24 replies to this topic

[placid]

Because this question is off topic from ‘The Lord’s Prayer,’ and could lead to further discussion, I felt it would be best to start it as a new topic.
--- (I submit this in simplicity because these verses have been there to read all the time.)

Hi Ateef,
Quote from Post 57 of The Lord’s Prayer:
This is the Truth Reavealed to Us, And we do not believe in the CRUCIFICATION of the Mesiah.
As you believe in CRUCIFICATION...
WHATS WRITTEN IN YOUR SCRIPTURES ABOUT CRUCIFICATION????

Response: --- Concerning the crucifixion, I will start with an impartial witness, who was a Pharisee, and who acknowledged that it was his leaders that condemned Jesus to the cross.

Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in AD 37 so he lived in the time of the Apostles, and may have been 50 years old by the time John wrote his Gospel, so would have had first-hand knowledge of the current events, including the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

From: The Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII, Chapter III, Verse III:
Quote: Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, -- a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians so named from him, are not extinct at this day. --- End of quote.


Now I will list some verses first from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke:

MATTHEW 26:
1. Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples,
2.“You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.”
3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
4 and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him.
5 But they said, “Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.”

--- (After His arrest and first trial Jesus was taken to Pilate.)
27:22 Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”
23 Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”
--- (This is where the Jews took responsibility for Jesus’ death on the cross.)

27:35 Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet:
“They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.”
36 Sitting down, they kept watch over Him there.
37 And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him:
THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
38 Then two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and another on the left.

--- (At the tomb after Jesus had risen from the dead.)
28:5. The angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know you seek Jesus who was crucified.
6. He is not here for He is risen,as He said. Come see the place where the Lord lay,"


MARK 15:15 So Pilate, wanting to gratify the crowd, released Barabbas to them; and he delivered Jesus, after he had scourged Him, to be crucified.
24 And when they crucified Him, they divided His garments, casting lots for them to determine what every man should take.
25 Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.
26 And the inscription of His accusation was written above:
THE KING OF THE JEWS.

--- (After He had risen from the dead the women went to the tomb to anoint the body, and an angel spoke to them.)
16:6 But he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! --- He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.


--- (Again the trial before Pilate in Luke’s Gospel.)
LUKE 23:22 Then he said to them the third time, “Why, what evil has He done? I have found no reason for death in Him. I will therefore chastise Him and let Him go.”
23 But they were insistent, demanding with loud voices that He be crucified. And the voices of these men and of the chief priests prevailed.
24 So Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they requested.

23:32 There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left.
34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”

--- (Again at the tomb the angel spoke to them.)
LUKE 24:6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee,
7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’

--- (Jesus appeared to two disciples after He rose from the dead, and walked with them on the road to Emmaus, but they didn’t know Him till He revealed Himself, Luke 24:13-48.)

18 Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?”
19 And He said to them, “What things?”
So they said to Him “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him.
25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?”
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them.
31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him.

More to follow.


Placid

[Ruq]

You reminded me of a video i saw of an ex-Christian convert to Islam. His story is interesting in its self, but this point stuck out for me because i'd never heard it before. He talks of how to be crucified was to be cursed in judaic tradition, stemming from a verse in the old testament. Watch from 0:27:23 to see the point he makes:

[Quisant]

placid, on 26 March 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Because this question is off topic from 'The Lord's Prayer,' and could lead to further discussion, I felt it would be best to start it as a new topic.
--- (I submit this in simplicity because these verses have been there to read all the time.)

Hi Ateef,
Quote from Post 57 of The Lord's Prayer:
This is the Truth Reavealed to Us, And we do not believe in the CRUCIFICATION of the Mesiah.
As you believe in CRUCIFICATION...
WHATS WRITTEN IN YOUR SCRIPTURES ABOUT CRUCIFICATION????

Response: --- Concerning the crucifixion, I will start with an impartial witness, who was a Pharisee, and who acknowledged that it was his leaders that condemned Jesus to the cross.

Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in AD 37 so he lived in the time of the Apostles, and may have been 50 years old by the time John wrote his Gospel, so would have had first-hand knowledge of the current events, including the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

From: The Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII, Chapter III, Verse III:
Quote: Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, -- a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians so named from him, are not extinct at this day. --- End of quote.


Now I will list some verses first from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke:

MATTHEW 26:
1. Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples,
2."You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified."
3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
4 and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him.
5 But they said, "Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people."

--- (After His arrest and first trial Jesus was taken to Pilate.)
27:22 Pilate said to them, "What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?"
They all said to him, "Let Him be crucified!"
23 Then the governor said, "Why, what evil has He done?"
But they cried out all the more, saying, "Let Him be crucified!"
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it."
25 And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children."
--- (This is where the Jews took responsibility for Jesus' death on the cross.)

27:35 Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet:
"They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots."
36 Sitting down, they kept watch over Him there.
37 And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him:
THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
38 Then two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and another on the left.

--- (At the tomb after Jesus had risen from the dead.)
28:5. The angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know you seek Jesus who was crucified.
6. He is not here for He is risen,as He said. Come see the place where the Lord lay,"


MARK 15:15 So Pilate, wanting to gratify the crowd, released Barabbas to them; and he delivered Jesus, after he had scourged Him, to be crucified.
24 And when they crucified Him, they divided His garments, casting lots for them to determine what every man should take.
25 Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.
26 And the inscription of His accusation was written above:
THE KING OF THE JEWS.

--- (After He had risen from the dead the women went to the tomb to anoint the body, and an angel spoke to them.)
16:6 But he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! --- He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.


