73 replies to this topic

[Quisant]

We are told that God is all knowing.

Does He know fear, sex, envy, humiliation, pain?
Does God know what it ‘feels like’ to fall in love, to be drunk, drive a car, sing, swim, ride a horse etc..etc..

How did God acquire this knowledge?
Is there a scholarly opinion on this?

ws.
*

[mun3t]

Quisant, on 15 February 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

We are told that God is all knowing.

Does He know fear, sex, envy, humiliation, pain?
Does God know what it ‘feels like’ to fall in love, to be drunk, drive a car, sing, swim, ride a horse etc..etc..

How did God acquire this knowledge?
Is there a scholarly opinion on this?

ws.
*

Does the Creator not know what He have created?

[Quisant]

mun3t, on 15 February 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Does the Creator not know what He have created?

I don't know what God knows or He doesn't, that is why I asked the question.

You have not answered anything.
(You don't have to; I was just curious to see if there is a consensus answer)
Thank, anyway.

[Thaqalayn313]

Salam,

God is All Knowing.
He created emotions.

We should not apply the relative to the irrelative/absolute being.
We shouldn't compare Allah s.w to us human beings.

Wasalam

Edited by Thaqalayn313, 15 February 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[thecontentedself]

Quisant, on 15 February 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

We are told that God is all knowing.

Does He know fear, sex, envy, humiliation, pain?
Does God know what it ‘feels like’ to fall in love, to be drunk, drive a car, sing, swim, ride a horse etc..etc..

How did God acquire this knowledge?
Is there a scholarly opinion on this?

ws.
*

emotions is a thing of material beings. as is acquired knowledge.

and if you're asking whether God knows of said emotions, then you need to apply the philosophical basis of 'the giver of something cannot be devoid of that thing' (pardon the aweful arabic to english translation, but you get the picture)

Edited by thecontentedself, 15 February 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[Quisant]

thecontentedself, on 15 February 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

emotions is a thing of material beings. as is acquired knowledge.

and if you're asking whether God knows of said emotions, then you need to apply the philosophical basis of 'the giver of something cannot be devoid of that thing' (pardon the aweful arabic to english translation, but you get the picture)

Yes, I think I understand...it is a fair answer, thank you.

What I cannot get my head round is ...for instance 'fear' : The giver of fear cannot be devoid of fear.
What could possibly frighten God?
Or envy?  Or pain? Or embarrassment?
How would a God experience or identify with such things?

ws.
*

[Thaqalayn313]

Quote

Yes, I think I understand...it is a fair answer, thank you.

What I cannot get my head round is ...for instance 'fear' : The giver of fear cannot be devoid of fear.
What could possibly frighten God?
Or envy? Or pain? Or embarrassment?
How would a God experience or identify with such things?

ws.

With respect to your answer , i think you completely ignored my statement ,
you shouldnt relate these emotions to god , fear and envy , how does god experience or identify?

He CREATED those emotions , it does not mean he must have applied them from his personal experience.
Throughout your questions you keep comparing human emotions to the almighty creator,
I don't understand where your coming from? so clarify please ,
from what i understand you dont see god as absolute? He "cannot" be?
God is not bound by anything we are bound, there is no cannot in terms of god..
so i really dont see where your going with this.. i think what your meant to "get your head around" is that the creator of all does not require all that he has created.
i dont mean by quoting you in my answers any rudeness or attack so i hope you and anyone who reads this doesn't take it this way .

Wasalam

Edited by Thaqalayn313, 15 February 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[BillyJo]

Quisant, on 15 February 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Yes, I think I understand...it is a fair answer, thank you.

What I cannot get my head round is ...for instance 'fear' : The giver of fear cannot be devoid of fear.
What could possibly frighten God?
Or envy?  Or pain? Or embarrassment?
How would a God experience or identify with such things?

ws.
*

God doesn't feel fear He knows fear, there is a huge difference between knowing and actually feeling. Some people are afraid of of being touched a phobia named aphephobia. We think that is irrational but we know they are afraid although we can't feel the fear or maybe even relate to it because it is irrational fear to us, as for God He knows what fear is but he doesn't feel it.

[Quisant]

Thaqalayn313, on 15 February 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

With respect to your answer , i think you completely ignored my statement ,
you shouldnt relate these emotions to god , fear and envy , how does god experience or identify?

He CREATED those emotions , it does not mean he must have applied them from his personal experience.
Throughout your questions you keep comparing human emotions to the almighty creator,
I don't understand where your coming from? so clarify please ,
from what i understand you dont see god as absolute? He "cannot" be?
God is not bound by anything we are bound, there is no cannot in terms of god..
so i really dont see where your going with this.. i think what your meant to "get your head around" is that the creator of all does not require all that he has created.
i dont mean by quoting you in my answers any rudeness or attack so i hope you and anyone who reads this doesn't take it this way .

