188 replies to this topic

[ShiaSoldier@2007]

Almost any miracle could be passed off as simply magic until even after Prophet Mohammed's time let alone Prophet Musa's. In today's time if a true miracle was seen, or if god himself spoke to every man, they would believe.

It is very easy to call non muslims ignorant, but just realize that you would most likely be exactly like them had you not been born into a muslim family. Here is an easy experiment, watch this video:



I can guarantee that you will deny everyone of those "miracles", shouldn't you be considered blind for denying them?

Edited by ShiaSoldier@2007, 27 March 2012 - 04:36 PM.

[.InshAllah.]

On the one hand Ugly Jinn is telling us that Islam brought nothing new, and on the other he's asking for proof that Islam existed prior the 7th century.  Well, if he thinks that Islam brought nothing new, then he must have proof that all of the tenets of Islam existed prior to the 7th century!  Perhaps he wants us to find a faith that contained all of these tenets together, but theres no reason to think that we must find evidence of such a faith.  We know for a fact that religions are corrupted/ changed over time (even false ones).  We know that books are burnt, followers are killed, and texts are lost over time.  The onus is on him to give us a proper argument.

[Ugly Jinn]

.InshAllah., on 27 March 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

On the one hand Ugly Jinn is telling us that Islam brought nothing new, and on the other he's asking for proof that Islam existed prior the 7th century.  

Yeah, they are 2 different things, can you prove either?

Quote

Well, if he thinks that Islam brought nothing new, then he must have proof that all of the tenets of Islam existed prior to the 7th century!

Are you serious? Just look at your Articles of Faith/Roots of Religion/Usool ad Deen:

1. Tawheed = Existed prior to Quran/Prophet (ex. Judiasm, Zoroastrianism, etc)
2. God is Just = Existed before Quran/Prophet (ex. Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, etc.)
3. Prophets/Imams = Concept of divine agents existed in religion previous to Quran/Prophet (ex. Judiasm)
4. Day of Judgement = Existed before Quran/Prophet (ex. Judaism, Christianity, etc.)

Plus:
Concept of Holy scripture existed before
Concept of Heaven and Hell existed before
Concept of evil existed before
Concept of Angels existed before
Concept of miracles existed before
Concept of Holy places existed before (ex. Temples, Synagogues, Churches, etc.)
..............

Quote

Perhaps he wants us to find a faith that contained all of these tenets together, but theres no reason to think that we must find evidence of such a faith.  We know for a fact that religions are corrupted/ changed over time (even false ones).  We know that books are burnt, followers are killed, and texts are lost over time.  The onus is on him to give us a proper argument.

The onus is on you to source the void of thousands of years with 123,999 Prophets prior to 610 ac, not I.

[.InshAllah.]

Ugly Jinn, on 27 March 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Yeah, they are 2 different things, can you prove either?

If Islam existed prior to 7th century then of course it brought nothing new.

Quote

Are you serious? Just look at your Articles of Faith/Roots of Religion/Usool ad Deen:

1. Tawheed = Existed prior to Quran/Prophet (ex. Judiasm, Zoroastrianism, etc)
2. God is Just = Existed before Quran/Prophet (ex. Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, etc.)
3. Prophets/Imams = Concept of divine agents existed in religion previous to Quran/Prophet (ex. Judiasm)
4. Day of Judgement = Existed before Quran/Prophet (ex. Judaism, Christianity, etc.)

Plus:
Concept of Holy scripture existed before
Concept of Heaven and Hell existed before
Concept of evil existed before
Concept of Angels existed before
Concept of miracles existed before
Concept of Holy places existed before (ex. Temples, Synagogues, Churches, etc.)
..............

And this is supposed to prove what exactly?  'The main tenets of Islam were accepted by people of different faiths prior to 7th C, therefore Islam is made up'.  Do you realise how retarded this argument is?  The funny thing is that Judaism accepts everything in the list above.  So there you have it, a religion prior to Islam which accepted all of the main tenets of Islam.  Isnt that what you were asking for?

Quote

The onus is on you to source the void of thousands of years with 123,999 Prophets prior to 610 ac, not I.

No actually it isnt, because 99.9% of these may have been local prophets sent to a small group of people, eg a few hundred in a village, and we wouldnt expect to have the kind of detailed evidence you are asking for in these cases.

[Ugly Jinn]

.InshAllah., on 28 March 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

If Islam existed prior to 7th century then of course it brought nothing new.

You still aren't providing proof, you just keep repeating yourself.

