25 replies to this topic

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

If you can understand Urdu, please listen to this manaqabat by Mir Hassan Mir and let me know if any lines or ideas in it can be considered either touching the line or crossing it between shirk and not. Thanks

[Replicant]

I just listened to it. Although my Urdu isn't THAT good (I can converse fluently though), I didn't think there was any shirk in there.
He is just talking from the point of view of Imam Ali's sword.

Maybe if you point out some of the lines that you think are dodgy, it would be helpful.

Edited by Replicant, 29 February 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

Replicant, on 29 February 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

I just listened to it. Although my Urdu isn't THAT good (I can converse fluently though), I didn't think there was any shirk in there.
He is just talking from the point of view of Imam Ali's sword.

my question was speficifally towards a line where he says "khuda kay haath mein rehna ki mujko aadat hai." Before he says that "khuda nai noor ki aatish mein mujko dhala hai..."

now, if he is using the same words for both, is this not shirk to say that for Imam Ali?

[Carl]

Faatima_ki_kaneez, on 29 February 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

my question was speficifally towards a line where he says "khuda kay haath mein rehna ki mujko aadat hai." Before he says that "khuda nai noor ki aatish mein mujko dhala hai..."

now, if he is using the same words for both, is this not shirk to say that for Imam Ali?

Maybe it's because Imam Ali is described as the eye of Allah, light of Allah and the hand of Allah.
I don't really understand the last part but wasn't Imam Ali created from noor and noor shown from his forehead? It could have something to do with that.

There is another manqabat called Haider hun mein Haider...some of that one sounds like shirk to me

Edited by IluvAllah, 29 February 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

IluvAllah, on 29 February 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Maybe it's because Imam Ali is described as the eye of Allah, light of Allah and the hand of Allah.
I don't really understand the last part but wasn't Imam Ali created from noor and noor shown from his forehead? It could have something to do with that.

There is another manqabat called Haider hun mein Haider...some of that one sounds like shirk to me

Haider hun mein haider mir hassan mir says is a part of a speech Imam Ali actually gave. However, my mom and I were debating about the zulfiquar manaqabat and couldn't come to a consensus. So, I said I'd ask you guys and have a tie breaker.

Edited by Faatima_ki_kaneez, 29 February 2012 - 07:08 PM.

[Carl]

Faatima_ki_kaneez, on 29 February 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Haider hun mein haider is also another one that might cross the line. However, my mom and were debating about the zulfiquar manaqabat and couldn't come to a consensus. So, I said I'd ask you guys and have a tie breaker.

What does that line mean? khuda nai noor ki aatish mein mujko dhala hai..."
Yes...He has this line where he says "Tasveer banata hun mein madar ke shikam mein"
?! That line was strange

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

IluvAllah, on 29 February 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

What does that line mean? khuda nai noor ki aatish mein mujko dhala hai..."
Yes...He has this line where he says "Tasveer banata hun mein madar ke shikam mein"
?! That line was strange

By noor ki aatish, he means Zulfiquar was created of noor.

Maybe this will help you (Translation of Haider hoon mein haider in english).

I am Haider!
Ali used to say this on a Mimbar in Kufa
I am Haider!
Why is the world stunned by hearing about my miracles?
I am Haider!
Why would the sun not turn back on my command?
Why would the stars not descend on my command?
I am the one who lights them with my light and I can turn them into
darkness...
I am Haider!
I am unseen... and the world doesn’t realize this
I am not limited by a name of this world
I am solely and truly understood by Allah (swt) the Great
I am Haider!
Allah’s mercy has been rested upon me
Allah (swt) has sworn about my coming in the Quran
I am flowing through the Quran with all of it’s words.
I am Haider!
The permission for this has been solely given to me
To see this live and the hereafter
On this, Allah (swt) has solely trusted me.
I am Haider!
If I’m killed I still won’t die
Even if death comes to me 100 times I still won’t die
Death is helpless in front of me
I am Haider!
When the Prophet SAW reached the highest point of Meraj
He came just to be reintroduced to me
I wanted to reveal to the world who I truly am,
I am Haider!
A mother gave this loving advice to her loved one,
“May you fight several battles and die but make sure you don’t fight
the one... who comes to the battle field saying: ‘I am Haider!’”
Who are you trying to scare by showing your strength?
It was men amongst you who ran away from the battle against me
Oh you people who distinguish between lovers, I am no regular man... I
am Haider!
Allah’s mercy has been rested upon me
Allah (swt) has sworn about my coming in the Quran
I am flowing through the Quran with all of it’s words.
I am Haider!
If I’m killed I still won’t die
Even if death comes to me 100 times I still won’t die
Death is helpless in front of me
I am Haider!
I swear I’m not what people think I am
You can consider me everything but Allah (swt)
The Lord is the Greater one, that quality is instilled in my son Akbar
I am Haider!