--- (Again the trial before Pilate in Luke's Gospel.)
LUKE 23:22 Then he said to them the third time, "Why, what evil has He done? I have found no reason for death in Him. I will therefore chastise Him and let Him go."
23 But they were insistent, demanding with loud voices that He be crucified. And the voices of these men and of the chief priests prevailed.
24 So Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they requested.

23:32 There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left.
34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."

--- (Again at the tomb the angel spoke to them.)
LUKE 24:6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee,
7 saying, 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.'

--- (Jesus appeared to two disciples after He rose from the dead, and walked with them on the road to Emmaus, but they didn't know Him till He revealed Himself, Luke 24:13-48.)

18 Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, "Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?"
19 And He said to them, "What things?"
So they said to Him "The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him.
25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them.
31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him.

More to follow.


Placid

I confess I don't know much about Christianity but a 5 minutes search on the net and:

The general scholarly view is that while the 'Testimonium Flavianum' is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to Christian interpolation,
http://en.wikipedia....sephus_on_Jesus

Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.


The Gospel of Matthew is an expanded version of the Gospel of Mark, Matthew is writing later and copied a lot from Mark. Almost all the story elements, phrases and words used by Mark – about ninety-five per cent of them – are reused in Matthew.

The Gospel According to Mark does not name its author. Most modern scholars believe that the gospel was written in Syria by an unknown Christian around AD 70, using various sources including a passion narrative (probably written), collections of miracles stories (oral or written), apocalyptic traditions (probably written), and disputations and didactic sayings (some possibly written).

wslm.
*

[placid]

Hi Ruqaya,

I watched the long video through and took some notes so I will respond to that later,

--- But I want to continue with the Scriptures that Ateef asked for on the crucifixion.



To continue with verses on the Crucifixion.

--- (The Apostle John knew the High Priest [John 18:15] and was allowed to go in to the trial, so gives more detail in his Gospel. --- I believe he followed the proceedings, even to the cross where he was with Jesus’ mother and other women mentioned in 19:25-27.)

--- (We begin again at the trial before Pilate.)
JOHN 19:15 But they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!”
Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?”
The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar!”
16 Then he delivered Him to them to be crucified. So they took Jesus and led Him away.
17 And He, bearing His cross, went out to a place called the Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha,
18 where they crucified Him, and two others with Him, one on either side, and Jesus in the center.
19 Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:
JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece.
24 They said therefore among themselves, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be,” that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says:
“They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.”

31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
41 Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid.
42 So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews’ Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby.

--- (John 20 records the discovery at the tomb that Jesus had risen.)

--- (After the Day of Pentecost, Peter spoke to the crowds.)
ACTS 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

--- (After a crippled man had been healed at the gate of the Temple, the crowd gathered, and Peter spoke to them again.)
ACTS 3:12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities
--- (Notice in v 13 and 26, Jesus is properly called God’s Servant.)

--- (Peter and John were put in the local jail, and on their release, Peter again spoke to the crowd that gathered.)
ACTS 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:
9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well,
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.

In the OT, people were judged by ‘the mouth of two or three witnesses.’
Jesus said in Matthew 18:16, “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.”

Here we have five witnesses that have written, plus the hundreds that were there when it happened, and believing the truth of the Gospel served to establish and carry on the Christian faith.


Placid

[Son of Placid]

Quisant, on 26 March 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

I confess I don't know much about Christianity but a 5 minutes search on the net and:

The general scholarly view is that while the 'Testimonium Flavianum' is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to Christian interpolation,
http://en.wikipedia....sephus_on_Jesus

Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.


The Gospel of Matthew is an expanded version of the Gospel of Mark, Matthew is writing later and copied a lot from Mark. Almost all the story elements, phrases and words used by Mark – about ninety-five per cent of them – are reused in Matthew.

The Gospel According to Mark does not name its author. Most modern scholars believe that the gospel was written in Syria by an unknown Christian around AD 70, using various sources including a passion narrative (probably written), collections of miracles stories (oral or written), apocalyptic traditions (probably written), and disputations and didactic sayings (some possibly written).

wslm.
*

For a five minute search you did pretty good. That's very close to what I understand is the history as well, then again I could be wrong...
We've been thru this discussion before and lots of books have been brought to the surface because of it.

There was a big thing of the gospel of Barney not mentioning it at all, yet the Epistle of Barnabus mentions the crucifixion in chapter 5.
Gossip of Barney written around 1200 ad, the Epistle, only a couple hundred years. Others in the Nag Hammadi library also mention the crucifixion.
In every case the majority of the books are a copillation of the events of those days including Jesus, birth to death to various degrees. The Bible itself makes no claims to be the direct word of God which is a good reason it doesn't read like the Quran. It doesn't mean it's a book full of false stories tho.

Reminds me of the job I was just working on the last couple weeks.
It's a 1955 locomotive kept as close to original as possible, used for mountain tours for the filthy rich. At some point someone replaced the grab irons with a chrome set instead of the old painted cast irons. Considering the grab irons are cosmetic and have nothing to do with the overall operation to what extent is the originality of the unit corrupted? There are a few other safety mods etc done on it as well. Does that take away from the original enough that the thing is worthless? Most of the "corruptions" I've come up against are as viable as those grab irons so please don't be surprised if I don't take the corruption theories as seriously as some.

As I see it the Quran and the Bible seem to fill in each others blanks as opposed to contradicting each other. It's also possible that added emphasis on the Jews not killing Jesus was because it was the overly-popular all-around belief (including trinity) at the time.  God knows best.

[Quisant]

Son of Placid, on 26 March 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

For a five minute search you did pretty good. That's very close to what I understand is the history as well, then again I could be wrong...
We've been thru this discussion before and lots of books have been brought to the surface because of it.

