34 replies to this topic

[Philip]

how would a mother name her kids after people she refuses to talk to over her dead body ?! .. at least this point all shia and suni agree upon ..

there is obviously a perspective here that we will find out for sure in judgment day .. but doesn't change fact that the mother of bani Ali .. regarless of their names, did not tolerate the false khalifas .. where's the point in this discussion?? we all know the truth !! they couldn't have been named after them .. unless if they were born in a time when their hypocrisy was hidden ..

.. and when i come to think of it .. this must have been the case .. Sayida Fatima ... the true umm al moemeneen and the the Umm of the Ummah .. and the mother of our coming Imam Mahdi .. died 6 months after her father passed away .. and this was the time when their hypocrisy n kufr flourished to the surface .. until the end of the prophet's life, they were pretending to be his sincere friends .. and probably treating the prophet's family as sincere friends too !!

at the same time as pointed out in previous posts .. chances are that there are prominent Omars Abu Bakrs and Uthmans who are overshadowing the popular ones within the aalih Mohamad ..

but to go back to facts and leave speculations aside .. Sayida Fatimah hated the popularly known omar, abu bakr and uthman traitors .. and her husband Sayidna Ali also didn't accept them .. and pledged allegiance under very shady conditions AFTER his wife passed away.

Honestly, if i love my wife .. and somebody upsets her until she dies .. i'll hate that person FOREVER .. and imagine that person being prophet's daughter .. and the same person upsetting you as well !! my God .. it's so simple !! i wish ppl who call themselves "suni" will finally start being real "suni" of Allah and His prophets !! and open their closed eyes ..

[shia4life669]

 Abu Muslim, on 07 March 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Interestingly in that copy and paste you posted, Uthman bin Nat'eoon is not mentioned in the list of the 19 Uthman's. Which Uthman was named after Uthman bin Nat'eon? Ali had 2 sons named Uthman, and 2 named Umar. You (or should I say Answering Ansar as its a copy and paste) haven't explained the case of Abu Bakr yet.

ABu bakur was not his real name and by the way againd  the prophet ilyas was also nicknamed abu bakur your sentance is invaled.

[Hozin]

 Righteous, on 08 March 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

<p>

Go ahead and live in your fantasy world where all the companions loved each other and river of milk and honey flowed.
Do you know that Ali did not name any one Abu Bakr, Mohammad bin Abi Bakr was raised by him as his own. He had married Abu Bakr's widow too.

There is enough direct evidence of what Ali thought of the sheikhan. You like all Sunnis are clutching at straws so your fantasies are not shattered.

not a single point refuted...this is getting very pathetic, Im sorry to say...what was the point of quoting me if you dont answer my points or at least try to? cant you address anything I said?...would you name your kid Sadam? how about Netanyahu? what about Abu Jahl? would you name your kids these names even if they were popular? would you subject your children to a life of derision and ridicule? if you say no, then you have gone against your imams actions, thus you deem him fallible and everything else comes crumbling down....if you say yes, then you are either A) a liar...or a horrible parent...

[Righteous]

 Hozin, on 08 March 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

not a single point refuted...this is getting very pathetic, Im sorry to say...what was the point of quoting me if you dont answer my points or at least try to? cant you address anything I said?...would you name your kid Sadam? how about Netanyahu? what about Abu Jahl? would you name your kids these names even if they were popular? would you subject your children to a life of derision and ridicule? if you say no, then you have gone against your imams actions, thus you deem him fallible and everything else comes crumbling down....if you say yes, then you are either A) a liar...or a horrible parent...

If you had made a point I would refute it. What you presented was the qiyas of your mind. You can dream away anything.

I told you which kid was called abi bakr and why. Another brother talked about Uthman. SEcondly, this is neither the matter of usool e din or fiqh. We judge people by their character and not name. Do you know there were many a yazid in the close companions of our  Aima ?

