94 replies to this topic

[Abu Muslim]

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Interesting narrator......isn't this the same dude who was kicked out along with his father by the Prophet himself?

They were brought back by Uthman and awarded critical positions and wealth from baitul maal. So much for Righteous guidance of this caliph

Now brother Hozin can you explain the verse in this context that Uthman was loved by Allah because/despite he violated Prophet's commands since he is from awaloon?

This thread is not about Marwan.

[Righteous]

yes but the narration is from him.....and it helps build my case

[Abu Muslim]

yes but the narration is from him.....and it helps build my case

Since, the narration is from him then you wouldn't believe it anyways, because you guys consider Marwan a cursed liar. So why argue about the contents of it in the first place?

Edited by Abu Muslim, 21 February 2012 - 12:09 AM.

[Haydar Husayn]

It still blows my mind that `Uthman could have thought az-Zubair was closer to the Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå than Imam `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

[south-lebanon]

It still blows my mind that `Uthman could have thought az-Zubair was closer to the Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå than Imam `Ali عليه السلام.

relax bro, You can't be all that surprised, surely?

[Chaotic Muslem]

I think the real question you should be asking Sunnis is how realistic is the opinion that Abu Bakr was greater than Ali, as their sahih hadiths also state this.

Narrated Amr bin Al-Aas (radhiallahu anhu): "The Prophet of Allah (sallallahu alaihe wa-sallam) deputed me to lead the army of Dat as-Salasil. I came to him and said: "Who is the most beloved person to you?' He said: "Aa'isha" I asked "Amongst men?" He said: "Her father (Abu Bakr)..." [Saheeh Al-Bukharee v.5, no.14]

this is a very random hadith given the full story of the dhat al salasel army

[Ameen]

I thought the Sunnis who say Ali was the fourth greatest companion would be interested in knowing that Uthman, who presumably they think knew the Prophet quite well considered az-Zubair to be greater than Ali .


Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 63:

Narrated Marwan bin Al-Hakam:

'Uthman bin 'Affan was afflicted with severe nose-bleeding in the year when such illness was prevelant and that prevented him from performing Hajj, and (because of it) he made his will. A man from Quraish came to him and said, "Appoint your successor." 'Uthman asked, "Did the people name him? (i.e. the successor) the man said, "Yes." Uthman asked, "Who is that?" The man remained silent. Another man came to 'Uthman and I think it was Al-Harith. He also said, "Appoint your successor." 'Uthman asked, "Did the people name him?" The man replied "Yes." 'Uthman said, "Who is that?" The man remained silent. 'Uthman said, "Perhaps they have mentioned Az-Zubair?" The man said, "Yes." 'Uthman said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, he is the best of them as I know, and the dearest of them to Allah's Apostle ."


I would ask the Sunnis here how realistic they really think this opinion is.

Zubair greater than Hazrath Ali [as]??? Greater than Fateh-e-Khaibar??? Greater than Sher-e-Khuda??? Greater than Ameerul-Momineen??? Greater than a member of Ahlul Baith??? If the answer is YES! Then I wouldn't be surprised if someone said that they saw giraffes flying in the sky!

[Ibrahim786]

brother hayder

with all due respect - this another example of my shia brethern quoting one hadith or one ayah and make a big drama out of nothing, and just to be petulent, obstructive and try their best to doubt the sahabah in any shape or form

where does it say that zubair ra is better than ali ra according to uthman ra !!!!

this is an example when just simple copying and pasting will not suffice - you need to read the commentary and found out it context !!!

[Haydar Husayn]

brother hayder

with all due respect - this another example of my shia brethern quoting one hadith or one ayah and make a big drama out of nothing, and just to be petulent, obstructive and try their best to doubt the sahabah in any shape or form

where does it say that zubair ra is better than ali ra according to uthman ra !!!!

this is an example when just simple copying and pasting will not suffice - you need to read the commentary and found out it context !!!

No. It is an example of one of many facts that show that `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was not given the recognition that he obviously deserved. As for where it says that `Uthman considers `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã to be greater than Zubair, did you not read it?

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 63:

Narrated Marwan bin Al-Hakam:

'Uthman bin 'Affan was afflicted with severe nose-bleeding in the year when such illness was prevelant and that prevented him from performing Hajj, and (because of it) he made his will. A man from Quraish came to him and said, "Appoint your successor." 'Uthman asked, "Did the people name him? (i.e. the successor) the man said, "Yes." Uthman asked, "Who is that?" The man remained silent. Another man came to 'Uthman and I think it was Al-Harith. He also said, "Appoint your successor." 'Uthman asked, "Did the people name him?" The man replied "Yes." 'Uthman said, "Who is that?" The man remained silent. 'Uthman said, "Perhaps they have mentioned Az-Zubair?" The man said, "Yes." 'Uthman said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, he is the best of them as I know, and the dearest of them to Allah's Apostle ."

