahu Kufwan A7ad
Sadaqa Allahu Al 3aliyyu Al 3azeem

[Saintly_Jinn23]

Just so OP knows, the excerpt from the Tafsir is obviously a specific argument against the early Christian idea, that is known to still be around at the time of Muhammad and the Imams called "Adoptionism," which was a non-Trinitarian (or at least less Trinitarian) form of Christianity that began to gain popularity in the late 2nd Century CE.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Adoptionism

Quote

Adoptionism, sometimes called dynamic monarchianism, is a minority Christian belief that Jesus was adopted as God's son at his baptism.

Quote

Under Adoptionism Jesus is currently divine (that is deified) and has been since his adoption, although he is not equal to the Father, per "my Father is greater than I"

One would be wise not to bring tafsir excerpts or hadiths like OP's post in hopes of arguing a clear argument against all modern Christians. Christianity is not the same state as it was at the times of the Imams and many Christian sects that the Ahlul Bayt may have had contact with in their lifetime are now extinct.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23, 28 April 2012 - 01:09 AM.

[zulfeeqar]

Christianlady, on 07 April 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Hello LoveforTruth,

Jesus being the Son of God goes with the Messianic promise in 2 Samuel 7:12-17, 1 Chronicles 17:11-15, Psalm 2, and Psalm 89:19-29.


If you read well the Gospel, the leader of the apostles who Jesus chose and who walked and talked with him, confessed that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God.

Matthew 16 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"¹³ When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
¹⁴ They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
   ¹⁵ “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
¹⁶ Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
¹⁷ Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven."

Jesus is the Son of Man = the Messiah, the Son of the living God. Jesus told Simon Peter that he was blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal the Truth that Jesus is the Messiah, Son of God to him (Peter) but rather God, the Father of Jesus!




Jesus was born of a virgin and fulfills and will fulfill the Messianic prophesies and promises God gave to King David and the children of Israel.

Peace and God bless you

Dear ,

who was the father of Adam and Eve??

[placid]

Hi Zulfeeqar,


Sorry to be so slow in responding to your question.

It says in Genesis 2:7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

So God was the 'Creator' of Adam and Eve as He was the Creator of all things.
--- Therfore we can say that Adam was the son of God, --- God was his Father.

In the genealogy of Jesus through Mary, which goes back to the beginning, in Luke 3:38, Adam is called 'the son of God'.


Surah 3:
59. The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

Adam was created perfect and it was not till later that he and Eve were disobedient to God and were put out of the Garden of Paradise. --- Adam was created perfect through God saying "Be!" and he was, --- and Adam was CALLED the son of God,

And it says of Jesus in Surah 19:
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

--- Jesus was not God, or a god, --- through this unnatural Virgin Birth, --- but Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, as it says in Luke 1:
34. Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

--- I capitalized the word CALLED to emphasize that the angel Gabriel did not say that 'He would be God,' or that 'He WAS to Son of God' --- but that He would be CALLED the Son of God, --- as He has been, and still is today.

[zulfeeqar]

placid, on 03 May 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Hi Zulfeeqar,


Sorry to be so slow in responding to your question.

It says in Genesis 2:7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

So God was the 'Creator' of Adam and Eve as He was the Creator of all things.
--- Therfore we can say that Adam was the son of God, --- God was his Father.

In the genealogy of Jesus through Mary, which goes back to the beginning, in Luke 3:38, Adam is called 'the son of God'.


Surah 3:
59. The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

Adam was created perfect and it was not till later that he and Eve were disobedient to God and were put out of the Garden of Paradise. --- Adam was created perfect through God saying "Be!" and he was, --- and Adam was CALLED the son of God,

And it says of Jesus in Surah 19:
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

--- Jesus was not God, or a god, --- through this unnatural Virgin Birth, --- but Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, as it says in Luke 1:
34. Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

--- I capitalized the word CALLED to emphasize that the angel Gabriel did not say that 'He would be God,' or that 'He WAS to Son of God' --- but that He would be CALLED the Son of God, --- as He has been, and still is today.

Dear placid,

i did refer to Luke 3:38 with the new testament that is with me. it was nice and educating to see it.

However, two points;

1-   It was after all by Luke, and it was luke who mentioned Adam in the ganeology as Son of God. but you need to come up with more rigorous proof of Adam being the son of God, not through ganeology given by luke etc. But by God himself.

