22 replies to this topic

[Christianlady]

Hello,

I have been reading The Great War for Civilisation by Robert Fisk. It is a very, very sad book. I have learned of the CIA's involvement in torture, and I hate that they did that. I hope and pray the nation I was born in changes for the better, and that torture will someday be eradicated from USA's dealings. Humans torturing humans or animals is evil, because intentionally inflicting pain on another living being is cruelty and desecrating the Creation God has made.

So, my question is, when is torture acceptable to you? And why?

I personally believe that torture is never ever acceptable, though I understand why people would think that torturing a kidnapper who is the only person who knows where their victim is would be acceptable, in order to try to extract the information of the victim's whereabouts is. However, I prefer survelliance methods as opposed to torture. I think it's much better to invest in video cameras and tracking devices than in torturing a person for information. Also, investigating DNA leads and using trained dogs for sniffing out where a person could be are also good ways to find a person.

One reason why I believe torture is never acceptable is because I am a firm believer that God is the Judge who will give to everyone what they deserve after they have died. To those who have tortured others, I believe God will allow them to be in pain in the fires of hell, God has the punishment for evil covered. God is the Creator and He is more than capable of punishing His Creation without human help.

Anyways, when is torture acceptable to you? And, what kind of torture? I will not be commenting on your viewpoints, though I might ask questions. I do however, respect your viewpoint even if it disagrees with mine.

Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

[Lanatin]

Only God tortures those who did not accept His mock sacrifice.

[Pascal]

Recently i read a very good book, "The pig that wants to be eaten". IT was a series of philosophical thought experiments exploring different areas of philsophy. I very much recommend it.

It posed this question among many: Say you know you have a terrorist, you are absolutely convinced he is a terrorist and has planted bombs in schools across the country or will blow up a major landmark. Thousands of people will die. He will only give up the location if you torture him, would you do it?

Theres a couple of problems with this of course though. For one we can never be sure. Thats why the death penalty should also be prohibited, you cant be sure if the guy you are executing is actually guilty. In the USA where these things are routine (https://en.wikipedia...ngful_execution) many people have been wronfully executed. Same could apply to torture i guess.

The problem with torture is when you start applying it wholesale and on a large scale, you will torture innocent people. People will realise you're tortuing lots of people and speak out, its clearly wrong.

However, in a case where you are absolutely certain that it will save lives and you are absolutely or very close to certain that the person you have in custody is the right person, i think it is acceptable if every other means have failed.

It's just like triage in the medical profession. Triage occurs in disaster situations, Imagine there was a massive earthquake or a terrorist attack and you were a doctor on the field. You cant save everyone. You categorise people based on how likely they are to survive. It's a waste to work on those that will almost certainly die, you make sure they're comfortable but the reality of the situation means you have to be practical. The world isn't always nice and happy. You let these people die to save the people who have the best chance of being saved.

Similar with the idea of torture, its nice to be idealistic but the situation calls for practicality. I think it should be allowed in the utmost of dire situations if all attempts have failed and we are very sure. Of course in practice this would limit it to very few if any actual cases of torture taking place. The kind of largescale torture we see in the USA clearly isn't acceptable for the reasons i've outlined though.

There was another question: Samira is in prison. You are the guard. You know she is wrongfully imprisoned and is innocent, she is a political prisoner. They want you to torture and kill her, do you do it? If you refuse they'll shoot both you and her. If you do it you live. You come to reason that you can make it much less painful and much less quick for her if you carry it out yourself. If you refuse, you'll die and she'll probably be tortured and suffer much else under another person. So, is it acceptable to do it?

This is a sticky situation because you're the person involved. You're the agent.

Its sort of like the old dillemma of "is it ok for one innocent life to die to save 1000" but with the modification "if you could save 10 000 people by killing 1 innocent person would you do it?" the second one seems a lot more repulsive to us for some reason. I guess thats because we're the agent carrying it out but it seems somehow more fine if an innocent person happens to die by someone elses hand and we're not involved. Food for thought i guess.

Edited by kingpomba, 21 February 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[Hassan_S]

In order to answer your question, we have to understand the concept of morality...
What one may think is right others may think it's wrong for different reasons

So how do we reach a conclusion?

You see our limited knowledge prevents us from knowing the secrets of the universe, the human body and other elements within the universe. Therefore the only one who has the right to say whether something is right or wrong is the one who created the system of cause and effect and knows it better than anyone, the secrets to the universe and everything else, the only one with this knowledge is God. The supreme being who has an overview of everything.

Bear in mind that God does not prohibit something for no reason....This in my opinion (although my opinion doesn't matter) is what morality is, and this is when I came to accept certain laws that Islam has such as It's punishments...

The truth is that what we don't know can fill many books...

Peace be with you

[ShiaBen]

The Torture Never Stops!

[titumir]

In my opinion torture is acceptable for a torturer. I really hate the very concept of torture, that of the (relatively) strong causing deliberate pain to the weak. I don't think its ever acceptable. The various scenarios pro-torture people bring up (terrorist and ticking time bomb, etc...), I don't really buy it because such a scenario is extremely unlikely, and even if it did happen, the terrorist could just give the wrong info.

Torture is for nasty coward bullies. Any one convicted of torture, or ordering it, ought to be tortured and humiliated himself in public.

Torture = Gang Rape

[Christianlady]

Recently i read a very good book, "The pig that wants to be eaten". IT was a series of philosophical thought experiments exploring different areas of philsophy. I very much recommend it.

Hello Kingpomba,

I have been given many recommendations of good books lately. I will put that on my list thanks.

It posed this question among many: Say you know you have a terrorist, you are absolutely convinced he is a terrorist and has planted bombs in schools across the country or will blow up a major landmark. Thousands of people will die. He will only give up the location if you torture him, would you do it?