Wasalam

I am not going anywhere with this...I am merely asking opinions.

If your opinion is ' just because God knows everything' then that is your opinion. For which I thank you.

But it doesn't do make my curiosity go away.
ws.
*

BillyJo, on 15 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

God doesn't feel fear He knows fear, there is a huge difference between knowing and actually feeling. Some people are afraid of of being touched a phobia named aphephobia. We think that is irrational but we know they are afraid although we can't feel the fear or maybe even relate to it because it is irrational fear to us, as for God He knows what fear is but he doesn't feel it.

How can you 'know' something if you do not feel it.
To know the difference between lead and aluminum you need to feel..and I would have said to feel pain or shame or sexual arousal you need to feel them.

To know how to swim you have to swim.

I can't work it out in my head.
ws.
*

[Thaqalayn313]

Quote

I am not going anywhere with this...I am merely asking opinions.

If your opinion is ' just because God knows everything' then that is your opinion. For which I thank you.

But it doesn't do make my curiosity go away.
ws.

I am glad that you have clarified , i apologise for my lack of understanding ,
i never intended for your curiosity to go away , i was just stating that from an islamic perspective to put human emotions in comparison with god , is wrong in itself.
It is good to question and be curious, but if your going to question it from an islamic viewpoint you have to also accept the attributes given to him islamically.
and i think you got me wrong my opinion isnt "just because god knows everything" that would be blind faith.

The creator , of emotions , has knowledge of what he created as Billyjo has stated, that is what i was trying to point out ,
just the word creator. Answers all , did you ever see a product made by a manufacturer , and the manufacturer did not know what the product was ?
God is the manufacturer he KNOWS what he has created.

As i said before he didnt have to experience to know , this is yet again a human attribute of knowing through trial ,
we must keep in mind that god is under no trial.

Anyways i was just clarifying myself.

Wasalam.

[BillyJo]

Quote

How can you 'know' something if you do not feel it.
To know the difference between lead and aluminum you need to feel..and I would have said to feel pain or shame or sexual arousal you need to feel them.

To know how to swim you have to swim.

I can't work it out in my head.
ws.
*

God doesn't need to feel anything in order to know it. God's knowledge is not based on experience, He is the Creator and we are the creation. Does God know how it is to be human? Yes He created us He knows, but did He experiment on being human? No. The logic of the creation doesn't apply to the Creator.

[eThErEaL]

Quisant, on 15 February 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

We are told that God is all knowing.

Does He know fear, sex, envy, humiliation, pain?
Does God know what it ‘feels like’ to fall in love, to be drunk, drive a car, sing, swim, ride a horse etc..etc..

How did God acquire this knowledge?
Is there a scholarly opinion on this?

ws.
*

God knows everything including those things you listed.  But He knows these things stripped of their material constrictions.  So He truly knows what it means to be drunk more than we do.  He truly knows pain more than we do.  He truly knows what anger is more than we do.  He truly knows sex more than we do.  There is nothing in this world that does not reflect what is in a higher realm, and ultimately in God Himself.  

Edited by eThErEaL, 15 February 2012 - 11:53 AM.

[Khadim uz Zahra]

In The Name of Allah (SWT) , The Most Beneficent, The Most Merciful.

wa RAHMATULLAHI WA BARAKATOH.

I think the thing that is confusing you is that if He knows what is fear, what is love, what is hate, then He must also feel fear, hate or love in order to understand what they mean because these are, as someone has pointed out above, material things that are, usually, acquired by experience.

I'd like to give an example here in order to make things clearer and to ascertain whether we really need to experience these feelings in order to understand what they are. The example I prefer is that of a software programmer making a robot. I prefer this example because programming language - which can be seen as what robots, and computers, are made of and, therefore, the robotic equivalents of human emotions - is made by humans. This is very similar to the act of creation as Allah (SWT) is also the one who created our emotions, just like programming language was created by humans. Plus, the whole process of making a robot can be said to be similar to creation of humans - although a major difference is that Allah (SWT) created us, and the Universe, from nothing while we do not create the robot in such a manner.

So, we see that a programmers creates the programming language - the "emotions and thoughts" of the robot - from scratch, when it did not exist and, then, creates the body of the robot (like Allah (SWT) created our bodies), which would be useless without, in our case, the emotions and, in the case of robots, programming language.

Now, if the programmer makes the programming language, which is the essence of the robot as the body is useless without it, can we say that the programmer had to be a robot or behave according to some type of programming language in order to make one himself or to understand how a computer works? Obviously, this was not the case as neither the programming language nor the robot did existed before so how could he be a robot or "feel" the programming language when it was not there! Therefore, this shows that the programmer created the "emotions" of the robot and understand the perfectly well without ever feeling the programming language and, yet, understand how the robot feels the programming language perhaps as good as the robot.