Yet in contrast i read  the words of God particularly when i read in Genesis;

Genesis (2:7) "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

How would you reconcile this, unless proven its contradictory.

and if you try to prove this that being the creator God is the father of Adam then next step is try to disprove that why you as a ""placid"  should not be called the son of God since God is the creator of all.

so this is my point precisely.

2- One more thing, so under this understanding, Eve is also the daughter of God. so God has two sons and one daughter!!!

regarding CALLED or what. i will not go in to detail. if you dont believe that Jesus is not the son of God, then you should say clearly that people calling him are "wrong" in their judgement. and angel did not meant to say that he is actually the son of God

Edited by zulfeeqar, 04 May 2012 - 08:45 AM.

[Christianlady]

hasanhh, on 08 April 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

ChristianLady: The Gospel of John is known in seminaries as "the problem of John" because Gospel of John contradicts itself across chapters and even within chapters.

Hello Hasanhh,

I have been to seminary, and I have never heard of the Gospel of John being referred to by the title you say. Could you please give an example John cotradicting itself please? Thanks.

Quote

A couple of things in John are legit -so to speak- but the rest of it is commentary and doctrine added later. Legit as in the tales of what the God of Noah(swt) did to authenticate him(as) most likely happened nearly as described. Because they were so famous in their own time.

But the key element for most Christian's Choice is in John 8 were Jesus(as) says of Satan/Shatan "he is the Father of Lies" and he has "been a liar from the beginning".

So reading through all four Gospels -none of which reflect the Injil- and keeping track of who says what and you get the Biblically forced conclusion: "Bible says, Satan says, "son of god"" or 'Bible says, Liar says, "son of god", or "Bible says, Liar Satan says, "son of god"'.
Now, this leaves two other cases. The supposed quote of Peter (Thou art...) in Matthew is not the story same as in Mark and Luke. Peter is not thus quoted.
The other case is the beginning of Mark. The Gospel of Mark was co-opted from the Secret Book of Mark (Alexandrian Library) to control what was said about it, to eliminate the two verses that express Jesus' allegded homosexuality, but retained the Satanic opening even though this is contradicted in later verses (Offhand: "a fiflthy spirit came and said/saying 'son of god' ")

So as we were told in Confirmation study, you have a choice: are you going to follow what the God of Noah(swt) says, or are you going to call the "Words of the Devil 'good'"  and follow that.

As a quick reference, to follow what the God of Noah(swt) says: Deuteronomy 5, Exodus 20 & 21, Isaih 43, Mark 11:28ff.

If you would like to start another thread concerning what is written in John concernin satan, please feel free to and if God wills, I will respond.

However, concerning the topic at hand,  it is very clear in the Tanakh that the Messiah, the descendant that God promised King David would be on his throne forever, would be from his (King David's) offspring and that God would call him "son" and the he would call God "Father." So, the Messiah is the Son of God... that is part of the Messianic prophesy.

Please consider the following passages from the Tanakh:

2 Samuel 7 - http://www.mechon-ma.../pt/pt08b07.htm
(I boldened some.)

  יב  כִּי יִמְלְאוּ יָמֶיךָ, וְשָׁכַבְתָּ אֶת-אֲבֹתֶיךָ, וַהֲקִימֹתִי אֶת-זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ, אֲשֶׁר יֵצֵא מִמֵּעֶיךָ; וַהֲכִינֹתִי, אֶת-מַמְלַכְתּוֹ. 12 When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy body, and I will establish his kingdom.   יג  הוּא יִבְנֶה-בַּיִת, לִשְׁמִי; וְכֹנַנְתִּי אֶת-כִּסֵּא מַמְלַכְתּוֹ, עַד-עוֹלָם. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.   יד  אֲנִי אֶהְיֶה-לּוֹ לְאָב, וְהוּא יִהְיֶה-לִּי לְבֵן--אֲשֶׁר, בְּהַעֲו‍ֹתוֹ, וְהֹכַחְתִּיו בְּשֵׁבֶט אֲנָשִׁים, וּבְנִגְעֵי בְּנֵי אָדָם. 14 I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men;   טו  וְחַסְדִּי, לֹא-יָסוּר מִמֶּנּוּ, כַּאֲשֶׁר הֲסִרֹתִי מֵעִם שָׁאוּל, אֲשֶׁר הֲסִרֹתִי מִלְּפָנֶיךָ. 15 but My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.   טז  וְנֶאְמַן בֵּיתְךָ וּמַמְלַכְתְּךָ עַד-עוֹלָם, לְפָנֶיךָ:  כִּסְאֲךָ, יִהְיֶה נָכוֹן עַד-עוֹלָם. 16 And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee; thy throne shall be established for ever.'   יז  כְּכֹל הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה, וּכְכֹל הַחִזָּיוֹן הַזֶּה--כֵּן דִּבֶּר נָתָן, אֶל-דָּוִד.  {פ} 17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. {P}

