36 replies to this topic

[placid]

To continue with Martin Luther:

With Martin Luther leading the people in following the Scriptures, he established the renewed or revived Church, --- in spite of opposition and threats on his life. --- And this was called ‘The Lutheran Church.’

Other Christians were suffering as well and some were ready to take up arms in defense of their faith, but Martin Luther said, “That would defeat the purpose of a Spiritual revival.” --- It says in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:
9. “Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God.” --- And Romans 10:
15. “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things.”

--- As violence fosters the attitude of hatred and murder, --- it was not to be the action of an Evangelical Church, --- though this had become the practice of the Roman Catholic Church against individual believers and Churches.  

About this same time in other countries, --- and perhaps because of his bold move to reform the Church, there were revivals, and a returning to the Scriptures. --- Because of distance these groups formed their own Church bodies and took different names than ‘The Lutheran Church,’ but they were Bible believing Churches, --- so, basically, this is where other denominations that we have today started. --- Some denominations took their name from a word in Scripture, like the Presbyterians , from ‘The Presbytery’ --- or the Baptists for their form of Baptism by immersion, --- or the Pentecostals from the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

These denominations are not in disharmony with others, but ideally are more like the pattern of the original ‘Tribes of Israel.’ --- They have their own leadership, but they believe in Jesus and the Gospel, and are guided by the Holy Spirit of God.

Martin Luther translated the Bible to German for a better understanding than from the Latin, which had been the Bible of the Church from 400 to the 1500’s when the Douay Bible was translated from Latin to English, --- and shortly thereafter, King James of England commissioned 47 Bible Scholars and linguists to translate from the most ancient copies of the Greek manuscripts, --- also with reference to previous translations, produced the King James Version.

--- This has been the most widely used Bible in the world. --- The New King James is an update that changes from the Old English to modern English. --- The Scriptures were also quickly translated into the languages of many countries so that they could understand the Scriptures, --- and they continue to be translated.

Martin Luther’s “Reformation” changed the world through the revival of Christianity. --- The Catholic Church has also been revived, but not to the extent that they have returned to the Scriptural pattern with God as the Divine Leader, --- and not a hierarchy of men. --- However, people are saved by faith, not by their denomination, so the believing Catholics, who know the Lord, and receive God’s Holy Spirit, can be saved.

Martin Luther was the leader of what is called “The Protestant Reformation.”
--- When Satan cannot defeat a cause he tries hard to malign it and make it sound negative. --- Often you hear the expression Protestants and Catholics, and it sounds like the Protestants are against the Catholics.
--- If I say, “What are the ‘pros and cons’ of a discussion?"
You would say, “Well, the ‘pros’ are what is ‘for’ something, --- and the ‘cons’ are what is ‘against’ it.”

Martin Luther brought the ‘pros’ to the Church, his 95 suggested changes to bring the Church back to faith in God. --- but he was rejected, --- so, he enacted these ‘pros,’ or ‘positive things' in an independent body of believers.
--- They were called --- PRO-testants, meaning ‘what they were for.’

Today when you hear the word ‘protest’ you think of it as negative, as some demonstration against something.
--- See how the meaning of this word has been changed? --- (I guess that was the best that Satan could do to cause division.)

So when you see ‘Protestants and Catholics,’ --- Think of it this way: The pro-testants are for something that the Catholics were against.
I prefer to call the Churches Evangelical because ‘The Evangel’ means the same as ‘The Gospel,’ --- the ‘Good News.’  

If Christian Churches are not Evangelical, they should be, in teaching the Gospel to their families, their children, and their friends.
This Gospel is ‘the Gospel of peace.’ --- If we know the God of Peace, then we can have the Peace of God in our hearts.

--- I want to add something that I copied from Shiachat some time ago:
Quote: Gamal Al-Banna is the brother of Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan Al-Banna. Yet, far from sharing his Islamist ideology, Gamal calls for a genuine reform within Islam, one which would favour a nuanced interpretation of the Koran.
He believes the history of Protestant reform should serve as an example to help what he calls Islam’s ‘downward spiral.’