He says Zubair is the best of them (i.e. the likely successors, which would obviously include `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã), and that he was the dearest of them to the Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå. How many ways can that be interpreted? Can you even make up a possible context that would explain this?

[Ibrahim786]

No. It is an example of one of many facts that show that `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was not given the recognition that he obviously deserved. As for where it says that `Uthman considers `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã to be greater than Zubair, did you not read it?

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 63:

Narrated Marwan bin Al-Hakam:

'Uthman bin 'Affan was afflicted with severe nose-bleeding in the year when such illness was prevelant and that prevented him from performing Hajj, and (because of it) he made his will. A man from Quraish came to him and said, "Appoint your successor." 'Uthman asked, "Did the people name him? (i.e. the successor) the man said, "Yes." Uthman asked, "Who is that?" The man remained silent. Another man came to 'Uthman and I think it was Al-Harith. He also said, "Appoint your successor." 'Uthman asked, "Did the people name him?" The man replied "Yes." 'Uthman said, "Who is that?" The man remained silent. 'Uthman said, "Perhaps they have mentioned Az-Zubair?" The man said, "Yes." 'Uthman said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, he is the best of them as I know, and the dearest of them to Allah's Apostle ."

He says Zubair is the best of them (i.e. the likely successors, which would obviously include `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã), and that he was the dearest of them to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله. How many ways can that be interpreted? Can you even make up a possible context that would explain this?

we need to know who was in that group doing hajj and the context of the hadth - e.g. was ali ra doing hajj that year or was he ill? or was he elsewhere in the islamic state or was ali ra told to stay in madinah at the behest of uthman ra for because he needed him for something !!!

there are so many factors to consider yet you rush to judgement after one hadth !!!

[Haydar Husayn]

we need to know who was in that group doing hajj and the context of the hadth - e.g. was ali ra doing hajj that year or was he ill? or was he elsewhere in the islamic state or was ali ra told to stay in madinah at the behest of uthman ra for because he needed him for something !!!

there are so many factors to consider yet you rush to judgement after one hadth !!!

So if `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was on Hajj or somewhere else than Madina, then that would mean he wasn't elegible to become Caliph after `Uthman?

[Ibrahim786]

So if `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was on Hajj or somewhere else than Madina, then that would mean he wasn't elegible to become Caliph after `Uthman?

sorry bro I dont understand your post.

[Haydar Husayn]

sorry bro I dont understand your post.

`Uthman was ill, and was asked to appoint his successor. He asked if the people named anyone, and then asked if they mentioned az-Zubair. He then said that az-Zubair was the best of them and the dearest to the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã. Then, as I understood it, you tried to say maybe `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã wasn't there at the time, so he wasn't included in the people that were talked about. So I'm now asking you if you mean that the people would only have been considering candidates to be Khalifa if they were in Madina at the time.

[Ibrahim786]

`Uthman was ill, and was asked to appoint his successor. He asked if the people named anyone, and then asked if they mentioned az-Zubair. He then said that az-Zubair was the best of them and the dearest to the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم. Then, as I understood it, you tried to say maybe `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã wasn't there at the time, so he wasn't included in the people that were talked about. So I'm now asking you if you mean that the people would only have been considering candidates to be Khalifa if they were in Madina at the time.

No. I said maybe he was not in madinah or was ill etc. This hajj hadith bears no correlation to khilafah

[Haydar Husayn]

No. I said maybe he was not in madinah or was ill etc. This hajj hadith bears no correlation to khilafah

What on earth are you talking about? Do you understand what the hadith is about? Please explain to me what you think it is saying.

[Ibrahim786]

What on earth are you talking about? Do you understand what the hadith is about? Please explain to me what you think it is saying.

lol - I think you misunderstood the hadiths. the successor is for hajj and not khalifah

[muslimunity1]

Aslamalaykum,

@Ibrahim

lol - I think you misunderstood the hadiths. the successor is for hajj and not khalifah

It's not very clear, it's understanding can be taken both ways, in the beginning of the hadith it talks about a will.

Edited by muslimunity1, 22 June 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[Vigilare]

Whatever the reasoning, this is Uthman's opinion on the matter, not the Prophets so it doesn't matter in the least. None of us have in depth knowledge of this hadith or the circumstances surrounding it but some are more than happy to build a whole story out of nothing.

This isn't aimed at anyone, but you can't criticise Sunnis for picking random hadiths from Shia books and then assuming the wrong thing, but then doing the same with their hadiths. Ask a Sunni scholar about this hadith, research into it and understand the context.

[Haydar Husayn]

Whatever the reasoning, this is Uthman's opinion on the matter, not the Prophets so it doesn't matter in the least. None of us have in depth knowledge of this hadith or the circumstances surrounding it but some are more than happy to build a whole story out of nothing.