1 Chronicles 17 - http://www.mechon-ma.../pt/pt25a17.htm
(I boldened some.)   יא  וְהָיָה, כִּי-מָלְאוּ יָמֶיךָ לָלֶכֶת עִם-אֲבֹתֶיךָ, וַהֲקִימוֹתִי אֶת-זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ, אֲשֶׁר יִהְיֶה מִבָּנֶיךָ; וַהֲכִינוֹתִי, אֶת-מַלְכוּתוֹ. 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days are fulfilled that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will set up thy seed after thee, who shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.   יב  הוּא יִבְנֶה-לִּי, בָּיִת; וְכֹנַנְתִּי אֶת-כִּסְאוֹ, עַד-עוֹלָם. 12 He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever.   יג  אֲנִי אֶהְיֶה-לּוֹ לְאָב, וְהוּא יִהְיֶה-לִּי לְבֵן; וְחַסְדִּי, לֹא-אָסִיר מֵעִמּוֹ, כַּאֲשֶׁר הֲסִירוֹתִי, מֵאֲשֶׁר הָיָה לְפָנֶיךָ. 13 I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee;   יד  וְהַעֲמַדְתִּיהוּ בְּבֵיתִי וּבְמַלְכוּתִי, עַד-הָעוֹלָם; וְכִסְאוֹ, יִהְיֶה נָכוֹן עַד-עוֹלָם. 14 but I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom for ever; and his throne shall be established for ever.'   טו  כְּכֹל הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה, וּכְכֹל הֶחָזוֹן הַזֶּה--כֵּן דִּבֶּר נָתָן, אֶל-דָּוִיד.  {פ}
15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. {P}

Psalm 2 - http://www.mechon-ma...p/pt/pt2602.htm
(I boldened some.)

" .'   ד  יוֹשֵׁב בַּשָּׁמַיִם יִשְׂחָק: אֲדֹנָי, יִלְעַג-לָמוֹ. 4 He that sitteth in heaven laugheth, the Lord hath them in derision.   ה  אָז יְדַבֵּר אֵלֵימוֹ בְאַפּוֹ; וּבַחֲרוֹנוֹ יְבַהֲלֵמוֹ. 5 Then will He speak unto them in His wrath, and affright them in His sore displeasure:   ו  וַאֲנִי, נָסַכְתִּי מַלְכִּי: עַל-צִיּוֹן, הַר-קָדְשִׁי. 6 'Truly it is I that have established My king upon Zion, My holy mountain.'   ז  אֲסַפְּרָה, אֶל-חֹק: יְהוָה, אָמַר אֵלַי בְּנִי אַתָּה--אֲנִי, הַיּוֹם יְלִדְתִּיךָ. 7 I will tell of the decree: the LORD said unto me: 'Thou art My son, this day have I begotten thee.   ח  שְׁאַל מִמֶּנִּי--וְאֶתְּנָה גוֹיִם, נַחֲלָתֶךָ; וַאֲחֻזָּתְךָ, אַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession.

