36 replies to this topic

[Inception]

Assalaam Aleykom

I noticed that we assume that any christian person believes that Jesus was god (astaghfer Allah suhanah)..
But I met few christians (iraqis, and one chinese)...that said he wasn't god but he was special indeed, so he had "miraculous powers"..

in the west, that's the belief of the church, but I think (have met only 2) some christians realize how faulty that is so they don't beleive in it anymore, but still consider themselves as "believing christians"..

So I just need to understand this..any konwledge/experience??

Thanx

[Shia_Debater]

One guy in my class told me he doesn't believe that Jesus is God or the son of God

[imaan=faith]

Inception, on 01 March 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

Assalaam Aleykom

I noticed that we assume that any christian person believes that Jesus was god (astaghfer Allah suhanah)..
But I met few christians (iraqis, and one chinese)...that said he wasn't god but he was special indeed, so he had "miraculous powers"..

in the west, that's the belief of the church, but I think (have met only 2) some christians realize how faulty that is so they don't beleive in it anymore, but still consider themselves as "believing christians"..

So I just need to understa nd this..any konwledge/experience??

Thanx

salam Alaikum
believing in Trinity and being Jesus the son of God is the main belief of all Christians but it's a few years that another sect is appeared that in order to show they are like Muslims and so they make Muslims convert to Christianity, they say Jesus was not God. so this sect which is mostly active in north of America (Canada) and Iran is called "Jehovah's witnesses".
They say Jesus was a human and a messenger of God.
that's your answer I think.

wassalam

[Christianlady]

imaan=faith, on 01 March 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

salam Alaikum
believing in Trinity and being Jesus the son of God is the main belief of all Christians but it's a few years that another sect is appeared that in order to show they are like Muslims and so they make Muslims convert to Christianity, they say Jesus was not God. so this sect which is mostly active in north of America (Canada) and Iran is called "Jehovah's witnesses".
They say Jesus was a human and a messenger of God.
that's your answer I think.

wassalam

Hello Imaan=faith,

Actually, the main beliefs of Christians are what Peter, the leader of the 12 apostles Jesus chose, said after the disciples received the Holy Spirit who Jesus promised. Peter gives the whole gospel (good news) in the following account:

Acts 2 (NIV) - I boldened some.

" ¹⁴ Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. ¹⁵ These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! ¹⁶ No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
¹⁷ “‘In the last days, God says,
   I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
   your young men will see visions,
   your old men will dream dreams.
¹⁸ Even on my servants, both men and women,
   I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
   and they will prophesy.
¹⁹ I will show wonders in the heavens above
   and signs on the earth below,
   blood and fire and billows of smoke.
²⁰ The sun will be turned to darkness
   and the moon to blood
   before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
²¹ And everyone who calls
   on the name of the Lord will be saved.’^[Joel 2:28-32^]
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. ²³ This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,^[Or of those not having the law (that is, Gentiles)^] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. ²⁴ But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. ²⁵ David said about him:
   “‘I saw the Lord always before me.
   Because he is at my right hand,
   I will not be shaken.
²⁶ Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
   my body also will rest in hope,
²⁷ because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
   you will not let your holy one see decay.
²⁸ You have made known to me the paths of life;
   you will fill me with joy in your presence.’Psalm 16:8-11 (see Septuagint)^]
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. ³⁰ But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. ³¹ Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. ³² God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. ³³ Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. ³⁴ For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
   “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
   “Sit at my right hand
³⁵ until I make your enemies
   a footstool for your feet.”’Psalm 110:1
³⁶ “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
³⁷ When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
³⁸ Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ³⁹ The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
⁴⁰ With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” ⁴¹ Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day."

The Trinity doctrine is not specifically mentioned in the Bible. The reason many Christians believe that God is Triune (which does not mean three gods but rather three in One God) is because of the different ways God relates to people, according to our beliefs.

Concerning Jesus being the Son of God, there are places in the Tanakh and in the New Testament that show that Jesus is the Son of God. This, however, is a spiritual term, as well as Jesus' birth is in fact a miracle, since Jesus' mother was a virgin. She did not have sexual relations at all in order to conceive Jesus. Rather, God miraculously placed Jesus in her womb as a little baby (whether in the fetus stage or not, God knows) through His Holy Spirit, NOT through any sexual means.

About Christians, Christians are very diverse as to their beliefs concerning the Trinity doctrine and concerning who Jesus is. However, many Christians do believe that Jesus is the following:
1. The Son of the Most High (God) - Psalm 2, Isaiah 9:6-7, Hosea 11:1, Matthew 1:20-23, Matthew 16:13-16, Luke 1:26-38, ...
2. The prophet like Moses -  Deuteronomy 18, John 1:43-50, John 5:16-47, Acts 3:11-28
3. The Messiah, the Anointed One who God promised to be on the throne of King David - 2 Samuel 7, Psalm 89, Matthew 1, Mark 12, Luke 1-2, Luke 20, Luke 24, and so on.
There are other titles that Christians believe Jesus has as well. Concerning the belief that Jesus is God, that is a part of believing that Jesus is the Word of God (John 1) who existed as God's Living Word through whom God created the earth, the Word being One with God and being God.  