Similarly, God does not need to feel these emotions as he created the programming language and just fed it into us and, just like the programmer, does not need to feel the emotions in order to understand what they "feel" like or what they mean.

Also, it can be looked at from another angle to say that since the programmer is the one who created the programming language, he knows  fully well how it operates; because it is his creation. Similarly, emotions are Allah (SWT) 's creation so He, also, knows perfectly well what they entail.

INSHALLAH, I have been helpful and clear in my reasoning.

May Allah (SWT) bless us all, our families and loved ones, guide us all to The Straight Path with His Perfect Guidance and may He, The Forgiver of Sins and The Oft-Forgiving, forgive all our sins for, indeed, there is neither any refuge nor any respite for the sinners except in Allah (SWT) .

Oops! Whatever I have said was already explained, although in a different way, by others: BillyJo touched on my point about the Creator knowing what He created and Thaqalayn touched my point about the programmer knowing what the programming language is. I didn't read their replies and just went forward to writing my own but I hope my example would give you a different perspective and way of looking at the issue.

Edited by Khadim uz Zahra, 15 February 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[Pascal]

I think his post is based on the idea you can only know certain things through experience, i wrote an example for this in another thread, ill post it here:

Think about this for a moment, mary is a neuroscientist. She knows everything there is to know about the colour blue, what wavelength of light produces it, what chemical burn to produce a blue, what objects are blue or appear blue (eyes ocean ect), what temperature blue turns when you shine a light on it, how much light it reflects and absorbs. She knows every fact there is to know about blue, every single logical fact, every single physically present and observable fact. Theres one tiny thing though, mary has an eye abornamility which means she can't see blue properly. The question is this, even though she knows every fact and every bit of logic surrounding blue, she knows all the physical, she knows how to create blue, if she can't see it and experience it, can she really know the essence of blue? Does she really have a full picture of what blue is?

Another example is pain. There is actually a genetic condition (very rare one at that) that leaves people unable to feel pain. You can read all the books about pain, hear peoples experiences of pain, learn all the chemical and neuronal signals involved but you can not fully know pain unless you have felt it.

I find it hard to believe God could of experienced and fully know lust for example or what it is to ride a bicycle but i by no means hold this strongly.

Edited by kingpomba, 15 February 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[BillyJo]

Jebreil, on 15 February 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Is fear a feeling like pain? Or is it a way of reacting to things?

Is humiliation a sensation? Or is it a particular response to a situation?

Is envy an emotion? Or is it a manner of acting towards someone?

Similar questions can be asked for your other presumptions.

Amazing answer

[Quisant]

I am as confused now as I was before I started the post but I am sincerely grateful for your comments.

I am an atheist cursed with a mystic mind and although I can find contradictions in what most of you say, I am hypnotized by the images that some of your views force me to perceive before I suspend disbelief.

Only a believer would travel such distance; the extra step you dare to imagine adds to my perspective more that I can say.

Many thanks. Wslm. *

[hameedeh]

Quisant, on 15 February 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

We are told that God is all knowing.

Quote

Holy Qur'an, Surah 34, ayah 26:

Þõáú íóÌúãóÚõ ÈóíúäóäóÇ ÑóÈõøäóÇ Ëõãóø íóÝúÊóÍõ ÈóíúäóäóÇ ÈöÇáúÍóÞöø æóåõæó ÇáúÝóÊóøÇÍõ ÇáúÚóáöíãõ {26}


Shakir 34:26 Say: Our Lord will gather us together, then will He judge between us with the truth; and He is the greatest Judge, the All-knowing.

Imam Reza AS said:

Quote

H 322, Ch. 17, h 2
It is narrated from Ali ibn Muhammad, in a mursal manner, from abu al-Hassan al-Rida (a.s.) who has said the following to one of his followers.

Allah, the Most Holy, the Exalted, has ascribed certain names to Himself. He told His
creatures when He created them, give them the ability to worship Him and made them
responsible, to call Him with those names. He called Himself All-hearing, All-seeing, Allpowerful,
Guarding, Rationalizing, Manifest, Hidden, Subtle, All-aware, Powerful, Majestic,
Wise, All-knowing and with such other similar names.

Imam Abu Abdullah AS said:

Quote

H 122, Ch. 15, h 3
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father and Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il from al-Fadl ibn
Shadhan, both from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Jamil ibn Darraj who has said the following.
"(Imam) abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, "When the soul reaches here, pointing to his throat,
there will be no chance for learned persons to repent. He recited this verse; "God will only
accept the repentance of those who commit evil in ignorance, if they repent immediately.
God is All-knowing and All-wise."