Psalm 89 -
  כא  מָצָאתִי, דָּוִד עַבְדִּי; בְּשֶׁמֶן קָדְשִׁי מְשַׁחְתִּיו. 21 I have found David My servant; with My holy oil have I anointed him;   כב  אֲשֶׁר יָדִי, תִּכּוֹן עִמּוֹ; אַף-זְרוֹעִי תְאַמְּצֶנּוּ. 22 With whom My hand shall be established; Mine arm also shall strengthen him.   כג  לֹא-יַשִּׁיא אוֹיֵב בּוֹ; וּבֶן-עַוְלָה, לֹא יְעַנֶּנּוּ. 23 The enemy shall not exact from him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.   כד  וְכַתּוֹתִי מִפָּנָיו צָרָיו; וּמְשַׂנְאָיו אֶגּוֹף. 24 And I will beat to pieces his adversaries before him, and smite them that hate him.   כה  וֶאֱמוּנָתִי וְחַסְדִּי עִמּוֹ; וּבִשְׁמִי, תָּרוּם קַרְנוֹ. 25 But My faithfulness and My mercy shall be with him; and through My name shall his horn be exalted.   כו  וְשַׂמְתִּי בַיָּם יָדוֹ; וּבַנְּהָרוֹת יְמִינוֹ. 26 I will set his hand also on the sea, and his right hand on the rivers.   כז  הוּא יִקְרָאֵנִי, אָבִי אָתָּה; אֵלִי, וְצוּר יְשׁוּעָתִי. 27 He shall call unto Me: Thou art my Father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.   כח  אַף-אָנִי, בְּכוֹר אֶתְּנֵהוּ; עֶלְיוֹן, לְמַלְכֵי-אָרֶץ. 28 I also will appoint him first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth.   כט  לְעוֹלָם, אשמור- (אֶשְׁמָר-) לוֹ חַסְדִּי; וּבְרִיתִי, נֶאֱמֶנֶת לוֹ. 29 For ever will I keep for him My mercy, and My covenant shall stand fast with him.

So, Jesus being the Son of God, calling God his Father and God calling him His son, is a part of the Messianic promise.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 04 May 2012 - 11:43 AM.

[LoveforTruth]

Hello,


please ChristianLady and Placid,

could you give us the definition of "Son of God" concerning Jesus 'alayhi Salam. How did God act to create him ? And in what is God a different Father to him than for us ?

Edited by LoveforTruth, 04 May 2012 - 04:48 PM.

[placid]

Hi Zulfeegar,

Quote from Post 18:

1- It was after all by Luke, and it was luke who mentioned Adam in the ganeology as Son of God. but you need to come up with more rigorous proof of Adam being the son of God, not through ganeology given by luke etc. But by God himself.


Response: --- It is not necessesary to prove anything beyond what is written in Genesis and Surah 7.

--- Quote: Yet in contrast i read the words of God particularly when i read in Genesis;
Genesis (2:7) "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
How would you reconcile this, unless proven its contradictory.


Response: --- God 'created' Adam so Adam wasn't born, but he came from God, so he can be CALLED the son of God.
He came into being through God's creating him, so he was the person of God's creation.

--- Quote: and if you try to prove this that being the creator God is the father of Adam then next step is try to disprove that why you as a ""placid" should not be called the son of God since God is the creator of all.So this is my point precisely.


Response: --- After Adam and Eve (who were created by God), were disobedient to God and were put out of the Garden, they began to have children by natural childbirth, which is how we all came into the world, so in that sense we are 'children of God.'
--- However, in the New Testament, where the new relationship was introduced where Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, and God was CALLED His Heavenly Father, it makes a distinction between those who come to believe in God and Jesus, who, as believers, also can CALL God their Heavenly Father, --- as though they are 'adopted' into the family of God.

As you read through the NT you will find places where it CALLS the believers, 'Children of God,' or 'Children of Light' and it CALLS unbelievers, 'children of the devil, or 'children of this world,' or 'children of darkness.'  

Quote: --- 2- One more thing, so under this understanding, Eve is also the daughter of God. so God has two sons and one daughter!!!


Response: --- Adam and Eve were 'created' and Jesus came through natural childbirth through the Virgin Mary.
This is why Jesus is CALLED the 'only begotten' or 'the Unique Son of God.'
--- 'Only begotten' means, the only 'Son of the Father,'  and 'the Unique Son of God,' means, 'One of a kind.'

But as it says in Surah 3:59, in the case of both Adam and Jesus, 'God said, "Be!" and he was.'
--- Because God said it, I believe it. --- When you know God as your Heavenly Father, you have no reason to prove everything.

Quote: regarding CALLED or what. i will not go in to detail. if you dont believe that Jesus is not the son of God, then you should say clearly that people calling him are "wrong" in their judgement. and angel did not meant to say that he is actually the son of God


Response: --- If you notice the Scripture in Luke 1:35, the same angel Gabriel that revealed God's messages to Muhammad said:
--- "That Holy One who is to be born --- WILL BE CALLED --- the Son of God."
In saying Jesus WILL BE CALLED the Son of God, --- that is what He is called, and that is what Jesus is CALLED today, and it is well enough explained that God didn't come down and have a relationship with Mary, but rather, God's Holy Spirit planted the 'new life' in her womb.