That is a tough scenario. I personally wouldn't; I would just pray and do everything else I could do that stays in my guidelines of morals in order to rescue the children. God does do miracles; I do believe that sometimes, God has not allowed bombs to detonate, for example.

Theres a couple of problems with this of course though. For one we can never be sure. Thats why the death penalty should also be prohibited, you cant be sure if the guy you are executing is actually guilty. In the USA where these things are routine (https://en.wikipedia...ngful_execution) many people have been wronfully executed. Same could apply to torture i guess.

It is so sad. I have read many horrible stories of people, especially of different ethnicities, being falsely accused and condemned to life in prison or death, with no evidence - just hatred against them condemning them.

The problem with torture is when you start applying it wholesale and on a large scale, you will torture innocent people. People will realise you're tortuing lots of people and speak out, its clearly wrong.

I think one of the worst problems with torture is that once a person starts intentionally inflicting pain on another person or on an animal, that person loses innocence, purity, beauty, and goodness of the soul, and the soul is instead replaced by a perverted, ugly, stone-like, foul-smelling sore that is so hard to heal. A person with a perverted soul has no problem hurting innocent people, torturing helpless living creatures and trying to make them as ugly and broken as the torturer's soul is. Do you understand what I mean please?

However, in a case where you are absolutely certain that it will save lives and you are absolutely or very close to certain that the person you have in custody is the right person, i think it is acceptable if every other means have failed.

I understand. It's just to me a horrible shame to stoop to evil in order to stop evil, you know?

It's just like triage in the medical profession. Triage occurs in disaster situations, Imagine there was a massive earthquake or a terrorist attack and you were a doctor on the field. You cant save everyone. You categorise people based on how likely they are to survive. It's a waste to work on those that will almost certainly die, you make sure they're comfortable but the reality of the situation means you have to be practical. The world isn't always nice and happy. You let these people die to save the people who have the best chance of being saved.

What I think is so beautiful is when people decide to help others, instead of wanting to hurt them. For example, one of my "heroes", is Desmond T. Doss, a medic, got off a stretcher after being injured in order for another man to take his place. His life is a miracle in many levels. What would greatly help the world is if more people were "nice and happy", and cared for others.

Similar with the idea of torture, its nice to be idealistic but the situation calls for practicality. I think it should be allowed in the utmost of dire situations if all attempts have failed and we are very sure. Of course in practice this would limit it to very few if any actual cases of torture taking place. The kind of largescale torture we see in the USA clearly isn't acceptable for the reasons i've outlined though.

I had no idea that the CIA was involved in torture. I pray to God that the CIA repents of this and uses more humane means to protect the USA, instead of being inhumane. One thing also that concerns me about torture is that people under torture will say anything, even something untrue, in order to make the pain stop. So, torture is not the best way to get information, because so many people lie under torture, just because they want to no longer be in pain, you know?

There was another question: Samira is in prison. You are the guard. You know she is wrongfully imprisoned and is innocent, she is a political prisoner. They want you to torture and kill her, do you do it? If you refuse they'll shoot both you and her. If you do it you live. You come to reason that you can make it much less painful and much less quick for her if you carry it out yourself. If you refuse, you'll die and she'll probably be tortured and suffer much else under another person. So, is it acceptable to do it?

I think one's belief comes into play in many of these situations. For example, Christians are taught by Jesus the following:

John 15 (NIV) - words of Jesus; I boldened them.

"¹² My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. ¹³ Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends."

So, if I were in this scenario, my spirit would be having a talk with God's Holy Spirit, and I would be asking Him for strength to help me die gracefully for this innocent lady, and that God would please rescue us if it was His will. The reason is because my goal in life is to please God, not to live longer and do evil. It is better, in my beliefs, to live a short time and live in obedience to God, then to live a long live disobeying God.

This is a sticky situation because you're the person involved. You're the agent.

Its sort of like the old dillemma of "is it ok for one innocent life to die to save 1000" but with the modification "if you could save 10 000 people by killing 1 innocent person would you do it?" the second one seems a lot more repulsive to us for some reason. I guess thats because we're the agent carrying it out but it seems somehow more fine if an innocent person happens to die by someone elses hand and we're not involved. Food for thought i guess.

Yeah, it is food for thought. Thanks for the recommendation and interesting reply.

Peace and God bless you

In order to answer your question, we have to understand the concept of morality...
What one may think is right others may think it's wrong for different reasons

Hello Hassan S,

True. I have come to learn that especially through discussions with people who believe abortion is ok, which frankly to me is very immoral. However you are right, people have different concepts of morality. That is a very good point. People and people's ideas are very diverse.

So how do we reach a conclusion?

You see our limited knowledge prevents us from knowing the secrets of the universe, the human body and other elements within the universe. Therefore the only one who has the right to say whether something is right or wrong is the one who created the system of cause and effect and knows it better than anyone, the secrets to the universe and everything else, the only one with this knowledge is God. The supreme being who has an overview of everything.

Understood and agreed

Bear in mind that God does not prohibit something for no reason....This in my opinion (although my opinion doesn't matter) is what morality is, and this is when I came to accept certain laws that Islam has such as It's punishments...

When discussing, your opinion does matter, and I appreciate your giving your opinion. You do have an excellent point. In the Bible, God did not specifically prohibit torture, though He did give punishments, which included death, for certain acts of disobedience for the children of Israel. Torture, however, was not a part of this, unless one considers death by stoning to be torture... however, as I am thinking of this, it is true that God did not command Moses to torture criminals, but rather to put to death (much of the time stoning is mentioned as the way to put to death) those who broke certain laws. So, in this sense, God did permit the torture that comes with being stoned to death, hmm? It is important to note though that other means of torture, including rape, water torture, and those kinds of things are not a part of the commands God gave to Moses for the Israelites.

