46 replies to this topic

[Zane]

Bism Allah al Rahman Al Rahim,

I'm sorry if this has been answered before but I did a search and couldn't find a clear answer.

Are Alawi considered shia according to the Ithna Ashari Islamic school of thought?

The reason I ask is because they have some things that goes against what the majority of Shia believe in. Let me copy and paste some of the stuff a brother posted in another thread.


-Reincarnation: this appears to have been an original ibn Nusayri teaching, that one can reincarnate several times. Women do not reincarnate. Men, however, can live 7 lives as faithful `Alawis, and then finally join 'Ali in a celestial heaven. If they are not faithful, they will be reborn as Christians as a punishment. Non-Alawis reincarnate into animals.

-Trinity: `Alawis believe in three incarnations of God: `Ali , Muhammad , and Salman al-Farisi . Each of the three have their own mystical significance, `Ali being the meaning, Muhammed being the name, and Salman al-Farisi being the gate. The short version of the `Alawi shahada is "I testify that there is no God but Ali," (la ilaha illa-`Ali), the long version (`ayn meem seen) which recognizes the full Trinity says: `I have borne witness that there is no God but He, the most High, the object of worship [al-'Ali al-Ma'bud] and that there is no concealing veil (hijab) except the lord Muhammad, the object of praise, (as-Sayyid Muhmmad al-Mahmud), and there is not Bab except the lord Salman al-Farisi`

-Rejection of the Qur'an: `Alawis reject the literal meanings of the Qur'an, and instead emphasize spiritual, mystical, and metaphorical practices and sayings.

-Celebration of Christian and Persian holidays: Since the religion had a long standing in Christendom, they adopted some Christian celebrations including Christmas, Easter, Palm Sunday, and ahve their own unique practices for these days, which include the communion associated with Catholic tradition. `Alawis also celebrate Nawruz, marking the Persian new year.

-Mysticism: In the `Alawiyya, there are many connections with the Isma'iiyya, as they both view the Islamic shari`ah esoterically and allegorically. They believe in a hidden meaning behind the commands, and take these concepts over their literal meanings. `Alawis even believe that these secret meanings were hidden from the Prophet , and was revealed to the Imams and ibn Nusayr instead.

[ShiaBen]

They are not formally Shiite.

The Alawite, some portions of the Alevi, some handful of other groups are special sects.

Most of these sects you have to be born into.

And they have different expectations than your typical 12ver.

Edited by ShiaBen, 29 February 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[Zane]

Thank you for your reply brother. I am curious though, because someone told me that Ayatollah Khamanei himself said that they are Shia. Is this true?

I have tried searching the net but couldn't find anything.

[Saladin]

Zane, on 29 February 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Bism Allah al Rahman Al Rahim,

I'm sorry if this has been answered before but I did a search and couldn't find a clear answer.

Are Alawi considered shia according to the Ithna Ashari Islamic school of thought?

The reason I ask is because they have some things that goes against what the majority of Shia believe in. Let me copy and paste some of the stuff a brother posted in another thread.


-Reincarnation: this appears to have been an original ibn Nusayri teaching, that one can reincarnate several times. Women do not reincarnate. Men, however, can live 7 lives as faithful `Alawis, and then finally join 'Ali in a celestial heaven. If they are not faithful, they will be reborn as Christians as a punishment. Non-Alawis reincarnate into animals.

-Trinity: `Alawis believe in three incarnations of God: `Ali , Muhammad , and Salman al-Farisi . Each of the three have their own mystical significance, `Ali being the meaning, Muhammed being the name, and Salman al-Farisi being the gate. The short version of the `Alawi shahada is "I testify that there is no God but Ali," (la ilaha illa-`Ali), the long version (`ayn meem seen) which recognizes the full Trinity says: `I have borne witness that there is no God but He, the most High, the object of worship [al-'Ali al-Ma'bud] and that there is no concealing veil (hijab) except the lord Muhammad, the object of praise, (as-Sayyid Muhmmad al-Mahmud), and there is not Bab except the lord Salman al-Farisi`

-Rejection of the Qur'an: `Alawis reject the literal meanings of the Qur'an, and instead emphasize spiritual, mystical, and metaphorical practices and sayings.

