73 replies to this topic

[aliasghark]

rehman, on 07 March 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

@aliasghark
Can you please reply to some of my questions too instead of being overly critical of someone editing their posts?

Sure, Inshallah I will reply to your questions. I had just noticed a couple of false allegations being made that I wanted to respond to.

I don't understand though, why would you ignore everything else though and state 'instead of being overly critical of someone editing their posts'? Are those couple of lines all you see from me on this thread?

[rehman]

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I don't understand though, why would you ignore everything else though and state 'instead of being overly critical of someone editing their posts'? Are those couple of lines all you see from me on this thread?

I did read all of your posts, it's that you have just been arguing with kingpomba over the "right" God. Like I just said, I have no doubt in the existence of God, I just believe that all religions are false manifestations of God designed with some kind of agenda in mind, and attempt to scare you into believing.

[aliasghark]

--

Alright so these seem to be what you're proposing as questions, from your original post (I'm trying to be constructive, I actually had to read some of your points repeatedly to get a 'question' out of each, because your writing was much closer to hate-speech than genuine questions):

1. Is it true that all non-Muslims will go to hell?
2. Can the people who lie cheat, but still call themselves Muslims, go to heaven?
3. Is it ok to kill someone who says anything bad about Prophets?
4. What is the justification for hijab?
5. Why is homosexuality not ok?

--

Here is my understanding (I may not be in 100% agreement with the traditional understanding of Islam, but anyway):

1. No.
2. Depends on the magnitude of the crimes; if vices weigh more than virtues, no. If virtues are greater, yes.
3. No.
4. Respect, modesty, and understanding between genders, reduction of crime against women.
5. Similar reasoning to why incest (between a grown up and consenting brother and sister for example) is not ok.

--

Can I ask you a question rehman? Is there anything that we say here that can convince you to reverse your decision? Or have you decided on it once and for all?

This will help me decide how much time and energy I should be spending on this thread.

[Jihadi]

as a revert all i can tell you is this, is it really worth everything you know and have then knowing your in the path of the slaves and servants of Allah swt that one day you would be thanking him that he had guided you, it seems as you been and had been with other none muslims and you got into liking their social lifes, if you only knew how much i wished i would of had been born in a muslim family and been a muslim since i was a kid, but  until  my 23 year of life i embraced islam thanks to Allah swt alhamdulillah, i realize that everything in this life is not worth having nothing but instead rather being near to Allah swt and living in our real life in jannah, if you choose the life of a kafir  then thats your choice but remeber that Allah brings others to him who love him and praise him, in this life either you choose the right path or the wrong path, and you will never ever find any other religion better and so pure then islam, inshallah at the end we all return to him and shall be question for everything, Forgive me if i offended you in any way i hope that Allah swt forgives you and guides you back to the truthful path inshallah

Edited by Jihadi, 07 March 2012 - 04:57 PM.

[rehman]

@ aliasghark
You say no it's not true that all non-Muslims will go to hell, when the Quran clearly states they will. I quoted the relevant verse in one of my last couple of posts. This is the problem I have seen with a lot of Muslims I have had this conversation with. They will fully support Islam but when they see something obviously wrong with it, they will choose to ignore the actual teachings and present their own version of Islam. If the Quran says something, there is no arguing against it, am I right?
Same with question 3, it is an obligation under Shariah law to kill anyone who says anything bad about the Prophet. I just did a quick search and was unable to find any Shia source regarding the punishment for blasphemy, probably because most people decide not to publish such things and keep them hidden. I did however find plenty of Sunni sources from Bukhari/Muslim as well as in history books but I will not post them as you won't believe them anyway. It is practiced in Shia Islam as well, Ayatullah Khomeini passed a fatwa for death of Salman Rushdie for his "Satanic Verses". Khomeini is supposed to be one of the greatest Shia scholars of all time and is said to have been in direct contact with Imam Mahdi, I'm sure he knew what he was doing when he passed that fatwa.
Apostacy most definitely carries the death penalty, and this one is in the Quran itself:
They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper. (4:89)
This is also followed in Shia Islam and is in Khomeini's books. I can post it here for you if that Quranic verse isn't convincing enough.
Again regarding Hijab, just read my last few comments. I know the purpose of Hijab. I just don't see why it is an obligation, and why the punishment for not wearing Hijab is greater than any possible consequence in this world.
Comparing homosexuality to incest is ridiculous, homosexuality is a natural state. It has not been proven to be, but if it were a human choice, it wouldn't have been observed in animals. Its some sort of genetic mutation, hence natural.

If someone can give me a logical explanation to all my problems with Islam then sure, I would love to go back. Trust me on this, I still haven't told my family and don't plan on it because it might literally kill my parents, but I would love to be convinced to go back if it didn't make me feel like I was living in chains anymore. However I don't think there is any explanation, I've thought about these questions time and time again and have spent plenty of time researching them but I can't find the answer I'm looking for. It's surprising that even though you are unable to answer most of my questions, it doesn't have any effect on your own faith. Religion has really done its job well on you. It's all in the Quran or well-known authentic Ahadith, there's no arguing over it then.
I'll list my actual questions for you in a format that might be clearer to you or anyone else who thinks they have answers for me:
1) Why are all non-Muslims deserving of hell? (It has already been established that they are all going to hell according to the Quran)
2) Doesn't being born to a Muslim family give one a huge unfair advantage over those who are not? (Please don't tell me that Allah provides equal opportunity to everyone and all that, I've heard it thousands of times. If it were true, the number of converts would be the same as the number of natural born Muslims)
3) Why is apostacy and blasphemy punishable by death?
4) Why is Hijab an obligation that carries such a severe penalty, more severe than any consequence of not wearing Hijab? (Just explain to me how the punishment is justified, I already know the purpose of Hijab)
5) How does Islam give equal opportunity to men and women when there are so many restrictions on women? Read my first post for elaboration. If men are the reason women are under threat, then shouldn't men be the ones we should placing restrictions on? Don't give me the age old "women's duties are at home", this no longer applies today.
6) Why is it wrong to shake hands with a woman? Does Islamic logic state that this eventually leads to illegitimate sex?
7) Why are women not allowed to leave their husband for more than 3 days, and why is it an obligation for them to have sex with their husband when he wants it, even if she doesn't? Why don't men carry any such obligation on their wives?