Peace and God bless you

[Inception]

imaan=faith, on 01 March 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

salam Alaikum believing in Trinity and being Jesus the son of God is the main belief of all Christians but it's a few years that another sect is appeared that in order to show they are like Muslims and so they make Muslims convert to Christianity, they say Jesus was not God. so this sect which is mostly active in north of America (Canada) and Iran is called "Jehovah's witnesses". They say Jesus was a human and a messenger of God. that's your answer I think. wassalam

Assalaam aleykom

Thank you sheikh Iman, I'm not sure if they are jehovah's witness..they didn't tell me..they just said christian..but if I asked about more details, I got confused because I didn't understand exactly what they meant..so it's like no he's not god, but still saying somethings that makes Jesus more than just human being..

[Inception]

Christianlady, on 01 March 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

About Christians, Christians are very diverse as to their beliefs concerning the Trinity doctrine and concerning who Jesus is. However, many Christians do believe that Jesus is the following:
1. The Son of the Most High (God) - Psalm 2, Isaiah 9:6-7, Hosea 11:1, Matthew 1:20-23, Matthew 16:13-16, Luke 1:26-38, ...
2. The prophet like Moses -  Deuteronomy 18, John 1:43-50, John 5:16-47, Acts 3:11-28
3. The Messiah, the Anointed One who God promised to be on the throne of King David - 2 Samuel 7, Psalm 89, Matthew 1, Mark 12, Luke 1-2, Luke 20, Luke 24, and so on.
There are other titles that Christians believe Jesus has as well. Concerning the belief that Jesus is God, that is a part of believing that Jesus is the Word of God (John 1) who existed as God's Living Word through whom God created the earth, the Word being One with God and being God.  

Peace and God bless you

Hello ChristianLady

thanx for the response I will comment on this part, and will add few questions later..

Do you mean that every christian believes in all 3 statements at the same time, or that some believe in no1, others in 2, others in 2 AND 3 and so on??

From the reply I understood that Jesus was seen as prophet first, but then after he was crusified and raised again, he became Lord and Messiah. what does Lord mean here?

Concerning the belief that Jesus is God, that is a part of believing that Jesus is the Word of God (John 1) who existed as God's Living Word through whom God created the earth, the Word being One with God and being God.  

For me, its saying Jesus being god because he's the word of God..is that what you meant here?

[imaan=faith]

Hello sister

well interesting, from one side you say Trinity is as because of different ways God relates to people (which means God is one, but someone calls him son, someone calls him father ,etc) and from the other side you say Jesus was the son of God (which means one Father who has one Son)!

meanwhile about Marry and Jesus' birth, we have have same belief according to our holy book.
but here is a point that as Jesus was born in this way, why do you persist to say his father was Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus?

if we say his father was Joseph who took care of him it's ok, but in the bible it says Joseph is the one who gave birth to Jesus [Mathew:1:16]!
and another problem is that if we reject he is his father, then we've to deny that Jesus is in generation of David !

May God Bless you

Edited by imaan=faith, 02 March 2012 - 12:54 AM.

[Pascal]

It's a fundamental belief of Christianity, if you dont believe this you're outside the scope of what is called christianity. It doesn't mean you're wrong or anything like that but its outside what is defined as Christianity.

The nicene creed is one of the most widely used expressions and summations of faith, it does a good job of stating the basic beliefs (sort of like 5 pillars in a way):

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic  and apostolic Church. (not as in the catholic church headed by the pope, in this case it means "universal church" in)
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen

If you don't believe he was the saviour, the son of mary, the son of God, died for our sins on the cross and rose from the dead, then you're really outside Christianity. Thats the centeral tenent of it...

Its sort of equivalent to saying you believe in Islam but you dont believe God spoke to muhammed or something like that, the impact of not believing jesus is the son of God is that big for christianity.

Might want to start here - https://en.wikipedia...stianity#Creeds or just good to find out more about it. Perhaps a good comparitive religion book might be good as well, i suggest oxford . The BBC also does a very good job of covering the basics of all the world religions, definitely worth a read - http://www.bbc.co.uk...s/christianity/ .

Better yet if you want to really get a feel for it go to a catholic mass, they read the creeds and things like that. You don't have to partcipate or anything like that, you can just watch. I went even after i was an athiest (mostly because i had to but sometime i wanted to).

Edited by kingpomba, 02 March 2012 - 06:54 AM.

[Christianlady]

Inception, on 01 March 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

Hello ChristianLady

thanx for the response I will comment on this part, and will add few questions later..

Do you mean that every christian believes in all 3 statements at the same time, or that some believe in no1, others in 2, others in 2 AND 3 and so on??

Hello Inception,

Christians are diverse. Most Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah (Christ).  It seems that Jesus being the prophet like Moses is not emphasized as much nowadays, whereas both Jesus and his chosen apostles proclaimed this fact. (Please see Luke 24:27-44, John 1:43-46, Acts 3:12-26)

Quote

From the reply I understood that Jesus was seen as prophet first, but then after he was crusified and raised again, he became Lord and Messiah. what does Lord mean here?

Lord there means Master.

Jesus was seen  a prophet yes, but he was also known by his followers as the Messiah and Son of God before he was crucified  (please see Matthew 16:13-18, John 11:17-33)

Quote

For me, its saying Jesus being god because he's the word of God..is that what you meant here?