The truth is that what we don't know can fill many books...

So true!!!

Peace be with you

Peace be with you too, and thank you for contributing to this discussion. God bless you

In my opinion torture is acceptable for a torturer. I really hate the very concept of torture, that of the (relatively) strong causing deliberate pain to the weak. I don't think its ever acceptable.

Hello Titumir,

I hate the concept of torture too, and I don't think those who torture others are strong. I think they are perverted souls with a sadistic mentality. It is possible that they are under demonic influence as well.

The various scenarios pro-torture people bring up (terrorist and ticking time bomb, etc...), I don't really buy it because such a scenario is extremely unlikely, and even if it did happen, the terrorist could just give the wrong info.

Agreed. Plus, when a group of people torture and kill another group of people, the survivors of the group of people being tortured and killed are oftentimes going to want to get revenge on those who tortured and killed their loved ones. So in reality, torture produces more enemies because it hurts and breeds hatred and revenge in the hearts of the survivors, who have the screams of their loved ones in their ears and hearts.

Torture is for nasty coward bullies.

Agreed

Any one convicted of torture, or ordering it, ought to be tortured and humiliated himself in public.

Torture = Gang Rape

If f the torturer was your brother or close friend, would you still believe the same above? Or, would you beg for him to repent? (This is a hypothetical question only; I am not accusing your brother - if you have one- or close friend of anything.)

Peace and God bless you

[Hassan_S]

So how do we reach a conclusion?

Thank you for the reply and may I say what an intresting topic this is. This topic in particular needs to be addressed more in order for us to come to an understanding

Well...In order to come to an undrstanding we need to look at the similarities between the Christianity, Jewdaism and Islam

All three of these groups believe that the originator of morality has to be a higher being i.e. God as I've mentioned previousely, so we all derive our rights from wrongs from the same being (although we agree to disagree on some aspects). Plus looking at the 3, we actually have a lot in common, e.g. the headscarf is a sign of modesty in Christianity which is why Nuns wear it (correct me if I'm wrong) and we both recieved this idea from God. Stealing, lying etc can be mentioned here as well...

In essence, our laws are pretty similar and there will always be those aspects where we differ, (which I'm sure we can understand the other person's view.

We believe that when the Mahdi appears, he will rule the world and judge everyone according to their religion and holy book e.g. If a Muslim steals, he will judge them according to the Quran and if a Christian steals, he will judge them according to the Bible.. So in terms of a conclusion I believe this is one way to live in diversity and tolerance..

Peace be with you

[Ruq]

One of the problems with torture is that the information can be so unreliable. If you have a ticking time bomb situation any possible location the bomber gives is worth a go. But in a situation where you want someone to admit to guilt for something, its no way of ascertaining truth. When you need truthful and accurate information its less reliable and the ppl doing the torturing can unwittingly lead the victim also.

[repenter]

May I ask what this is doing in the Iran section of the Forum? Unless you have an agenda or something specific in mind you like to share?

[Ruq]

May I ask what this is doing in the Iran section of the Forum? Unless you have an agenda or something specific in mind you like to share?

I was wondering also

[Christianlady]

So how do we reach a conclusion?

Thank you for the reply and may I say what an intresting topic this is. This topic in particular needs to be addressed more in order for us to come to an understanding

Hello Hassan_S,

Agreed

Well...In order to come to an undrstanding we need to look at the similarities between the Christianity, Jewdaism and Islam

All three of these groups believe that the originator of morality has to be a higher being i.e. God as I've mentioned previousely, so we all derive our rights from wrongs from the same being (although we agree to disagree on some aspects).

Agreed

Plus looking at the 3, we actually have a lot in common, e.g. the headscarf is a sign of modesty in Christianity which is why Nuns wear it (correct me if I'm wrong) and we both recieved this idea from God. Stealing, lying etc can be mentioned here as well...

I am a Protestant, not a Catholic, so I am not sure about why exactly Nuns wear a head covering while other Christian Catholic ladies don't. That would be an interesting question to ask a Catholic. However, long time ago, many women in many cultures wore head coverings or hats of some kind, and some still do. One thing that has interested me for awhile is that in the Tanakh (the Jewish Scriptures), there is no command for a head covering. Many Christians today see it as a cultural tradition.

Stealing and lying are disobeying God yes and are very clearly outlined as such in both the Tanakh and the Bible, and in the Quran as well, yes?

In essence, our laws are pretty similar and there will always be those aspects where we differ, (which I'm sure we can understand the other person's view.

Yes I am glad you see this and I wish more people on the forum could see this as well.

We believe that when the Mahdi appears, he will rule the world and judge everyone according to their religion and holy book e.g. If a Muslim steals, he will judge them according to the Quran and if a Christian steals, he will judge them according to the Bible.. So in terms of a conclusion I believe this is one way to live in diversity and tolerance..

That is very interesting. Christians believe that Jesus will come again and rule the world. However, I asked a Shia Muslim before I think on this forum if the Mahdi is Jesus, and if I remember correctly, the answer was no, right? Do you believe that Mahdi is Jesus? or is Mahdi someone else?

Peace be with you

Peace and God bless you and thanks for your courteous and thought-provoking replies

One of the problems with torture is that the information can be so unreliable. If you have a ticking time bomb situation any possible location the bomber gives is worth a go. But in a situation where you want someone to admit to guilt for something, its no way of ascertaining truth. When you need truthful and accurate information its less reliable and the ppl doing the torturing can unwittingly lead the victim also.

Hello Ruqaya's Amal,

100% agree

Peace and God bless you

May I ask what this is doing in the Iran section of the Forum? Unless you have an agenda or something specific in mind you like to share?