@Jihadi
Good on you for converting, and I'm not going to say you made the wrong decision. Personally I would have felt that way too if I had somehow found the reason to actually go to Islam myself instead of having it enforced on me throughout my childhood up to this day.

[iDevonian]

Yea, this statement just about sums it up.  Agreed. However there are pros to religion that cant be ignored.  And for that, make sure you understand fully what you are trying to "free" people from.  Some people may not be in position for such a thing.

rehman, on 05 March 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

To me, religion is more of a culture than an obligation. Islam has taught me not to drink for example, and I still choose not to. But then again, that's just the right decision, even alcoholics admit alcohol isn't a good thing. Islam didn't come with any 'miracle revelations' or anything like that, it's all just common sense jumbled up with some violent [Edited Out] that's supposed to scare people into believing.
I'm not really expecting any convincing or logical replies here, I've had this discussion before many times with my Muslim friends and its always the same bigoted magical blinded by faith replies. I just thought there might be more learned people here. That, and maybe I can free some other locked up soul who has never learned to trust logic and reason over something that's been passed on to them through generations of ignorance.

And heres the catch.  If you understand the true origins of Islam, then you will understand exactly why it appears the way it does.

Edited by iDevonian, 07 March 2012 - 07:15 PM.

[MysticKnight]

rehman, on 07 March 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper. (4:89)

Look at the next verse:

ÅöáøóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó íóÕöáõæäó Åöáóìٰ
ÅöáøóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó íóÕöáõæäó Åöáóìٰ Þóæúãò Èóíúäóßõãú æóÈóíúäóåõãú ãöíËóÇÞñ Ãóæú ÌóÇÁõæßõãú ÍóÕöÑóÊú ÕõÏõæÑõåõãú Ãóäú íõÞóÇÊöáõæßõãú Ãóæú íõÞóÇÊöáõæÇ Þóæúãóåõãú ۚ æóáóæú ÔóÇÁó Çááøóåõ áóÓóáøóØóåõãú Úóáóíúßõãú ÝóáóÞóÇÊóáõæßõãú ۚ ÝóÅöäö ÇÚúÊóÒóáõæßõãú Ýóáóãú íõÞóÇÊöáõæßõãú æóÃóáúÞóæúÇ Åöáóíúßõãõ ÇáÓøóáóãó ÝóãóÇ ÌóÚóáó Çááøóåõ áóßõãú Úóáóíúåöãú ÓóÈöíáðÇ {90}[Shakir 4:90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

The verse no compulsion in religion can be interpreted that no one can be forced to be religious or believe in religion consciously, and can be argued for. But look at this verse and it's clear.

Those whom were to be killed were those whom wanted to fight Muslims, they were in war, so those renegading and going back with the enemy were to be killed. However it says if they withdraw from you and offer you peace, you have no way against them. This shows apostates were not to be killed.

Why does the apostacy rule exist? Well same reason stoning exists while Quran has lashing, because Muslims tend to value hadiths over Quran contrary to the claim they check hadiths with Quran.

However when I was Muslim, I didn't believe in either stoning or apostacy. This is not the only verse, there is other verses that state you are only to be killed for killing another life or doing Fasad in the earth. Yet adultery and apostasy both are given the death penatly.

Quran does promise disbelievers and misguided hell.  It's not that "good" people are to be punished, it's that disbelievers and misguided are unjust from the point of view of Islam.

[rehman]

Quote

However there are pros to religion that cant be ignored. And for that, make sure you understand fully what you are trying to "free" people from. Some people may not be in position for such a thing.

I've mentioned that in my first post, there are pros to religion but they are all (or the vast majority of them) based on natural human morals. Like be kind to to your parents, don't backbite, don't drink or do drugs etc. These are all great things that I hope to carry throughout my life as a deist/agnostic atheist/whatever. Religion just adds the element of fear of retribution to force one into doing them. This may be a good thing when applied to things above, but for some of Islam's rule like shaking a woman's hands or only being allowed to eat Halal food etc, it felt like I wasn't living the life I wanted, but what some imaginary entity wants for me. This is why I say I am now "free" from these things.

Quote

Those whom were to be killed were those whom wanted to fight Muslims, they were in war, so those renegading and going back with the enemy were to be killed. However it says if they withdraw from you and offer you peace, you have no way against them. This shows apostates were not to be killed.

I do understand that these punishments may or may not have direct roots in the Quran, but then the Quran doesn't contain many of the obligations placed on Muslims. The importance of the Quran is that it is undeniable, because it is the direct word of God. Thanks for showing me this verse, looks like I was misled by the source I got it from. However, apostacy DOES carry the death penalty in practice, even in Shia Islam. This is according to the rulings of all Maraajeh, who Shia Muslims are also obligated to follow. So even if Allah hasn't directly commanded it, it's still an accepted part of Islam.

Quote

Quran does promise disbelievers and misguided hell. It's not that "good" people are to be punished, it's that disbelievers and misguided are unjust from the point of view of Islam.

Exactly. A disbeliever can't possibly be good enough for heaven because Islamic logic states that it is only possible to be "good" if you are a Muslim.

[MysticKnight]

rehman, on 07 March 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

I do understand that these punishments may or may not have direct roots in the Quran, but then the Quran doesn't contain many of the obligations placed on Muslims. The importance of the Quran is that it is undeniable, because it is the direct word of God. Thanks for showing me this verse, looks like I was misled by the source I got it from. However, apostacy DOES carry the death penalty in practice, even in Shia Islam. This is according to the rulings of all Maraajeh, who Shia Muslims are also obligated to follow. So even if Allah hasn't directly commanded it, it's still an accepted part of Islam.

