230 replies to this topic

[Marbles]

ShiaBen, on 11 April 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

I need to state the obvious, because people like you are interested in opening threads like this to provoke users of ShiaChat to bash Hindus and the nation of India, all day long. I don't stand for this. This is not in the best interest of Shiites.

I've openly criticized fanatical Hindus just like I've criticized fanatical Taliban and Al-Qaida type terrorists in Pakistan that are killing Shiites like cockroaches.

Now please, quite with this "India fan boy" garbage.

Kashmir is Indian in origin, and will ALWAYS remain Indian.

Tomorrow I'm sure if the UN designated Afghanistan and Eastern Iran as part of Pakistan, idiots like you and Marbles, would be quick to accept such resolutions because of pro-Western sentiments.

Yet another demonstration of the same.

Just read what you wrote. The emboldened parts cannot come from a sane individual if he has gone through the pages of this thread and actually read what posters have wrote.

It's like someone looking out of the window and seeing the cows fly past.

Edited by Marbles, 11 April 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[ShiaBen]

History

The metrical chronicle of the kings of Kashmir, called Rajatarangini, was pronounced by Professor H. H. Wilson to be the only Sanskrit composition yet discovered to which the title of history can with any propriety be applied. It first became known to the Mahommedans when, on Akbar's invasion of Kashmir in 1588, a copy was presented to the emperor. A translation into Persian was made by his order, and a summary of its contents, from this Persian translation, is given by Abu'l Fazl in theA'in-i-Akbari. The Rajatarangini, the first of a series of four Sanskrit histories, was written about the middle of the 12th century by P. Kalhana. His work, in six books, makes use of earlier writings now lost. Commencing with traditional history of very early times, it comes down to the reign of Sangrama Deva, 1006; the second work, by Jonaraja, takes up the history in continuation of Kalhana's, and, entering the Mahommedan period, gives an account of the reigns down to that of Zain-ul-ab-ad-din, 1412. P. Srivara carried on the record to the accession of Fah Shah, 1486. And the fourth work, called Rajavalipataka, by Prajnia Bhatta, completes the history to the time of the incorporation of Kashmir in the dominions of the Mogul emperor Akbar, 1588.
In the Rajatarangini it is stated that the valley of Kashmir was formerly a lake, and that it was drained by the great rishi or sage, Kasyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma, by cutting the gap in the hills at Baramulla (Varaha-mula). When Kashmir had been drained, he brought in the Brahmans to occupy it. This is still the local tradition, and in the existing physical condition of the country we may see some ground for the story which has taken this form. The name of Kasyapa is by history and tradition connected with the draining of the lake, and the chief town or collection of dwellings in the valley was called Kasyapa-pur - a name which has been plausibly identified with the Kaorairvpos of Hecataeus (Steph. Byz., s.v.) and Kaa7rarvpos of Herodotus (iii. 102, iv. 44). Kashmir is the country meant also by Ptolemy's Kaa1nJpca. The ancient name Kasyapa-pur was applied to the kingdom of Kashmir when it comprehended great part of the Punjab and extended beyond the Indus. In the 7th century Kashmir is said by the Chinese traveller Hsuan Tsang to have included Kabul and the Punjab, and the hill region of Gandhara, the country of the Gandarae of classical geography.
At an early date the Sanskrit name of the country became Kasmir. The earliest inhabitants, according to the Rajatarangini, were the people called Naga, a word which signifies "snake." The history shows the prevalence in early times of tree and serpent worship, of which some sculptured stones found in Kashmir still retain the memorials. The town of Islamabad is called also by its ancient name Anant-nag ("eternal snake"). The source of the Jhelum is at Vir-nag (the powerful snake), &c. The other races mentioned as inhabiting this country and the neighbouring hills are Gandhari, Khasa and Daradae. The Khasa people are supposed to have given the name Kasmir. In the Mahabharata the Kasmira and Daradae are named together among the Kshattriya races of northern India. The question whether, in theimmigration of the Aryans into India, Kashmir was taken on the way, or entered afterwards by that people after they had reached the Punjab from the north-west, appears to require an answer ire favour of the latter view (see vol. ii. of Dr J. Muir's Sanskrit Texts). The Aryan races of Kashmir and surrounding hills, which have at the present time separate geographical distribution, are given by Mr Drew as Kashmiri (mostly Mahommedan), in the Kashmir basin and a few scattered places outside; Dard (mostly Mahommedan) in Gilgit and hills north of Kashmir; Dogra (Hindu) in Jamma; Dogra (Mahommedan, called Chibali) in Punch and hill country west of Kashmir; Pahari or mountaineers (Hindu) in Kishtwar, east of Kashmir, and hills about the valley of the Chenab.
