19 replies to this topic

[AR2011]

first off, there are many good things about western culture. this post is about all the negative things. there is so much anti-muslim propoganda spread in the west about us - most of which is largely untrue or at least skewed. i think its time we let the westerners know what we think are the bad aspects of their culture - albeit in a bit of a controversial way. this list doesnt apply to every single westerner but to the majority.

1. u cant have a good time unless it involves alcohol. u dont know what it means to be happy/ have a good time unless uve got a drink in ur hand
2. ur family units have broken down. mostly, u spoil ur kids when theyre young but as soon as they grow into their mid-teens u give them so much freedom and less attention. ur too busy in ur own lives that they go off the rails. its normal that ur kids leave home when theyre 18 and grow closer to their friends than  their family. in return, as ur kids then grow and have a family of their own, most of them will only visit u a few times a year (unless they live very close by) and when ur really old, the majority will let the state look after u (eg in care homes)
3. ur girls are loose. in a search for "equality" and assertion of female rights, ur women have taken it too far with the trend of binge drinking growing faster in girls than boys. teenage pregnancy is rife. u have become so desensitised to the immodesty that u dont bat an eyelid if ur 18 year old daughter is dressed in a miniskirt on a night out (after all, she's "old enough to do as she pleases").
4. depression has become so common - the west is comparatively rich in the materiliastic sense but u also have the highest rates of depression and its mostly because ur family units have broken down. u dont spend time with the family. its even quite common for teenagers to take holidays with their friends rather than come on a holiday with the family.
5. u seem to be genuinely surprised by others' perspectives. u cant seem to acknowledge that covering up may not be a sign of oppression but rather a sign of modesty and a sign that we value our bodies. u think someone's a killjoy if they dont go clubbing or drink (even if u dont say such things, most of u will be thinking them)

wow, i surprised myself at how direct that was. my thoughts are that most muslims will agree with my list. if u dont, i want to hear from u. if anyone  has anything else they want to add to the list, pls feel free.

and would love to hear from westerners (ethnically european /american etc) about their views on this. have i been too harsh? are there other ways of interpreting these cultural phenomenons? as muslims, we are rarely given the opportunity to counter the claims made against our way of life but i want to be better than that.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

AR2011, on 11 March 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

i think its time we let the westerners know what we think are the bad aspects of their culture

I thought we did/do that already. I'm sure Westerners are largely familiar with our criticisms of their cultural ways. So this list is not at all surprising.

Also, in this ever-increasingly globalized era, it is hard to say what exactly is "Western culture", especially seeing as you will find in many Eastern/Muslim countries, these same cultural traits which are becoming ever more apparent, and that socially expected outward displays of religiosity and piety are merely surface deep.

Ironically, If anything I've found many Muslims living in the West to actually have a seemingly more sincere adhernce to religion than those living in so-called Muslim countries, because it is more often than not intertwined in their culture and norms.

[Quranist]

good points

[Quisant]

I am Arab / Italian and have lived most of my life in Europe, there is some dust of truth in what you say but it it would be a gross exaggeration to say  that your post describes European culture.
There are in excess of 300 million people in Europe and the great majority live quite normal lives.

What remains a mystery is why so many Arabs desire to come and live in Europe at the risk of contamination from such a sinful society.
wslm.
*

[Alejandro Sosa]

Agreed.

Unfortunately many of my Muslim friends have succumbed to this, so I have minimized contact with a lot of them. Also, our women have unfortunately basically become western girls, only with hijabs, its very disappointing.

[forte]

However the west is messed up but does not pretend to be different and will say the above and self criticise the people and culture. The east culture is about pretending things are better than they are and to hide this from others. and yes lie about it.

[AR2011]

quisant, as propaganda of the deed said, u dont have to be living in the west to be affected by such culture. internet, tv etc has meant that middle easterners (and others) have started to emulate some of these things - in a desire to be "western" because it is seen as progressive and a sign of superiority.

also, it is possible to live in the west and raise ur kids in such a way as to protect them from the negatives of western culture. living in the west affords a lot of positive things - not everything in western culture is bad

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

I've been to enough Eastern/Muslim countries, several times enough to have been disillusioned with my initial idealistic and naive expectations and assumptions that such societies are morally superior or less corrupt. The same stuff goes on in Muslim countries, literally. They are just better at hiding it as forte said.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed, 11 March 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[forte]

Quisant, on 11 March 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

What remains a mystery is why so many Arabs desire to come and live in Europe at the risk of contamination from such a sinful society.
wslm.
*

You are right it is a mystery. It is no secret what the west culture is with tv and internet but people with much willingness leave their home to come to the west.