Concerning the belief that Jesus is God, that is a part of believing that Jesus is the Word of God (John 1) who existed as God's Living Word through whom God created the earth, the Word being One with God and being God.  

John 1 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"¹ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ² He was with God in the beginning. ³ Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. ⁴ In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. ⁵ The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome^[a] it.
⁶ There was a man sent from God whose name was John. ⁷ He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. ⁸ He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
⁹ The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. ¹⁰ He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. ¹¹ He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. ¹² Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— ¹³ children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
¹⁴ The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
¹⁵ (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) ¹⁶ Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. ¹⁷ For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. ¹⁸ No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and^[Some manuscripts but the only Son, who^] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known"

Most Christians (including me) believe that God placed a part of Himself to be in human form, placing this tiny baby (whether in the fetus stage of conception or what stage exactly, only God knows) in the womb of the virgin Mary. Christians believe that God is all-powerful, that God is everywhere - with you, with me, in every country of the world, and that just as God can be everywhere at the same time, so God can make Himself to be a human in order to save mankind, while at the same time continuing to be everywhere, all powerful, and all knowing. Christians believe that God knows the past, present, and future all at the same time and His capabilities are endless. God didn't just create the earth; God created galaxies, with the earth being only a tiny planet that God created with life in what we call the Milky Way Galaxy. Most Christians (including me) believe that Jesus is the Word of God who God sent in human form who taught about his Father (God) and who obeyed the Father and healed the sick and did amazing miracles and then became the Lamb of God (sacrifice for sins - the completion of God's commands to Moses for the children of Israel to offer animal sacrifices) and God rose him from the dead, who is coming back someday!!! Some Christians (including me) believe that Jesus existed as the Living Word of God before coming to earth as a baby.

Peace and God bless you

imaan=faith, on 02 March 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Hello sister

well interesting, from one side you say Trinity is as because of different ways God relates to people (which means God is one, but someone calls him son, someone calls him father ,etc) and from the other side you say Jesus was the son of God (which means one Father who has one Son)!

Hello Imaam=faith,

The Trinity is not specifically taught in the Bible. However, Jesus being the Son of God is specifically taught in the Bible. Please see Psalm 2, Psalm 89:19-29,  Matthew 16:13-17, Luke 1:29-35, John 11:23-27)

About the term "Son of God", one needs to understand that God is not sexual. God created (most) humans to be sexual during their time on earth, but God Himself is not sexual. God created angels to not be sexual beings too. Jesus made it clear that there is no marriage, hence sex, in the resurrection of humans as well.

Matthew 22 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"²³ That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. ²⁴ “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. ²⁵ Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. ²⁶ The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. ²⁷ Finally, the woman died. ²⁸ Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
²⁹ Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.³⁰ At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.³¹ But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ³² ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’^[Exodus 3:6^]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

The term "Son of God" is a spiritual term in that God is the Spiritual Father. For example, when you hear the phrase "Founding Fathers", does this mean that George Washington, for example, is the biological father of all the people in the USA? No! However, it's a term for the people who founded the government. God, however, is our Creator. He created us both physically and spiritually. When we follow Him, Christians believe that God is indeed our Father spiritually. Jesus taught us that God is our Father too, by His grace and mercy! (See Jesus' teachings accounted in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.)

Back to the physical Creation, Adam is also considered the son of God. (Luke 3:38) Does that mean that God is sexual and was the biological father of Adam? No. God created Adam through assexual means, though He created Adam and Eve to reproduce on the earth through sexual means.

Quote

meanwhile about Marry and Jesus' birth, we have have same belief according to our holy book.
but here is a point that as Jesus was born in this way, why do you persist to say his father was Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus?

if we say his father was Joseph who took care of him it's ok, but in the bible it says Joseph is the one who gave birth to Jesus [Mathew:1:16]

and another problem is that if we reject he is his father, then we've to deny that Jesus is in generation of David !

God's promise to King David is for the Messiah (Anointed One) to be King on the throne of King David forever. Joseph is a descendant of King David and King Solomon. It is entirely possible that God used the DNA of both Joseph and Mary when He created Jesus in the womb of Mary, with no sexual union taking place!!! Nowadays, scientists can "create" in a tube a human emybryo - using eggs and sperm and manipulating them. God does not need tubes; God just says the Word, and it is done! Creating is easy for God, who is the Creator of life!!!

The Bible does not say that Joseph gave birth to Jesus (men can't give birth) but Jesus is indeed a descendant of Joseph and of Mary, even though God did a miracle when He created Jesus in the womb of Mary!!!

Christians who do not believe that God used the dna of Joseph and Mary while creating Jesus in Mary's womb believe that Jesus is of David's line anyways, because God created him to be.

Quote

May God Bless you

Peace and God bless you as well

kingpomba, on 02 March 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

It's a fundamental belief of Christianity, if you dont believe this you're outside the scope of what is called christianity. It doesn't mean you're wrong or anything like that but its outside what is defined as Christianity.

The nicene creed is one of the most widely used expressions and summations of faith, it does a good job of stating the basic beliefs (sort of like 5 pillars in a way):

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic  and apostolic Church. (not as in the catholic church headed by the pope, in this case it means "universal church" in)
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen

If you don't believe he was the saviour, the son of mary, the son of God, died for our sins on the cross and rose from the dead, then you're really outside Christianity. Thats the centeral tenent of it...