[hameedeh]

"Hand of Allah" means servant of Allah or slave of Allah. It means Imam Ali AS would only do what Allah SWT wills.

[Ali_Hussain]

Faatima_ki_kaneez, on 29 February 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

By noor ki aatish, he means Zulfiquar was created of noor.

Maybe this will help you (Translation of Haider hoon mein haider in english).

I am Haider!
Ali used to say this on a Mimbar in Kufa
I am Haider!
Why is the world stunned by hearing about my miracles?
I am Haider!
Why would the sun not turn back on my command?
Why would the stars not descend on my command?
I am the one who lights them with my light and I can turn them into
darkness...
I am Haider!
I am unseen... and the world doesn’t realize this
I am not limited by a name of this world
I am solely and truly understood by Allah (swt) the Great
I am Haider!
Allah’s mercy has been rested upon me
Allah (swt) has sworn about my coming in the Quran
I am flowing through the Quran with all of it’s words.
I am Haider!
The permission for this has been solely given to me
To see this live and the hereafter
On this, Allah (swt) has solely trusted me.
I am Haider!
If I’m killed I still won’t die
Even if death comes to me 100 times I still won’t die
Death is helpless in front of me
I am Haider!
When the Prophet SAW reached the highest point of Meraj
He came just to be reintroduced to me
I wanted to reveal to the world who I truly am,
I am Haider!
A mother gave this loving advice to her loved one,
“May you fight several battles and die but make sure you don’t fight
the one... who comes to the battle field saying: ‘I am Haider!’”
Who are you trying to scare by showing your strength?
It was men amongst you who ran away from the battle against me
Oh you people who distinguish between lovers, I am no regular man... I
am Haider!
Allah’s mercy has been rested upon me
Allah (swt) has sworn about my coming in the Quran
I am flowing through the Quran with all of it’s words.
I am Haider!
If I’m killed I still won’t die
Even if death comes to me 100 times I still won’t die
Death is helpless in front of me
I am Haider!
I swear I’m not what people think I am
You can consider me everything but Allah (swt)
The Lord is the Greater one, that quality is instilled in my son Akbar
I am Haider!

...no comment

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

Ali_Hussain, on 01 March 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

...no comment

??

hameedeh, on 01 March 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

"Hand of Allah" means servant of Allah or slave of Allah. It means Imam Ali AS would only do what Allah SWT wills.

My mom wouldn't beleive me. she's convinced that I shouldn't listen to him because she thinks his manaqabats contain shirk.

[Marbles]

Faatima_ki_kaneez, on 29 February 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

my question was speficifally towards a line where he says "khuda kay haath mein rehna ki mujko aadat hai." Before he says that "khuda nai noor ki aatish mein mujko dhala hai..."

now, if he is using the same words for both, is this not shirk to say that for Imam Ali?

There is general practice among the poets to speak in innuendos (zoo maani) and also to exaggerate (mubalgha) their subject matter to bring the point home effectively. I haven't listened it to the end but from the lines you quoted, the first one is an allusion to Imam Ali as "hand of Allah'. On the face of it, it seems that the poet is calling Imam Ali as Allah but this is not what is intended here.

Poetic exaggeration (mubalgha aaraaii) can go a long way. For example I have heard qasidas in which Hazrat Abbas is referred to as "wafa ka Khuda", ie, God of Loyalty. This, again, is far from shirk. If people are not familiar with the tradition and styles of our Urdu (and Persian) poetry, they are going to misunderstand these poems. The key is not to interpret poetry literally.

[hameedeh]

Faatima_ki_kaneez, on 01 March 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

My mom wouldn't beleive me. she's convinced that I shouldn't listen to him because she thinks his manaqabats contain shirk.

If these words bother your mom, then don't play this loud enough that she can hear it. Use earphones or just decide not to play it at all. Allah will bless you for honoring your mother's wishes. InshaAllah

Quote

Poetic exaggeration (mubalgha aaraaii) can go a long way. For example I have heard qasidas in which Hazrat Abbas is referred to as "wafa ka Khuda", ie, God of Loyalty. This, again, is far from shirk. If people are not familiar with the tradition and styles of our Urdu (and Persian) poetry, they are going to misunderstand these poems. The key is not to interpret poetry literally.

Imam Hussain AS is called "Thar Allah" (Blood of God) and nobody misinterprets that. He gave his blood for Allah. The Supreme Sacrifice.