I realize it is out of the ordinary but because He was born of Mary, He had a human Body, but He had a Divine Spirit from God, so that is what made Jesus Unique, 'One of a Kind.' --- Never before,- never after.

As you have more questions I will attempt to answer them.


Placid

[LoveforTruth]

Hi Placid,

So what do you say about this definition of Trinity :


“The union of three divine persons (or hypostases), the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one divinity, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three Persons (or hypostases as to individuality).”

[placid]

Hi LoveforTruth,

Quote: So what do you say about this definition of Trinity :


I have written extensively on the this subject on "How Can" --- adressed to Jaysro.



:

[soloman]

Christianlady, on 07 April 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

1 Chronicles 17 -  http://www.mechon-mamre.org/   - I boldened some.


" יא  וְהָיָה, כִּי-מָלְאוּ יָמֶיךָ לָלֶכֶת עִם-אֲבֹתֶיךָ, וַהֲקִימוֹתִי אֶת-זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ, אֲשֶׁר יִהְיֶה מִבָּנֶיךָ; וַהֲכִינוֹתִי, אֶת-מַלְכוּתוֹ. 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days are fulfilled that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will set up thy seed after thee, who shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.   יב  הוּא יִבְנֶה-לִּי, בָּיִת; וְכֹנַנְתִּי אֶת-כִּסְאוֹ, עַד-עוֹלָם. 12 He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever.   יג  אֲנִי אֶהְיֶה-לּוֹ לְאָב, וְהוּא יִהְיֶה-לִּי לְבֵן; וְחַסְדִּי, לֹא-אָסִיר מֵעִמּוֹ, כַּאֲשֶׁר הֲסִירוֹתִי, מֵאֲשֶׁר הָיָה לְפָנֶיךָ. 13 I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee;   יד  וְהַעֲמַדְתִּיהוּ בְּבֵיתִי וּבְמַלְכוּתִי, עַד-הָעוֹלָם; וְכִסְאוֹ, יִהְיֶה נָכוֹן עַד-עוֹלָם. 14 but I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom for ever; and his throne shall be established for ever.'   טו  כְּכֹל הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה, וּכְכֹל הֶחָזוֹן הַזֶּה--כֵּן דִּבֶּר נָתָן, אֶל-דָּוִיד.  {פ}
15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. {P}

Psalm 2 - http://www.mechon-mamre.org/  - I boldened some.

"   ד  יוֹשֵׁב בַּשָּׁמַיִם יִשְׂחָק: אֲדֹנָי, יִלְעַג-לָמוֹ. 4 He that sitteth in heaven laugheth, the Lord hath them in derision.   ה  אָז יְדַבֵּר אֵלֵימוֹ בְאַפּוֹ; וּבַחֲרוֹנוֹ יְבַהֲלֵמוֹ. 5 Then will He speak unto them in His wrath, and affright them in His sore displeasure:   ו  וַאֲנִי, נָסַכְתִּי מַלְכִּי: עַל-צִיּוֹן, הַר-קָדְשִׁי. 6 'Truly it is I that have established My king upon Zion, My holy mountain.'   ז  אֲסַפְּרָה, אֶל-חֹק: יְהוָה, אָמַר אֵלַי בְּנִי אַתָּה--אֲנִי, הַיּוֹם יְלִדְתִּיךָ. 7 I will tell of the decree: the LORD said unto me: 'Thou art My son, this day have I begotten thee.   ח  שְׁאַל מִמֶּנִּי--וְאֶתְּנָה גוֹיִם, נַחֲלָתֶךָ; וַאֲחֻזָּתְךָ, אַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession.

Psalm 89 - http://www.mechon-mamre.org/  - I boldened some.