Its sort of equivalent to saying you believe in Islam but you dont believe God spoke to muhammed or something like that, the impact of not believing jesus is the son of God is that big for christianity.

Might want to start here - https://en.wikipedia...stianity#Creeds or just good to find out more about it. Perhaps a good comparitive religion book might be good as well, i suggest oxford . The BBC also does a very good job of covering the basics of all the world religions, definitely worth a read - http://www.bbc.co.uk...s/christianity/ .

Better yet if you want to really get a feel for it go to a catholic mass, they read the creeds and things like that. You don't have to partcipate or anything like that, you can just watch. I went even after i was an athiest (mostly because i had to but sometime i wanted to).

Hello KingPomba,

The best way to understand what Christians believe is to pray, asking God for wisdom, and read the Bible. I personally do not ascribe to the Nicene Creed, but to what Jesus taught, accounted in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, as well as what Peter (the leader Jesus chose of his 12 apostles) taught, accounted in Acts.

Christians are very diverse. Although most do ascribe to the Nicene Creed, others ascribe to the Apostle's Creed (which was not considered to have been written by the apostles but is more simple than the Nicene Creed) Others, like me, base their beliefs on the Bible and not on doctrines explaining the Bible. Others base their beliefs on other things.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 02 March 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[Ruq]

I'm confused about the term 'son of God'. I always thought it was just a way of saying Jesus(as) had no biological father. But i see in the 'nicene creed' that Kingpomba posted that it says 'begotten, not made'. I dont understand that. Begat is what animals and humans do to procreate, God isnt confined to a physical body so obviously doesnt do any such thing. Ive always had the feeling we all mean the same thing, but semantics get in the way, but seeng 'begotten, not made' has confused me.

Edited by ~Ruqaya's Amal~, 02 March 2012 - 12:55 PM.

[Christianlady]

~Ruqaya, on 02 March 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

I'm confused about the term 'son of God'. I always thought it was just a way of saying Jesus(as) had no biological father. But i see in the 'nicene creed' that Kingpomba posted that it says 'begotten, not made'. I dont understand that. Begat is what animals and humans do to procreate, God isnt confined to a physical body so obviously doesnt do any such thing. Ive always had the feeling we all mean the same thing, but semantics get in the way, but seeng 'begotten, not made' has confused me.

Hello Ruqaya's Amai,

When Adam is called the son of God in Luke 1, that was an expression that Adam didn't have a biological dad, but that God created him.

Concerning Jesus, Jesus being called the Son of God has 3 meanings basically.
1. Jesus was not born in the normal reproductive way, meaning his conception was not the product of sexual reproduction, but rather was a miracle of God, where God placed Jesus in Mary's womb through His Holy Spirit.
2. Son of God is also a spiritual term, showing spiritual closeness to God.
3. God promised King David that his descendant, the Anointed One, would be called His (God's) son:

2 Samuel 7 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"¹ After the king was settled in his palace and the LORD had given him rest from all his enemies around him, ² he said to Nathan the prophet, “Here I am, living in a house of cedar, while the ark of God remains in a tent.”
³ Nathan replied to the king, “Whatever you have in mind, go ahead and do it, for the LORD is with you.”
⁴ But that night the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying:
⁵ “Go and tell my servant David, ‘This is what the LORD says: Are you the one to build me a house to dwell in? ⁶ I have not dwelt in a house from the day I brought the Israelites up out of Egypt to this day. I have been moving from place to place with a tent as my dwelling. ⁷ Wherever I have moved with all the Israelites, did I ever say to any of their rulers whom I commanded to shepherd my people Israel, “Why have you not built me a house of cedar?”’
⁸ “Now then, tell my servant David, ‘This is what the LORD Almighty says: I took you from the pasture, from tending the flock, and appointed you ruler over my people Israel. ⁹ I have been with you wherever you have gone, and I have cut off all your enemies from before you. Now I will make your name great, like the names of the greatest men on earth. ¹⁰ And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore, as they did at the beginning ¹¹ and have done ever since the time I appointed leaders^[a] over my people Israel. I will also give you rest from all your enemies.
   “‘The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: ¹² When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. ¹³ He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. ¹⁴ I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. ¹⁵ But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. ¹⁶ Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me^[Some Hebrew manuscripts and Septuagint; most Hebrew manuscripts you^]; your throne will be established forever.’”
¹⁷ Nathan reported to David all the words of this entire revelation."

Psalm 2 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"² The kings of the earth rise up
   and the rulers band together
   against the LORD and against his anointed, saying,
³ “Let us break their chains
   and throw off their shackles.”
⁴ The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
   the Lord scoffs at them.
⁵ He rebukes them in his anger
   and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
⁶ “I have installed my king
   on Zion, my holy mountain.”
⁷ I will proclaim the LORD’s decree:
   He said to me, “You are my son;
   today I have become your father.
⁸ Ask me,
   and I will make the nations your inheritance,
   the ends of the earth your possession.
⁹ You will break them with a rod of iron^[b];
   you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
¹⁰ Therefore, you kings, be wise;
   be warned, you rulers of the earth.
¹¹ Serve the LORD with fear
   and celebrate his rule with trembling.
¹² Kiss his son, or he will be angry
   and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
   Blessed are all who take refuge in him."