It is impossible to explain to people what moral high ground is and the character of the Aima was like. Nasibis question a lot of things about Ali's rule. They say he should have done this or that to consolidate his rule then taken on Muwayia. What you guys dont understand that Ali or any other Imam will choose to do the right thing even when doing something else will get them worldly gains. But when you judge caliphs on how much land they conquered and riches they looted as a measure of success, i doubt i can get through to you!

[zameena]

because he wanted unity among all muslims

[Hozin]

 Righteous, on 09 March 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

If you had made a point I would refute it. What you presented was the qiyas of your mind. You can dream away anything.

I told you which kid was called abi bakr and why. Another brother talked about Uthman. SEcondly, this is neither the matter of usool e din or fiqh. We judge people by their character and not name. Do you know there were many a yazid in the close companions of our  Aima ?

It is impossible to explain to people what moral high ground is and the character of the Aima was like. Nasibis question a lot of things about Ali's rule. They say he should have done this or that to consolidate his rule then taken on Muwayia. What you guys dont understand that Ali or any other Imam will choose to do the right thing even when doing something else will get them worldly gains. But when you judge caliphs on how much land they conquered and riches they looted as a measure of success, i doubt i can get through to you!

If I wouldve made a point? I asked you, and this is the third time now, would you name your son sadam? or Abu Jahl? or Netanyahu? and additionally, would you name FOUR of your kids SEPARATELY Sadam and Abu Jahl...Moral high ground? what does that have to do with anything?...Morality is actually sacrificed when you name your kids after people whom you consider to be the worst of creation...Morality dictates that it would be highly IMMORAL for a jew to name his son Adolf...We shouldnt judge Caliphs on how much land they conquered? if it wasnt for this "loot", the Islamic empire would have NEVER been established and Muslim Andalusia would be fiction...then Atheists and secularists can point their fingers at us saying "see, Islam never brought any science, medicine or literature to the world"...in fact, if it wasnt for people like Umar Radhi Allaahu 'anhu to extend Jihad and carry out the expansion of Islam, there would be no Iran, no Palestine etc...but back to the main issue...you told me that Abu Bakr was not a name of his son and that he was just taken on or fostered by Ali...so can you explain why his name is Abu Bakr ibn Ali? the Quran says explicitly not to call anyone your son if he is not your biological son...and I can show you MANY threads on this very forum to Shi'ah people( and even from answering ansar) who admit that Abu Bakr was indeed the son of Ali, they just say that it was a nickname...so you seem to be deviating even further...and here is a link to a scholar saying that naming one's children after enemies of Ahlul Bayt is discouraged http://www.al-islam....k/msg00711.html  ... and also, youre right, someone mentioned why Ali Radhi Allaahu 'anhu named his children Uthman...but I REJECT that explanation...Ali Radhi Allaahu 'anhu was decent enough not name his children after his supposed enemies even if there were other less known people with that name...Shi'ah can try to downplay this argument as much as possible but whether you like it or not, names are extremely important...every piece of history helps us get closer to the truth...and what do we have now? Ali Radhi Allaahu 'anhu giving bay'ah to all three khulafaa' Radhi Allaahu 'anhum, participating in their affairs,  naming his children after them..and we are supposed to believe that he either did out of taqiyyah aka fear (because there are some strong brothers nowadays who wont even get their citizenship in the U.S because they have to pledge allegiance to the U.S so imagine if Ali was asked to pledge allegiance to tyrants who supposedly changed the deen), or because of some other lame conspiratorial reason..

[Ace Abbas]

 zameena, on 09 March 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

because he wanted unity among all muslims

+1

[shia4life669]