There was a big thing of the gospel of Barney not mentioning it at all, yet the Epistle of Barnabus mentions the crucifixion in chapter 5.
Gossip of Barney written around 1200 ad, the Epistle, only a couple hundred years. Others in the Nag Hammadi library also mention the crucifixion.
In every case the majority of the books are a copillation of the events of those days including Jesus, birth to death to various degrees. The Bible itself makes no claims to be the direct word of God which is a good reason it doesn't read like the Quran. It doesn't mean it's a book full of false stories tho.

Placid, son of Placid..is there a Holy Spirit of Placid?

The only well documented notion is that, starting sometime during the second century, some Christians believed that Jesus was crucified by Roman authorities.
That is all the evidence for it.

The popularity of the notion does not make the crucifixion historical.

And no, you are right, it does not mean that it's a book full of false stories; but after you encounter several false stories, it is difficult to know where to stop your disbelief.

As I  see it, the Gospels were promotional literature that aimed to sell the message, certainly embellished.
They are known to be historically unreliable for all events and must be corroborated by credible sources of antiquity.

Quote

Most of the "corruptions" I've come up against are as viable as those grab irons so please don't be surprised if I don't take the corruption theories as seriously as some.

Of course you would say that, you are trying to convert people to Christianity.

But these are not just innocent 'lost in translation' corruptions, they are wilful forgeries, lies which the early Roman Church used routinely.

Bart Ehrman writes:
Scholars have long known that a number of the earliest Christian writings are “forgeries”—books written by unknown authors claiming to be someone famous (e.g., one of the apostles).
http://www.bib-arch....bart-ehrman.asp

Even the famous 'Donation of Constantine' is a forgery.
http://en.wikipedia...._of_Constantine

Also have you ever heard of Joseph Wheless?

http://www.thenazare...y_chapter_3.htm
http://www.thenazare...y_chapter_4.htm

I shall leave it now; I did not know it had been discussed before,to you your beliefs to me mine.

wslm.
*

[Son of Placid]

Quisant, on 27 March 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Placid, son of Placid..is there a Holy Spirit of Placid?

The only well documented notion is that, starting sometime during the second century, some Christians believed that Jesus was crucified by Roman authorities.
That is all the evidence for it.

The popularity of the notion does not make the crucifixion historical.

And no, you are right, it does not mean that it's a book full of false stories; but after you encounter several false stories, it is difficult to know where to stop your disbelief.

As I  see it, the Gospels were promotional literature that aimed to sell the message, certainly embellished.
They are known to be historically unreliable for all events and must be corroborated by credible sources of antiquity.



Of course you would say that, you are trying to convert people to Christianity.

But these are not just innocent 'lost in translation' corruptions, they are wilful forgeries, lies which the early Roman Church used routinely.

Bart Ehrman writes:
Scholars have long known that a number of the earliest Christian writings are “forgeries”—books written by unknown authors claiming to be someone famous (e.g., one of the apostles).
http://www.bib-arch....bart-ehrman.asp

Even the famous 'Donation of Constantine' is a forgery.
http://en.wikipedia...._of_Constantine

Also have you ever heard of Joseph Wheless?

http://www.thenazare...y_chapter_3.htm
http://www.thenazare...y_chapter_4.htm

I shall leave it now; I did not know it had been discussed before,to you your beliefs to me mine.

wslm.
*

Lol, everything has been discussed here before. What it comes down to is how many "scholars" you want to listen to.
Wasn't it Bart who left Christianity because he didn't get healed? The donation of Constantine is not overly relevent.

The crucifixion wasn't decided 200 years later, it was documented by letters of Paul that were much earlier and could not be considered forgeries.
As you say, your beliefs...mine.

I don't say any of this because I want to convert you to Christianity, just stating my beliefs according to my studies...so far.
My reason for being here is to compare two religions that claim to have the same God siting no one religion has it all.
Considering I moved away from mainstream Christianity myself I'm not likely to try to convert you to it, so no worries.

Edited by Son of Placid, 27 March 2012 - 08:07 AM.

[Quisant]

Son of Placid, on 27 March 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

The crucifixion wasn't decided 200 years later, it was documented by letters of Paul that were much earlier and could not be considered forgeries.
As you say, your beliefs...mine.

When you are not sure, the least you could do is not spread rumours, I believe that there are no dates for the Composition of the Pauline letters found in the letters themselves

There is no credible evidence anywhere in all antiquity that a writer called Saul/Paul wrote any Epistle before the Jesus story was publicly known and circulated in antiquity.

The genuine Pauline epistles are dated late 2nd Century or 3rd century CE (i.e., 175-225 CE, avg = 200 CE).
http://en.wikipedia....e_New_Testament

wslm.
*

P.S. I am not worried.

Edited by Quisant, 27 March 2012 - 08:54 AM.

[Son of Placid]

Quisant, on 27 March 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

When you are not sure, the least you could do is not spread rumours, I believe that there are no dates for the Composition of the Pauline letters found in the letters themselves

There is no credible evidence anywhere in all antiquity that a writer called Saul/Paul wrote any Epistle before the Jesus story was publicly known and circulated in antiquity.

The genuine Pauline epistles are dated late 2nd Century or 3rd century CE (i.e., 175-225 CE, avg = 200 CE).
http://en.wikipedia....e_New_Testament

wslm.
*

P.S. I am not worried.

I believe you are going by earliest known fragment yet dates determined by scholars is on average 50-60 yrs.for the majority of Paul's letters.
Not exactly rumors. Paul didn't date his letters. Does that mean he didn't write them?

[placid]

Hi Quisant,

I guess you will have noticed that I gave the Scripture verses on crucifixion in answer to the question, “What is written in your Scriptures?” --- By someone else who didn’t believe it.