-Celebration of Christian and Persian holidays: Since the religion had a long standing in Christendom, they adopted some Christian celebrations including Christmas, Easter, Palm Sunday, and ahve their own unique practices for these days, which include the communion associated with Catholic tradition. `Alawis also celebrate Nawruz, marking the Persian new year.

-Mysticism: In the `Alawiyya, there are many connections with the Isma'iiyya, as they both view the Islamic shari`ah esoterically and allegorically. They believe in a hidden meaning behind the commands, and take these concepts over their literal meanings. `Alawis even believe that these secret meanings were hidden from the Prophet , and was revealed to the Imams and ibn Nusayr instead.

A person with such beliefs should not be considered even a Muslim.

[power]

No, they are not Shia as there fiqh is not the same as the 12ers

[Alejandro Sosa]

Why don't u read the Quran and tell us what it says about shirk, then answer ur own question

[Rasul]

They are Sufis... they dance  'it is considered as worship'





Allah, Muhammad and Ali

Alevis believe in the unity of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali, but this is not a trinity composed of God and the historical figures of Muhammad and Ali. Rather, Muhammad and Ali are representations of divine energies, the first of which is Allah.

In Alevi doctrine, Allah is divine consciousness which first creates and gives shape to the Kull-i Nafs, a latent passive energy existing within Godhead. Kull-i Nafs is actually the apparent power of God to give life form, almost like a womb in that it is a place of manifestation where the concealed potential within Allah can be known and made visible. Thus, the physical universe is a mirror image of Allah. Kull-i Nafs reflects the spirit or divine consciousness of Allah. Nafs is Arabic for breath and it is the breath that binds the spirit with Allah. Kull-i Nafs is also envisioned as the Universal Soul or Soul Body as it is the divine consciousness reflected through the breath of Allah which gives this soul its own life and forms the Universal Human, the prototypal human, made manifest in Muhammad. However, the prototypal human is not male or female, but is a perfect interplay between the two in much the same way as the Taoists envision the Taiji. Within this prototypal human active energies contain passive and passive contain active. The light or Nur which links the two together is represented by Ali.
So in Alevi thought there are three creative principles, the latent breath or Allah, the prototypal human which is made up of active and passive principles or Muhammad and the divine light or Ali. In Christianity these three principles are called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.^[11] Likewise, in Alevi belief the Father is likened to Allah, the Son to Muhammad and the Holy Spirit to Ali. Similar trinitarian conceptions appear in Judaism, with Crown, Queen and King, in Hinduism, with Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu, and in ancient Egypt they took the names Osiris, Isis and Horus,^[12][13] among other examples (see Triple deity).
In Alevi writings there are many references to the unity of Muhammad and Ali, such as: Ali Muhammed'dir, Muhammed Ali Gördüm bir elmadır, elhamdü-lillâh Ali is Muhammed, Muhammed is Ali; I saw they make up a whole apple, all praise is for Allah^[14]
The phrase "For the love of God-Muhammed-Ali” (Hak-Muhammed-Ali aşkına), is common to several Alevi prayers.
For some, the linking of the three together seems polytheistic and not in line with monotheistic Islamic teachings, but Alevis counter that such people do not understand the batini meaning of the Alevi equation of Allah-Muhammet-Ali.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevism

Edited by Rasul, 29 February 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[AR2011]

theyre not even muslim

[Goku]

Wow I did not even know they has such views... May such people feel the wrath on Day of Judgment. A trinity of God? Muhammas saw and Ali as being god?! How are these people even considered Muslims?

[Ayubi786]

??? I thought they are shia but by looks of it some of you dont consider them muslims?? I thought ISLAMIC republic of iran supports them? Does the government of iran support non muslims against muslims?? So much for the shia islamic crescent i oftenly used to hear on press tv and so much for the ISLAM in the republic who support non muslims

[Alejandro Sosa]

bro

how can these people be considered Muslim if ascribe partners to Allah?

If these guys are considered shia, it means shias aren't Muslims.

Use some aql man

[zakzaki]

Alejandro Sosa, on 02 March 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

bro

how can these people be considered Muslim if ascribe partners to Allah?

If these guys are considered shia, it means shias aren't Muslims.

Use some aql man

O Takfiri, watch your mouth and why you consider only yourself as a Muslim and rest all are Kafirs.