[AR2011]

forte, i disageree with the first part of ur comment. there is very little self-criticism. most ppl dont see it that its a bad thing that they drink alcohol to "let their hair down" and have fun and relax. most people dont see anything wrong with "getting dressed up" for a night out. most people dont see a problem with sending their parents to care homes when their old. most ppl find this an absolutely normal way of living their life.

i agree with the second part of ur comment though ..that in muslim communities, some of this goes on but behind closed doors and there is a lot of hypocrisy.

[Alejandro Sosa]

The same stuff has happened in Muslim countries because of globalization, I.e. music, movies etc. This stuff has a powerful effect. Our religious and cultural identities are being eroded. Unfortunately I can see this even in some of my own relatives and it hurts me. Inshallah when I have kids ill be their role model, not Paris Hilton or lil Wayne

[forte]

AR2011, on 11 March 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

forte, i disageree with the first part of ur comment. there is very little self-criticism. most ppl dont see it that its a bad thing that they drink alcohol to "let their hair down" and have fun and relax. most people dont see anything wrong with "getting dressed up" for a night out. most people dont see a problem with sending their parents to care homes when their old. most ppl find this an absolutely normal way of living their life.

i agree with the second part of ur comment though ..that in muslim communities, some of this goes on but behind closed doors and there is a lot of hypocrisy.

No, I still agree with myself

There is a lot of programs, articles and such about the lifestyle of the anti-depressant crowd, problems with kids and stressed out families with no fathers. This is not a secret. It is normal I think as you say but it is recognized as bad but no answer to solve. I don't mean people do something about it but the society does realize its problems and are open about them.

Yes, the treatment of the old people is shameful. And they dont see a problem with that. so i agree there.

Edited by forte, 11 March 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[AR2011]

Alejandro, the problem is that we arent proud of our heritage/religion any more. when u have an inferiority complex about who u r. u will willingly imitate anything which u see as "superior" even if it is to the detriment of ur self

forte, to an extent ur right..ppl do recognise that single parent families arent a good thing, that depression isnt a good thing etc but i would argue that they cant seem to recognise the true source of these problems. they dont seem to see that promiscuity, immodesty and alcohol leads to unwanted preganancies, broken families and depression. they think the problem is to do with not enough education about contraception or not enough drinking awareness. rather than saying the problem is that our society is loose - fixated on having a good time rather than upholding morals, they try to tackle side issues which probably would make a difference but wont solve the real problem. its like, if u have a leak in ur house, the solution is to fix the leak, not t put a bucket to catch the leaking water. sure, the bucket will do its bit for a while but essentially, the problem is still there.

Edited by AR2011, 11 March 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[forte]

AR2011, on 11 March 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

forte, to an extent ur right..ppl do recognise that single parent families arent a good thing, that depression isnt a good thing etc but i would argue that they cant seem to recognise the true source of these problems. they dont seem to see that promiscuity, immodesty and alcohol leads to unwanted preganancies, broken families and depression. they think the problem is to do with not enough education about contraception or not enough drinking awareness. rather than saying the problem is that our society is loose - fixated on having a good time rather than upholding morals, they try to tackle side issues which probably would make a difference but wont solve the real problem. its like, if u have a leak in ur house, the solution is to fix the leak, not t put a bucket to catch the leaking water. sure, the bucket will do its bit for a while but essentially, the problem is still there.

Yes, I agree the solutions they try are not going to work.

Edited by forte, 11 March 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[AR2011]

^and thats because they dont seem capable of recognising the real problem

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

AR2011, on 11 March 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

most people dont see a problem with sending their parents to care homes when their old. most ppl find this an absolutely normal way of living their life.

Interestingly enough, there has been a rise in the number of old people's homes in India.

Quote

Old age was never a problem in India. Old age homes were alien in concept and elder abuse was considered a Western problem. Not any more. As life expectancy has increased from 41 years in 1951 to 64 years today, hundreds of old age homes have sprung up in India. Neglect of parents has become a big issue, so much so that the Indian government has passed "The maintenance and welfare of parents and senior citizens bill 2006", which makes it imperative for adult children to look after their parents.

Also British Asians are beginning to follow the trend.. http://www.guardian....sarfraz-manzoor

[Ruq]

I agree that the things you list are bit problems, but i dont think its a western culture problem, i think its a natural 'progression' for want of a better word, for all cultures that are irreligious and have relative wealth. So you see it all over the world. There may be an element of mimicing, but decadant/selfish/destructive behaviour can be seen through the ages, modern western culture doesnt have a monopoly on it. I have been to a few so called Islamic countries, and as a woman i feel 10 times safer in the UK than i did in any of them. Women in the UK can dress very provocatively,  its amazing that they can do that and still enjoy a level of respect and safety that they wouldnt have in some so called Islamic countries. I have been to a few and although i wasnt wearing a headscarf, i was quite modestly dressed, but was treated like a sexual object and peice of meat to such a shocking extent that i barely left the hotel. It was so vile. Ive never been treated like that in the UK, no matter what ive worn. There are 2 sides to this coin.