Sure but if Quran says otherwise, it shouldn't be a reason to leave Islam.

Quote

Exactly. A disbeliever can't possibly be good enough for heaven because Islamic logic states that it is only possible to be "good" if you are a Muslim.

This is an issue that bothered me for a while.

[rehman]

Quote

Sure but if Quran says otherwise, it shouldn't be a reason to leave Islam.

Unfortunately that's not how it works. Ask any Muslim and they'll tell you it's just as important to follow the maraajeh as it is to follow the Quran. They come hand in hand, you're not a Muslim if you follow one and don't follow the other. Not to mention that the punishment for apostacy wasn't the only problem I had. Women's rights in Islam is what concerns me the most and the Quran is just as cruel in that respect as any Hadith or other teaching on the subject.

[zeinab94]

rehman, on 07 March 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Imam Mahdi will come with 313 generals, and 10,000 people under each general, which if you do the math is just over 3 million people. This is an obviously small minority. I don't get where you are getting the rest of your info about Christians being in the Imam's army. What I had always heard as a Muslim was that as soon as he comes, he will mass murder all non-believers (but first he'll ask them to convert, if they don't then he'll start slaughtering them). He will also kill every Muslim over the age of 20 who doesn't know properly the rules of Islam. This is what my dad told me when he wanted me to read the law books, I would love it if you could prove that this is false.


Again, this is what you have probably been told to believe. As kingpomba quoted before me,
And whoever inequitably seeks for himself as a religion other than Islam, then it will never be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter (he) will be among the losers. How does Allah guide a people who have disbelieved after their belief, and bore witness that the Messenger is true, and the supreme evidences came to them? And Allah does not guide the unjust people. Those will have their recompense in (that there will rest) on them the curse of Allah and of the Angels and of mankind all together, Eternally (abiding) therein. The torment will not be lightened for them, and they will not be respited. (3:85-88)
Emphasis on NOTHING other than Islam will be accepted. If there is some other verse somewhere else that says otherwise, then that is proof of self-contradiction in the Quran.


Exactly, its their choice and it should be their choice, just as you CHOOSE to wear Hijab. My problem is why it is an obligation. Do you not know what Allah will do to these women for CHOOSING not to wear Hijab? That's equivalent to saying "Hey, I heard your wallet might get stolen. Here, take this lucky rabbit's foot... or else I'll shoot you. In the leg. In a dark alleyway. And watch you bleed to death. But only because I love you."


lol, I'm talking about the Quran. The Quran mentions inanimate objects and animals talking, another thing most Islamic scholars will choose not to tell you about. The thing on facebook was just an example to show how blind religion makes you.

Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant said: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving. And (Solomon) smiled, laughing at her speech, and said: My Lord, ... (27:18-19)

Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly." (41:11)

Indeed, we offered the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, and they declined to bear it and feared it; but man [undertook to] bear it. Indeed, he was unjust and ignorant. (33:72)

So not only do inanimate objects talk, they also have feelings. How adorable. All of my points are directly either from the Quran or otherwise well-known parts of Islam, which being an ex-Muslim I've heard many times myself, and I'm sure you have too. I'm not talking about anything hidden in some dark corners somewhere.

well at the time Imam Mahdi ATF comes out,, there wont be as much people as there r now,, so that soldiers would be alot,,
313 is an interesting number because not only would it be the number for Imam Mahdi ATF,, but it was for other prophets before him who had won battles with 313 soilders,, which include:
1) Talut the king of Israel,, from Prophet Samual,, (against goliath) they came towards hot dessert,, Allah told them that there test is to not drink from the water thats coming,, and only 313 people listened from 80.000,,
2) Rasulillah PBUH,, his first battle,, he asked who is ready to fight,, Magdad the companion said that he will follow him because he was ordered by Allah to love him,, the people with Rasullillah made up to 313 soliders,,
that day belonged to Imam Ali AS,, because 70 people were killed in the opposite side and 35 from the sword of Imam Ali AS,, and he was very young,,

Allah tells us not to kill the innocent,, WHY would he bring out a Imam that would kill randoms ?? that makes no sense,, thats y people of other religions will join his army,, because at that time the world will be filled with Injustice and tyranny,, the Imam will appear on earth so he can bring Justice and Equality,,

Everyone will be judged by their book when Imam Mahdi ATF comes out,, because Imam Ali AS used to judge everyone with their book as well,,

when ur trying to get info from the Quran u have to refer to the whole Surah,, because u have seriously just taken a quote from it,, read it again and then come back to me on what it means,,
every Ayah has a story to it,, watch those lectures that give an interpretation to Surahs,, like sayed ammar nakshawani,,

also not everything is to be taken literally,, for eg Allah,, it mentions in the Quran how he sits on a throne and he has hands and eyes etc,, but it doesnt mean he realy has those things,, how can God have human features,, u get what i mean,, u have to study the Quran in order to know the message behind it properly,,

and Wallah iv never heard any of the stuff ur mentioning now,, and im a born Muslim,, (actually every human is born muslim,, haha)

u still on think of Hijab as a physical thing,, its not only a physical thing,, dont u understand that,,

[Pascal]

Jihadi, on 07 March 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

as a revert all i can tell you is this, is it really worth everything you know and have then knowing your in the path of the slaves and servants of Allah swt that one day you would be thanking him that he had guided you, it seems as you been and had been with other none muslims and you got into liking their social lifes, if you only knew how much i wished i would of had been born in a muslim family and been a muslim since i was a kid, but  until  my 23 year of life i embraced islam thanks to Allah swt alhamdulillah, i realize that everything in this life is not worth having nothing but instead rather being near to Allah swt and living in our real life in jannah, if you choose the life of a kafir  then thats your choice but remeber that Allah brings others to him who love him and praise him,

Thats an opinion though isn't it and thats your opinon too. You already believe in Islam so of course you have to like it and you have to mentally justify these things to yourself or you would just implode...