Hello Repenter,

If it's in the wrong section, please feel free to move it. I was merely posting in the Iranian section when I thought about asking this question. It's interesting to me how some Muslims on this forum are very suspicious and skeptical of any little thing anyone who believes differently than them writes or even where they write it.

I should have paid better attention to psychology class at university.

Oh well, life is a learning experience.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 25 February 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[Pascal]

Just on a purely politico-legal perspective, if you look at the United Nations Convention Against Torture:

• No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

Which most of the world is a signatory to, including the USA interestingly enough.

I'd like to know their logic behind this (not that im questioning it, just be interesting to know). I think it might be about making a principled stand, that torture is never OK under any circumstances, no matter what the greater good is. Perhaps theres an idea it leads to a slippery slope as well, if you use it once or make it even slightly allowable under what you call an emergency, whats stopping it being used again...and again....and again and becomming accepable and commonplace.

https://en.wikipedia...oldid=478529132 Is probably also a useful read.

Edited by kingpomba, 25 February 2012 - 10:57 AM.

[aliasghark]

May I ask what this is doing in the Iran section of the Forum? Unless you have an agenda or something specific in mind you like to share?

And it's far from the first time... one only needs to check the past few weeks of this poster's threads to understand what's going on.

[repenter]

Hello Repenter,

If it's in the wrong section, please feel free to move it. I was merely posting in the Iranian section when I thought about asking this question. It's interesting to me how some Muslims on this forum are very suspicious and skeptical of any little thing anyone who believes differently than them writes or even where they write it.

I should have paid better attention to psychology class at university.

Oh well, life is a learning experience.

Peace and God bless you

If it's in the wrong section, please feel free to move it. I was merely posting in the Iranian section when I thought about asking this question

Sorry, don't believe you, hence why i asked the question. And yes, i will move the thread.

It's interesting to me how some Muslims on this forum are very suspicious and skeptical of any little thing anyone who believes differently than them writes or even where they write it.

It has nothing to do with Muslims. It has to do with Iranians, as you posted it in Iranian sub forum and i'm Iranian. And yes, i am suspicious of why you put it here while not even mentioning Iran in your opneing post. Hence the question.

I should have paid better attention to psychology class at university.
Oh well, life is a learning experience.

You don't need a phd in psychology to understand simple human behaviour.

Edited by repenter, 25 February 2012 - 07:57 PM.

[Hassan_S]

That is very interesting. Christians believe that Jesus will come again and rule the world. However, I asked a Shia Muslim before I think on this forum if the Mahdi is Jesus, and if I remember correctly, the answer was no, right? Do you believe that Mahdi is Jesus? or is Mahdi someone else?

The Mahdi we believe is the final successor of our Prophet (s)who will re-appear one day to establish justice on earth. Yes, we believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) who is his distant cousin will also return with him

I am a Protestant, not a Catholic, so I am not sure about why exactly Nuns wear a head covering while other Christian Catholic ladies don't. That would be an interesting question to ask a Catholic. However, long time ago, many women in many cultures wore head coverings or hats of some kind, and some still do. One thing that has interested me for awhile is that in the Tanakh (the Jewish Scriptures), there is no command for a head covering. Many Christians today see it as a cultural tradition.

Very interesting indeed, may I ask what the difference is between a Catholic and a Protestant?

Stealing and lying are disobeying God yes and are very clearly outlined as such in both the Tanakh and the Bible, and in the Quran as well, yes?

You are correct..

Peace be with you sister

[Christianlady]

Just on a purely politico-legal perspective, if you look at the United Nations Convention Against Torture:

• No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

Hello Kingpomba,

Thanks for the links. I see that you are very passionate about this issue, which is great. You are not an American, right? I do wish there were more Americans who are passionate about taking a stand against torture, and striving to make sure Americans do not torture other people. I am writing a blog about this which I hope to paste on my facebook soon. Do you have facebook?

Which most of the world is a signatory to, including the USA interestingly enough.

I'd like to know their logic behind this (not that im questioning it, just be interesting to know). I think it might be about making a principled stand, that torture is never OK under any circumstances, no matter what the greater good is. Perhaps theres an idea it leads to a slippery slope as well, if you use it once or make it even slightly allowable under what you call an emergency, whats stopping it being used again...and again....and again and becomming accepable and commonplace.

That makes sense.

https://en.wikipedia...oldid=478529132 Is probably also a useful read.

Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

Sorry, don't believe you,

Hello Repenter,

You're forgiven. It's obvious you don't know me.

hence why i asked the question.

Normally people don't ask questions to those who they have already decided that they don't believe. I for example do not ask questions to people who I do not trust to answer as to what they think. When I ask a person a question (or a group of people a question, such as in this thread), I do so because I trust that people will reply as to what they think, and I have no reason to think they would by lying about what they think.

And yes, i will move the thread.

Did I put the thread about the Iranian pastor in the Iranian section? I don't remember if I started that thread in the general politic or Iranian section, but it's in the Iranian section now, I think.

It has nothing to do with Muslims. It has to do with Iranians,

Most Iranians are Muslims, correct? If most Iranians are Muslims, then how does being Iranian (for the majority of Iranians) have nothing to do with it? Also, what is the likelihood, percentage-wise, of a child in Iran being born into a Muslim family, verses the likelihood, percentage-wise, of a child in the USA being born in a Non Muslim family? And why?

as you posted it in Iranian sub forum and i'm Iranian.

Where you born in a Muslim family? Just curious.

And yes, i am suspicious of why you put it here while not even mentioning Iran in your opneing post. Hence the question.

And you do not believe why, so why ask the question? For example, it would be senseless for me to ask you if you were born in a Muslim family, if I did not believe your answer, hmm? Why would I ask you something if I have already predetermined not to believe you?