In the time of Asoka, about 245 B.C., one of the Indian Buddhist missions was sent to Kashmir and Gandhara. After his death Brahmanism revived. Then in the time of the three Kushan princes, Huvishka, Jushka and Kanishka, who ruled over Kashmir about the beginning of the Christian era, Buddhism was to a great extent restored, though for several centuries the two religions existed together in Kashmir, Hinduism predominating. Yet Kashmir, when Buddhism was gradually losing its hold, continued to send Buddhist teachers to other lands. In this Hindu-Buddhist period, and chiefly between the 5th and 10th centuries of the Christian era, were erected the Hindu temples in Kashmir. In the 6th and 7th centuries Kashmir was visited by some of the Chinese Buddhist pilgrims to India. The country is called Shie-mi in the narrative of To Yeng and Sung Yun (578). One of the Chinese travellers of the next century was for a time an elephant-tamer to the king of Kashmir. Hsuan Tsang spent two years (631-633) in Kashmir (Kia-chi-mi-lo). He entered by Baramula and left by the Pir Panjal pass. He describes the hill-girt valley, and the abundance of flowers and fruits, and he mentions the tradition about the lake. He found in Kashmir many Buddhists as well as Hindus. In the following century the kings of Kashmir appear to have paid homage and tribute to China, though this is not alluded to in the Kashmir chronicle. Hindu kings continued to reign till about 1294, when Udiana Deva was put to death by his Mahommedan vizier, Amir Shah, who ascended the throne under the name of Shams-ud-din.
Of the Mahommedan rulers mentioned in the Sanskrit chronicles, one, who reigned about the close of the 14th century, has made his name prominent by his active opposition to the Hindu religion, and his destruction of temples. This was Sikandar, known as But-shikan, or the "idol-breaker." It was in his time that India was invaded by Timur, to whom Sikandar made submission and paid tribute. The country fell into the hands of the Moguls in 1588. In the time of Alamgir it passed to Ahmad ShahDurani, on his third invasion of India (1756); and from that time it remained in the hands of Afghans till it was wrested from them by Ranjit Singh, the Sikh monarch of the Punjab, in 1819. Eight Hindu and Sikh governors under Ranjit Singh and his successors were followed by two Mahommedans similarly appointed, the second of whom, Shekh Imam-ud-din, was in charge when the battles of the first Sikh war 1846 brought about new relations between the British Government and the Sikhs.
Gulab Singh, a Dogra Rajput, had from a humble position been raised to high office by Ranjit Singh, who conferred on him the small principality of Jammu. On the final defeat of the Sikhs at Sobraon (February 1846), Gulab Singh was called to take a leading part in arranging conditions of peace. The treaty of Lahore (March 9, 1846) sets forth that, the British Government having demanded, in addition to a certain assignment of territory, a payment of a crore and a half of rupees (12 millionssterling), and the Sikh government being unable to pay the whole, the maharaja (Dhulip Singh) cedes, as equivalent for one crore, the hill country belonging to the Punjab between the Beas and the Indus, including Kashmir and Hazara. The governorgeneral, Sir Henry Hardinge, considered it expedient to make over Kashmir to the Jammu chief, securing his friendship while the British government was administering the Punjab on behalf of the young maharaja. Gulab Singh was well prepared to make up the payment in default of which Kashmir was ceded to the British; and so, in consideration of his services in restoring peace, his independent sovereigntyof the country made over to him was recognized, and he was admitted to a separate treaty. Gulab Singh had already, after several extensions of territory east and west of Jammu, conquered Ladakh (a Buddhist country, and till then subject to Lhasa), and had then annexed Skardo, which was under independent Mahommedan rulers. He had thus by degrees half encircled Kashmir, and by this last addition his possessions attained nearly their present form and extent. Gulab Singh died in 1857, and was succeeded by his son, Ranbir Singh, who died in 1885. The next ruler, Maharaja Partab Singh, G.C.S.I. (b. 1850), immediately on his accession inaugurated the settlement reforms already described. His rule was remarkable for the reassertion of the Kashmir sovereignty over Gilgit (q.v.). Kashmir imperial service troops participated in the Black Mountain expedition of 1891, the Hunza Nagar operations of 1891, and the Tirah campaign of 1897-1898. The total revenue of the state is about f666,000.
See Drew, Jammu and Kashmir (1875); M. A. Stein, Kalhana's Rajatarangini (1900); W.R. Lawrence, The Valley of Kashmir (1895) Colonel A. Durand, The Making of a Frontier (1899); R. Lydekker, "The Geology of the Kashmir and Chamba Territories," Records of the Geological Survey of India, vol. xxii. (1883); J. Duke, Kashmir Handbook (1903). (T. H. H.*)