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

hameedeh, on 01 March 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

If these words bother your mom, then don't play this loud enough that she can hear it. Use earphones or just decide not to play it at all. Allah will bless you for honoring your mother's wishes. InshaAllah

I'm trying to stop listening to music, so I've started listening to his manaqabats. I was hoping she would understand if it's coming from a bunch of different people. oh well. thanks to everyone.

[phoenix]

IluvAllah, on 29 February 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Yes...He has this line where he says "Tasveer banata hun mein madar ke shikam mein"
?! That line was strange

I am not sure where you are hearing this line. I heard both the manqabats (twice) but I didn't find that.

Anyhow, wherever it is from, this is a line attributed to Imam `Ali (a) in a khuTbah of his, which has been deemed inauthentic by all prominent `ulamaa' and seems to have penetrated our books from the Sufiyyah.

Faatima_ki_kaneez, on 29 February 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Maybe this will help you (Translation of Haider hoon mein haider in english).

I find the translation is not very good. In addition to that, I listened to the manqabat here:



and found that it is not in order.

Anyhow, as Marbles stated, there is often a lot of mubalighah in Urdu poetry - you could have it in any poetry as well as prose as long as it doesn't reach the bounds of blasphemy - and people who don't understand it and don't want to understand it either should not be poking their noses into such matters.

Other than that, there is absolutely no doubt in their wilayah over the takwiniyyah, in the sense of creation having to do their bidding when commanded, NOT in the sense of their running the Universe. People who cannot digest this should deny any and every "miracle" attributed to them and go find themselves a place anywhere besides the Imami Shi`ah madhhab.

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

phoenix, on 01 March 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

I am not sure where you are hearing this line. I heard both the manqabats (twice) but I didn't find that.

Anyhow, wherever it is from, this is a line attributed to Imam `Ali (a) in a khuTbah of his, which has been deemed inauthentic by all prominent `ulamaa' and seems to have penetrated our books from the Sufiyyah.



I find the translation is not very good. In addition to that, I listened to the manqabat here:



and found that it is not in order.

Anyhow, as Marbles stated, there is often a lot of mubalighah in Urdu poetry - you could have it in any poetry as well as prose as long as it doesn't reach the bounds of blasphemy - and people who don't understand it and don't want to understand it either should not be poking their noses into such matters.

Other than that, there is absolutely no doubt in their wilayah over the takwiniyyah, in the sense of creation having to do their bidding when commanded, NOT in the sense of their running the Universe. People who cannot digest this should deny any and every "miracle" attributed to them and go find themselves a place anywhere besides the Imami Shi`ah madhhab.

Yeah, i found the translation online, and it conveyed the basic point of the manaqabaat, which is what iluvAllah needed, so it worked. I couldn't find another translation and my urdu is no where near good enough to translate it myself.

Many people do feel that some of his poetry does reach the bounds of shirk. And, the miracles of Imam Ali are so astounding that sometimes it becomes a very blury and fine line people must walk between what is appropriate or not.

In such matters, I don't think we can call it simply mubalighah in the poetry. Even if it is, it still cannot cross the line of shirk, even if it is poetic exageration to make a point. However, u probably have more experience with reading urdu poetry, so i'll defer to your statement.

You say "people who don't understand it and don't want to understand it either should not be poking their noses into such matters."

I don't know what has annoyed you or you just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, but I'm asking to clarify a debate I was having with my mother. Now, if asking for the sake of clarification means we "should not be poking their noses into such matters" then Shia Chat would not exist, except for one or two self-righteous threads.

perhaps I am just sensing hostility that is not there, in which case thanks for your reply and sorry for the accusation. However, if you are being hostile and trying to be rude, I would appreciate it if you don't reply to my posts in the future. I know that many people don't mind hostile responces on SC, but I will not. I want people to disagree with me, but you can do it without being rude. Thanks a lot.

Edited by Faatima_ki_kaneez, 01 March 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[Alejandro Sosa]

Quote

When the Prophet SAW reached the highest point of Meraj
He came just to be reintroduced to me

Ghulu alert

What the hell is wrong with some people?....

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

Alejandro Sosa, on 01 March 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Ghulu alert

What the hell is wrong with some people?....

what does that mean?

[Alejandro Sosa]

It's another classic example of people exaggerating the qualities of Imam Ali and bordering onto shirk..

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

Alejandro Sosa, on 01 March 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

It's another classic example of people exaggerating the qualities of Imam Ali and bordering onto shirk..

I tried asking a imam who came to my mosque about this, but he dodged the question becasue he either didn't want to either cross into shirk, or he didn't want to confuse people. So, i don't really know if that is an exaggeration or not...

btw, i feel like the guy in your profile picture is staring at me, and it is very distracting...