You saying like

"If Sufis are considered Sunni, it means Sunnis aren't Muslims."

[Alejandro Sosa]

zakzaki, on 02 March 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

O Takfiri, watch your mouth and why you consider only yourself as a Muslim and rest all are Kafirs.

You saying like

"If Sufis are considered Sunni, it means Sunnis aren't Muslims."

Lol @ takfiri.

Some of the ignorance in here is unbelievable.

If you consider Alawis Muslims, you don't know what Islam is.

May Allah curse people who say Muhammad (sawa) and Ali are his incarnations. Ayadabillah

[zakzaki]

Alejandro Sosa, on 02 March 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Lol @ takfiri.

Some of the ignorance in here is unbelievable.

If you consider Alawis Muslims, you don't know what Islam is.

May Allah curse people who say Muhammad (sawa) and Ali are his incarnations. Ayadabillah

Proud man do not be so proud about you only being Muslim.  Only Allah can decide who is a true Muslim.  and in between I am not supporting Alawis.  But do not give that Takfiri fatwa so easily.  They are some blind guys who think only they are clean and rest all unclean.

[Alejandro Sosa]

go and read the Qu'ran you ignorant little man.

[Abu Muslim]

power, on 29 February 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

No, they are not Shia as there fiqh is not the same as the 12ers

That wouldn't mean they are not shias. It only means they are not 12er Shia.

[zakzaki]

Alejandro Sosa, on 02 March 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

go and read the Qu'ran you ignorant little man.

Have you ever read the Quran.  The worst sin is being proud. That is what made Satan Satan? about all are infeiror and he is superior.  That's what you doing by labelling everybody as Kafir and you only Muslim by your posts and cheerleading.

[Alejandro Sosa]

I'm not being proud at all.

ASSOCIATING PARTNERS WITH Allah SWT IS A SIN, AND MEANS YOU ARE NOT A MUSLIM. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS OR AGREE WITH THIS, BECOME A CHRISTIAN OR A HINDU.

[Gypsy]

Abu Muslim, on 02 March 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

That wouldn't mean they are not shias. It only means they are not 12er Shia.

They deify a trinity of Muhammad, Ali and Salman. They worship men as God. You are only Muslim if you worship Allah swt as your God.

The Alawi are Ghulats.

[AidAsSadik]

Salam.Alawis are sufi order found by Hacci Baktash Wali rh.a.Today people who say that they folow Hacci Baktash,are far awey from his teachings.There is many sects in alevism,some of them not pray at all,some of them say that Allah,Muhammad s.a.w.a and Ali a.s are one soul,Auzubillah,some of them say that Muhammad s.a.w.a,Ali a.s,and Salman r.a was same person...etc.They have wrong akida,and they are not Shias for sure.But I admit them as a Muslims,becausse evryone who say sahadah is muslim for me.But Allah know the best.

[Abu Muslim]

Gypsy, on 02 March 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

They deify a trinity of Muhammad, Ali and Salman. They worship men as God. You are only Muslim if you worship Allah swt as your God.

The Alawi are Ghulats.

They are shia that have gone into extremes in love for Ali.

[titumir]

AidAsSadik, on 02 March 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Salam.Alawis are sufi order found by Hacci Baktash Wali rh.a.Today people who say that they folow Hacci Baktash,are far awey from his teachings.There is many sects in alevism,some of them not pray at all,some of them say that Allah,Muhammad s.a.w.a and Ali a.s are one soul,Auzubillah,some of them say that Muhammad s.a.w.a,Ali a.s,and Salman r.a was same person...etc.They have wrong akida,and they are not Shias for sure.But I admit them as a Muslims,becausse evryone who say sahadah is muslim for me.But Allah know the best.

That is Bektashi Sufis. I think the Alawis we are referring to are the Alawis of Syria, who are also called Nusayris. Of course, its confusing because everyone wants to be called Alawi (descended from Ali )

[Gypsy]

Abu Muslim, on 02 March 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

They are shia that have gone into extremes in love for Ali.

Shias don't go in their extreme love for Ali. Those are Ghulats. And Ghulats are not Shias.

[Abu Muslim]

Gypsy, on 02 March 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Shias don't go in their extreme love for Ali. Those are Ghulats. And Ghulats are not Shias.

And ghulat's believe 12ers don't have enough love for Ali.