Jihadi, on 07 March 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

in this life either you choose the right path or the wrong path, and you will never ever find any other religion better and so pure then islam,

How are we to establish its actually the right path though? There are about 7 billion people in the world..1 billion muslims... 85% of people aren't muslims. If it is so right and so much better, whats with all the other people not believing it? Its unreasonable to assume they're no less smart or reasonable or look for truth any less than you do and yet, they reached a different outcome..

I've read large portions of the Quran and i know about the muslim faith and i dont find it particularly enthralling. So, its not as if everyone out there isn't a muslim simply because they haven't read the Quran or just haven't heard about it.

The quran tells you its the right path but thats comming from the book that tells you to believe...in the book...

It's like me claiming to be a world famous billionaire chess player who wrestles bears. Your only proof for this? A book i wrote telling you i was a world famous billionaire chess player who wrestles bears and the book tells you to believe the book...

See the issue?

Jihadi, on 07 March 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

inshallah at the end we all return to him and shall be question for everything,

Seems like its kind of game over for the polytheists though..

Yes... I am editing my post... i wanted to add more... i really dont care what anyone in particular thinks about it though...and no im not changing the above at all..so deal with it and get onto the actual content..

Theres a serious lack of textual criticism and scholarship of the actual Quran as a literary and historical document, this is what also holds us back. Compared to the scholarly criticism of the texts of the Quran and bible its seriously aenemic. If you're (as in anyone reading) not sure what this means - https://en.wikipedia...tual_criticism

Thats probably more important for the bible though, since people think the quran has never differed, so - https://en.wikipedia...oldid=477378105

MysticKnight, on 07 March 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Why does the apostacy rule exist? Well same reason stoning exists while Quran has lashing, because Muslims tend to value hadiths over Quran contrary to the claim they check hadiths with Quran.

I've always had trouble understanding why muslims use the hadith, it seems like it was just something that was added along later, originally there was just the Quran afterall.

God is perfect, right? So, he cant make an imperfect holy book. The quran is the work of God. All muslims assure us that the quran we have today has not been corrupted. If it is the perfect book, it should tell us everything about how to be Muslims and it should contain everything we need, being perfect.

The fact that the Quran even mentions the potential to aborrogate verses implies God might need or might want to change it as some place (or you know... a human for political reasons...you can quite clearly see the difference between the meccan and medinan suras and how they relate to the political enviroment muhammed was in), If God needs to change it, it implies he didnt do a very good job in the first place. So, either the Quran isn't perfect...God isn't perfect...or its partially human written.

Maybe using the Hadith just for interpretation is ok but a lot of muslims do things in the hadith that aren't explicitly in the Quran.

Theres no circumcision in the quran (God created us how he intended anyway...if he wanted us to be circumcised he would of made us born like that, God is perfect as well, So, he must of created us perfectly as he intented, to modify our body is to slap God in the face), Theres no Mahdi or dajjal either.

This might help - https://en.wikipedia...icism_of_Hadith

MysticKnight, on 07 March 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Quran does promise disbelievers and misguided hell.  It's not that "good" people are to be punished, it's that disbelievers and misguided are unjust from the point of view of Islam.

What happens if youre a good person and just happen to be a hindu or an atheist...

Edited by kingpomba, 07 March 2012 - 11:45 PM.

[rehman]

Quote

when ur trying to get info from the Quran u have to refer to the whole Surah,, because u have seriously just taken a quote from it,, read it again and then come back to me on what it means,,

The Ayahs I quoted (3:85-88) are 100% clear in their message. "And whoever inequitably seeks for himself as a religion other than Islam, then it will never be accepted from him". I read a few of the verses directly preceding and following them this time, and this couldn't be clearer in its message. "Whoever" means anyone, not just a specific group of people.

I can't comment on Imam Mehdi because I don't want to speak without authentic sources which I don't have in this case (except from the Bihar al-Anwar, but I know that book isn't very reliable and Shias only use it when there is a logical sounding Hadith in it). However your claims that he will have people in his army of other religions are just as baseless. I'm telling you what I heard during lectures from scholars when I was a Muslim, it was always that Imam Mehdi will come with a vengeance, he will kill all the unbelievers or make them convert, there will only be a handful of people by his side etc etc. I've never heard of the other religions part, that is ridiculous Islam would never allow that.
In Islamic logic "someone's book" is only looked at if it says Muslim on the cover.
And the Quran gives physical characteristics to Allah? I hadn't heard that one before but if it does then its further proof of Quran's self-contradiction. There aren't supposed to be any figures of speech in the Quran, its all facts.
What, you never heard of mountains, ants and clouds talking and having feelings? Well you better believe it now because its right there in the Quran.

It doesn't matter if Hijab is a physical or spiritual thing to YOU, what matters is that it is your own choice that YOU made. Other women obviously choose not to like wearing Hijab. Here is an authentic Hadith of what will happen to women for doing different deeds:

"Through reliable chains it is narrated from Imam Zada Abdul Azim from Imam Muhammad Taqi (a.s.) that Amirul Momineen (a.s.) and his wife, Fatima, one day visited the Prophet and found him weeping profusely. May my parents be your sacrifice! said Ali; what is the cause of your grief, O Messenger of Allah (S)? He replied, On the night I was carried to heaven I saw a number of the women of my community in great torment, and it is for them I weep.
I saw a woman suspended by her hair, and her brain was boiling from excessive heat. Another was suspended by her tongue, and liquid from the fountain of melted copper in Hell was poured down her throat; and another was hung up by her breasts. I saw a woman eating the flesh of her own body, which fell from her, and fire meanwhile was flaming under her.
I saw a woman bound hand and foot, and assailed on all sides by serpents and scorpions. Another, blind, deaf and dumb, was encased in a coffin of fire, and her brain was dropping out at her nostrils, and her body was falling to pieces from gangrene and leprosy. I saw a woman suspended by her feet in a furnace of fire; the flesh of another was being cut off on all sides with scissors of fire.
I saw a woman whose face and hands were burning, and who ate her own entrails. I saw a woman with the head of a hog and the body of an ass, tormented in a million different ways. I saw a woman in the form of a dog, and fire was poured through her body, issuing at her mouth, and the angels were beating her with maces of iron.
Fatima exclaimed, O beloved of my soul, and light of my eyes, tell me what they had done and what they had been that the Almighty Allah inflicted on them such horrible torments. The Prophet replied, “Dearest daughter, the woman suspended by her hair, did not conceal it from the view of men. The one suspended by her tongue, tormented her husband with that member.
The one hung up by her breasts would not acknowledge her husband’s conjugal rights. She suspended by her feet, was in the habit of going out without her husband’s consent. The one that ate her own flesh, adorned her person for the view of those who had no right to see her. The woman bound hand and foot, neglected to wash herself and cleanse her garments. She did not perform the necessary and obligatory ablutions, and held prayer of light account.
The one blind, deaf and dumb, bore children from adulterous intercourse, and caused her husband to bear the burden of their support. She whose flesh was cut off with fiery scissors, showed herself to incite men to desire her. The woman who was burning and ate her own entrails, was a procuress, and brought together wicked men and women."
(Hayat u Qulub Vol. 2)

From now on I will only be on Shiachat for an hour a day, I spent too much time on this today and wasn't able to get all my other work done, so I'm sorry if I take a while to reply.

[Pascal]

MysticKnight, on 07 March 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Why does the apostacy rule exist? Well same reason stoning exists while Quran has lashing, because Muslims tend to value hadiths over Quran contrary to the claim they check hadiths with Quran.

I've always had trouble understanding why muslims use the hadith, it seems like it was just something that was added along later, originally there was just the Quran afterall.

God is perfect, right? So, he cant make an imperfect holy book. The quran is the work of God. All muslims assure us that the quran we have today has not been corrupted. If it is the perfect book, it should tell us everything about how to be Muslims and it should contain everything we need, being perfect.

The fact that the Quran even mentions the potential to aborrogate verses implies God might need or might want to change it as some place (or you know... a human for political reasons...you can quite clearly see the difference between the meccan and medinan suras and how they relate to the political enviroment muhammed was in), If God needs to change it, it implies he didnt do a very good job in the first place. So, either the Quran isn't perfect...God isn't perfect...or its partially human written.

Maybe using the Hadith just for interpretation is ok but a lot of muslims do things in the hadith that aren't explicitly in the Quran.

Theres no circumcision in the quran (God created us how he intended anyway...if he wanted us to be circumcised he would of made us born like that, God is perfect as well, So, he must of created us perfectly as he intented, to modify our body is to slap God in the face), Theres no Mahdi or dajjal either.

This might help - https://en.wikipedia...icism_of_Hadith

MysticKnight, on 07 March 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Quran does promise disbelievers and misguided hell.  It's not that "good" people are to be punished, it's that disbelievers and misguided are unjust from the point of view of Islam.

What happens if youre a good person and just happen to be a hindu or an atheist...

zeinab94, on 07 March 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

Allah tells us not to kill the innocent,,

Yet....its perfectly fine for God to kill the innocent?

Read here and onwards... really... http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2340466

zeinab94, on 07 March 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

WHY would he bring out a Imam that would kill randoms ?? that makes no sense,, thats y people of other religions will join his army,, because at that time the world will be filled with Injustice and tyranny,, the Imam will appear on earth so he can bring Justice and Equality,,

Everyone will be judged by their book when Imam Mahdi ATF comes out,, because Imam Ali AS used to judge everyone with their book as well,,

Technically, If the Jews and Christians are following their books right, they won't believe Mahdi is the saviour and wont join him. Infact, they might even fight against him. They're just following their books like you suggest but they're fighting against the imams...

zeinab94, on 07 March 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

also not everything is to be taken literally,, for eg Allah,, it mentions in the Quran how he sits on a throne and he has hands and eyes etc,, but it doesnt mean he realy has those things,, how can God have human features,, u get what i mean,, u have to study the Quran in order to know the message behind it properly,,

If you except somethings aren't literal, how do you decide what is and what isnt literal anymore?

Everything in the Quran besides the fact its from God could be non-literal. Maybe hell is non-literal, maybe eating halal is non-literal... maybe jinn or angels are non-literal... Where does it stop?

zeinab94, on 07 March 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

u still on think of Hijab as a physical thing,, its not only a physical thing,, dont u understand that,,

Even if its not physical we have no right to tell someone else how to act based on a religion they dont personally believe in. Like in Iran, everyone has to wear the hijab whether they like it or not, its force upon them.

If it isnt forced upon them and its their choice its fine. If you go to hell for not covering your hair thats seriously remiss of God though...there is much worse things you could do.. In addition what is modest varies wildly, if you see my earlier post. Certain clothing accepted as normal in the west would get a lot of attention elsewhere but its perfectly normal here.

[MysticKnight]

kingpomba, on 07 March 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

What happens if youre a good person and just happen to be a hindu or an atheist...

You should be a searcher for truth and find the truth, that being Islam, and ofcourse Shiism version, and ofcourse 12ver version of that. Easy. Anyone whom doesn't obviously was not sincere to the truth.

[aliasghark]

Ok, I got it rehman.

You say you're here to ask questions, and then refuse to believe our clear answers (you stick to your own weird beliefs).

You say you believe in God, then use the phrase 'imaginary entity'.

It's clear to me that you're not genuinely seeking answers. You're here to spread hate and FUD about Islam in whatever way you can, including using dubious sources and making baseless claims up on your own.

Any further time I will spend on this thread will not be to try winning you back (it is very striking to see that you have so little knowledge of Islam that you were not a good Muslim even if you claim to have been a Muslim in the first place), but to clear some of your and your associate kingpomba's FUD that I can.

[aliasghark]

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Comparing homosexuality to incest is ridiculous, homosexuality is a natural state. It has not been proven to be

Why aren't they comparable? You can't imagine members of the same family having those kind of feelings? Your stance sounds hypocritical.