The source of the quotes by Imam Reza AS and Imam Abu Abdullah AS:

http://www.islamic-l...pdf/Al-Kafi.pdf

http://www.wilayatmi...oks/Al-Kafi.pdf



I posted both of the links in case one breaks down in the future, so you will still have the other link. ws

[Muhammed Ali]

Jebreil, on 15 February 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Is fear a feeling like pain? Or is it a way of reacting to things?

Is humiliation a sensation? Or is it a particular response to a situation?

Is envy an emotion? Or is it a manner of acting towards someone?

Similar questions can be asked for your other presumptions.

Please elaborate.

[Pascal]

I think the ability of God to not know absolutely everything isn't an indictement on God. We can draw a parallel to some philosophers who think God isn't literally *all powerful* he's extremely powerful but not all powerful, he can't make 1+1=3 for example or make it so blue isn't blue.

Likewise, i don't think the ability or lack there of for God to fully feel and experience things like lust or riding a bicycle significantly impacts on God being a God. It really doesn't seem like all that fatal of a wounding to me.

[Thaqalayn313]

Quote

I think the ability of God to not know absolutely everything isn't an indictement on God. We can draw a parallel to some philosophers who think God isn't literally *all powerful* he's extremely powerful but not all powerful, he can't make 1+1=3 for example or make it so blue isn't blue.

Likewise, i don't think the ability or lack there of for God to fully feel and experience things like lust or riding a bicycle significantly impacts on God being a God. It really doesn't seem like all that fatal of a wounding to me.

I think we have strayed the topic to an excess of philosophies and philosophical statements ,
the perfection of Allah s.w is present in his perfect infallible prophets and imams ,
its that simple even if we do find a gap in the philosophy , the philosophy must be wrong because if the practical application is perfect , then the true philosophy is perfect.
Its that simple , no need for what ifs and therefores and examples and metaphors,and analysis and
the infallibility of the prophets & imams (pbut)
is evidence enough of perfection.

Wasalam.

[Pascal]

Thaqalayn313, on 16 February 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

I think we have strayed the topic to an excess of philosophies and philosophical statements ,
the perfection of Allah s.w is present in his perfect infallible prophets and imams ,
its that simple even if we do find a gap in the philosophy , the philosophy must be wrong because if the practical application is perfect , then the true philosophy is perfect.
Its that simple , no need for what ifs and therefores and examples and metaphors,and analysis and
the infallibility of the prophets & imams (pbut)
is evidence enough of perfection.

Wasalam.

You can say that if you want but you can't claim its properly logical or based in reality to just assume the conclusion because you want to assume it so ( https://en.wikipedia...cular_reasoning eg ).

Its fine if you dont want philosophy to touch your God but if we look at the properties of a God and there are logical contradictions its more of an indictment on the way one thinks about the god in question rather than the philosophical methods but i dont take logical positivism to its absolute extreme either.

[Thaqalayn313]

Quote

You can say that if you want but you can't claim its properly logical or based in reality to just assume the conclusion because you want to assume it so (https://en.wikipedia...cular_reasoning eg ).

Its fine if you dont want philosophy to touch your God but if we look at the properties of a God and there are logical contradictions its more of an indictment on the way one thinks about the god in question rather than the philosophical methods but i dont take logical positivism to its absolute extreme either.

On the contrary brother , i can , i'm not basing it on assumptions i am basing it on reality and the reality is , that the infallibility of the prophets and the imams is proven through history, and the fact that they are infallible means that no philosophical argument that is brought forth that contradicts reality can be correct.

I don't not want philosophy , you misunderstood.
Gods philosophy is present through his prophets , they are HIS vicegerents on earth, their infallibility is enough to remove any other philosophy off the table.

That is putting aside , the fine tuned universe , and the system god has placed , though i think that would lead to another topic so i wont touch so much on that,
but overall , even if you were to disregard the imams and the prophet , and say history might be wrong or can be changed , i think that even from a probabilistic perspective , its more illogical to put out these philosophies than to deny history and empirical evidence of the universe itself.

I also find it quite strange why someone would try so hard to deny something, that he has to go into philosophies just to prove himself.


Wasalam

[Ugly Jinn]

Quisant, on 15 February 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

I am an atheist cursed with a mystic mind and although I can find contradictions in what most of you say, I am hypnotized by the images that some of your views force me to perceive before I suspend disbelief.

A mystic atheist, great mix to rattle the brain cells. It's healthy, not a curse, you are pondering, keep pondering even if you never find your answer. The journey is more important than the destination.

Did you have an Islamic background?

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 19 February 2012 - 02:57 AM.