[Alejandro Sosa]

Sis my advice to u is to stay away from stuff like this

it's good that u questioned in the first place that it could be shirk or at the very least, exaggeration

people seem to think that shirk only means worshipping a statue or an imaginary figure alongside Allah swt

shirk means giving him partners, i.e. partners who can do what he does, who you can pray to, who are at the same level as him, etc etc

Gracias, senora.

Edited by Alejandro Sosa, 01 March 2012 - 08:58 AM.

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

Alejandro Sosa, on 01 March 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Sis my advice to u is to stay away from stuff like this

it's good that u questioned in the first place that it could be shirk or at the very least, exaggeration

people seem to think that shirk only means worshipping a statue or an imaginary figure alongside Allah swt

shirk means giving him partners, i.e. partners who can do what he does, who you can pray to, who are at the same level as him, etc etc

Gracias, senora.

Brother I completely agree with you. However, if we looked at it this way, we should stay away from anything that might produce a test of iman, and that would be wrong. there would be no point of faith then, if there is no test for it.

I asked an imam who came to our majlis why in Qur'an Allah says "hum" or "we"...the imam responded that when Allah is doing somehting through someone else (for example, through an angel) there is a "we" Now, this is not shirk. it is not giving Him a partner, persay. but it is attributing His action with another being Allah USED to complete an action. The same thign is with Imam Ali . So long as you think, in your mind, that He is doing what He is doing becasue of the Will and Power of Allah, and Allah alone, it is easy to  distinguish between shirk and not. Imam can turn back the sun, and as long as you know it's through the Will and Power of Allah, then you will be fine. I definitly agree that there is a slippery slope, but it is easily travelled upon as long as one remembers tawheed. However, when i explain all of this to my mother, she doesn't agree.

Still, you are right that it's easy to make a mistake.

[phoenix]

Faatima_ki_kaneez, on 01 March 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Yeah, i found the translation online, and it conveyed the basic point of the manaqabaat, which is what iluvAllah needed, so it worked. I couldn't find another translation and my urdu is no where near good enough to translate it myself.

Let's start with the translation part before I go on to the rest of your post:

So, I looked around for more and I found the other parts of the manqabat from the bad translation posted earlier (try not to take it too hard because it's not your translation, OK? :-) ).

-The star descending by his command - this is an incorrect translation.

- Solely understood by Allah - where did the part about the Prophet (saww) go?
And there is a difference between saying, "I am not limited by a name..." and what is there in the manqabat (names are not a constraint upon me).

-"Allah’s mercy has been rested upon me
Allah (swt) has sworn about my coming in the Quran
I am flowing through the Quran with all of it’s words."

Although nothing wrong with the above, there is no such wording in there. Instead says,

'The references for the Truth of my Lord are in my control
Allah has sworn by me in the Qur'an
My laqab is 'La rayb' [one regarding whom there is not a shred of doubt] in the Qur'an'

All of the above we very much have in tafasir.

The controversial parts are:

1) The Lord is the Greater one, that quality is instilled in my son Akbar
??
The Lord is the Akbar, my Creator, the Akbar.

2) The one which iluvAllah had asked about - fashioning the child in the womb (hearing all that here ).


3) The part about mi`raj. There is nothing about being reintroduced; instead saying that he only had permission to shake hands with the Prophet (saww) there. I am, however, not comfortable with that part either because it is understood to be a fabricated Hadith (Imam `Ali (a.s.)  being present in the Heavens at the time of the Prophet (saww)'s mi`raj).



Now onto the rest,

Quote

Many people do feel that some of his poetry does reach the bounds of shirk. And, the miracles of Imam Ali are so astounding that sometimes it becomes a very blury and fine line people must walk between what is appropriate or not.

In such matters, I don't think we can call it simply mubalighah in the poetry. Even if it is, it still cannot cross the line of shirk, even if it is poetic exageration to make a point. However, u probably have more experience with reading urdu poetry, so i'll defer to your statement.

I clearly said:

phoenix, on 01 March 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Anyhow, as Marbles stated, there is often a lot of mubalighah in Urdu poetry - you could have it in any poetry as well as prose as long as it doesn't reach the bounds of blasphemy - and people who don't understand it and don't want to understand it either should not be poking their noses into such matters.

Quote

You say "people who don't understand it and don't want to understand it either should not be poking their noses into such matters."

I don't know what has annoyed you or you just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, but I'm asking to clarify a debate I was having with my mother. Now, if asking for the sake of clarification means we "should not be poking their noses into such matters" then Shia Chat would not exist, except for one or two self-righteous threads.