It matters in as much as it gives insight into `Uthman's thinking. Nobody is saying Sunnis should be building doctrine around it.

The issue isn't about 'building stories', it's about the fact that when you look at these narrations from different Sahaba, you clearly see a pattern of `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã not being considered by them to be especially important, which goes against all his well-known merits. It then makes some of us question the impartiality of these Sahaba.

This isn't aimed at anyone, but you can't criticise Sunnis for picking random hadiths from Shia books and then assuming the wrong thing, but then doing the same with their hadiths. Ask a Sunni scholar about this hadith, research into it and understand the context.

I'm asking it here so Sunnis can give their answer. I think I'm a reasonably fair person, so if a Sunni can give a reasonable explanation of this, then I would accept it. I'm not a fan of using easily refuted arguments.

What on earth are you talking about? Do you understand what the hadith is about? Please explain to me what you think it is saying.

The context mentions a will, a successor, and people appointing that successor. I doubt this had anything to do with Hajj. If it was just about leading the people of Madina to Hajj, then I'm sure `Uthman would have appointed someone himself, and the people wouldn't be consulting about it. I also don't think the word 'successor' would have been used.

[Vigilare]

^
That makes little sense. Many of the other sahabas had been mentioned by the Prophet as having certain merits, and while I'm not disputing Imam Ali's status, I think your conclusion is wrong. There's even that hadith stating that "...had there been another prophet it would have been Umar" yet obviously the sahabas who lived and learnt direct from the Prophet did not see that as meritous enough to place him before Abu Bakr. In fact, it would be very easy to make a claim of Umar being superior to everyone from sunni hadiths if one wanted to......

[Haydar Husayn]

^
That makes little sense. Many of the other sahabas had been mentioned by the Prophet as having certain merits, and while I'm not disputing Imam Ali's status, I think your conclusion is wrong. There's even that hadith stating that "...had there been another prophet it would have been Umar" yet obviously the sahabas who lived and learnt direct from the Prophet did not see that as meritous enough to place him before Abu Bakr. In fact, it would be very easy to make a claim of Umar being superior to everyone from sunni hadiths if one wanted to......

Yes, I agree. But again, I'm not telling the Sunnis what to believe. They can place whoever they want whereever they want. I'm just looking at it from a historical point of view, and what it says about the beliefs of certain individuals.

As for the narrations on the merits of certain Sahaba, they seem very confused and contradictory. Like you said, it would be very easy to make a case for `Umar being greater than Abu Bakr, but then you have other stuff contradicting that. In my opinion, this is a sign of the fact that these narrations were fabricated in order to boost the status of certain individuals, without worrying too much if they were consistent with other narrations.

[Vigilare]

That's a whole other discussion as far as I'm concerned, however it's worth noting that this doesn't just appear to be the belief of certain individuals but the majority of the sahaba (i.e Imam Ali's position to the preceding Caliphs and not Zubayr). History does actually show that majority of the sahabas went with Abu Bakr, and there was almost no objection to Umar. There's also narrations about how after Uthman was murdered, the rebels approached Talha, Zubayr and Imam Ali - so even in their eyes Imam Ali's position was different to how it is seen now.

[Haydar Husayn]

That's a whole other discussion as far as I'm concerned, however it's worth noting that this doesn't just appear to be the belief of certain individuals but the majority of the sahaba (i.e Imam Ali's position to the preceding Caliphs and not Zubayr). History does actually show that majority of the sahabas went with Abu Bakr, and there was almost no objection to Umar. There's also narrations about how after Uthman was murdered, the rebels approached Talha, Zubayr and Imam Ali - so even in their eyes Imam Ali's position was different to how it is seen now.

Ok, but I don't see what that proves. The status of `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã is pretty much beyond dispute just from looking at historical events, and not just relying on individual narrations. Recognised events instead of narrations, in other words.

The fact that this wasn't appreciated by the majority of Sahaba just reinforces the point that they weren't really of the calibre that Sunnis would have people believe. I honestly have to wonder how anyone can consider the likes of `Uthman, Talha, and Zubayr to be anywhere near Imam `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in terms of piety, knowledge, or service to Islam, even just going by the Sunni version of Islamic history. As the Imam himself said: "But good Heavens! what had I to do with this "consultation"? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones?"

[Ugly Jinn]

Shia version = Imam Ali has a very, very, very high status.
Sunni Version = It's high but not that high.

*splash hadiths at each other*

[Haydar Husayn]

Shia version = Imam Ali has a very, very, very high status.
Sunni Version = It's high but not that high.

*splash hadiths at each other*

Well in that case what we then have to establish is what exactly Imam `Ali's status is, going by what we can agree on, and then see whether all the Sahaba recognised that status.

To many Sunnis, especially Salafis, to say prefer `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã over Abu Bakr and `Umar is a sign of deviancy. So it is clear that giving people their proper status is quite important.