Quote from Post 3:
I confess I don't know much about Christianity but a 5 minutes search on the net and:

RESPONSE: --- If you try to learn about Christianity from the critics it will lead you farther away from who Jesus Christ was, and is.

Part of your quote on Josephus:
--- It is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate
Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, --- makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

RESPONSE: --- Polycarp, who lived from 69 - 155 was a disciple of the Apostle John, and Irenaeus, who lived from 120+  - to 202 was a disciple or follower of Polycarp. --- They would have little reason to authenticate anything from the historian, Josephus, because there was no question about the authorship or authority of the Scriptures.
--- Besides that, Josephus began his writing in Aramaic.

Quote:
The Gospel of Matthew is an expanded version of the Gospel of Mark, Matthew is writing later and copied a lot from Mark. Almost all the story elements, phrases and words used by Mark – about ninety-five per cent of them – are reused in Matthew.
The Gospel According to Mark does not name its author. Most modern scholars believe that the gospel was written in Syria by an unknown Christian around AD 70, using various sources including a passion narrative (probably written), collections of miracles stories (oral or written), apocalyptic traditions (probably written), and disputations and didactic sayings (some possibly written).

RESPONSE: ---  Matthew 15:14. “They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

--- Now I will give you about a five minute account of what you would find in a Bible Dictionary. I won’t quote all the pages written, --- but I will give a synopsis.

--- It is believed that Matthew, a businessman, was the secretary, or, ‘recorder’ for Jesus and the disciples. --- He would write even as Jesus spoke, --- and because they all traveled together he could check with Jesus later to make sure it was right.

There is evidence that Matthew first wrote, “The Sayings of Jesus,” in Aramaic.
(These ‘Sayings’ were likely the content of ‘the Sermon on the Mount,’ written in Matthew 5, 6, and 7, and would be copied and distributed to the people as ‘the News of the Day.’)
--- And then a Gospel in Aramaic, which would have been copied and distributed to the people. --- Both of these writings would have been kept by Matthew, and likely, the Apostles had copies of them, which would have been used by Mark and Luke when they wrote their Gospel accounts in Greek.

--- When the persecution became heavy on the Apostles in Jerusalem this is recorded in Acts 12:
1. Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.
2. Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword
3. And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread.
4. So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover.
5. Peter was therefore kept in prison, but constant prayer was offered to God for him by the church.
6. And when Herod was about to bring him out, that night Peter was sleeping, bound with two chains between two soldiers; and the guards before the door were keeping the prison.
7. Now behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shone in the prison; and he struck Peter on the side and raised him up, saying, “Arise quickly!” And his chains fell off his hands.
8. Then the angel said to him, “Gird yourself and tie on your sandals”; and so he did. And he said to him, “Put on your garment and follow me.”
9. So he went out and followed him, and did not know that what was done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision.
10. When they were past the first and the second guard posts, they came to the iron gate that leads to the city, which opened to them of its own accord; and they went out and went down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him.
11. And when Peter had come to himself, he said, “Now I know for certain that the Lord has sent His angel, and has delivered me from the hand of Herod and from all the expectation of the Jewish people.”
12. So, when he had considered this, he came to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose surname was Mark, where many were gathered together praying.

--- When Peter was miraculously led out of the prison he came to the house of John Mark, commonly called Mark, who wrote the Gospel. --- This is dated year 44 AD.

Mark travelled with Barnabas and Paul on their first missionary journey, --- but later, he and Peter moved to Rome (in the 50’s) and continued ministry there.
Because of the persecution of Christians in Jerusalem the Apostles went to different areas, and Antioch in Syria became a teaching center for the Gentiles

MARK wrote his Gospel in Rome, no doubt having Matthew’s previous writing, and input from Peter. --- And he wrote it for the Romans so it does not contain much about Jewish law, as Matthew’s Gospel in Greek does.

MATTHEW wrote his Gospel in Antioch and for the Jewish readership. While the distribution may have been a few years after Mark, it is placed first in order because Matthew was the chief writer.

LUKE travelled with Paul on his third missionary journey to plant Churches, and visit Christians. On Their return to Jerusalem Paul was arrested and they would have killed him but the Roman soldiers rescued him and after certain trials, Paul appealed to appear before Caesar.
--- So they sent Paul to Rome, accompanied by Luke, who was recording their journeys and was the author of the Book of Acts.
Most of Paul’s letters of instruction to the Churches were written in the 50’s, and it was about 60 AD when Paul and Luke went to Rome.

LUKE wrote his Gospel in Rome but perhaps did the final format in Greece, because It, and the Book of Acts are addressed to Theophilus. --- Luke was Greek, --- and the only non-Hebrew or non-Jewish writer of the Bible, and his Gospel is written for the Greeks. --- He began his narrative this way:
1. Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,
3. it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus,
4. that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.

JOHN wrote, or finished his general Gospel, perhaps in Ephesus, in the 80’s or about the year 90 AD.
He would have had access to all the others so did not repeat the same Scripture, but added more from the final week of Jesus’ life on earth, and the ‘in depth teaching on the Holy Spirit.’


--- Something to bear in mind is that when you disbelieve the Bible, and especially the Ministry of Jesus, you are disbelieving the Quran because of this in Surah 3:
3. He has revealed unto you (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealer the Torah and the Gospel.

So If Gabriel ‘confirmed’ and approved the former Scriptures, including the crucifixion, then we must believe them too, or we are disbelieving in God and His word, --- are we not?


Placid

[Shia_Debater]

placid, on 28 March 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

--- Something to bear in mind is that when you disbelieve the Bible, and especially the Ministry of Jesus, you are disbelieving the Quran because of this in Surah 3:
3. He has revealed unto you (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealer the Torah and the Gospel.