This is for neutrals who want to read about the origins of Kashmir, the name and its inhabitants.

I'm done with these altercations as people like Marbles and company are blind with hatred toward India.

http://www.1911encyc...dia.org/Kashmir

[md. ammar ali]

Propaganda_of_the_Deed, on 11 April 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

You must be incredibly naive to think that Pakistan will simply "mind its own business" when it lives next door to a militarily and physically larger country next door, which it has had 3 wars together since independence, and one that is also nuclear armed too.

pakistan never wants peace -

it occupied balochistan

it occupied kashmir - POK

it wanted to occupy lakshwadeep islands also

it started waging wars against india

murdered and raped tens of thousands of bangladeshis

killed its own country's shias and still continuing

wanted to destroy india by sponsering terrorism in its soil like - LET,taliban,JEM,.........

what about the mumbai 26/11 blasts ?

ajmal kasab isnt a pakistani??



its all about the punjabi - salafi - army - isi that is the root cause for all these things

[Marbles]

^

Kingdom of Kabul (much of modern-day Afghanistan) and Kingdom of Zabul (including Iranian Sistan) were once completely Hindu. They should then go back to the Hindus and All Afghan people should "return" to Iran and Central Asia. How about that for a modest proposal?

So when is Iran handing Sistan back to the Hindus?

I see Shiben go on a frantic google search

Edit: Oh and by that very logic, Israel has full claims over their and Palestinian territory and Palestinians should go back to Arabian Peninsula whose religion they follow and whose language you speak.

You lot are full of contradictions and what's tragic that you don't even realise it.

Edited by Marbles, 11 April 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

ShiaBen, on 11 April 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

I need to state the obvious, because people like you are interested in opening threads like this to provoke users of ShiaChat to bash Hindus and the nation of India, all day long. I don't stand for this. This is not in the best interest of Shiites.

I didn't provoke anyone to "bash Hindus" and the nation of India, I merely posted an event that was in the news, as I always do. In fact this is the very first article I have posted regarding anything remotely related to Kashmir- which wasn't the main topic of the news story.

ShiaBen, on 11 April 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Kashmir is Indian in origin, and will ALWAYS remain Indian.

Yawn. As stated, so is Pakistan and Bangladesh, yet does that mean they somehow will reunite with India because some Iranian-American who has nothing better to do than vouch for India because it is against Pakistan says so?

Making grand sweeping statements that Kashmir will ALWAYS remain part of India is completely silly, seeing as Pakistan and China already share Kashmiri territory. You have already failed.

ShiaBen, on 11 April 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Tomorrow I'm sure if the UN designated Afghanistan and Eastern Iran as part of Pakistan, idiots like you and Marbles, would be quick to accept such resolutions because of pro-Western sentiments.

I have never called you names before Ben, yet I can always rely on you to resort to childish retorts, needless to say, I do not need to go down to this level, as your posts are evidence enough for all to see.

Seeing as you literally know nothing about me in real life, I can safely dimiss this as pure and utter tripe, as I'm not the nationalist you are tying to portray me as, nor am I neccessarily pro-West either. So you fail yet again I am afraid. No, I wouldn't accept Afghanistan and Iran as extended territories of Pakistan. How absurd.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed, 11 April 2012 - 01:15 PM.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

I wonder why this ShiaBen character falls silent on the oppression of Muslims in Kashmir at the hands of the Indian military? I mean this was after all one of the main points brought up.

[Marbles]

Propaganda_of_the_Deed, on 11 April 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

I wonder why this ShiaBen character falls silent on the oppression of Muslims in Kashmir at the hands of the Indian military? I mean this was after all one of the main points brought up.