Psalm 89 (NIV) - I boldened some.

²⁰ I have found David my servant;
   with my sacred oil I have anointed him.
²¹ My hand will sustain him;
   surely my arm will strengthen him.
²² The enemy will not get the better of him;
   the wicked will not oppress him.
²³ I will crush his foes before him
   and strike down his adversaries.
²⁴ My faithful love will be with him,
   and through my name his horn^[f] will be exalted.
²⁵ I will set his hand over the sea,
   his right hand over the rivers.
²⁶ He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father,
   my God, the Rock my Savior.’
²⁷ And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
   the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
²⁸ I will maintain my love to him forever,
   and my covenant with him will never fail.
²⁹ I will establish his line forever,
   his throne as long as the heavens endure.
³⁰ “If his sons forsake my law
   and do not follow my statutes,
³¹ if they violate my decrees
   and fail to keep my commands,
³² I will punish their sin with the rod,
   their iniquity with flogging;
³³ but I will not take my love from him,
   nor will I ever betray my faithfulness.
³⁴ I will not violate my covenant
   or alter what my lips have uttered.
³⁵ Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness—
   and I will not lie to David—
³⁶ that his line will continue forever
   and his throne endure before me like the sun;
³⁷ it will be established forever like the moon,
   the faithful witness in the sky.”

Christians believe these prophesies are fulfilled and will continue to be fulfilled by Jesus, and that is why Jesus is coming back, like he promised, to rule and to judge, because he is the Messiah, the Son of God.

Peace and God bless you

[Ruq]

Christianlady, on 02 March 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

1. Jesus was not born in the normal reproductive way, meaning his conception was not the product of sexual reproduction, but rather was a miracle of God, where God placed Jesus in Mary's womb through His Holy Spirit.

Hello again =) i think Muslims and Christians believe the same thing about Jesus(as) birth, the language used is just slightly different. The key difference seems to be the 'closeness' of the relationship; Christians believing Jesus(as) had the closest relationship of all prophets and muslims believing that prophets were equal in status.

[Ruq]

'Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

[Pascal]

Christianlady, on 02 March 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

Hello KingPomba,

The best way to understand what Christians believe is to pray, asking God for wisdom, and read the Bible. I personally do not ascribe to the Nicene Creed, but to what Jesus taught, accounted in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, as well as what Peter (the leader Jesus chose of his 12 apostles) taught, accounted in Acts.

Christians are very diverse. Although most do ascribe to the Nicene Creed, others ascribe to the Apostle's Creed (which was not considered to have been written by the apostles but is more simple than the Nicene Creed) Others, like me, base their beliefs on the Bible and not on doctrines explaining the Bible. Others base their beliefs on other things.

Peace and God bless you

Preaching to the choir man... i use to be catholic.

Almost all Christian denominations do subscribe to the nicene creed or at least the beliefs it contains so im not sure what sect you belong to in regards to that.

Obviously all christians base their belief in the bible but for a purpose like this, to try illustrate what they believe, the nicene creed does a good job.

Begotten in this case means kind of handed down. He is both fully God and fully man. Jesus *is* God, so i think you're slightly wrong there in thinking the Islamic idea is similar. This is one of the absolute immutable fundamentals, if he wasn't God he wouldn't be all that special to Christians, theres a reason they're called *christ*ians obviously, relating to Christ. The whole christian faith is based around Jesus, if you remove jesus you end up with judaism.

The whole begotten thing kind of implies he's made of the same 'stuff' (i forgot the appropriate ancient greek word sorry) as God. You are made of the same stuff as your parents for example.

This is something you cant look at in isolation though, its critical you take a holistic view. You just cant look at this one fact and ignore the trinity, the virgin birth, his ability to be resurrected and perform miracles.

There is also a difference between the *father* and God.

I understand its probably extremely hard to understand without any Christian background and i can see how it can be very confusing, perhaps typing "the trinity" into google images might help.

Its important to make a distinction between the christianity of the priests, theologians and scholars and the christianity of the people. You can often end up with very different things.

Edited by kingpomba, 03 March 2012 - 02:23 AM.

[Christianlady]

~Ruqaya, on 02 March 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Hello again =) i think Muslims and Christians believe the same thing about Jesus(as) birth, the language used is just slightly different. The key difference seems to be the 'closeness' of the relationship; Christians believing Jesus(as) had the closest relationship of all prophets and muslims believing that prophets were equal in status.

Hello Ruqaya's Amal,

Hello Yes that is a similarity between Muslim and Christian beliefs - concerning Jesus being born of a virgin.  Christians believe that Jesus is more than just a prophet.

Peace and God bless you

[Christianlady]

kingpomba, on 03 March 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

Preaching to the choir man... i use to be catholic.

Hello KingPomba,

I'm not a man. Just curious, but when was the last time you prayed, asked God for wisdom, and read the Bible?

Quote

Almost all Christian denominations do subscribe to the nicene creed or at least the beliefs it contains so im not sure what sect you belong to in regards to that.