Islamic intellectuals have an opportunity to do what ‘Martin Luther achieved for Christianity 500 years ago,’ he says.

It is in his office in Abbasiya in central Cairo, surrounded by 13,000 books, that Banna welcomes the views of the religious and the secular.

Banna calls for a return to basics.
‘Let’s go back to the Koran, only the Koran but all of the Koran,’ he says adding that one must not deny the book’s contradictions, or its difficulties of interpretation. (End of quote).


Placid

[hasanhh]

Christianlady, on 01 March 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Hello Imaan=faith,

Actually, the main beliefs of Christians are what Peter, the leader of the 12 apostles Jesus chose, said after the disciples received the Holy Spirit who Jesus promised. Peter gives the whole gospel (good news) in the following account:

  

Peace and God bless you

Well, for one, my god is the Real (al-Haq) god, the God of Noah(swt)

Second, the "main beliefs of Christians" are not from Peter, but Paul.

My personal opinion of what Paul is, is what he wrote in Romans 3, second paragraph: "do evil so god can judge the World" in the Douay translation.

[Izrail]

hasanhh, on 09 April 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

My personal opinion of what Paul is, is what he wrote in Romans 3, second paragraph: "do evil so god can judge the World" in the Douay translation.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but I sincerely hope your opinion wasn't based on that incorrect translation. Judging by the "do evil so..." part, I believe you meant this verse, Romans 3 verse 8? If thats not the correct verse or the correct translation(Douay) enlighten me, please.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And not rather (as we are slandered, and as some affirm that we say) let us do evil, that there may come good? whose damnation is just.

He condemns the "end justifies the means" way of thinking that detractors thrust upon him and confirms that those that do evil no matter the intent are rightfully punished. I hope that clears things up abit for you.

[Psyche24]

imaan=faith, on 01 March 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

salam Alaikum
believing in Trinity and being Jesus the son of God is the main belief of all Christians but it's a few years that another sect is appeared that in order to show they are like Muslims and so they make Muslims convert to Christianity, they say Jesus was not God. so this sect which is mostly active in north of America (Canada) and Iran is called "Jehovah's witnesses".
They say Jesus was a human and a messenger of God.
that's your answer I think.

wassalam

Those Christians were doing taqiyya - giving a taste of our own medicine.

[Son of Placid]

Psyche24, on 13 October 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Those Christians were doing taqiyya - giving a taste of our own medicine.

All too often I'll be reading along in good english and come to a grinding halt at the sight of a word that I wouldn't even know how to pronounce. I appreciate the explanation.

The JWs are not exactly new. I haven't looked at their views in a long time now. I grew up with a few around me, and met a few at the door over the last "few" years.

If a "few years" means concieved around 1900, then yeah.<----not me tho, I'm only half a few years in that case.

I don't remember all the ins n outs but I remember a conversation with my friends father that ended with us agreeing we'd see each other in heaven, although, I don't really believe we'll recognize anyone in heaven. I don't believe heaven will be on earth either. Once humans are done with earth...
The ones that came to the door left with a "I'll get back to you on that" but was last I saw of them, and that was years ago. Bet you'd like to know what I said...

On topic...

I always had trouble with those that were Jesus this, and Jesus that. I always wondered why if Jesus was God Almighty why did we have to call Him Jesus? Where was Jesus in the OT? I think I found Him but don't have a complete argument yet.

Edited by Son of Placid, 14 October 2012 - 11:52 PM.

[Psyche24]

Son of Placid, on 14 October 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

I always had trouble with those that were Jesus this, and Jesus that. I always wondered why if Jesus was God Almighty why did we have to call Him Jesus? Where was Jesus in the OT? I think I found Him but don't have a complete argument yet.

If Jesus is God, then why do Christians call him "Jesus"?
First of all, Christians believe that God is three persons in one being. They call the second person "Jesus" which in Hebrew ("Yeshua") means "He saves". This name sums up the mission of Christ - to save humanity from their sins.