He didn't even know about it until someone mentioned that in this very thread.

Edited by Marbles, 11 April 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[md. ammar ali]

Marbles, on 11 April 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

How far and how much can you try to reason with a 7th-grader, perhaps even lower than a 7th grader.



This would be interpreted as personal attack,

ofcourse

why people become soo emotional and lose their cool

why personal attacks and critisizing others?

you may be very intellegent and have a lot of knowledge - but why look down on others


i thought we could discuss and debate in a faar better manner showing respect to each other

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

Marbles, on 11 April 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

He didn't even know about it until someone mentioned that in this very thread.

Just as he didn't know that China occupy the Aksai Chin of Kashmir.  

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed, 11 April 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[ShiaBen]

Marbles, on 11 April 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

He didn't even know about it until someone mentioned that in this very thread.

Actually I know whats going on in Kashmir. You're ignorant to assume that I didn't.

But what I don't understand is why Pakistan has to poke its tail into everyone's affairs. Be it India, Iran, Afghanistan, or Shiites.

The very fact that I proved to you that Kashmir is Indian of origin, shows that you're blind. You ignored my posts and are acting quite emotional, not rational at all.

[md. ammar ali]

Marbles, on 11 April 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

^

Kingdom of Kabul (much of modern-day Afghanistan) and Kingdom of Zabul (including Iranian Sistan) were once completely Hindu. They should then go back to the Hindus and All Afghan people should "return" to Iran and Central Asia. How about that for a modest proposal?

So when is Iran handing Sistan back to the Hindus?

I see Shiben go on a frantic google search

Edit: Oh and by that very logic, Israel has full claims over their and Palestinian territory and Palestinians should go back to Arabian Peninsula whose religion they follow and whose language you speak.

You lot are full of contradictions and what's tragic that you don't even realise it.

i didnt get you

what did you mean by that??

i never said that

why are you guys putting words in my mouth??

[ShiaBen]

Propaganda_of_the_Deed, on 11 April 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Just as he didn't know that China occupy the Aksai Chin of Kashmir.  

An example of your childish assumption.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

For all the time-wasted talk of "KASHMIR WILL ALWAYS BE PART OF INDIA" nonsense. I'd like to see those same loudmouthers say that to the Chinese.

[md. ammar ali]

Marbles, on 11 April 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

^

Kingdom of Kabul (much of modern-day Afghanistan) and Kingdom of Zabul (including Iranian Sistan) were once completely Hindu. They should then go back to the Hindus and All Afghan people should "return" to Iran and Central Asia. How about that for a modest proposal?

So when is Iran handing Sistan back to the Hindus?

I see Shiben go on a frantic google search

Edit: Oh and by that very logic, Israel has full claims over their and Palestinian territory and Palestinians should go back to Arabian Peninsula whose religion they follow and whose language you speak.

You lot are full of contradictions and what's tragic that you don't even realise it.

so you support occupation and oppression and support israel

but claim as a shiatu' ali ?????

[Marbles]

Propaganda_of_the_Deed, on 11 April 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Just as he didn't know that China occupy the Aksai Chin of Kashmir.  

I can excuse him for not knowing the whole thing (so long as he is humble to say that he doesn't know) but I can't excuse him for his utter lack of plain common sense, his baffling arrogance, and almost troll-like blind partisanship as if he is a party to the conflict. But then, kids like him are brought on a diet which shuts them to a worldview in any other shades except black and white.

[ShiaBen]

varun loves ahlulbayt, on 11 April 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

i didnt get you

what did you mean by that??

i never said that

why are you guys putting words in my mouth??

varun loves ahlulbayt, on 11 April 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

i didnt get you

what did you mean by that??

i never said that

why are you guys putting words in my mouth??

Because that's what they do best. They assume things and also put words in other people's mouths.

No point in going back and forth with them anymore. They denied the Indian origins of Kashmir.

All they're going to do is call people 7th graders just because we don't accept their views on the hot topic of Kashmir.

[md. ammar ali]

Propaganda_of_the_Deed, on 11 April 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

I didn't provoke anyone to "bash Hindus" and the nation of India, I merely posted an event that was in the news, as I always do. In fact this is the very first article I have posted regarding anything remotely related to Kashmir- which wasn't the main topic of the news story.

why dont ou think the same with me ??

i too posted OFFTOPIC  and asked a relevant question?????