So If Gabriel ‘confirmed’ and approved the former Scriptures, including the crucifixion, then we must believe them too, or we are disbelieving in God and His word, --- are we not?


Placid

No, by disbelieving the Bible we aren't disbelieving in the word of God. We believe the Injeel is the name of the revelation revealed to Prophet Jesus and that the gospels of the Bible do not represent the Injeel that was revealed to Prophet Jesus

[Quisant]

placid, on 28 March 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Hi Quisant,

Quote from Post 3:
I confess I don't know much about Christianity but a 5 minutes search on the net and:

RESPONSE: --- If you try to learn about Christianity from the critics it will lead you farther away from who Jesus Christ was, and is.

I make it my duty to have a balanced view on most matters lest I am accused of gullibility.

Quote

Part of your quote on Josephus:
--- It is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate
Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, --- makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

RESPONSE: --- Polycarp, who lived from 69 - 155 was a disciple of the Apostle John, and Irenaeus, who lived from 120+  - to 202 was a disciple or follower of Polycarp. --- They would have little reason to authenticate anything from the historian, Josephus, because there was no question about the authorship or authority of the Scriptures.
--- Besides that, Josephus began his writing in Aramaic.

I took exception to your stating that there are independent witnesses to the crucifixion, this is not true. Documents have been forged.

The dismissal of the passage in Josephus regarding Jesus is based on intense scrutiny and reasoning.
Such investigation has been confirmed repeatedly by numerous scholars who were mostly Christian.

The Catholic Encyclopedia itself admits:
Attempts have been made to refute the objections brought against this passage both for internal and external reasons, but the difficulty has not been definitively settled. The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations. (In other words it is a fake)

http://www.newadvent...then/08522a.htm

Thank you for talking to me; I am done with this thread, feel free to have the last word.

wslm.
*

[placid]

Hi Debater,

Quote from Post 11:
No, by disbelieving the Bible we aren't disbelieving in the word of God. We believe the Injeel is the name of the revelation revealed to Prophet Jesus  and that the gospels of the Bible do not represent the Injeel that was revealed to Prophet Jesus.


RESPONSE:
This is quite an old argument that the Injeel was a lost book that was given to Jesus, but in the translations, Injeel and Gospel are used interchangeably, as in 3:48:

Pickthall:  And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,
Yusuf Ali: "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
Shakir: And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel.
Sher Ali: And HE will teach him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel;

So the Injeel or Gospel was given to Jesus by revelation from God. It was not written down, as though God gave Jesus a book to sit down and study. --- It was transmitted Spiritually so that Jesus was given full knowledge and full recall of the Scriptures.

If we check the context of the giving of the Injeel or Gospel we can see the result of the life, action, and teaching of Jesus in Surah 3:

45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
48. "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51. "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
--- (So the disciples of Jesus were the Muslims [surrendered ones] in the NT.)
53. "Our Lord! (God) --- we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); then write us down among those who bear witness."

--- So, of those who obey Jesus, v 50, and become surrendered, v 52, and bear witness of their faith in God and obedience to Jesus, whom God had sent, v 53, --- they are on the ‘Way that is straight,' v 51.

--- And it goes on to say of those who follow the Way that is straight:
55.   Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

--- So the teaching of the Injeel or Gospel would be what led the true believers, who are called Muslims in v 52, --- which led to the promise of salvation, v 55.

In the Gospel of John it says this in 17:
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

Does this not say that Jesus gave them the words which God had given Him, --- so that was the message of the Injeel or Gospel, was it not?


Placid

[Shia_Debater]

We believe that the Gospel that was revealed to Prophet Jesus was taught to his disciples through the revelation he had from Allah (swt) however we believe that over time they have become distorted and corrupted and changed.





Besides, according to christians (If I am not mistaken) the bible claims that Jesus is the son of God. The Qur'an claims that God has no sons. This is enough proof for us to show that the bible is corrupted, for if it wasn't corrupted it wouldn't contradict with the Qur'an.

[Son of Placid]

Shia_Debater, on 29 March 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

We believe that the Gospel that was revealed to Prophet Jesus was taught to his disciples through the revelation he had from Allah (swt) however we believe that over time they have become distorted and corrupted and changed.





Besides, according to christians (If I am not mistaken) the bible claims that Jesus is the son of God. The Qur'an claims that God has no sons. This is enough proof for us to show that the bible is corrupted, for if it wasn't corrupted it wouldn't contradict with the Qur'an.

Sorry but you're mistaken. The Bible does not claim Jesus is God. Your thoughts are correct though, that would be in contradiction to the Quran.
If the Bible was deliberately corrupted you can be sure somewhere in the NT Jesus would be quoted as saying "I am God."

[placid]

Hi Debater,

Quote from Post 14:
We believe that the Gospel that was revealed to Prophet Jesus  was taught to his disciples through the revelation he had from Allah (swt) however we believe that over time they have become distorted and corrupted and changed.

Response: --- Yes it is accurate to say that Jesus taught the disciples what He received by revelation from God.
However, it has been wrongly taught that the Scriptures have been changed because Jesus also spoke from the OT Scriptures in teaching the disciples. --- And the Gospel was revealed to Jesus, Surah 3:48, which He taught to the disciples.

The NT, written in Greek has been translated into many languages with the only differences being the choice of words of the translators from one language to another. St Jerome translated the whole Bible into Latin in 400 AD. --- This Latin Vulgate was used by Christians (as well as the Greek and Aramaic in the days of Muhammad) and was used from then till the 1500’s when it was translated into the Douay Bible in English, of which I have a copy.