In regards to finding references to Jesus in the Old Testament, try Genesis 18. The three persons who met Abraham are believed to be the Holy Trinity. This is an example of a Christophany.

[placid]

Hi Psyche,

Quote from Post 31:
In regards to finding references to Jesus in the Old Testament, try Genesis 18. The three persons who met Abraham are believed to be the Holy Trinity. This is an example of a Christophany.

Response: --- You know, I have never heard that. --- And, of course, it says plainly that two of them were angels, who were simply servants.
The Lord however could not have been Almighty God, because He has never left heaven. --- It could not have been Jesus because He was not born on earth yet.
--- And since the Holy Spirit of God is Spirit and can’t be seen, --- the Lord in Genesis 18 had to have been the Manifestation of God that was with Him ‘in the beginning.’ --- As it says in John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
² He was in the beginning with God.
³ All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
⁴ In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
⁵ And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

So it says that Almighty God ‘created’ all things through Him, the Word (Logos)
--- There are a number of other “Appearances” of this Personage from heaven as well as this one in Gen 18.
--- Like the Person of Melchizedec in Genesis 14:18, who is mentioned again in Hebrews 7:
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
² to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”
³ without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
--- And like the Commander of the Lord’s army In Joshua 5:13-15.
--- And the fourth Person in the fiery furnace in Daniel 3:25.

--- And finally like this One in John 1:14, who was called “The Word” --- that took on the form of flesh in the Person of Jesus.
This is the One who was prophesied in Isaiah 7:
14   Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
And the fulfillment is in Matthew 1:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

--- (And does it not say different places in the Quran that Jesus came as a Sign?) --- As in Surah 3:
50 “I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."


Placid

[placid]

Hi Psyche,

Actually, there are identifications of Jesus in the OT, in Prophecies, like this one in Isaiah 61:
1 “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
² To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,

--- While this was spoken by the Prophet, we know it refers to someone else because it capitalizes Me, which is not done with men, so there is a NT fulfillment, --- And it is found in Luke 4:
¹⁶ So He (Jesus) came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
¹⁷ And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
¹⁸ “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
¹⁹ To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”^[k]
20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
²¹ And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
²² So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”

[CLynn]

shiaaliibrahim, on 05 April 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

Brother, thank you for providing the details.  That's very important for many people who want to do specific research on this topic.

Wa salaam

Greetings shiaaliibrahim,

Just one thing, I disagree with Placid...
the trinity doctrine is very much scriptural and comes directly from the words of Jesus.
Many of the other denominations like to say it was a creation of the Roman church but if you read the scriptures, if you read the words of Jesus, the Truth is there in His own words.

What I see is that all people of all faiths have their own individual understanding of that faith.  It is between them and God obviously.

Salaam,
CLynn

[Lanatin]

Psyche24, on 13 October 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Those Christians were doing taqiyya - giving a taste of our own medicine.

Yeah and that's exactly what taqiyya is all about....can't believe i thought this guy was a genuine muslim.

[placid]

Hi Clynn,

Quote: the trinity doctrine is very much scriptural and comes directly from the words of Jesus.
--- if you read the words of Jesus, the Truth is there in His own words.


Can you give these words of Jesus that you are referring to, so that the readers will know what we are talking about?

[Son of Placid]

hasanhh, on 09 April 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Well, for one, my god is the Real (al-Haq) god, the God of Noah(swt)

Second, the "main beliefs of Christians" are not from Peter, but Paul.

My personal opinion of what Paul is, is what he wrote in Romans 3, second paragraph: "do evil so god can judge the World" in the Douay translation.

Lol, this is one of those " I have found the worst of the worst possible possibilities and have chosen to believe it because...uh...I've been taught to believe the worst of Paul.

My Muslim scholar friends don't feel the same. Matter of fact, one that I highly respect (W/masters degree n all) said he was "warming up to Paul". Not because he was ever considering Christianity but because he read Paul's letters without predjudice.

Maybe time to turn the funnel the other way when reading. Look thru the small end and see how truth expands.