Quote

And this is supposed to prove what exactly?  'The main tenets of Islam were accepted by people of different faiths prior to 7th C, therefore Islam is made up'.  Do you realise how retarded this argument is?  The funny thing is that Judaism accepts everything in the list above.  So there you have it, a religion prior to Islam which accepted all of the main tenets of Islam.  Isnt that what you were asking for?

It proves that the Islam you believe in today (610-635 ac) copied existing concepts/tenets from previous religions.

Only thing retarded is that you can't prove anything yet keep claiming.

And who cares about Judaism, I'm speaking of Islam only.

Quote

No actually it isnt, because 99.9% of these may have been local prophets sent to a small group of people, eg a few hundred in a village, and we wouldnt expect to have the kind of detailed evidence you are asking for in these cases.

No one is asking for detailed evidence. But anyways, you are admitting there is no proof of your belief prior to Quran/Islam, hence the point of my thread.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 28 March 2012 - 01:50 PM.

[:Sami]

Ugly Jinn, on 28 March 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

You still aren't providing proof, you just keep repeating yourself.




It proves that the Islam you believe in today (610-635 ac) copied existing concepts/tenets from previous religions.

Only thing retarded is that you can't prove anything yet keep claiming.

And who cares about Judaism, I'm speaking of Islam only.



No one is asking for detailed evidence. But anyways, you are admitting there is no proof of your belief prior to Quran/Islam, hence the point of my thread.

BRILLIANT !!!
YOU ARE CORRECT!!!

[worshiper]

o.k. man we quit. there is no documented proof other than quran about islam. we actually tried to confirm everything  from the quran and hadeeths.
thats y prophet(saww) was sent to us and for the same reason Allah(swt) protected quran till now, so that we believe in it and prophet(saww) blindly.

[:Sami]

Ugly Jinn, on 21 March 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Based on dates of scriptures = Quran 610-635ac:

• Islam wasn't the first monotheistic religion
  
• Islam wasn't the first to create the concept of Heaven/Hell/Purgatory
  
• Islam wasn't the first to create the concept of Prophets/Divine agents
  
• Islam wasn't the first to create the concept of angels/satan
  
• Islam wasn't the first to have holy scriptures
  
• Islam wasn't the first to create laws to organize society
  
• Islam wasn't the first to create the concept of prayer

There are no scriptures before the Quran regarding Islam or are claimed fabricated.

What exactly did Islam bring that was original?

When you say islam , do you mean this ISLAM or this :Islam.?
When you say religion , are you talking about RELIGION, or :Religion ?
Please clarify so I can answer your question.

[ateef]

@ Ugly Jinn.If we would know Or even If I would get a Hint that You are Deaf and Blind. I would not have wasted my time.

It seems you are deliberately Spamming here.

[Dhulfikar]

Quote

It proves that the Islam you believe in today (610-635 ac) copied existing concepts/tenets from previous religions.
That's the whole point, Islam has copied aspects from previous religions.

Similarities do not necessary prove itself that the concepts are "copied" from previous religions. You only listed an similarities between x and previous y religion, but you did not prove that actually Muhammad (SAWS) himself was influenced or learned knowledge from others religions and made an Quran with knowledge of previous religions. So that the similarities we see today are actually brought from previous religions or in other words copied.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 29 March 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[Quisant]

Dhulfikar, on 29 March 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Similarities do not necessary prove itself that the concepts are "copied" from previous religions. You only listed an similarities between x and previous y religion, but you did not prove that actually Muhammad (SAWS) himself was influenced or learned knowledge from others religions and made an Quran with knowledge of previous religions. So that the similarities we see today are actually brought from previous religions or in other words copied.

You might find this interesting.


The islamic scholar Alfred Guillame in his book about Islam writes:
http://en.wikipedia....lfred_Guillaume

"The Nestorian monks established schools in many towns. In their monasteries monks could be heard chanting their offices, so that the Arabs became accustomed to seeing the monks at pray day and night, prostrating themselves with their faces to the ground.
In prayer the Christians turned to the east. Such men were a familiar sight on all the caravan routes of Arabia. The monastery at Hira was established by the Nestorians in the fifth century, and from thence Christianity was carried to Bahrayn.
While Muhammad was a young man, King Nu'man of Hira was converted to Christianity. The church in the east was predominately Nestorian, though a fair number of Monophysites(God with a single nature) were to be found there." (Guillaume, "Islam", p. 15)

wslm.
*

[Dhulfikar]

Quisant, on 29 March 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

You might find this interesting.