About the same time, King James of England gathered 47 Bible scholars and linguists to translate the Bible from the Greek to English, so the King James Version was the forerunner of the various English translations today.
The Douay Bible which travelled through the hundreds of years from 400 to 1500 in Latin, and then translated into English, is verse by verse the same as the King James except for extra books in the Douay, and the choice of words of the translators.

Jesus did not mention changes in the OT, and Gabriel did not mention changes, or ‘corruption’ in the NT when he ‘confirmed the former Scriptures’ in Surah 3:3.

So, it remains for you to determine what time frame you claim there were changes, The Codex Siniaticus from 400 translated into English is the same as the King James of today.
To say there are changes, let alone ‘corruption’ in the NT, you will have to show the time frame, plus the ‘changes,’ --- not just here-say, or the belief of others.

--- I had given the verses concerning Crucifixion, which I was asked for. --- Are you suggesting that they were all forged, especially when Gabriel approved the Torah and the Gospel? (The Torah contains the prophecies concerning the coming Messiah, and the Gospel reveals the New Covenant  mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13.) --- Jesus is also called the Messiah in the Quran.

I think it is time to re-examine what Jesus said both in the Gospels and in the Quran


Concerning the Scriptures mentioned in the first video, I will write what it says in the footnote of each one:
--- The New King James footnote: John 7:53 -8:11 are bracketed ‘as not original.’ They are present in over 900 manuscripts.  ---End of footnote.
--- This was obviously included in manuscripts before the verses were numbered or John 8 would start at verse 12. --- It is the practice to include all the verses and make note that they are not in all manuscripts, --- then the reader can read it or not read it. --- It is no change or ‘corruption,’ and makes little difference whether it is read or not, does it?

The New King Jamess footnote: Mark 16:9-20 are bracketed ‘as not original.’ They are lacking in Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus although nearly all other manuscripts of Mark contain them. --- End of footnote.
--- (They are included in the Douay Version which was translated to English from the Latin Vulgate, which was translated from the Greek in 400.)

The possible explanation of this is that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome, in collaboration with Peter, and they may have made and distributed some copies without the ‘end of the Gospel,’ as written in Matthew. --- It may have been added, as you add a ‘post script’ to a letter --- so later copies of Mark would have contained it. --- (It is not suggested that Mark didn’t write it, just that some manuscripts, which came from the early copies, didn’t contain it.)

( I will respond to your second video and comments later.)


Placid

[Shia_Debater]

Hi placid

Quote

Sorry but you're mistaken. The Bible does not claim Jesus is God. Your thoughts are correct though, that would be in contradiction to the Quran.

Thanks for correcting me, however as you said the bible still contradicts the Qur'an. As Muslims we believe that the Qur'an is the word of God and has remained the word of God, and if it contradicts the Bible (whether it be on one occasion or more) it goes to show that (for us muslims) the Bible isn't reliable.

If Muslims take the Qur'an to be authentic with no errors, and Christians take the Bible to be correct with no errors, then the following 3 situations arise:

1-Bible is correct and Qur'an is wrong
2-Qur'an is correct and Bible is wrong
3-Both are correct

If we say both the Qur'an and the Bible are correct then we would have to look and see if there are any contradictions between the two books, if so then they can't be both correct, and you said there are which shows they aren't both correct.

The Qur'an does not say explicitly that the previous books/teachings have been corrupted, however it also does not say explicitly that the previous books/teachings have remained in their original form. Just because the verse says the previous scriptures have been confirmed this does not mean that it is confirming all scriptures (i.e. all of the gospels of OT and NT), it is logical to assume that it is confirming the previous scripture that was revealed to Jesus , not the previous scripture that was written down by the apostles of Jesus

That leaves the last option of is the Bible wrong? Now obviously to me, a Muslim who accepts the Qur'an being the word of God, I cannot believe the Gospels to be the word of God (or the teachings of Jesus revealed by God) if it contradicts with the Qur'an, and you who believe that the Bible is the word of Jesus do not believe the Qur'an as it contradicts the Bible.

[Son of Placid]

Shia_Debater, on 31 March 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Hi placid


Thanks for correcting me, however as you said the bible still contradicts the Qur'an. As Muslims we believe that the Qur'an is the word of God and has remained the word of God, and if it contradicts the Bible (whether it be on one occasion or more) it goes to show that (for us muslims) the Bible isn't reliable.

If Muslims take the Qur'an to be authentic with no errors, and Christians take the Bible to be correct with no errors, then the following 3 situations arise:

1-Bible is correct and Qur'an is wrong
2-Qur'an is correct and Bible is wrong
3-Both are correct

If we say both the Qur'an and the Bible are correct then we would have to look and see if there are any contradictions between the two books, if so then they can't be both correct, and you said there are which shows they aren't both correct.

The Qur'an does not say explicitly that the previous books/teachings have been corrupted, however it also does not say explicitly that the previous books/teachings have remained in their original form. Just because the verse says the previous scriptures have been confirmed this does not mean that it is confirming all scriptures (i.e. all of the gospels of OT and NT), it is logical to assume that it is confirming the previous scripture that was revealed to Jesus , not the previous scripture that was written down by the apostles of Jesus

That leaves the last option of is the Bible wrong? Now obviously to me, a Muslim who accepts the Qur'an being the word of God, I cannot believe the Gospels to be the word of God (or the teachings of Jesus revealed by God) if it contradicts with the Qur'an, and you who believe that the Bible is the word of Jesus do not believe the Qur'an as it contradicts the Bible.

Actually not what I meant. What I meant to say was if the Bible actually said Jesus was God it would contradict the Quran, but it doesn't say that.
As for son of, The Bible says Jesus would be called the son of God, and that He is many times, and called God His father many times as well, although it is a figure of speech and should never have been taken literally. In the same way It's written in John1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God. So how do you become a son? Being called a son doesn't actually make you a son. Sounds like God runs a big adoption agency called heaven,


Many of these contradictions are as simple as...