 Hozin, on 09 March 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

If I wouldve made a point? I asked you, and this is the third time now, would you name your son sadam? or Abu Jahl? or Netanyahu? and additionally, would you name FOUR of your kids SEPARATELY Sadam and Abu Jahl...Moral high ground? what does that have to do with anything?...Morality is actually sacrificed when you name your kids after people whom you consider to be the worst of creation...Morality dictates that it would be highly IMMORAL for a jew to name his son Adolf...We shouldnt judge Caliphs on how much land they conquered? if it wasnt for this "loot", the Islamic empire would have NEVER been established and Muslim Andalusia would be fiction...then Atheists and secularists can point their fingers at us saying "see, Islam never brought any science, medicine or literature to the world"...in fact, if it wasnt for people like Umar Radhi Allaahu 'anhu to extend Jihad and carry out the expansion of Islam, there would be no Iran, no Palestine etc...but back to the main issue...you told me that Abu Bakr was not a name of his son and that he was just taken on or fostered by Ali...so can you explain why his name is Abu Bakr ibn Ali? the Quran says explicitly not to call anyone your son if he is not your biological son...and I can show you MANY threads on this very forum to Shi'ah people( and even from answering ansar) who admit that Abu Bakr was indeed the son of Ali, they just say that it was a nickname...so you seem to be deviating even further...and here is a link to a scholar saying that naming one's children after enemies of Ahlul Bayt is discouraged http://www.al-islam....k/msg00711.html  ... and also, youre right, someone mentioned why Ali Radhi Allaahu 'anhu named his children Uthman...but I REJECT that explanation...Ali Radhi Allaahu 'anhu was decent enough not name his children after his supposed enemies even if there were other less known people with that name...Shi'ah can try to downplay this argument as much as possible but whether you like it or not, names are extremely important...every piece of history helps us get closer to the truth...and what do we have now? Ali Radhi Allaahu 'anhu giving bay'ah to all three khulafaa' Radhi Allaahu 'anhum, participating in their affairs,  naming his children after them..and we are supposed to believe that he either did out of taqiyyah aka fear (because there are some strong brothers nowadays who wont even get their citizenship in the U.S because they have to pledge allegiance to the U.S so imagine if Ali was asked to pledge allegiance to tyrants who supposedly changed the deen), or because of some other lame conspiratorial reason..

Dont you unsderstand humans are ignorent because when we think of the name for example hitler we thing directly at the worst person alive in history named hitler. But our imams are better then that when they look at the name umer they look at what it means which is Flourishing, Thriving

[Righteous]

 Hozin, on 09 March 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

If I wouldve made a point? I asked you, and this is the third time now, would you name your son sadam? or Abu Jahl? or Netanyahu? and additionally, would you name FOUR of your kids SEPARATELY Sadam and Abu Jahl...Moral high ground? what does that have to do with anything?...Morality is actually sacrificed when you name your kids after people whom you consider to be the worst of creation...Morality dictates that it would be highly IMMORAL for a jew to name his son Adolf...We shouldnt judge Caliphs on how much land they conquered? if it wasnt for this "loot", the Islamic empire would have NEVER been established and Muslim Andalusia would be fiction...then Atheists and secularists can point their fingers at us saying "see, Islam never brought any science, medicine or literature to the world"...in fact, if it wasnt for people like Umar Radhi Allaahu 'anhu to extend Jihad and carry out the expansion of Islam, there would be no Iran, no Palestine etc...but back to the main issue...you told me that Abu Bakr was not a name of his son and that he was just taken on or fostered by Ali...so can you explain why his name is Abu Bakr ibn Ali? the Quran says explicitly not to call anyone your son if he is not your biological son...and I can show you MANY threads on this very forum to Shi'ah people( and even from answering ansar) who admit that Abu Bakr was indeed the son of Ali, they just say that it was a nickname...so you seem to be deviating even further...and here is a link to a scholar saying that naming one's children after enemies of Ahlul Bayt is discouraged http://www.al-islam....k/msg00711.html  ... and also, youre right, someone mentioned why Ali Radhi Allaahu 'anhu named his children Uthman...but I REJECT that explanation...Ali Radhi Allaahu 'anhu was decent enough not name his children after his supposed enemies even if there were other less known people with that name...Shi'ah can try to downplay this argument as much as possible but whether you like it or not, names are extremely important...every piece of history helps us get closer to the truth...and what do we have now? Ali Radhi Allaahu 'anhu giving bay'ah to all three khulafaa' Radhi Allaahu 'anhum, participating in their affairs,  naming his children after them..and we are supposed to believe that he either did out of taqiyyah aka fear (because there are some strong brothers nowadays who wont even get their citizenship in the U.S because they have to pledge allegiance to the U.S so imagine if Ali was asked to pledge allegiance to tyrants who supposedly changed the deen), or because of some other lame conspiratorial reason..