The islamic scholar Alfred Guillame in his book about Islam writes:
http://en.wikipedia....lfred_Guillaume

"The Nestorian monks established schools in many towns. In their monasteries monks could be heard chanting their offices, so that the Arabs became accustomed to seeing the monks at pray day and night, prostrating themselves with their faces to the ground.
In prayer the Christians turned to the east. Such men were a familiar sight on all the caravan routes of Arabia. The monastery at Hira was established by the Nestorians in the fifth century, and from thence Christianity was carried to Bahrayn.
While Muhammad was a young man, King Nu'man of Hira was converted to Christianity. The church in the east was predominately Nestorian, though a fair number of Monophysites(God with a single nature) were to be found there." (Guillaume, "Islam", p. 15)

wslm.
*

Thank you for information, i should study his works.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 29 March 2012 - 07:10 AM.

[iDevonian]

Dhulfikar, on 29 March 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Similarities do not necessary prove itself that the concepts are "copied" from previous religions. You only listed an similarities between x and previous y religion, but you did not prove that actually Muhammad (SAWS) himself was influenced or learned knowledge from others religions and made an Quran with knowledge of previous religions. So that the similarities we see today are actually brought from previous religions or in other words copied.

Well, it does appear that Islam copied off of prior religions, so the real question becomes, why does anyone believe that it hasnt been copied?

As we can see, there is no evidence prior to the Quran, so how would anyone know that it wasnt copied?

This question is rhetoric by the way.  Its not meant to be answered.

Edited by iDevonian, 29 March 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[Dhulfikar]

iDevonian, on 29 March 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Well, it does appear that Islam copied off of prior religions, so the real question becomes, why does anyone believe that it hasnt been copied?

Where it's appear? And the real question will be first where is the proof that it was copied from previous religions.

Quote

As we can see, there is no evidence prior to the Quran, so how would anyone know that it wasnt copied?

What kind of evidence you are searching?

[iDevonian]

Dhulfikar, on 29 March 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

Where it's appear? And the real question will be first where is the proof that it was copied from previous religions.

For example, The statement about the monks from earlier. It appears to be copied because its the same practices with the same teachings. And you guys are making the claim that it is original, you are the ones who need to support that.

Dhulfikar, on 29 March 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

What kind of evidence you are searching?

Preferably evidence that pre dates other religions and the Quran. But there really isnt any evidence from so early of a time that would demonstrate that it werent copied. Rather people use subjective evidence post introduction of the Quran.

Edited by iDevonian, 29 March 2012 - 10:56 AM.

[Dhulfikar]

Quote

For example, The statement about the monks from earlier. It appears to be copied because its the same practices with the same teachings. And you guys are making the claim that it is original, you are the ones who need to support that.

You mean the statement of Guillaume? Is that for you an evidence to conclude that Muhammad copied the same practice and teaching from monks? You do realise that actually such a statement does only gives an possibility, not actual proof. The problem here is that such a statement is not an sufficient for evidence (also depend on the definition of evidence).

Edited by Dhulfikar, 29 March 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[iDevonian]

Dhulfikar, on 29 March 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

You mean the statement of Guillaume? Is that for you an evidence to conclude that Muhammad copied the same practice and teaching from monks? You do realise that actually such a statement does only gives an possibility, not actual proof. The problem here is that such a statement is not an sufficient for evidence.

Well, the thing is, its your religion, so its your belief that your religion hasnt been copied.  So the question is why would you believe that it hasnt been copied when there is evidence that it has.

"And you guys are making the claim that it is original, you are the ones who need to support that."

"But there really isnt any evidence from so early of a time that would demonstrate that it werent copied. Rather people use subjective evidence post introduction of the Quran."

Edited by iDevonian, 29 March 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[Dhulfikar]

Quote

Well, the thing is, its your religion, so its your belief that your religion hasnt been copied. So the question is why would you believe that it hasnt been copied when there is evidence that it has.

My belief is irrelevant Here. I'm here seeking the sufficent evidence for that bold part. And your evidence is not an sufficent, it is only an possibility (If even the information is truth, but lets assume that it is) which does not lead anything to conclusion that Muhammad was copying.

[iDevonian]

Dhulfikar, on 29 March 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

My belief is irrelevant Here. I'm here seeking the sufficent evidence for that bold part. And your evidence is not an sufficent, it is only an possibility (If even the information is truth, but lets assume that it is) which does not lead anything to conclusion that Muhammad was copying.

Well, the people who make the claims are the ones who are to present the proof of the claim.  

As we both agree, there is evidence that Islam has been copied, it appears to be true.  So you guys are to defend yourselves.