Almost all Christian denominations believe the Bible to be the Word of God. The Nicene creed is not as stressed in most Protestant churches. The Bible, however is extremely important to most Protestant churches. I'm a Protestant.

Quote

Obviously all christians base their belief in the bible but for a purpose like this, to try illustrate what they believe, the nicene creed does a good job.

I protest lol. The Nicene Creed was written by Greek/Latin scholars, not written by the Jewish apostles who Jesus chose to be the leaders of the church. Also, the Nicene Creed has wording that is not specifically mentioned in the Bible.

Quote

Begotten in this case means kind of handed down.

Agreed. It doesn't mean that God biologically had children, like a human biological father does.

Quote

He is both fully God and fully man. Jesus *is* God, so i think you're slightly wrong there in thinking the Islamic idea is similar. This is one of the absolute immutable fundamentals, if he wasn't God he wouldn't be all that special to Christians, theres a reason they're called *christ*ians obviously, relating to Christ.

Christ means Anointed One - Messiah. Christians were first called Christians in Antioch.

Quote

The whole christian faith is based around Jesus, if you remove jesus you end up with judaism.

Amen!!! That is so important for people to understand. Jesus did not make a new religion. Jesus is the fulfillment of Judaistic prophesies!!!

Quote

The whole begotten thing kind of implies he's made of the same 'stuff' (i forgot the appropriate ancient greek word sorry) as God. You are made of the same stuff as your parents for example.

This is something you cant look at in isolation though, its critical you take a holistic view. You just cant look at this one fact and ignore the trinity, the virgin birth, his ability to be resurrected and perform miracles.

I am not saying to ignore anything. However, it is true that the Trinity doctrine is not specifically taught in the Bible. It is a way that 99% of Christians do understand how God relates to mankind. One thing I don't think many Muslims understand is that Christians do not believe in three gods. Rather, Christians believe in the three in One God. Yes it is very important to look at the virgin birth, Jesus' death and his resurrection, and the miracles, as well as teachings, that Jesus did and taught.

Quote

There is also a difference between the *father* and God.

Explain please?

Quote

I understand its probably extremely hard to understand without any Christian background and i can see how it can be very confusing, perhaps typing "the trinity" into google images might help.

That is why it is good for Christians to answer questions, I think. About googling, sometimes I have found really weird stuff through googling. I think it is better to ask a Christian who one knows who studies their belief. When I have questions about what Christian beliefs are, I ask my Dad or my pastor or my friends who are Christian.

Quote

Its important to make a distinction between the christianity of the priests, theologians and scholars and the christianity of the people. You can often end up with very different things.

Aye. Many of the Christian people I learn from who I don't know personally are ones who I very much admire for their help for the poor and their lives that reflect the beauty of God's love. Corrie ten Boom, for example, is one lady whose life story and books have been a great inspiration to me.

Peace and God bless you

[IMAnonymous]

Inception, on 01 March 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

From the reply I understood that Jesus was seen as prophet first, but then after he was crusified and raised again, he became Lord and Messiah. what does Lord mean here?

Lord of the Earth

[placid]

Hi Amaan,

Quote from Post 7:
well interesting, from one side you say Trinity is as because of different ways God relates to people (which means God is one, but someone calls him son, someone calls him father ,etc) and from the other side you say Jesus was the son of God (which means one Father who has one Son)!

meanwhile about Marry and Jesus' birth, we have have same belief according to our holy book.
but here is a point that as Jesus was born in this way, why do you persist to say his father was Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus?

if we say his father was Joseph who took care of him it's ok, but in the bible it says Joseph is the one who gave birth to Jesus [Mathew:1:16]!
and another problem is that if we reject he is his father, then we've to deny that Jesus is in generation of David !


RESPONSE, --- I would like to comment if I may. As I have said many times, the word trinity is not in the NT, nor is the doctrine of trinity taught.
It came from the Nicene Creed which was written as a Church doctrine in 325 AD.

--- However, the Father-Son relationship was introduced in the Gospel of Luke where the same angel Gabriel announced the virgin birth to Mary, as is recorded in Surah 19:
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

Luke 1:26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.
36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.” (Elizabeth was the mother of John the Baptist.)
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

I capitalized the word CALLED where it says ‘He will be called the Son of the Highest,’ and ‘He will be called the Son of God.’
Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, --- and God said, “This is My Beloved, only begotten, Unique Son, in whom I am well pleased.
This set up the Father-Son relationship and believers who worship God and follow Jesus can be ‘adopted’ into the ‘family of God,’ as ‘children of God.’

Your second question about the lineage of David is easy to understand.
Joseph was a descendant of David through his son Solomon.

--- You gave the reference of Matthew 1:
16.    16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

--- However, the next verses reveal their relationship:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.
20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.


Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.
2 This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria.
3 So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city.
4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David,
5 to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child.
6 So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

--- Matthew was written for the Jews and adheres to the law, so he records the lineage of Joseph, and since children were named from the father, Jesus was recorded as the son of Joseph, --- though Joseph was a foster father.

Luke wrote his Gospel for the Greeks so he gives the lineage of Jesus from Mary, who was a descendant of David through his son Nathan as it says in Luke 3:
23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, --- (you can read the names between verse 24 and 30, then:
31. The son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David,
--- So Mary was a true descendant of David which verifies the Scripture In Luke 1:
32. “And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.”