Let's say you and I were walking along when a bird flew by. You say the bird flew by on your right side, I say he flew by on my left side. To anyone hearing us both tell the story one of us is wrong or lying, and everyone not knowing who was telling the truth would question both our integrity unless we explained that the bird flew between us.

Edited by Son of Placid, 31 March 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[Shia_Debater]

Son of Placid, on 31 March 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Actually not what I meant. What I meant to say was if the Bible actually said Jesus was God it would contradict the Quran, but it doesn't say that.

Oh, my bad

Quote

As for son of, The Bible says Jesus would be called the son of God, and that He is many times, and called God His father many times as well, although it is a figure of speech and should never have been taken literally. In the same way It's written in John1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God. So how do you become a son? Being called a son doesn't actually make you a son. Sounds like God runs a big adoption agency called heaven,

Well I think it's a figure of speech, in the sense that we are all sons of God as in his creation, but not sons as in physically his son, since that is impossible.

Quote

Many of these contradictions are as simple as...

Let's say you and I were walking along when a bird flew by. You say the bird flew by on your right side, I say he flew by on my left side. To anyone hearing us both tell the story one of us is wrong or lying, and everyone not knowing who was telling the truth would question both our integrity unless we explained that the bird flew between us.

Contradictions within the Bible itself or you mean contradictions between the Bible and the Qur'an?

[Son of Placid]

Shia_Debater, on 31 March 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

Oh, my bad

Not so bad, maybe I said it wrong.

Quote

Well I think it's a figure of speech, in the sense that we are all sons of God as in his creation, but not sons as in physically his son, since that is impossible.

Agreed.

Quote

Contradictions within the Bible itself or you mean contradictions between the Bible and the Qur'an?

It could be either. I'm thinking the Quran and the Bible agree, we just don't know how yet.

[ateef]

Ok thanks Placid. I shall go thru them.I am sorry i am a bit late joining this discussion

[placid]

Hi Debater,

(To comment on the video first) from Post 14:
It seems that the main theme of Muslim preachers is criticism of Christianity, and in this case the Gospel writers.

All of these disciples would have heard the Sermon on the Mount, and especially Matthew 5:1-12, which teaches humility. Their writing is done in the third person and they draw little attention to themselves.
--- It would be rather arrogant for one of them to say, “The Gospel according to Me, I wrote it, --- Luke.”

However, Luke starts his Gospel account by saying that he has had ‘perfect understanding of all things from the very first,’ --- then he names the one he is writing to, and the reason for what he is writing.

How could he identify himself more explicitly?

While he speaks of Mark as a ten year old, --- there is something mentioned only in Mark’s Gospel that would identify him as at least a teenager in Mark 14:
51 Now a certain young man followed Him, having a linen cloth thrown around his naked body. And the young men laid hold of him,
52 and he left the linen cloth and fled from them naked.

--- (This was when they arrested Jesus, and the mob from the Pharisees that came with Judas would have also arrested any who gave them trouble, so when the ‘young men’ from the mob went to grab Mark, he slipped out of his single garment ‘and fled from them naked.’)
If Mark was perhaps 15 at that time, then he would have been about 30 when he went on a missionary journey with his cousin Barnabas and Paul in 45 AD.
And he would have been 35-40 when he went with Peter to Rome where he wrote his Gospel account a few years later, about 60 AD.

The video speaker mentions that Matthew copied from Mark, but also that Matthew’s second source was the mysterious “Q” --- but since Matthew wrote a previous Gospel in Aramaic, that would be the only previous ‘source’ of the Gospel --- so Matthew was really the first writer, so he was placed first.

--- (Since we, and the critics, weren’t there when it happened, all of these ‘sideline’ things are of little importance compared to the ‘Message of the Gospel,’ --- which is why Jesus came, Surah 3:49.)

John, one of the first disciples, identifies himself in the first person in John 1:
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among US, and WE beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John (the Baptist) bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And of His fullness WE have all received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

--- And there is another identification in John 13:
21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.”
22 Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke.

--- The disciple ‘WHOM JESUS LOVED’ was John, himself.
--- (While Jesus loved all the disciples, John was perhaps the closest in that he and Andrew, Peter’s brother, were the first disciples. --- John was likely quite young and was one of the three ‘inner circle’ of Peter, James, and John, who saw Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, Matthew 17:1-8.

--- Following this theme of John as the disciple ‘whom Jesus loved,’ we see it in the following verses, --- as well as the identifications: --- ‘Another disciple‘ or ‘that disciple’ or ‘that other disciple’  or ‘the disciple,’ --- in order as they are written:

John 18:15. And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple.
15. Now that disciple was known to the high priest, and went with Jesus into the courtyard of the high priest.
16. The other disciple, who was known to the high priest, went out and --- brought Peter in.
19:26. When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!”
27. Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!”
27. And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.
20:2.    Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple,
3. Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb.
4. and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first.
8. Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed
21:7. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!”
20. Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following,
23. Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die.
24. This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

--- Any reader of the Gospel of John would know that John is relating his own experiences. --- And he has been since called “The Beloved Apostle.”

From John 1:14 and 16 where John said, “We” and “US,” which shows that he was there when it happened --- to the further evidence in the Book of Acts, where Peter and John travelled together, it is quite conclusive.
3:1. Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer,
4:13. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John,

(Sorry, a little long, but in response to the negativity of the video speaker.)