Personally I could care less.  Its not my religion.  But as muslims you guys should be critiquing your own faith. If you recognize there is evidence contrary to your beliefs, you should step up and present proof as to why Islam has not been copied.  If it were my faith, that is what I would be inclined to do.

Hence the purpose of discussion.  If there is evidence for Islam that pre dates these other religions and their practices, then you would have your proof and we wouldnt be having this discussion.

But no such proof exists. And so we are left with subjective post Quran evidences.

Edited by iDevonian, 29 March 2012 - 11:28 AM.

[Dhulfikar]

iDevonian, on 29 March 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Well, the people who make the claims are the ones who are to present the proof of the claim.  As we both agree, there is evidence that Islam has been copied.  So you guys are to defend yourselves.

Where did I agree that we have evidence that Islam copied from other religions? I'm here seeking an sufficent evidence that we can conclude that Muhammad was copying from previous Religion. Actually that is the whole point why i ask "Jinn" for proof for his statement.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 29 March 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[iDevonian]

Dhulfikar, on 29 March 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Where did I agree that we have evidence that Islam copied from other religions? I'm here seeking an sufficent evidence that we can conclude that Muhammad was copying from previous Religion.

You recognized that practices that Islam uses predate Islam itself, which is indicative of copying.  And so, you should prove otherwise.

If you cant prove that Islam hasnt been copied, but you see that Islams practices and teachings existed in other religions prior to Islam itself, you should try to fix that situation.

Its like, If your teacher gave you an exam and saw that you had identical responses on your paper as someone who took it before you.  She said "hey it looks like you copied off of the person before you".

You should show the teacher that you didnt copy.  You dont say "teacher you cant prove I didnt copy so you cant accuse me!".

No, you demonstrate your objective knowledge. And you show her that you didnt copy.

One way to prove that you didnt copy would be to show the teacher that your answers existed before everyone elses (present evidence for Islam that pre dates the Quran and other religions).

But this cant be done.

Edited by iDevonian, 29 March 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[Dhulfikar]

iDevonian, on 29 March 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

You recognized that practices that Islam uses predate Islam itself, which is indicative of copying.  And so, you should prove otherwise.

I have said this before "Similarities do not necessary prove itself that the concepts are "copied" from previous religions.". It does only indicative an possibility of different possibilities.

Quote

If you cant prove that Islam hasnt been copied, but you see that Islams practices and teachings existed in other religions prior to Islam itself, you should try to fix that situation.

My seeing or my viewpoint is irrelevant again. I'm here seeking an indisputable fact of matter that Muhamamd did copied from previous religion.

[iDevonian]

Dhulfikar, on 29 March 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

I have said this before "Similarities do not necessary prove itself that the concepts are "copied" from previous religions.". It does only indicative an possibility of different possibilities.

Exactly.  So if you took an exam, and it was indicative that person A cheated on the exam, how would you prove to the teacher that they didnt copy?

Well, you cant show the teacher that the persons answers (Islam) were the first, because no evidence exists prior to the exam itself (no evidence prior to 610/Quran).  And since the person submitted their exam after everyone else submitted theirs (Islam came after many other religions), it appears that the person has copied.

But if you believe the person didnt copy, you should demonstrate why they didnt copy to the teacher. Or even to yourself.  Because its your belief, you should be the first to disprove other options. Otherwise you are left with a subjective opinion.

Dhulfikar, on 29 March 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

It does only indicative an possibility of different possibilities.

Part of having a religion, is defeating the possibilities of other religions being true. Here, you admit that there are other possibilities. But you arent demonstrating why those other possibilities are wrong.  Here we have evidence of religions that had these practices before the religion of Islam, so the question now becomes, how do we know Islam isnt a copy.

Edited by iDevonian, 29 March 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[:Sami]

I love this post , just shows me how screwed up the english language is...
thanks to :Allah.(swt) that the :Quran. was written in his perfect :Arabic. language.

[Dhulfikar]

Quote

Well, you cant show the teacher that the persons answers (Islam) were the first, because no evidence exists prior to the exam itself (no evidence prior to 610/Quran). And since the person submitted their exam after everyone else submitted theirs (Islam came after many other religions), it appears that the person has copied.

You demostrated only one possibility. Another possibility is that for example the person may solve an problem whitouth knowing that the problem is already solved. That is not an copying.

Quote

Part of having a religion, is defeating the possibilities of other religions being true. Here, you admit that there are other possibilities. But you arent demonstrating why those other possibilities are wrong.

Why should i need to demostrate any possibilites here? I'm here seeking the solid proof that the possibility you claim as an truth is ACTUALLY truth.