57 replies to this topic

[Ameen]

Haydar Husayn, on 17 March 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Ameen, can you explain why we don't have a single hadith from the Imams telling us to recite the third shahada in the adhan?

Very simple and straight forward. Out of the 12 Imaams 11 have been. Have you read their life story??? Do you know how they have passed their time??? Do you know how they've been treated??? Through persecution! The Imaams, their family, relatives, friends, followers and supporters have been persecuted all their lives. The 12th went into hiding because of this treatment towards them by the will, wish and desire of Allah. Since the 12th has been in ocultation has the persecution stopped regarding Syeds and Shias??? You know the answer very well. Anyways! Lets get to the points. Look, i'm not here to cause disturbance or division. Just here to discuss and debate with a positive attitude and a pleasent manner. Just in search for the truth and I believe that people deserve the truth and should know the right reasons behind issues. I'm not saying look here the third term is compulsory [Wajib] and that's it. That's not my tone. As you can clearly see that was brothers tone, regarding his belief and point of view, not mine. The issue here is crystal clear, no gimmicks! Either the third Shahada is a part of the Ezaan and the Iqamah or it isn't full stop. No excuses, no twist and turns, no its and buts but just cut and dried. This is exactly my point. It's not part of the Ezaan and Iqamah but this and but that is what makes ones position weak. If its not part of it then it's an addition which should be haram. Allowing an addition opens the doors for others to add things freely as they wish and one can simply and easily justify them. You tell me!

what is above sense and logic??? What is above your own ability to think, investigate and examine??? I believe in Ijtihad and I respect all Mujtahids from the bottom of my heart. I believe Ijtihad is the substitute for Imaamath and Mujtahid is for an Imaam. This is the next best thing which the Shia need to rely on about matters and affairs regarding their daily lives. Imaamath is connected to infallibility and an Imaam is infallible. So blind obedience would work here and is a must. But is Ijtihad connected to infallibility and is a Mujtahid infallible??? You know very well that the answer is NO! Therefore blind obedience wouldn't work here and such obedience, in every single matter regarding somebody who isn't infallible [Masoom], is not allowed, not Jaiz. Blind obedience [Andi-Tabedari] of [Gher-e-Masoom] isn't permitted. So turning around and saying, the Maraje said this and the Maraje said that and accepting every single thing with your eyes closed, well you tell me! I'm not against Taqleed but in favour of it. I'm not against any Mujtahid, neither am I in the position to be but it's blind obedience, which is my point. I don't think one needs to compromise on their core belief, faith and principals regarding unity between Muslims [Itehad-Bainal-Muslimeen] or one should hesitate when it comes to their belief and faith what ever the consequences. I will continue this and issues regarding the third Shahada. Listen, I sincerely appologise if I have offended anybody or their belief, faith, point of view etc. That's not me.

Edited by Ameen, 17 March 2012 - 08:08 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

Ameen, on 17 March 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Either the third Shahada is a part of the Ezaan and the Iqamah or it isn't full stop. No excuses, no twist and turns, no its and buts but just cut and dried. This is exactly my point. It's not part of the Ezaan and Iqamah but this and but that is what makes ones position weak. If its not part of it then it's an addition which should be haram. Allowing an addition opens the doors for others to add things freely as they wish and one can simply and easily justify them. You tell me!

I agree with you. Either it is or it isn't. And since we don't have a single indication from the Imams that it is part of the adhan, then it isn't. Unless of course you believe the Imams always tought an incorrect adhan, and left it to us to use our own judgement to guess what the correct adhan should be.

[Ameen]

Haydar Husayn, on 18 March 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

I agree with you. Either it is or it isn't. And since we don't have a single indication from the Imams that it is part of the adhan, then it isn't. Unless of course you believe the Imams always tought an incorrect adhan, and left it to us to use our own judgement to guess what the correct adhan should be.

Why don't you tell me which Ezaan the Imaams taught. There isn't a single indication from the Imaams that one shouldn't say the third Shahadah either. Let me break it down for you. If Barak Obama stood up and said " I witness or I testify that Barak Obama is the president of the United states "  or just say it without the testify and witness bit, then people would think he is mad. But if others said it then it wouldn't sound so weared and strange. Firstly why would the third Shahada be said during the Prophet's [pbuh] time??? The Prophet [pbuh] is still in office therefore still incharge. The third Shahada comes into effect after the Prophet [pbuh], when Hazrath Ali [ra] took over. Secondly the third Shahada is not just about Hazrath Ali [ra] but it's about testifying and being a witness towards this new form of leadership which has come into effect, Imaamath ofcourse. It's the acceptance and declaration regarding this new form of leadership, Imaamath. The Shia do believe that leadership after Muhammad [pbuh] is linked to Allah. So anything linked to Allah one becomes a  witness to and testifies. Ali is the Wali of Allah, Wali meaning Allah's agent, guide, sign, spokesman etc you name it. What ever suits you. Shia believe that Ali is the Wali of Allah, they also believe Ali is chosen by Allah as the leader of the Muslims and the successor to the Prophet [pbuh], and the true guide regarding Quran and Sunnah. So where is the declaration when we have the acceptance??? Where is the testimony???