[aliasghark]

--

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Why is it wrong to shake hands with a woman?

Not all shaking hands with the opposite gender is universally condemned in Islam. There are solutions. You should try learning more about this issue.

You talked of chains. Would you feel liberated if you could touch any person of the opposite gender in any way you like? You have a draw a line somewhere.

Where would you draw it? Some would say there is no need for physical contact to be able to interact effectively with people of the opposite gender. Others like you say shaking hands is ok. Would you say kissing is also ok? Seems like it's becoming the norm these days. What is your line?

Islam makes it easy for many people - you don't have to figure everything out yourself. There are very well thought-out, easy to follow guidelines available, if you don't want to spend time thinking about each activity's cost, consequences, benefits, risks, implications, etc.

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Does Islamic logic state that this eventually leads to illegitimate sex?

One can imagine the state of mind that led to this statement - very inexperienced and immature.

Can there not be any other reasons why physical contact with the opposite gender is risky, for instance maintaining marital harmony?

rehman, on 07 March 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Personally I would have felt that way too if I had somehow found the reason to actually go to Islam myself instead of having it enforced on me throughout my childhood up to this day.

Poor reason to reject Islam (or anything else), but this is an actual problem. Some families really need to let go and stop being so controlling, or we'll risk having people like rehman who (claims to) leave the religion just because he wasn't told he was free to make up his own mind.

rehman, on 07 March 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

While continuing my own research on this, I've found a few more ridiculous laws in Islam. Note that these were all taken from a Sunni source titled "Prohibitions that are taken too lightly", not some atheist website. I do understand this is a Shia forum, but I'm sure most of these are generally accepted by all sects.

...

EDIT: Please note that these are all just additional things I found interesting, if you don't believe Sunni sources at all then just ignore this whole post. I don't want this being used to judge my sources for my original concerns which I listed in my last post.

This is a textbook example of spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. You first make allegations about all of Islam based on fringe obscurities, and then you claim it was just some innocent little research, to be ignored if it's not true.

[rehman]

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You say you're here to ask questions, and then refuse to believe our clear answers (you stick to your own weird beliefs).

You say you believe in God, then use the phrase 'imaginary entity'.

What clear answers are you talking about? The only person I've got answers from after your last post was zeinab94, and she herself isn't sure about what she's talking about. That looks like a clear answer to all my questions to you?

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including using dubious sources and making baseless claims up on your own.

Care to elaborate? What dubious source are you talking about? Hayat ul Quloob? Imam Khomeini? Those are both 2 of the most authentic Shia sources that you'd confidently use in say some Shia/Sunni debate but when I use the same sources they are 'dubious'? You are obviously trying to to dodge questions you have no answers for.

I used 'imaginary entity' for the God I was made to believe in as a Muslim. My own belief of God is one that doesn't impose any ridiculous obligations on me.

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Not all shaking hands with the opposite gender is universally condemned in Islam. There are solutions. You should try learning more about this issue.

Why are you so hesitant in posting said solutions? I've looked long enough, there is absolutely no shaking hands with women in Islam, this is an established fact any real Muslim would hold firm about.
Here's an example of a typical everyday situation: I go to the bank to get a new credit card (true story happened a couple days ago). The agent you have an appointment with is a female (who may or may not be at work with her husband's permission), and she puts her hand out to greet you. You naturally shake it, so as not to seem rude. You go about your business and will probably never see each other again. Little did you know, you have invoked the wrath of God.
There is definitely a line between what kind of touching may be sexually arousing and what may not be, and shaking hands is on the furthest of the non-sexual side. Tell me this- have you ever shook hands with a woman before? Probably not judging by what you've just said. Therefore you have no idea how ridiculous of a rule this is. And its not even about any sort of "line" if you really think about it. Shaking hands has been a natural human way of greeting each other for centuries.

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One can imagine the state of mind that led to this statement - very inexperienced and immature.

Can there not be any other reasons why physical contact with the opposite gender is risky, for instance maintaining marital harmony?

That is exactly the statement "scholars" used to explain to me why it wasn't permitted. It is what you implied by speaking of "the line". It's exactly why this rule exists. Maintaining marital harmony? You're saying you would get suspicious about your wife if you saw her shaking hands with someone? What, would you beat her for it? Only enough so she doesn't get bruised?

[aliasghark]

rehman, on 07 March 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

only being allowed to eat Halal food etc, it felt like I wasn't living the life I wanted, but what some imaginary entity wants for me

Aside from the fact that you're unsure whether God exists or not, what is the problem you find with 'halal' food? Is it the prohibition on animal torture? Do you think humans should be able to torture and kill animals in whatever way they like?

Halal or zabiha meat is that which has been slaughtered in a humane way. You are not allowed to kill one animal in front of other similar animals. You have to give it water to drink. You cannot start tearing it apart while it's still alive. After slitting the throat partially you have to wait till the animal dies on its own, and suffers less pain. If these and other basic rules of compassion are not followed (like in large-scale industries in the west) you don't eat the meat.

Two of my non-Muslim acquaintances in New York found out about this concept and they decided to only buy zabiha ('halal') meat in future. One of them had their family go vegetarian a long time ago because of the horrific ways in which animals are treated in their local industries, and after getting to know about this Islamic product they are now able to eat meat again.

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Exactly. A disbeliever can't possibly be good enough for heaven because Islamic logic states that it is only possible to be "good" if you are a Muslim.

Exactly wrong.

rehman, on 08 March 2012 - 02:09 AM, said:

...

You had said you spent enough time on this site. So you're not going away after all, right? You want to spend as much time here as you can to try to mislead about Islam, and drive fear and hatred into the minds of people.

[aliasghark]

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What clear answers are you talking about?

Sigh. One only needs to go back a few hours in this thread to find out. It's clear you're trying to escape a rational discussion while you create doubt, as you had admitted.

Quote

Care to elaborate? What dubious source are you talking about?