Again a long rant devoid of substance. All your arguments are based on your twisted logic and limited understanding.

I told you there were many a close companions called Yazid of our Imams so they should have shunned them based on your logic?

If you are rejecting the explanation for naming given by various brothers then let me ask questions and you should explain. WHy would Imam Ali name his children after the usurpers of his beloved wife's rights, the rude and crude attackers on believers and afraid of disbelievers and the person that brought back people that the Prophet kicked out of Medina personally and not only that but also rewarded them generously from public treasury (bait ul maal) the first umayad king.

As far as the pledge of allegiance is considered, he has clearly stated that he had put the curtain between himself and caliphate as his right was usurped. (Read Nahjul Blaghah). He was the rightful Imam appointed by Allah and the 3 were usurpers. Since there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary you guys just clutch at straws and try to find the elusive love and harmony between them and Ali .

I will be raised with my Imam on the day of judgement and you will be raised with yours....will surely know for sure then.

Cheers

[Hozin]

 Righteous, on 10 March 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

Again a long rant devoid of substance. All your arguments are based on your twisted logic and limited understanding.

I told you there were many a close companions called Yazid of our Imams so they should have shunned them based on your logic?

If you are rejecting the explanation for naming given by various brothers then let me ask questions and you should explain. WHy would Imam Ali name his children after the usurpers of his beloved wife's rights, the rude and crude attackers on believers and afraid of disbelievers and the person that brought back people that the Prophet kicked out of Medina personally and not only that but also rewarded them generously from public treasury (bait ul maal) the first umayad king.

As far as the pledge of allegiance is considered, he has clearly stated that he had put the curtain between himself and caliphate as his right was usurped. (Read Nahjul Blaghah). He was the rightful Imam appointed by Allah and the 3 were usurpers. Since there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary you guys just clutch at straws and try to find the elusive love and harmony between them and Ali .

I will be raised with my Imam on the day of judgement and you will be raised with yours....will surely know for sure then.

Cheers

sub7aan Allaah...again you refuse to answer my simple questions...Laa Ilaaha IlaLaah...truth stands clear from falsehood...4 strikes and youre out im afraid..this is truly pathetic...close companions named Yazeed? did the Imams name them yazeed, because that is the only way your horrible attempt at a refutation would have any relation to this topic...I only mentioned caliphate as an illustration when combined with the fact that Ali named his children after the people who he hates most (according to you), it makes a ton more sense to believe that he was on good terms with them... but if you truly believe that an imam with knowledge of the unseen, who was supposedly given successor rights by the Prophet Sul ALlaahu 'alahi wa Salam himself in front of thousands of people, who controls all the atoms of the world, who has complete divine authority in the heavens and the earth, could have his title taken away by a couple of supposed hypocrites not once, not twice, but three times,  then you are free to believe that...I prefer to utilize my "limited" understanding and logic towards a much more healthy, rational and reconcilable interpretation...one that doesnt involve me belittling Ali's wisdom, bravery and intelligence...it's funny how you claim that he is this highly moral, strong and brave individual and then accuse him of cowardice (bay'ah to the "usurpers", not standing up to Abu Bakr when he denied Fatmah her supposed right), immorality and lack of consideration (naming his children the early islamic equivalent of Adolf Hitler, Sadam Hussein and Benjamin Natanyahu according to you) and lack of intelligence (not using his divine heavenly authority since he is supposedly the "eyes of Allaah, the hands of Allaah, the sides of Allaah and the door to Allaah" Al-Kafi H 360, Ch. 23, h 8 to thwart the changing of Islam...through your attempts to raise Ali, you put him in ethical quicksand May Allaah guide you