You don't need a phd in psychology to understand simple human behaviour.

Humans are diverse, and it is obvious we are having cultural difficulties here.

By the way, do you currently live in the USA? I read in the brothers' section the El Cid verses Repenter thread. Are you going to Texas? My Mom was born there, and in Southern Texas I learned Spanish. Do you interact often with Christians in the USA? (My family, by the way, is Christian.) Many Christians believe that one reason why God has blessed the USA is because of Judaistic-Christian principles.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 27 February 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Christianlady]

The Mahdi we believe is the final successor of our Prophet (s)who will re-appear one day to establish justice on earth. Yes, we believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) who is his distant cousin will also return with him

Hello Hassan_S,

That is interesting. Do you believe that the final succesor of Muhammad will marry a Jewish person, a descendant of King David, and Jesus will be reborn as his cousin? Jesus is a descendant of King David, which is vitally important to him being the Messiah. A person who is not a descendant of King David is not the true Messiah, because God gave King David the promise of the Messiah being from his family line.

Very interesting indeed, may I ask what the difference is between a Catholic and a Protestant?

That is a very serious and deep question. Because I am a Protestant, my answer will be naturally biased for the Protestant side, so in order to have a fair perspective, tt would be good for you to ask this to a Catholic as well, and an "outsider's" person - an Atheist or Agnostic, in order to get an objective side too.

To understand the differences between Catholics and Protestants, we need to go back in time to Jesus and his 12 apostles. Jesus chose 12 apostles to lead his people (Matthew 10:1-4). One of the apostles betrayed him, as Jesus foreknew. However, in Acts 1, the apostles prayed and God showed them the apostle who would take the betrayer's place.

Jesus chose Peter to be the leader of the apostles. (Matthew 16:13-28) Catholics believe that Peter was the first Pope. Pope is a term that means "Father." However, many Protestants (Protestants are very diverse) believe that only God is our Spiritual Father, not a man. Jesus says the following, accounted in Matthew 23 (NIV) - I boldened some.

""⁸ “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. ⁹ And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. ¹⁰ Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. ¹¹ The greatest among you will be your servant. ¹² For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

Jesus himself called God "Father", so God is our Father, not a man whose title is the Pope.

John 20 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"¹⁷ Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
¹⁸ Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her."

So, one of the biggest differences between Catholics and Protestants are that Catholics follow a Pope (who have traditionally been Gentile leaders, though they claim Peter - who is Jewish -was the first Pope) and Protestants do not believe in the idea of a Pope.

Another difference is that Catholics make the sign of the cross, which most Protestants do not do. Protestants do not see evidence in the Bible of the apostles Jesus chose making the sign of the cross.

Another difference is that most Catholics follow a universal schedule, which is given to them by the leaders. However, Protestants emphasize believers studying the Bible for themselves, which is how Protestants came to exist in the first place, by studying. The Protestant Reformation began for the most part in Europe, and Martin Luther, a former Catholic monk, is credited with being one of the main people who began the Reformation. Martin Luther was studying the Bible and became convicted of many things that he saw the Catholic church was doing, that was not based on the Bible. One of those issues was (and still is) of forbidding priests, nuns, and monks from getting married.

Peter, the leader of the apostles, was married. How we know this is because Jesus healed his mother-in-law. (Matthew 8:14) So, another difference is that Catholics forbid the priests, nuns, and monks from getting married, while Protestants do not. Protestants actually encourage Christian leaders to marry a wife and to be faithful to her. (Ephesians 5:21-33, Titus 1:6-9, 1 Timothy 3:13)

Another difference is that Catholics confess their sins to a priest, where most Protestants believe we are to confess our sins to God, and if we have sinned against someone, to confess to that person and ask forgiveness.

There are many other differences as well, but this is actually all a different topic than torture! However sad to say, both Catholics and Protestants have in the past been guilty of torturing each other as well as people of other beliefs. It is so sad when people who believe in God and say they follow Jesus do not obey Jesus's teachings to love and to do good to and to pray for others, and to bless them.


Luke 6 (NIV) - I boldened some of Jesus' teachings.

²⁷ “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, ²⁸ bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. ²⁹ If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. ³⁰ Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. ³¹ Do to others as you would have them do to you.
³² “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. ³³ And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. ³⁴ And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. ³⁵ But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. ³⁶ Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Judging Others

³⁷ “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. ³⁸ Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

Back to the topic at hand, torture, Luke 6 and Matthew 5, which accounts teachings of Jesus, have shaped my beliefs concerning that torture is unacceptable. Jesus taught to love, to pray for, to bless, to do good to even one's enemies. Torturing is not loving a person. Torturing has nothing to do with praying for or doing good to someone. So, torture is against Jesus' commands. Sad to say, many people who have called themselves Christians are guilty of torturing other people. I don't understand why because Jesus' teachings are so clear about what direction to go.. to love to prayer to Him, to doing good to others for His glory. Torture is contrary to that.

Peace be with you sister

Peace be with you also, and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 27 February 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[Hassan_S]

Hello Hassan_S,

That is interesting. Do you believe that the final succesor of Muhammad will marry a Jewish person, a descendant of King David, and Jesus will be reborn as his cousin? Jesus is a descendant of King David, which is vitally important to him being the Messiah. A person who is not a descendant of King David is not the true Messiah, because God gave King David the promise of the Messiah being from his family line.



That is a very serious and deep question. Because I am a Protestant, my answer will be naturally biased for the Protestant side, so in order to have a fair perspective, tt would be good for you to ask this to a Catholic as well, and an "outsider's" person - an Atheist or Agnostic, in order to get an objective side too.