Your ridiculous sources are clear for discerning people to see, in the above posts. Why don't you respond rationally to my actual questions?

Quote

I've looked long enough, there is absolutely no shaking hands with women in Islam,

The fact that you couldn't find an easy-to-find thing doesn't mean it does not exist. I'm not wasting time explaining things to you in further detail, I'm just reminding people who you're trying to mislead of it.

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this is an established fact any real Muslim would hold firm about.

So at least two kinds of Muslims huh. Define 'real Muslim'. Hopefully the definition doesn't amount to a circular 'what rehman says it is'.

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You naturally shake it, so as not to seem rude.

Or you say 'As a Muslim, I don't touch unrelated people of the opposite gender' politely. Give people some credit, they will understand and in fact often appreciate it. They won't get upset or go mad, just because you didn't touch their hands.

[rehman]

I just deleted my post from the Sunni site. I was certain that at least a few of those are also beliefs in Shia Islam though. There just aren't enough Shia websites quoting from Al-Kaafi, because Ahadith are a bigger part of Sunni Muslims' beliefs.

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Halal or zabiha meat is that which has been slaughtered in a humane way. You are not allowed to kill one animal in front of other similar animals. You have to give it water to drink. You cannot start tearing it apart while it's still alive. After slitting the throat partially you have to wait till the animal dies on its own, and suffers less pain. If these and other basic rules of compassion are not followed (like in large-scale industries in the west) you don't eat the meat.

You seriously think people follow all these rules in large-scale Halal farms? The only reason you know "large-scale industries in the west" treat animals like that is because there have been documentaries made on them. Who knows what goes on in Australia where a lot of the halal meat I got came from. Large-scale properly halal slaughtering would be extremely time consuming and cost-inefficient.

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Exactly wrong.

Instead of making vague statements, provide some explanation for your claim. In this case, disprove the verse I've been quoting, or prove that I have taken it out of context.

Quote

You had said you spent enough time on this site. So you're not going away after all, right? You want to spend as much time here as you can to try to mislead about Islam, and drive fear and hatred into the minds of people.

I'm working on the computer, I have this thread open in one tab. This is a huge deal for me, leaving a religion you've believed in for 20+ years isn't easy. Especially considering the effects it will have on my family. It's all I've been thinking of lately and it's getting in the way of everything. I'll definitely try to spend less time on this, but don't make false assumptions if I don't.

[rehman]

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Sigh. One only needs to go back a few hours in this thread to find out. It's clear you're trying to escape a rational discussion while you create doubt, as you had admitted.

Where?

Quote

Your ridiculous sources are clear for discerning people to see, in the above posts. Why don't you respond rationally to my actual questions?

Please state said 'ridiculous source'. As far as I know, I have not used a single source throughout this argument that didn't use a respectable Shia source. I deleted my post that sourced Sahih Muslim, but that wasn't my original argument anyway. (EDIT: ambiguity in statement, you know what I mean. I needed to add this edit here because I know how critical you are of someone editing their posts)

Quote

The fact that you couldn't find an easy-to-find thing doesn't mean it does not exist. I'm not wasting time explaining things to you in further detail, I'm just reminding people who you're trying to mislead of it.

You're getting more and more dodgy with every statement here. If it's that easy to find, just post it what's stopping you? Imagine the loads of ajr you will get for helping someone revert back to Islam.

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So at least two kinds of Muslims huh. Define 'real Muslim'. Hopefully the definition doesn't amount to a circular 'what rehman says it is'.

Yes, there's your type of Muslim who rejects any beliefs with obvious flaws in them, like the all non-Muslims will go to the Quran point. It's right there in front of you, yet all you do is keep saying "no" without saying why not because you can't find a reason but keep telling yourself there is, you just don't want to look for it. Then there's the "real" Muslims that hold firm to whatever's in the Quran and otherwise a part of Islam, and try to defend it by giving their own philosophical views on it.

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Or you say 'As a Muslim, I don't touch unrelated people of the opposite gender' politely. Give people some credit, they will understand and in fact often appreciate it. They won't get upset or go mad, just because you didn't touch their hands.

With all the oppression on Muslim women that the western media shows (I'm not saying any of that is true because I know its not), that would only reaffirm their belief of the complete separation of genders in Islam hence putting them at an even greater disadvantage when it comes to choice of religion (which was another of my points that you have yet to provide justification for). They obviously won't say that to you, and no they won't go home and look it up on the Internet.

Edited by rehman, 08 March 2012 - 03:04 AM.

[aliasghark]

rehman, on 08 March 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

You seriously think people follow all these rules in large-scale Halal farms?

Yet more malice and deceit.

We were talking about halal food. You complained that Islam only allows halal food, and when I pointed out what a kind thing halal meat is, your retort is 'it's probably not halal'.

You're fooling nobody. We're talking about halal meat, not other kinds of meat. Is it not possible for there to be halal farms?

(by the way, for others: more generally, fruits and vegetables are halal, rice, wheat, milk, etc are halal - the word 'halal' means permissible, it's not only about humane treatment of animals, and is not some extremely difficult thing to live by as rehman tries to mislead into believing)

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Instead of making vague statements, provide some explanation for your claim. In this case, disprove the verse I've been quoting, or prove that I have taken it out of context.

So that you can just come back a few minutes later and refuse to accept it, and call those who try to clarify things not 'real Muslims' who don't know about their own religion? Like I said, I'm not here for you anymore. People here do know that all non-Muslims are not evil or deserving of hell.

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I'm working on the computer, I have this thread open in one tab. This is a huge deal for me, leaving a religion you've believed in for 20+ years isn't easy. Especially considering the effects it will have on my family. It's all I've been thinking of lately and it's getting in the way of everything. I'll definitely try to spend less time on this, but don't make false assumptions if I don't.

Yeah, the above versus "From now on I will only be on Shiachat for an hour a day, I spent too much time on this today and wasn't able to get all my other work done, so I'm sorry if I take a while to reply." Don't worry, you're only taking a few seconds or minutes to reply and dodging rational discussion.