"   יט  כִּי לַיהוָה, מָגִנֵּנוּ; וְלִקְדוֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵל מַלְכֵּנוּ. 19 For of the LORD is our shield; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.   כ  אָז דִּבַּרְתָּ בְחָזוֹן, לַחֲסִידֶיךָ-- וַתֹּאמֶר, שִׁוִּיתִי עֵזֶר עַל-גִּבּוֹר;
הֲרִימוֹתִי בָחוּר מֵעָם. 20 Then Thou spokest in vision to Thy godly ones, and saidst: 'I have laid help upon one that is mighty; {N}
I have exalted one chosen out of the people.   כא  מָצָאתִי, דָּוִד עַבְדִּי; בְּשֶׁמֶן קָדְשִׁי מְשַׁחְתִּיו. 21 I have found David My servant; with My holy oil have I anointed him;   כב  אֲשֶׁר יָדִי, תִּכּוֹן עִמּוֹ; אַף-זְרוֹעִי תְאַמְּצֶנּוּ. 22 With whom My hand shall be established; Mine arm also shall strengthen him.   כג  לֹא-יַשִּׁיא אוֹיֵב בּוֹ; וּבֶן-עַוְלָה, לֹא יְעַנֶּנּוּ. 23 The enemy shall not exact from him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.   כד  וְכַתּוֹתִי מִפָּנָיו צָרָיו; וּמְשַׂנְאָיו אֶגּוֹף. 24 And I will beat to pieces his adversaries before him, and smite them that hate him.   כה  וֶאֱמוּנָתִי וְחַסְדִּי עִמּוֹ; וּבִשְׁמִי, תָּרוּם קַרְנוֹ. 25 But My faithfulness and My mercy shall be with him; and through My name shall his horn be exalted.   כו  וְשַׂמְתִּי בַיָּם יָדוֹ; וּבַנְּהָרוֹת יְמִינוֹ. 26 I will set his hand also on the sea, and his right hand on the rivers.   כז  הוּא יִקְרָאֵנִי, אָבִי אָתָּה; אֵלִי, וְצוּר יְשׁוּעָתִי. 27 He shall call unto Me: Thou art my Father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.   כח  אַף-אָנִי, בְּכוֹר אֶתְּנֵהוּ; עֶלְיוֹן, לְמַלְכֵי-אָרֶץ. 28 I also will appoint him first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth.   כט  לְעוֹלָם, אשמור- (אֶשְׁמָר-) לוֹ חַסְדִּי; וּבְרִיתִי, נֶאֱמֶנֶת לוֹ. 29 For ever will I keep for him My mercy, and My covenant shall stand fast with him.   ל  וְשַׂמְתִּי לָעַד זַרְעוֹ; וְכִסְאוֹ, כִּימֵי שָׁמָיִם. 30 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven."

Hi Christian Lady

The verses you quoting above have nothing to do with the Messiah .These verses refer to the King who is a descendant
of David who God will send in end times.

In Math. 22:41-45 Jesus asks the Pharisees whose son is the Messiah - they said David .Jesus then asked them " The Lord
said to my Lord: " Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet"

After this quote Jesus asks the Pharisees " If  David calls him Lord ,how  can he be his son"

The Pharisees were dumbstruck with Jesus's wisdom and they never dared asking him questions again.

It is clear from Jesus's comment that the Messiah was not the son of David as Pharisees and Rabbi's were teaching
their people and how the Gospel writers to present day Christians teach there people.

So I ask you as Jesus asked the Pharisees, whose son was the Messiah?

I asked your fellow Christian brother Mr Placid ,but his answer could not explain why Jesus dismissed the Messiah
as the son of David.

Regards

Soloman

[Christianlady]

LoveforTruth, on 04 May 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Hello,


please ChristianLady and Placid,

could you give us the definition of "Son of God" concerning Jesus 'alayhi Salam. How did God act to create him ? And in what is God a different Father to him than for us ?

Hello LoveforTruth,

Jesus being the "Son of God" is defined in the context of the Messianic promises and prophesies found in 2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, and Psalm 89. As you read the following, please keep in mind that God, who is the Creator of life on earth, who spoke life into being, also has the power to create for Himself a "Son", and call him His "son"

2 Samuel 7 - http://www.jewishvir...e/Samuela7.html
(I boldened some.)

"
4 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of HaShem came unto Nathan, saying:
5 'Go and tell My servant David: Thus saith HaShem: Shalt thou build Me a house for Me to dwell in?
6 for I have not dwelt in a house since the day that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all places wherein I have walked among all the children of Israel, spoke I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed My people Israel, saying: Why have ye not built Me a house of cedar?
8 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto My servant David: Thus saith HaShem of hosts: I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be prince over My people, over Israel.
9 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou didst go, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee; and I will make thee a great name, like unto the name of the great ones that are in the earth.
10 And I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in their own place, and be disquieted no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as at the first,
11 even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will cause thee to rest from all thine enemies. Moreover HaShem telleth thee that HaShem will make thee a house.
12 When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy body, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men;
15 but My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee; thy throne shall be established for ever.'
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David."