You can even verify the time in history when Jesus was born by the time of Caesar Augustus, when Quirinius was governor of Syria.
(I hope this helps to clarify the mystery.)


Placid

[Shia_Debater]

~Ruqaya, on 02 March 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Hello again =) i think Muslims and Christians believe the same thing about Jesus(as) birth, the language used is just slightly different. The key difference seems to be the 'closeness' of the relationship; Christians believing Jesus(as) had the closest relationship of all prophets and muslims believing that prophets were equal in status.

~Ruqaya, on 02 March 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

'Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

We believe that Prophet Muhammed is the closest to Allah (swt) out of all of his creation and is the greatest creation of Allah (swt) and the greatest prophet.

I have read that what this verse means is that there was no distinction between the message that the Prophets brought, it does not mean the distinction about their rank in the eyes of Allah (swt)

[shiaaliibrahim]

I do not have a photographic memory, but from research I did when I was seeking my faith.  I concluded that the rituals and deities of the pagan Roman religion were merged with Christianity.  This was done because Rome was quickly becoming a Christian nation and the old priests and the aristocracy were about to be swept away.  When Constantine finally embraced Christianity the empire had established a hold on the new religion by making it the old one with new names and by adding new concepts to Christianity.  The clothing of the priest barely changed and the saints took the form of the old idols.  It is pretty obvious if you do the research and connect the dots.

[placid]

Hi Shiaaliibrahim,

Quote from Post 20: I do not have a photographic memory, but from research I did when I was seeking my faith. I concluded that the rituals and deities of the pagan Roman religion were merged with Christianity. This was done because Rome was quickly becoming a Christian nation and the old priests and the aristocracy were about to be swept away. When Constantine finally embraced Christianity the empire had established a hold on the new religion by making it the old one with new names and by adding new concepts to Christianity. The clothing of the priest barely changed and the saints took the form of the old idols. It is pretty obvious if you do the research and connect the dots.

Response: --- Your assessment is right on.

Christianity was spread first by Jewish visitors to Jerusalem for the celebration of the Day of Pentecost, in Acts 2, when they witnessed the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on believers, --- and three thousand were converted after hearing Peter’s preaching. --- It says in verse 5, “Now there were staying in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven,” --- and verses 6-10 list the nations.

Within two weeks these visitors would return to their own country and carry the Gospel message with them, now that they understood the whole story and accepted it.

Secondly, the Apostles went out from Jerusalem as the Lord led them, --- so within the first few weeks --- and the following years Christianity increased as the Gospel was spread to the Gentiles, and really to the then known world.
The missionary journeys of Paul and Barnabas established local Churches and gave the Christians stability.

There was persecution of Christians in Jerusalem because both the Jews and the Romans were greatly concerned about the spread of Christianity.

--- The next generation called ‘The Church Fathers,’ continued in faithfulness to God. The local Churches grew and continued with the teaching, and their Churches were patterned after the first Church fellowship of believers in Acts.

It was about 300 AD that the Church leadership was becoming less spiritual and more political and were invited or coerced by the Roman Government to compromise with them.

--- They took part of Judaism (which the Roman Government had co-existed with) and combined it with Christian teaching, and developed a hierarchy, or ‘authoritative body’ who would decide for the Churches. It was called “The Roman Catholic Church.” --- The word ‘catholic’ meant ‘universal,’ --- so it was to be ‘the Church.’ --- They appointed priests, who wore the robes like the Pharisees, as you said. --- The veneration of Mary and the Saints took attention away from praying to God directly, so, the attention was focused on the Church, its activities, and leadership.

With their new concept, they wrote rules and new doctrines, as you said, and the faulty doctrine of trinity (which isn’t quite Scriptural) in 325, --- which has been a big stumbling block from then till now.

--- The evidence that this was not of God was that they tried to impose it on individual Churches, and when they didn’t accept it, they ended up killing some.

Thankfully the Evangelical Churches have survived through the years, in spite of all persecution, --- and the Roman Catholic Church has gone through some reforms.

--- The interesting, and effective Reformation was under Martin Luther in the 1500’s. --- But that’s another story


Placid

Edited by placid, 05 April 2012 - 03:02 PM.

[shiaaliibrahim]

placid, on 05 April 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Hi Shiaaliibrahim,

Quote from Post 20: I do not have a photographic memory, but from research I did when I was seeking my faith. I concluded that the rituals and deities of the pagan Roman religion were merged with Christianity. This was done because Rome was quickly becoming a Christian nation and the old priests and the aristocracy were about to be swept away. When Constantine finally embraced Christianity the empire had established a hold on the new religion by making it the old one with new names and by adding new concepts to Christianity. The clothing of the priest barely changed and the saints took the form of the old idols. It is pretty obvious if you do the research and connect the dots.

Response: --- Your assessment is right on.

Christianity was spread first by Jewish visitors to Jerusalem for the celebration of the Day of Pentecost, in Acts 2, when they witnessed the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on believers, --- and three thousand were converted after hearing Peter’s preaching. --- It says in verse 5, “Now there were staying in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven,” --- and verses 6-10 list the nations.

Within two weeks these visitors would return to their own country and carry the Gospel message with them, now that they understood the whole story and accepted it.