Now about the remaining 11 Imaams, did they say the third Shahada during their Ezaan and Iqamah??? My answer is no! You know why??? Because the third Shahada doesn't apply to them, because they are and linked to the third Shahada. They are the third Shahada and an absolute part of it. The third Shahada is the declaration to the acceptance of Imaamath and the Imaam isn't one but 12. As soon as the Prophet [pbuh] died, his prayers and funeral wasn't done and over yet when some people took matters into their own hands. Reference; Sakeefa. Tell me was the decision of Sakeefa not forced upon the Ahlul Baith and their family, relatives, friends, followers and supporters??? Was extreme violence not used to uphold this decision??? And ever since where Ahlul Baith and their Shia not under persecution all the way through. Did things not worsen during the Umayad dynasty [rule]??? Did they not even worsen during the Abbasid dynasty [rule]. It doesn't matter who was in power, didn't they use brutal measures to squash and crunch the opposition [Ahlul Baith and their Shia]??? Despite knowing all the terrible and horrible facts one still questions was the third Shahada used in the Ezaan and Iqamah during the time of the Imaams???

Since when did any of the Imaams ever come into power??? Since when did any of the Imaams become Khaleefatul Muslimeen and governed freely and openly, with vast majority of the Muslims behind them??? Hazrath Ali [as] was the only Imaam who became Khalifa but how was his reign??? He faced rebellion as soon as he came into power, references; the battles of Jamal, safeen, nehrawan etc. Be honest with yourself, when did Hazrath Ali [as] ever get a free and open chance to govern??? What ever little time and chance Hazrath Ali [as] got the rest of the Imaams didn't even come any close to that. Despite knowing all these facts one still questions if the third Shahada was said in the Ezaan and Iqamah during the Imaams time??? Those people who came into power, straight after the Prophet [pbuh] didn't and wouldn't allow anything that went against them. Anyone who stood up firmly and said " Ali is the Wali of Allah and the Maula of the Momins " faced torture and murder. Things got worse for Ahlul Baith and their followers [Shias] as time went on.

To be continued!

[Vigilare]

So we have hadiths from the Imams a.s. telling their companions how to pray, how to do wudhoo, when to break fast, to pay khums etc - all at odds with the way the general Muslim population was doing it, but we don't have anything about the third shahada because of persecution?

Edited by Vigilare, 19 March 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[Ameen]

Vigilare, on 19 March 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

So we have hadiths from the Imams a.s. telling their companions how to pray, how to do wudhoo, when to break fast, to pay khums etc - all at odds with the way the general Muslim population was doing it, but we don't have anything about the third shahada because of persecution?

Do Shia make a fuss on how to pray??? Do Shia make a fuss on how to do Wuzu??? Do Shia make a fuss on how to break their fast??? Do Shia make a fuss on how to pay Khums??? Etc! When you say the Ezaan with the third Shahada that is a big fuss and a very loud one, which can be heard through out the neighbourhood in the olden days and through out the globe nowa days, because of modern technology. Now tell me how does one know who is a Shia and who is a sunni??? If both stick with the two Shahada then how can you tell who is a Shia and who is a Sunni??? What are you going to do??? Just hang around and wait till they do their Wuzu and say their prayers infront of you??? Till they break their fast or pay their Khums infront of you ??? Tell me is their any single narration from the Imaams that [Heya'alla-Kheril-Amal] is part of the Ezaan and the Iqamah??? Or does the same apply here that you can say it without the intention that, it is part of the Ezaan and Iqamah??? You've just focused on persecution but disregarded everything else. Shia are at odds with the Muslims regarding all the things you've mentioned but nowa days not the early days. Taqeya became an ultimate option for the Syed and Shia at that time, due to the persecution they faced based on utter brutality. Why do we have Syed Sunnis these days??? Do you think they left Shiaism and turned to Sunnism by research according to their own will??? Tell me how many do you know who have done that??? These Syed Sunnis of nowa days are the offsprings of those who went into Taqeya due to that persecution. Because they had no choice. Either differ on all odds with the Muslims at that time and face persecution or do not differ at all and go with the flow and save yourselves from persecution. Consider all the facts relevant rather than just grabbing hold of one thing that suits you. To be continued!

Edited by Ameen, 21 March 2012 - 06:37 AM.

[Ameen]

?Continued! When you accept that Allah is the creator of this universe and is the only one who is capable of being worshipped, then what do you do??? Obviously declare it by going for the declaration. How do you do that??? By making a testimony, by testifying that I bear witness that there is nobody worthy of worship except Allah. When you accept that Muhammad [pbuh] is Allah's Messenger, then what do you do??? Absolutely the same as above. I don't have to repeat it do I??? Now when you believe that leadership after Muhammad [pbuh] is from Allah and is connected with Allah and his Messenger, this leadership is an absolute part of religion and is also a pillar of your faith [ Imaamath], then what do you do??? Sit around and start looking for narrations and Hadiths??? Start questioning yourself that why this isn't said and that isn't said directly in the Quran??? There are lots and lots of things which aren't said directly in the Quran and one doesn't seem to bother to ponder over those. Quran is Kulliyaath, the large print and Sunnath is Juzziyaath, the small print. Both are baseless and pointless without the other. You can't disregard one from the other. To be continued!

[Vigilare]

There's quite a lot of assumptions in there, but I'll wait for the other part before saying anything else

[Ameen]

Vigilare, on 23 March 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

There's quite a lot of assumptions in there, but I'll wait for the other part before saying anything else

Assumptions??? Ok! If there are any explanations for those assumptions, then i would definately like to here them. But apart from assumptions there is also reality and facts in there, which you've probably missed or just disregarded. Anyways, the other part is on its way. Discussion as such takes time, especially gathering all the bits and pieces, when there are so many of them. This is just the build up. References as evidence and proof will come later, step by step.