To understand the differences between Catholics and Protestants, we need to go back in time to Jesus and his 12 apostles. Jesus chose 12 apostles to lead his people (Matthew 10:1-4). One of the apostles betrayed him, as Jesus foreknew. However, in Acts 1, the apostles prayed and God showed them the apostle who would take the betrayer's place.

Jesus chose Peter to be the leader of the apostles. (Matthew 16:13-28) Catholics believe that Peter was the first Pope. Pope is a term that means "Father." However, many Protestants (Protestants are very diverse) believe that only God is our Spiritual Father, not a man. Jesus says the following, accounted in Matthew 23 (NIV) - I boldened some.

""⁸ “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. ⁹ And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. ¹⁰ Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. ¹¹ The greatest among you will be your servant. ¹² For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

Jesus himself called God "Father", so God is our Father, not a man whose title is the Pope.

John 20 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"¹⁷ Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
¹⁸ Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her."

So, one of the biggest differences between Catholics and Protestants are that Catholics follow a Pope (who have traditionally been Gentile leaders, though they claim Peter - who is Jewish -was the first Pope) and Protestants do not believe in the idea of a Pope.

Another difference is that Catholics make the sign of the cross, which most Protestants do not do. Protestants do not see evidence in the Bible of the apostles Jesus chose making the sign of the cross.

Another difference is that most Catholics follow a universal schedule, which is given to them by the leaders. However, Protestants emphasize believers studying the Bible for themselves, which is how Protestants came to exist in the first place, by studying. The Protestant Reformation began for the most part in Europe, and Martin Luther, a former Catholic monk, is credited with being one of the main people who began the Reformation. Martin Luther was studying the Bible and became convicted of many things that he saw the Catholic church was doing, that was not based on the Bible. One of those issues was (and still is) of forbidding priests, nuns, and monks from getting married.

Peter, the leader of the apostles, was married. How we know this is because Jesus healed his mother-in-law. (Matthew 8:14) So, another difference is that Catholics forbid the priests, nuns, and monks from getting married, while Protestants do not. Protestants actually encourage Christian leaders to marry a wife and to be faithful to her. (Ephesians 5:21-33, Titus 1:6-9, 1 Timothy 3:13)

Another difference is that Catholics confess their sins to a priest, where most Protestants believe we are to confess our sins to God, and if we have sinned against someone, to confess to that person and ask forgiveness.

There are many other differences as well, but this is actually all a different topic than torture! However sad to say, both Catholics and Protestants have in the past been guilty of torturing each other as well as people of other beliefs. It is so sad when people who believe in God and say they follow Jesus do not obey Jesus's teachings to love and to do good to and to pray for others, and to bless them.


Luke 6 (NIV) - I boldened some of Jesus' teachings.

²⁷ “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, ²⁸ bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. ²⁹ If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. ³⁰ Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. ³¹ Do to others as you would have them do to you.
³² “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. ³³ And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. ³⁴ And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. ³⁵ But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. ³⁶ Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Judging Others

³⁷ “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. ³⁸ Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

Back to the topic at hand, torture, Luke 6 and Matthew 5, which accounts teachings of Jesus, have shaped my beliefs concerning that torture is unacceptable. Jesus taught to love, to pray for, to bless, to do good to even one's enemies. Torturing is not loving a person. Torturing has nothing to do with praying for or doing good to someone. So, torture is against Jesus' commands. Sad to say, many people who have called themselves Christians are guilty of torturing other people. I don't understand why because Jesus' teachings are so clear about what direction to go.. to love to prayer to Him, to doing good to others for His glory. Torture is contrary to that.




Peace be with you also, and God bless you

Protestants seem more with the oneness of God which is similar to Islam. However, in terms of the pope system, as Muslims, we believe that there is always a guide in human form on earth just like the heart corrects your senses whenever they are in doubt. It makes sense that you should only confess your sins to God though.


Back to the topic at hand, torture, Luke 6 and Matthew 5, which accounts teachings of Jesus, have shaped my beliefs concerning that torture is unacceptable. Jesus taught to love, to pray for, to bless, to do good to even one's enemies. Torturing is not loving a person. Torturing has nothing to do with praying for or doing good to someone. So, torture is against Jesus' commands. Sad to say, many people who have called themselves Christians are guilty of torturing other people. I don't understand why because Jesus' teachings are so clear about what direction to
go.. to love to prayer to Him, to doing good to others for His glory. Torture is contrary to that.

You seem to know a lot about your religion which I think is good, atleast you're not following blindly
So there's no law of punishment within the Bible? What happens to someone who steals or kills?

You can do good to your enemy, but you shouldn't love them, because the enemies of Jesus (peace be upon him) are the the enemies of God, so by him loving his enemies, he's loving the enemies of God which I don't see how he could...But yes, you should treat everyone with justice no matter what they did to you.

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

What a beautiful quote and indeed so true


Peace be with you always

[Christianlady]

Protestants seem more with the oneness of God which is similar to Islam. However, in terms of the pope system, as Muslims, we believe that there is always a guide in human form on earth just like the heart corrects your senses whenever they are in doubt. It makes sense that you should only confess your sins to God though.


Back to the topic at hand, torture, Luke 6 and Matthew 5, which accounts teachings of Jesus, have shaped my beliefs concerning that torture is unacceptable. Jesus taught to love, to pray for, to bless, to do good to even one's enemies. Torturing is not loving a person. Torturing has nothing to do with praying for or doing good to someone. So, torture is against Jesus' commands. Sad to say, many people who have called themselves Christians are guilty of torturing other people. I don't understand why because Jesus' teachings are so clear about what direction to
go.. to love to prayer to Him, to doing good to others for His glory. Torture is contrary to that.

You seem to know a lot about your religion which I think is good, atleast you're not following blindly

Hello Hassan S,

By God's amazing grace and love, He is teaching me and leading me in the His path!!! Have you ever prayed King David's prayers, accounted in the Psalms?