And I'm not making assumptions, you said so yourself in your initial posts.

[zeinab94]

rehman, on 07 March 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

The Ayahs I quoted (3:85-88) are 100% clear in their message. "And whoever inequitably seeks for himself as a religion other than Islam, then it will never be accepted from him". I read a few of the verses directly preceding and following them this time, and this couldn't be clearer in its message. "Whoever" means anyone, not just a specific group of people.

I can't comment on Imam Mehdi because I don't want to speak without authentic sources which I don't have in this case (except from the Bihar al-Anwar, but I know that book isn't very reliable and Shias only use it when there is a logical sounding Hadith in it). However your claims that he will have people in his army of other religions are just as baseless. I'm telling you what I heard during lectures from scholars when I was a Muslim, it was always that Imam Mehdi will come with a vengeance, he will kill all the unbelievers or make them convert, there will only be a handful of people by his side etc etc. I've never heard of the other religions part, that is ridiculous Islam would never allow that.
In Islamic logic "someone's book" is only looked at if it says Muslim on the cover.
And the Quran gives physical characteristics to Allah? I hadn't heard that one before but if it does then its further proof of Quran's self-contradiction. There aren't supposed to be any figures of speech in the Quran, its all facts.
What, you never heard of mountains, ants and clouds talking and having feelings? Well you better believe it now because its right there in the Quran.

It doesn't matter if Hijab is a physical or spiritual thing to YOU, what matters is that it is your own choice that YOU made. Other women obviously choose not to like wearing Hijab. Here is an authentic Hadith of what will happen to women for doing different deeds:

"Through reliable chains it is narrated from Imam Zada Abdul Azim from Imam Muhammad Taqi (a.s.) that Amirul Momineen (a.s.) and his wife, Fatima, one day visited the Prophet and found him weeping profusely. May my parents be your sacrifice! said Ali; what is the cause of your grief, O Messenger of Allah (S)? He replied, On the night I was carried to heaven I saw a number of the women of my community in great torment, and it is for them I weep.
I saw a woman suspended by her hair, and her brain was boiling from excessive heat. Another was suspended by her tongue, and liquid from the fountain of melted copper in Hell was poured down her throat; and another was hung up by her breasts. I saw a woman eating the flesh of her own body, which fell from her, and fire meanwhile was flaming under her.
I saw a woman bound hand and foot, and assailed on all sides by serpents and scorpions. Another, blind, deaf and dumb, was encased in a coffin of fire, and her brain was dropping out at her nostrils, and her body was falling to pieces from gangrene and leprosy. I saw a woman suspended by her feet in a furnace of fire; the flesh of another was being cut off on all sides with scissors of fire.
I saw a woman whose face and hands were burning, and who ate her own entrails. I saw a woman with the head of a hog and the body of an ass, tormented in a million different ways. I saw a woman in the form of a dog, and fire was poured through her body, issuing at her mouth, and the angels were beating her with maces of iron.
Fatima exclaimed, O beloved of my soul, and light of my eyes, tell me what they had done and what they had been that the Almighty Allah inflicted on them such horrible torments. The Prophet replied, “Dearest daughter, the woman suspended by her hair, did not conceal it from the view of men. The one suspended by her tongue, tormented her husband with that member.
The one hung up by her breasts would not acknowledge her husband’s conjugal rights. She suspended by her feet, was in the habit of going out without her husband’s consent. The one that ate her own flesh, adorned her person for the view of those who had no right to see her. The woman bound hand and foot, neglected to wash herself and cleanse her garments. She did not perform the necessary and obligatory ablutions, and held prayer of light account.
The one blind, deaf and dumb, bore children from adulterous intercourse, and caused her husband to bear the burden of their support. She whose flesh was cut off with fiery scissors, showed herself to incite men to desire her. The woman who was burning and ate her own entrails, was a procuress, and brought together wicked men and women."
(Hayat u Qulub Vol. 2)

From now on I will only be on Shiachat for an hour a day, I spent too much time on this today and wasn't able to get all my other work done, so I'm sorry if I take a while to reply.

i just wanted to show u this verse "

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and

work

righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

." (2:62)

Righteous action in life involves the following of all the fundermental values as given in the Quran,, in verse (2:177)

as for verse (3.85),, regarding this verse is that Islam is not a religion in the conventional sense but a complete,, and an universal way of life of the whole of mankind,, as such we cannot say that Islam is one of the many religions that exist today,, it is a way of life as outlines in the Quran and fully beneficial to mankind,,
who ever submits to the will of Allah ad follows His guidance is the following "Islam",, there r many Christians who dont believe in Jesus to be the son of god and at the same time fulfil the requirements as given in Verse (2.62),,
Similarly there r Jews who meet the same requirements,, and no doubt there r people of other faiths who also do the same,, for eg following the same fundermental principles as the Quran commands,,

in Islam we also believe that animals r important,, so in verse (27:18-19) there is a story to it,, Prophet Soloman AS was walking,, there was ants on the ground,, the main ant was telling the rest of the ants to go into their whole so the Prophet doesnt step on them,, then the Prophet smilled on what he saw,, then he tells Allah to order him to be grateful for what he has,,

actually i have heard of those verses but u said it in a way that was so different than it really is,,
let me give u a example,, in Ayut al Kursi,, (2:255),, Allah says that his Throne includes the heavens and the earth,,
would u think that God sits on a throne in the clouds ?? WHY would God create his creations like himself ?? dont u think there would be a limit ??



a man asked Imam Ali AS why we cant see God,, the Imam told the man to look at the sun,, the man turned his head,, the Imam then replied to him and said if u cant handle seeing Gods creation,, How can u see the creator ??

think about it,, life isnt black and white,,

as for the story u quoted,, i have heard similar stories,, Allah created us and He wants us to cover our beauty,, you NEED to understand Islam better to understand that story,, Quran tells us that he made us Equal,, u have to also know that this life is a trial,,