In 2 Samuel 7, we see in verse 14 that God says that he will "be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son..." In this way, the Messiah is defined as the Son of God.

1 Chronicles - http://www.jewishvir...e/1Chron17.html
(I boldened some.)

"3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of G-d came to Nathan, saying:
4 'Go and tell David My servant: Thus saith HaShem: Thou shalt not build Me a house to dwell in;
5 for I have not dwelt in a house since the day that I brought up Israel, unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another.
6 In all places wherein I have walked among all Israel, spoke I a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed My people, saying: Why have ye not built Me a house of cedar?
7 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto My servant David: Thus saith HaShem of hosts: I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be prince over My people Israel;
8 and I have been with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee; and I will make thee a name, like unto the name of the great ones that are in the earth.
9 And I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in their own place, and be disquieted no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the first,
10 even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will subdue all thine enemies. Moreover I tell thee that HaShem will build thee a house.
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days are fulfilled that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will set up thy seed after thee, who shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever.
13 I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee;
14 but I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom for ever; and his throne shall be established for ever.'
15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
16 Then David the king went in, and sat before HaShem; and he said: 'Who am I, O HaShem G-d, and what is my house, that Thou hast brought me thus far?
17 And this was a small thing in Thine eyes, O G-d; but Thou hast spoken of Thy servant's house for a great while to come, and hast regarded me after the manner of a man of high degree, O HaShem G-d.
18 What can David say yet more unto Thee concerning the honour which is done to Thy servant? for Thou knowest Thy servant.
19 O HaShem, for Thy servant's sake, and according to Thine own heart, hast Thou wrought all this greatness, to make known all these great things.
20 O HaShem, there is none like Thee, neither is there any G-d beside Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
21 And who is like Thy people Israel, a nation one in the earth, whom G-d went to redeem unto Himself for a people, to make Thee a name by great and tremendous things, in driving out nations from before Thy people, whom Thou didst redeem out of Egypt.
22 For Thy people Israel didst Thou make Thine own people for ever; and Thou, HaShem, becamest their G-d.
23 And now, O HaShem, let the word that Thou hast spoken concerning Thy servant, and concerning his house, be established for ever, and do as Thou hast spoken.
24 Yea, let it be established, and let Thy name be magnified for ever, that it may be said: HaShem of hosts is the G-d of Israel, even a G-d to Israel; and the house of David Thy servant shall be established before Thee."

According to 1 Chronicles 17:13, the Messiah is defined to be the Son of God in the folowing "I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee;"

In Psalm 2, God makes it clear that He calls His anointed one (the Messiah), His son.

Psalm 2 - http://www.jewishvir...le/Psalms2.html
(I boldened some.)

"2 The kings of the earth stand up, and the rulers take counsel together, against HaShem, and against His anointed:
3 'Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.'
4 He that sitteth in heaven laugheth, the L-rd hath them in derision.
5 Then will He speak unto them in His wrath, and affright them in His sore displeasure:
6 'Truly it is I that have established My king upon Zion, My holy mountain.'
7 I will tell of the decree: HaShem said unto me: 'Thou art My son, this day have I begotten thee.
<a name="8"> 8 Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession."

In Psalm 2:7 specifically, God confirms that the king on Zion (the Messiah, the Anointed One) is His son.

In Psalm 89, the prophesy specifically confirms that the Messiah, the descendant of King David who will be on King David's throne forever, will call God "Father"

Psalm 89 - http://www.jewishvir...e/Psalms89.html
(I boldened some.)

"21 I have found David My servant; with My holy oil have I anointed him;
22 With whom My hand shall be established; Mine arm also shall strengthen him.
23 The enemy shall not exact from him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
24 And I will beat to pieces his adversaries before him, and smite them that hate him.
25 But My faithfulness and My mercy shall be with him; and through My name shall his horn be exalted.
26 I will set his hand also on the sea, and his right hand on the rivers.
27 He shall call unto Me: Thou art my Father, my G-d, and the rock of my salvation.
28 I also will appoint him first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth.
29 For ever will I keep for him My mercy, and My covenant shall stand fast with him."

So, the Messiah (who Christians believe is Jesus the son of Mary) is the son of God defined by the promises and prophesies concerning the descendant of King David on the throne forever, who God calls "son" and who calls God "Father."

Peace and God bless you