The following is one which I like to pray everyday, and i know God hears me and answers because of His great mercy and love!!!

Psalm 27 (NIV) - I boldened some.

" ¹ The LORD is my light and my salvation—
whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my life—
of whom shall I be afraid?
² When the wicked advance against me
to devour^[a] me,
it is my enemies and my foes
who will stumble and fall.
³ Though an army besiege me,
my heart will not fear;
though war break out against me,
even then I will be confident.
⁴ One thing I ask from the LORD,
this only do I seek:
that I may dwell in the house of the LORD
all the days of my life,
to gaze on the beauty of the LORD
and to seek him in his temple.
⁵ For in the day of trouble
he will keep me safe in his dwelling;
he will hide me in the shelter of his sacred tent
and set me high upon a rock.
⁶ Then my head will be exalted
above the enemies who surround me;
at his sacred tent I will sacrifice with shouts of joy;
I will sing and make music to the LORD.
⁷ Hear my voice when I call, LORD;
be merciful to me and answer me.
⁸ My heart says of you, “Seek his face!”
Your face, LORD, I will seek.
⁹ Do not hide your face from me,
do not turn your servant away in anger;
you have been my helper.
Do not reject me or forsake me,
God my Savior.
¹⁰ Though my father and mother forsake me,
the LORD will receive me.
¹¹ Teach me your way, LORD;
lead me in a straight path
because of my oppressors.
¹² Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes,
for false witnesses rise up against me,
spouting malicious accusations.
¹³ I remain confident of this:
I will see the goodness of the LORD
in the land of the living.
¹⁴ Wait for the LORD;
be strong and take heart
and wait for the LORD."

So there's no law of punishment within the Bible? What happens to someone who steals or kills?

God gave the Israelites (descendants of Jacob son of Isaac son of Abraham) commands through Moses that include punishments for disobeying God. However, this is for the children of Israel and is not considered by Jewish Orthodox people (who strive to follow as much as possible the Torah) to be for Gentiles. Have you ever noticed that Jewish Orthodox people do not try to get Gentiles to become Jewish Orthodox? Most Jewish Orthodox people however believe that God has 7 laws (called the 7 Laws of Noah) that Gentiles who follow will be blessed by God for obeying.

Christians who are Gentiles are not required to follow the Law that God gave to the Israelites through Moses, but we are to follow Jesus' commands, accounted in the Bible and impressed on our hearts through God's Holy Spirit. Christian beliefs are built on a foundation of love - the love, grace, and mercy of God for sinners, so Christians who understand Jesus' teachings pray for sinners, that God will touch their hearts for them to repent of their sin. This is difficult to do. For me for example, it has been very difficult for me to not want to condemn to death some American soldiers who raped and killed a little girl. I personally believe that they deserve death, but I know God is the Judge, and God will definitely hold them into account and punish them when their time on earth is finished. However, that does not mean that I want them tortured... I wish they had never been evil in the first place.

That is what is so important to undersand about God's punishments for sin. God doesn't want people to sin in the first place. He made rules not to be a mean dictator who scares people into submission, but rather because God loves people, His Creation, and knows what's best for us. What's best for us is to live for His glory, caring for each other and taking good care of His Creation, praising Him and loving Him with all our hearts, minds, souls, and bodies!!! That is why sin is so evil, because it robs people of living for God's glory. God is Perfect, Holy, and Pure. His Creation is good, because God made it. However, when people sin, that just hurts God's beautiful Creaiton.

Anyways, to specifically answer your questions above, in the Torah, you will find many strict punishments for disobedience - for the children of Israel who were led by Moses and after Moses, Joshua, and after Joshua, Judges, and after the Judges, Samuel and after Samuel, King Saul, and after King Saul, King David, and after King David, King Solomon, and after King Solomon, other kings... until Jesus' time. Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Anointed One, the King that God promised on the throne of David forever. So, for Christians (both Jewish and Gentile) we believe that God is capable of punishing people without people actively making it happen. For example, in following case, please notice that Peter did not kill this couple. Rather, Christians believe that God killed this couple.

Acts 5 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"¹ Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. ² With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.
³ Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? ⁴ Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”
⁵ When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. ⁶ Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
⁷ About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. ⁸ Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”
“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”
⁹ Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”
¹⁰ At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. ¹¹ Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events."

God killing disobedient people is also found in the Old Testament, which Christians do not believe is corrupted, but rather is the Truth with prophesies fulfilled and will be fulfilled by Jesus. The account below is one case where God killed a person - please notice a person did not kill Nabal. God, who can kill in an instant without any human doing the job, is more than capable of inflicting punishment without human help!