[Quisant]

I agree with Ruqaya's Amal, the sense of individual freedom available in Europe is non existent in the Middle east,

There is nobody checking how devout or pious you are,  Religion is taken to be something personal between you and God.
Most people are quite prepared to leave it at that.

I like that, priceless. and since I discovered Classical music and Opera and Theatre ...there is no going back.

[Alejandro Sosa]

I agree AR2011..gheera of our customs and religion is fading..the newest generations of our kids will be most affected..they're bombarded with western media 24/7 these days. Even us grown ppl have a hard time detaching ourselves from it. I love American movies for example. This is one way ppl's become accustomed to these ideas.

English ppl, I have to laugh at them sometimes. What kind of parent allows their 13 year old daughter to be roaming the streets at 10pm, let alone in makeup, short skirts, etc. The worst I saw was a dad and his girl, she was wearing see through leggings so u could see her underwear. Shameful. And as I said, our girls are going in the same direction. The fancy hijabs, OTT makeup, no restrictions...guys see this and react to it. Parents don't monitor their kids or teach them anymore. Very sad.

[AR2011]

~Ruqaya, on 11 March 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

I agree that the things you list are bit problems, but i dont think its a western culture problem, i think its a natural 'progression' for want of a better word, for all cultures that are irreligious and have relative wealth. So you see it all over the world. There may be an element of mimicing, but decadant/selfish/destructive behaviour can be seen through the ages, modern western culture doesnt have a monopoly on it. I have been to a few so called Islamic countries, and as a woman i feel 10 times safer in the UK than i did in any of them. Women in the UK can dress very provocatively,  its amazing that they can do that and still enjoy a level of respect and safety that they wouldnt have in some so called Islamic countries. I have been to a few and although i wasnt wearing a headscarf, i was quite modestly dressed, but was treated like a sexual object and peice of meat to such a shocking extent that i barely left the hotel. It was so vile. Ive never been treated like that in the UK, no matter what ive worn. There are 2 sides to this coin.

You're right that this problem isnt restricted only to western countries. its essentially borne out of a lack of a clear moral compass and a code of ethics and rules which dictate ur life. if u dont have a set of ethics which u try to live ur life by, ur essentially wandering aimlessly and making up the rules as u go along. u dont necessarily have to have a religion to have an ethical code.

as for ur second point, i think this is where self-restraint comes in. the first part of the Quranic verse which mentions hijab talks about men lowering their gaze. in an ideal islamic society, females would be drerssed in good hijab and males would manitain the hijab of their eyes and lower their gaze. in "islamic" countries where men are "deprived" of semi-naked females to lure at, they will revert their attention to any female which happens to pass by. and the solution to this is that any male who is unable to curb such desirtes should seek marriage. im not sure whether u were suggesting that the ideal solution is promoting less covering so that men become less sexually depraved and therefore less likely to harrass a female?

Quisant, on 11 March 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

I agree with Ruqaya's Amal, the sense of individual freedom available in Europe is non existent in the Middle east,

There is nobody checking how devout or pious you are,  Religion is taken to be something personal between you and God.
Most people are quite prepared to leave it at that.

i think there is something to be said for the "shame" aspect of culture. it can drive some ppl to do things "underground" but it can also shame ppl away from committing certain sins. sometimes the desire to maintain social standing is stronger than our desire to not displease Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì...thats not the way itshould be but if someone refrains from sin because they fear society's judgement, isn;t that better than them sinning because their society finds it acceptable?

Alejandro Sosa, on 11 March 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

I agree AR2011..gheera of our customs and religion is fading..the newest generations of our kids will be most affected..they're bombarded with western media 24/7 these days. Even us grown ppl have a hard time detaching ourselves from it. I love American movies for example. This is one way ppl's become accustomed to these ideas.

English ppl, I have to laugh at them sometimes. What kind of parent allows their 13 year old daughter to be roaming the streets at 10pm, let alone in makeup, short skirts, etc. The worst I saw was a dad and his girl, she was wearing see through leggings so u could see her underwear. Shameful. And as I said, our girls are going in the same direction. The fancy hijabs, OTT makeup, no restrictions...guys see this and react to it. Parents don't monitor their kids or teach them anymore. Very sad.

well, u wonder wat the coming generations have to offer. if the current 20-somethings are behaving in this way and do not change their ways, what will their children turn out like and then the following generation and so on?

to ur final point, i think males have to take responsibility too. 1. responsibility for their daughters and sisters actions but 2. responsibility for their eyes and 3. responsibility for their own actions and the way they present themselves. nowadays, the trend is towards the typical metrosexual man who has plucked his eyebrows, wearing a tight t-shirt and takes longer to get ready than the average girl.