1 rule for you and other for others???

[Marbles]

varun loves ahlulbayt, on 11 April 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

i didnt get you

what did you mean by that??

i never said that

why are you guys putting words in my mouth??

It was directed to ShiaBen, not you Varun. Your post came in between my upward arrow and Ben's post.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

varun loves ahlulbayt, on 11 April 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

why dont ou think the same with me ??

i too posted OFFTOPIC  and asked a relevant question?????

1 rule for you and other for others???

I've already responded to this. Refer back to previous posts.

[Marbles]

ShiaBen, on 11 April 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

The very fact that I proved to you that Kashmir is Indian of origin, shows that you're blind. You ignored my posts and are acting quite emotional, not rational at all.

What does it even mean??

I mean, lol, do you even understand what you are saying?

Holy duck. This is unbelievable. Who is denying Kashmir is Indian in origin, that is, historically Indian? Just like the areas which make up today's Pakistan and Bangladesh were Indian (part of Hind) before they separated.

My friend, please believe me, reading your posts, when I tell you that you are not up to a debate of this level, I am being very sincere and truthful.

Edited by Marbles, 11 April 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[md. ammar ali]

marbles and propoganda -

tell me clearly one thing what you support - occupation and oppression????????

pakistan and china occupied a part of kashmir and claims the rest - you say it is right

zionists occupied palestine and claim the rest of the sham - you say it is wrong


why double standards????


when you post something - you claim it isnt trolling
but when i do - it is trolling????



if you are really against oppression - what is your stand on balochistan??????????

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

Varun, you only now bring up China after I mentioned it - did it not matter before? Secondly why wont you acknowledge what the Indian military are doing to Muslims in Kashmir? I acknowledged what the Pakistani military did in Bangladesh and I didn't deny how the Balochis are treated, yet you don't have the spine or the credibility, to stand up against oppression whoever commits it, and denounce what the military are doing to the separatist ambitions of the Kashmiris in India.

This is what makes your claims as being against oppression, a mere joke.

Still waiting for ShiaBen to look up at the big and bright colourful map of Kashmir and explain to me how Kashmir will "always" be part of India btw, despite being territorially administered by three separate states.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed, 11 April 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[md. ammar ali]

Marbles, on 11 April 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

What does it even mean??

I mean, lol, do you even understand what you are saying?

Holy duck. This is unbelievable. Who is denying Kashmir is Indian in origin, that is, historically Indian? Just like the areas which make up today's Pakistan and Bangladesh were Indian (part of Hind) before they separated.

My friend, please believe me, reading your posts, when I tell you that you are not up to a debate of this level, I am being very sincere and truthful.

i doubt you are indirectly supporting israel by that statement??

coz you say "pakistan and china occupied kashmir " belongs to those countries because they are presently in their occupation

similarly isreal  - it occupied palestine

they will say - "hey you holy 7th standard ducks - it was palestine then but since we occupied it is ours now "

P.S. - i aint claiming pakistan and bangla or srilanka or afghan as indian

all i say is kashmir is was and will be india

i am against oppression and occupation -

hence i support india for kashmir and dont support pakistan and china

similarly i support iran hezbulla palestine and hate isreal america = occupiers and oppressors

[Marbles]

I really wish we had some intelligent and knowledgeable people to take up Indian defence in here. Then it would be a fruitful and interesting debate.

I am even having to spell out the most basic and elementary facts which in normal case would form the common ground and shared plane between the debaters before embarking upon a serious discussion on Subcontinental related issues.

Seeing the level of posts, which is hopelessly pathetic to say the least, it is like we are insulting our own intelligence by engaging continuously with the likes of you-know-who.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

varun loves ahlulbayt, on 11 April 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

hence i support india for kashmir and dont support pakistan and china

Why no support for the Indian Muslim Kashmiris against brutal oppression by the Indian military? Occupation and Opression do not neccessarily equate to the same thing.

If you wont see Kashmir as being "occupied" by India - that is completely fine and understandable, and no one is asking you to - as it is a complicated political matter that wont be solved over night - HOWEVER, we will ask you to recognise the oppression faced by the Indian Muslim Kashmiris by your military. As oppression is oppression no matter who the oppressor. This is the least you can do, if you are true to your ideals as a Shi'ite.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed, 11 April 2012 - 01:55 PM.