Secondly, the Apostles went out from Jerusalem as the Lord led them, --- so within the first few weeks --- and the following years Christianity increased as the Gospel was spread to the Gentiles, and really to the then known world.
The missionary journeys of Paul and Barnabas established local Churches and gave the Christians stability.

There was persecution of Christians in Jerusalem because both the Jews and the Romans were greatly concerned about the spread of Christianity.

--- The next generation called ‘The Church Fathers,’ continued in faithfulness to God. The local Churches grew and continued with the teaching, and their Churches were patterned after the first Church fellowship of believers in Acts.

It was about 300 AD that the Church leadership was becoming less spiritual and more political and were invited or coerced by the Roman Government to compromise with them.

--- They took part of Judaism (which the Roman Government had co-existed with) and combined it with Christian teaching, and developed a hierarchy, or ‘authoritative body’ who would decide for the Churches. It was called “The Roman Catholic Church.” --- The word ‘catholic’ meant ‘universal,’ --- so it was to be ‘the Church.’ --- They appointed priests, who wore the robes like the Pharisees, as you said. --- The veneration of Mary and the Saints took attention away from praying to God directly, so, the attention was focused on the Church, its activities, and leadership.

With their new concept, they wrote rules and new doctrines, as you said, and the faulty doctrine of trinity (which isn’t quite Scriptural) in 325, --- which has been a big stumbling block from then till now.

--- The evidence that this was not of God was that they tried to impose it on individual Churches, and when they didn’t accept it, they ended up killing some.

Thankfully the Evangelical Churches have survived through the years, in spite of all persecution, --- and the Roman Catholic Church has gone through some reforms.

--- The interesting, and effective Reformation was under Martin Luther in the 1500’s. --- But that’s another story


Placid

Brother, thank you for providing the details.  That's very important for many people who want to do specific research on this topic.

Wa salaam

[Aly ReZa]

heard the beleive jesus is the son of god

[Inception]

placid, on 05 April 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Hi Shiaaliibrahim,


--- The interesting, and effective Reformation was under Martin Luther in the 1500’s. --- But that’s another story


Placid

Thanks alot Placid, it was a very interesting and informative review...

If you so wish, you can tell what Martin Luther did please..you say 1500s??
regards

[placid]

Hi Inception,

Thanks for your interest in Martin Luther who restored faith in God in his generation, even as Muhammad did some 900 years before.

There is much written ‘on line’ on Martin Luther and this is from Wikipedia:

Quote: Martin Luther 10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546) was a German monk, priest, professor of theology and iconic figure of the Protestant Reformation. He strongly disputed the claim that freedom from God's punishment for sin could be purchased with money. He confronted indulgence salesman Johann Tetzel with his Ninety-Five Theses in 1517. His refusal to retract all of his writings at the demand of Pope Leo X in 1520 and the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at the Diet of Worms in 1521 resulted in his excommunication by the pope and condemnation as an outlaw by the Emperor.

Luther taught that salvation is not earned by good deeds but received only as a free gift of God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin. His theology challenged the authority of the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge  and opposed sacerdotalism by considering all baptized Christians to be a holy priesthood. Those who identify with Luther's teachings are called Lutherans.
His translation of the Bible into the vernacular (instead of Latin) made it more accessible, causing a tremendous impact on the church and on German culture. It fostered the development of a standard version of the German language, added several principles to the art of translation, and influenced the translation into English of the King James Bible. His hymns influenced the development of singing in churches.[ His marriage to Katharina von Bora set a model for the practice of clerical marriage, allowing Protestant priests to marry.]

The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24–25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23–25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us. --- End of quote.  

Surah 5:82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans (idolaters); and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning (monks) and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

In Muhammad’s time the Jews took offense at his teaching, and were identified with idolaters in opposition, --- but the Christians recognized the truth of what God was revealing to, and through him.

By the 1500’s the Roman Catholic Church had strayed away from God and they were venerating Mary and the saints, and were the opposition to true Christianity somewhat the same way that the idolaters opposed Muhammad.

Martin Luther was a Monk (of the caliber mentioned above in 5:82) who studied the Scriptures and saw the gross errors of the Church and wanted to reform it from within, but found little support.

The Church was large and needed money so they had devised ways to raise money from the people who weren’t tithing. --- One way was by selling ‘indulgencies.’ --- basically it meant that you could buy your salvation and forgiveness for sin.
This was the point when Martin Luther took the ‘Ninety-five Thesis’ he had written, and nailing them to the door of the Wittenburg Chapel in Germany.
This was a list of the wrongs of the Church that needed to be corrected.

---The quote above shows his struggle for recognition in the Church, however, there were more and more who were agreeing with him and following him, and reviving the Truth of the Scriptures in their own lives.

Realizing that they were looking to him for guidance, he wrote two Catechisms, --- one for adults and one for children.
Catechism is the means of teaching by using questions and answers.
Both were based on five principle teaching in the Scripture.
--- The Ten Commandments, Exodus 20.
--- The Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5, 6, and 7.
--- The Apostles’ Creed.
--- The ordinance of Baptism.
--- The ordinance of Communion, (commemorating the Last Supper, 1 Cor 11:23-26).    

(More later, lest it get too long.)


Placid