Placid

[Shia_Debater]

No worries (for it being a bit long)

I have no reply/counter argument since what you said was in reply to what the person said in the video which I posted before I came to the conclusion of post #17

Also I do not have enough knowledge to comment or refute any points made by you

[placid]

Hi Debater,

Thank you for your comments

I want to follow that with a response to your three options from Post 17:

1-Bible is correct and Qur'an is wrong
2-Qur'an is correct and Bible is wrong
3-Both are correct

I believe both the Bible and the Quran to be correct.

--- When I began reading the Quran, I was interested to read these verses that prove they are both the Word of God.
Starting in Surah 3:
2. God! There is no god but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4. Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
--- (At this point many Surahs had not been revealed and the Quran was years away from being a book, so it refers to ‘The Scriptures’ as a Book.)

--- (The Jews were offended with Muhammad and wanted to hinder his work and would ask for answers and try to catch him in something they could blame him for.)
5:41. O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews, - men who will listen to any lie, - will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee.
42. (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For God loveth those who judge in equity.
43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them? - therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
44.It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.
47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute.

--- (I believe that where it says, “And follow not their vain desires,” that it refers to the Jews mentioned in verses 41-42. --- And 43 says “They have their Law before them.” --- Does that not say that they had the Torah in hand?)
--- (And verse 46 mentions Jesus and the Gospel  which “was guidance and light, and confirmation of the law that had come before him.”)
Verse 47. “Let the people of the Gospel judge by that which was revealed therein.” --- Does that not say that they had the NT in hand?

Verse 48 is my favorite verse because to me it says:
--- God is revealing to Muhammad the truth, confirming the former Scriptures.
--- And guarding or protecting them in safety (regardless of the fact that they passed through human hands).
--- To each of the three mentioned, the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims, We (God) has given a law and an open way, or Straight path.
--- So we are to ‘strive together’ in all virtue and goodness, (good works),
--- Because our goal is to know and be accepted by God.

Yes, I believe it all, consider also that this was revealed by Gabriel to Muhammad about 625,and there have been no changes in the Scriptures since then

--- I hope this gives you an understanding of how I read it, and perhaps gives a new perspective.

I will be glad to discuss what you see as contradiction between the Quran and New Testament. --- We can make it a study, perhaps as a new topic.


Placid

[placid]

Hi Raqaya’s Amal,

I want to respond to your video in Post 2:

The speaker was entertaining but not very truthful. He said his friend went to a Seminary and they taught some Hebrew and Greek, then had them examine thousands of manuscripts. --- That would be a life’s work. Not only does it take years to fluently learn a language for that kind of study, --- but Seminaries are for training Christians to be Pastors and teachers, not to be archeologists.

His friend suggested they read the Bible so they started at Genesis.

He said (and repeated a few times), that Noah was an alcoholic.
--- Gen 9:20. Noah began to be a farmer and he planted a vineyard.
21. Then he drank of the wine and was drunk.

--- This is the first time wine is mentioned, and the only time it mentions Noah, or anyone else drinking. --- His being drunk may have been unintentional. --- Before the flood when the water canopy above the earth filtered the sun, they may have been able to keep fruit and juice fresh without it fermenting. After the water canopy fell, which caused the flood, the sun’s rays were directly on the earth and unpreserved fruit or juice would ferment quickly, as it does today.

--- He didn’t like the story of Lot and thought it read better in the Quran, but one has only to check the internet to find that the Moabites and Ammonites were descendants of Lot through his two daughters.
--- (This sounds bad to us, but since Lot’s family was wiped out, the daughters reasoned that there would be no continuation of the family, --- as well as coming from Sodom and Gomorrah, which were destroyed for their gross immorality, --- they may have though it was making the best of a bad situation.)

--- Then in the NT he wanted to make the point that Jesus kept the Jewish law and Paul taught that the law was replaced.

In Matthew 5, 6, and 7, which is called, “The Sermon on the Mount,” Jesus explained how the OT laws were fulfilled in the new law of Love. And He taught. “Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.”

Loving God means surrendering your will to God’s will and believing the Scripture as well as believing in Jesus as the Savior and Messiah that God sent to the Jews, --- and is the Savior of all who believe in Him.

Believing in God, and the Scriptures, and in Jesus, requires Faith, and Hebrews 11 is called the “Faith Chapter,” --- because it mentions the OT Patriarchs and Saints who lived by Faith. ---This verse says it plainly:
6. “For without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.”

--- He was put off by the verse from the OT, “Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree,” (or is crucified).

--- However, this is the important part of the New Covenant that is often misunderstood. --- There had to be a sacrifice for sin, and the death of the Sacrifice (Jesus), --- before there could be a resurrection, and ascension to God, Surah 3:55.  The Scripture says of Jesus, “He who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.”
The death and rising again was the defeat of Satan, so that those who believe in God and follow Jesus can receive God’s Holy Spirit, and the assurance of eternal life. --- The Power of the Gospel was not in the death, but in the resurrection.  

--- The speaker said he rejected faith and began to indulge in the things of the world. --- He began to read about other religions and then came to the Quran, which he accepted. --- He was attracted to them for their kneeling in prayer.

He said “God will forgive everything, using the name of Abraham and Moses.”
--- He also said that, “Jesus taught Islam,” --- but I don’t know what he was referring to except the ‘surrender to God,’ --- which is what ‘islam’ means.  

--- (But the Quran also teaches faith in God and repentance, then yielding to the will of God, ---  and this involves going through the ‘Gihad,” --- the inner struggle to be converted. --- then one becomes a vessel that God can use)

--- He ended the last few minutes by saying, “We must get the message out,” --- and, “Pass the message on.”

--- Never once did he say what the ‘message’ is, so it remains that he didn’t say what to believe. --- HIS message seemed to be his own testimony.


Placid