1 Samuel 25 (NIV) - I bolded some.

"² A certain man in Maon, who had property there at Carmel, was very wealthy. He had a thousand goats and three thousand sheep, which he was shearing in Carmel. ³ His name was Nabal and his wife’s name was Abigail. She was an intelligent and beautiful woman, but her husband was surly and mean in his dealings—he was a Calebite.
⁴ While David was in the wilderness, he heard that Nabal was shearing sheep. ⁵ So he sent ten young men and said to them, “Go up to Nabal at Carmel and greet him in my name. ⁶ Say to him: ‘Long life to you! Good health to you and your household! And good health to all that is yours!
⁷ “‘Now I hear that it is sheep-shearing time. When your shepherds were with us, we did not mistreat them, and the whole time they were at Carmel nothing of theirs was missing. ⁸ Ask your own servants and they will tell you. Therefore be favorable toward my men, since we come at a festive time. Please give your servants and your son David whatever you can find for them.’”
⁹ When David’s men arrived, they gave Nabal this message in David’s name. Then they waited.
¹⁰ Nabal answered David’s servants, “Who is this David? Who is this son of Jesse? Many servants are breaking away from their masters these days. ¹¹ Why should I take my bread and water, and the meat I have slaughtered for my shearers, and give it to men coming from who knows where?”
¹² David’s men turned around and went back. When they arrived, they reported every word. ¹³ David said to his men, “Each of you strap on your sword!” So they did, and David strapped his on as well. About four hundred men went up with David, while two hundred stayed with the supplies.
¹⁴ One of the servants told Abigail, Nabal’s wife, “David sent messengers from the wilderness to give our master his greetings, but he hurled insults at them. ¹⁵ Yet these men were very good to us. They did not mistreat us, and the whole time we were out in the fields near them nothing was missing. ¹⁶ Night and day they were a wall around us the whole time we were herding our sheep near them. ¹⁷ Now think it over and see what you can do, because disaster is hanging over our master and his whole household. He is such a wicked man that no one can talk to him.”
¹⁸ Abigail acted quickly. She took two hundred loaves of bread, two skins of wine, five dressed sheep, five seahs^[b] of roasted grain, a hundred cakes of raisins and two hundred cakes of pressed figs, and loaded them on donkeys. ¹⁹ Then she told her servants, “Go on ahead; I’ll follow you.” But she did not tell her husband Nabal.
²⁰ As she came riding her donkey into a mountain ravine, there were David and his men descending toward her, and she met them. ²¹ David had just said, “It’s been useless—all my watching over this fellow’s property in the wilderness so that nothing of his was missing. He has paid me back evil for good. ²² May God deal with David,^[c] be it ever so severely, if by morning I leave alive one male of all who belong to him!”
²³ When Abigail saw David, she quickly got off her donkey and bowed down before David with her face to the ground. ²⁴ She fell at his feet and said: “Pardon your servant, my lord, and let me speak to you; hear what your servant has to say. ²⁵ Please pay no attention, my lord, to that wicked man Nabal. He is just like his name—his name means Fool, and folly goes with him. And as for me, your servant, I did not see the men my lord sent. ²⁶ And now, my lord, as surely as the LORD your God lives and as you live, since the LORD has kept you from bloodshed and from avenging yourself with your own hands, may your enemies and all who are intent on harming my lord be like Nabal. ²⁷ And let this gift, which your servant has brought to my lord, be given to the men who follow you.
²⁸ “Please forgive your servant’s presumption. The LORD your God will certainly make a lasting dynasty for my lord, because you fight the LORD’s battles, and no wrongdoing will be found in you as long as you live. ²⁹ Even though someone is pursuing you to take your life, the life of my lord will be bound securely in the bundle of the living by the LORD your God, but the lives of your enemies he will hurl away as from the pocket of a sling. ³⁰ When the LORD has fulfilled for my lord every good thing he promised concerning him and has appointed him ruler over Israel, ³¹ my lord will not have on his conscience the staggering burden of needless bloodshed or of having avenged himself. And when the LORD your God has brought my lord success, remember your servant.”
³² David said to Abigail, “Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel, who has sent you today to meet me. ³³ May you be blessed for your good judgment and for keeping me from bloodshed this day and from avenging myself with my own hands. ³⁴ Otherwise, as surely as the LORD, the God of Israel, lives, who has kept me from harming you, if you had not come quickly to meet me, not one male belonging to Nabal would have been left alive by daybreak.”
³⁵ Then David accepted from her hand what she had brought him and said, “Go home in peace. I have heard your words and granted your request.”
³⁶ When Abigail went to Nabal, he was in the house holding a banquet like that of a king. He was in high spirits and very drunk. So she told him nothing at all until daybreak. ³⁷ Then in the morning, when Nabal was sober, his wife told him all these things, and his heart failed him and he became like a stone. ³⁸ About ten days later, the LORD struck Nabal and he died.
³⁹ When David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, “Praise be to the LORD, who has upheld my cause against Nabal for treating me with contempt. He has kept his servant from doing wrong and has brought Nabal’s wrongdoing down on his own head.”
Then David sent word to Abigail, asking her to become his wife. ⁴⁰ His servants went to Carmel and said to Abigail, “David has sent us to you to take you to become his wife.”

You can do good to your enemy, but you shouldn't love them, because the enemies of Jesus (peace be upon him) are the the enemies of God, so by him loving his enemies, he's loving the enemies of God which I don't see how he could...But yes, you should treat everyone with justice no matter what they did to you.

Jesus taught his followers to love their enemies, to pray for those who insult, to forgive them, to bless those who curse, and to do good to them. Loving one's enemies doesn't mean to be a doormat, but rather to be strong in the love of God. Loving one's enemies takes strength from God to overcome evil with good. Jesus showed his disciples how to love over and over again. Jesus didn't command his followers to do something that he does not do.

Luke 6 (NIV) - I boldened some of the words of Jesus.

" ²⁷ “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, ²⁸ bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. ²⁹ If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. ³⁰ Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. ³¹ Do to others as you would have them do to you.
³² “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. ³³ And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. ³⁴ And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. ³⁵ But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.³⁶ Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

"For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."


What a beautiful quote and indeed so true

Amen!!! All of Jesus' teachings are beautiful and true!!!

Peace be with you always

Thanks and peace and God's blessing be with you always as well

Edited by Christianlady, 05 March 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[Lanatin]

Oh God...

[Christianlady]

Oh God...

Hello La'nat Ma Man,

As you know, praying to God is extremely vitally crucially sincerely important.

What are your beliefs concerning torture and why?

Peace and God bless you

[aliasghark]

Hello La'nat Ma Man,

As you know, praying to God is extremely vitally crucially sincerely important.

What are your beliefs concerning torture and why?

Peace and God bless you

And preferably reply with 16 and a half pages of text please, La'nat Ma Man. May God bless you.