Read my statement as it was meant to be understood:

"people who don't understand it

and

don't want to understand it either".



As to annoyance, i doubt you or anyone can claim to not getting annoyed due to ignorant remarks from those who deem themselves very clever. Now you have a classic example of that in this very thread, a person who does not understand Urdu at all, jumping in to roll out his judgment about this poem, when he has little to go by to provide his ignorant opinion.


And I hope you will take note of the fact that even in my initial post I did speak about inauthentic and fabricated stuff.

As to the manqabat itself, the one I heard earlier (gave the link to that in my earlier post) did not pose an issue. I was not going to offer judgments based on pathetic translations, so i refrained from doing that. However, now that I have heard the one that translation was alluding to, I have clarified in this post, so kindly take note of that as well.

Quote

perhaps I am just sensing hostility that is not there, in which case thanks for your reply and sorry for the accusation.

Yes, you are reading too much in between the lines. If anything, it was directed towards the ones reeking of insincerity and not you because you were genuinely asking, not making statements and claims without anything to support them with.

[Carl]

I'm confused

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

phoenix, on 01 March 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Let's start with the translation part before I go on to the rest of your post:

So, I looked around for more and I found the other parts of the manqabat from the bad translation posted earlier (try not to take it too hard because it's not your translation, OK? :-) ).

-The star descending by his command - this is an incorrect translation.

- Solely understood by Allah - where did the part about the Prophet (saww) go?
And there is a difference between saying, "I am not limited by a name..." and what is there in the manqabat (names are not a constraint upon me).

-"Allah’s mercy has been rested upon me
Allah (swt) has sworn about my coming in the Quran
I am flowing through the Quran with all of it’s words."

Although nothing wrong with the above, there is no such wording in there. Instead says,

'The references for the Truth of my Lord are in my control
Allah has sworn by me in the Qur'an
My laqab is 'La rayb' [one regarding whom there is not a shred of doubt] in the Qur'an'

All of the above we very much have in tafasir.

The controversial parts are:

1) The Lord is the Greater one, that quality is instilled in my son Akbar
??
The Lord is the Akbar, my Creator, the Akbar.

2) The one which iluvAllah had asked about - fashioning the child in the womb (hearing all that here ).


3) The part about mi`raj. There is nothing about being reintroduced; instead saying that he only had permission to shake hands with the Prophet (saww) there. I am, however, not comfortable with that part either because it is understood to be a fabricated Hadith (Imam `Ali (a.s.)  being present in the Heavens at the time of the Prophet (saww)'s mi`raj).



Now onto the rest,

I clearly said:





Read my statement as it was meant to be understood:

"people who don't understand it

and

don't want to understand it either".



As to annoyance, i doubt you or anyone can claim to not getting annoyed due to ignorant remarks from those who deem themselves very clever. Now you have a classic example of that in this very thread, a person who does not understand Urdu at all, jumping in to roll out his judgment about this poem, when he has little to go by to provide his ignorant opinion.


And I hope you will take note of the fact that even in my initial post I did speak about inauthentic and fabricated stuff.

As to the manqabat itself, the one I heard earlier (gave the link to that in my earlier post) did not pose an issue. I was not going to offer judgments based on pathetic translations, so i refrained from doing that. However, now that I have heard the one that translation was alluding to, I have clarified in this post, so kindly take note of that as well.



Yes, you are reading too much in between the lines. If anything, it was directed towards the ones reeking of insincerity and not you because you were genuinely asking, not making statements and claims without anything to support them with.

sorry, my lack of sleep and lack of caffiene gets to me sometimes. I re-read your post with a clearer mind, and I did misread. Sorry   ....coffee makes my life very difficult sometimes. the life of a junkie is a difficult one indeed

Now that i have my addiction satisfied and sleep, I agree with teh translation part. Again, it was just to give a basic jist. and couldn't find another one that was better. Sorry for anyone who got confused becasue of that. wasnt my intention.

As for the miraj part, I won't go into it. If  you were speaking to my father (who used to be a maulana/preacher in his day and is very learned in Islam) you could have a very intellectual discussion. However, I only know what I've been taught, and to argue for or against is not in my ability. HOwever, all i can say is that i've been taught it's not a fabricated hadith. But, most imams do avoid talking about it, because there is little consensus about it. You can believe what you've been taught.

My main goal was not to argue with anyone. I just wanted to know people's opinion on the lines noted.

Thanks for your reply and sorry for the angry face.... feel free to comment on my posts in the future

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

IluvAllah, on 01 March 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

I'm confused

haha. story of my life. sorry iluvAllah, I tend to make things unnecessarily complicated. thanks for your comment!