242 replies to this topic

[hameedeh]

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[Shakir 5:35] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 5:35]
Wasilah is a means of access to a thing or a being.

If Allah had willed He could have guided mankind directly through inspiration, but in His infinite wisdom, He had not deemed it desirable. He selected and appointed His representatives to convey His message and laws to people and administer their affairs in every age. Please refer to pages 1 to 7, and the commentary of al Baqarah: 2 to 5, 30 to 38, 48, and 124 to know that the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt are the only means of approach to Allah.

Thus wasilah or means of access to Allah is to faithfully follow the Holy Prophet and the holy Imams of his holy house, who have been thoroughly purified by Allah (Ahzab: 33).

The Holy Prophet said:

"I and Ali are from one divine light."

"I will soon be called back, so I will have to go away from you, but I leave behind, amid you, the thaqalayn (two weighty indispensable influential authorities), the book of Allah and my Ahl ul Bayt. Should you be attached to these two, never, never shall you go astray, after me, for verily these two will never be separated from each other; and, joined together, they shall meet me at the spring of Kawthar."

"My Ahl ul Bayt amongst you are like the ark of Nuh. He who sails on it will be safe; but he who holds back shall be drowned and lost."

Qur'an and commentary source: http://quran.al-islam.org/

[hameedeh]

ImamAliLover, on 07 February 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

Salam Sister, i would recommend reading that Surah very well.  Prophet Yusuf's brothers had a plot to kill him and they caused so much grief and opression on their father, to the point that he even became blind.
Of course they should seek forgiveness from him, because they committed an oppression against him.  

Thank you for the message, brother. According to the ayah that I posted above, the brothers of Prophet Yusuf AS were not asking Prophet Yusuf AS to forgive them. They were begging their father Prophet Ya'qub AS to ask Allah SWT to forgive them. Prophet Ya'qub AS promised to make intercession for them.

Edit: See my Post #19 above.

Edited by hameedeh, 07 February 2012 - 02:35 AM.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

Below hadees shows that Prophet Muhammad (saww) showers blessings even after passing away:


كنز الفوائد للكراجكي : ذكر أن أبا حنيفة أكل طعاما الامام الصادق جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام فلما رفع عليه السلام يده من أكله قال : ( الحمدلله رب العالمين اللهم إن هذا منك ومن رسولك ) .
فقال أبوحنيفة : يا أبا عبدالله أجعلت مع الله شريكا ؟ فقال له : ويلك إن الله تعالى يقول في كتابه : ( وما نقموا إلا أن أغناهم الله ورسوله من فضله )
ويقول في موضع آخر : ( ولو أنهم رضواما آتيهم الله ورسوله وقالوا : حسبنا الله سيؤتينا الله من فضله ورسوله ) فقال أبوحنيفة : والله لكأني ما قرأتهما قط من كتاب الله ولا سمعتهما إلا في هذا الوقت ، فقال أبوعبدالله عليه السلام : بلى قد قرأتهما وسمعتهما ، ولكن الله تعالى أنزل فيك وفي أشباهك ( أم على قلوب أقفالها ) وقال ( كلابل ران على قلوبهم ما كانوا يكسبون

It is written in Kanzul Fawaid by Karajaki that once Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (asws) was eating food with Abu Hanifa and after finisning, Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (asws) expressed gratitude like this: “I thank Allah (azwj) who is the Sustainer of All Worlds, O Allah (azwj) this was a blessing from You (azwj) as well as from Your Prophet (saww).”

Upon hearing this Abu Hanifa said: “O Abu AbdAllah (asws)! You have include ‘someone else’ along with Allah (azwj).”

Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (asws) replied: “Be Careful! Allah (azwj) Says in His Book(9:59):
“If only they had been content with what Allah and His Messenger had gave them, and had said, "Sufficient unto us is Allah! Allah and His Messenger will soon give us out of their Kindness"

And at another place Allah (azwj) Says (9:74):
“……And they only stayed in opposition because Allah and His Messenger enriched them out of His grace….."

After listening to these Verses from Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (asws), Abu Hanifa said: “By Allah (azwj)! It seems I have never read or heard someone reciting these Verses of the holy Quran before.”

Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (asws) said: “No, its not like this! You have not only heard these Verses before but also have read them.  However, Allah (azwj) Says for you and people like you(47:24):
“Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are  there locks on the hearts?”

and Says (83:14):
“Nay, but that which they have earned is rust upon their hearts.

[Source: Bihar Al Anwar Vol.47 Pg.240]

http://al-shia.org/h...ehar47/a24.html

Edited by muhibb-ali, 07 February 2012 - 02:52 AM.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

Quoting the following from the book of Ayatullah Sadiq Shirazi:

http://imamshirazi.c...e shi'a.pdf
Page:37

Quote

Intercession

The Sh:!a believe that intercession or shaf"!ah is correct as is to
be found in the Holy Qur’"n and the authentic traditions.

Almighty Allah has said in the Holy Qur’an: They do not
intercede except for someone He approves off

Beseeching the Prophet and his Pure Family

The Sh:!a believe it is permissible to seek a way to Allah  >
(tawassul) through beseeching or pleading to the Prophet (N) and
his pure family (a.s.). Allah has said of them in the Qur’ > "n: eAnd
seek the way (was:lah) to Him

.  The Sh:!a also believe that it is permissible to seek the aid of Ahl al,Bayt in asking for needs to
be fulfilled by Almighty Allah, for they are alive and receiving  >
sustenance with their Lord, as is found in the Qur’"nic verse about
the martyrs who have a lesser station than the Prophet.

Just as the companions of the Prophet (N) used to seek a way to
Allah through the Prophet  and would seek their needs from
him when he was alive in the world, it is permissible for
Muslims to seek a way to Allah through him and seek their needs  >
from him now when the Prophet (N) is alive in the afterlife.
The Prophet (N) and his pure household (a.s.) have a high station
with Allah so Muslims seek a way to Alla > h through them to ask  >
Allah to fulfil their needs.

Almighty Allah has said: And if, when they wrong their own
selves, they were to come to you [the Prophet] and seek
forgiveness from Allah and the Messenger seeks forgiveness for  >
them they would find Allah turning towards them, merciful

Therefore, seeking a way to Almighty Allah ( > tawassul) through
the station of pious people in their graves such as the Prophets and 38
friends of Allah is permissible because of the solid evidences from
the Qur’"n and the traditions and consensus as well as the
practices of the Muslims in this regard.

[hameedeh]

Shia_Debater, on 07 February 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

The story of Prophet Ya'qub [as] making dua for his children is different to tawassul since he was present.
The story of People asking the Prophet [saww] to pray for them is different since he was present.

Is the Prophet [saww] present when you ask him? Is Imam Ali [as] present when you ask him?
How can we be so sure that they can hear us?

In prayer when we send our salaam to the Prophet [saww] from what I have heard it reaches him, this does not mean that he hears it directly. Also just because he can hear our salaam it does not mean he can hear us asking him to ask Allah (swt) on behalf of us. Also this does not mean Imam Ali [as] or any of the A'immah [as] can hear our salaam nor does it mean they can hear us asking them to ask Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

Also it seems a bit risky saying "Ya Ali" and in your heart knowing you are asking Imam Ali [as] to ask Allah (swt) to then allow you to do something when you could just ask Allah (swt) and say bi haqqi Ali.

Also, where would tawassul stop? For example if one of my friends died as a martyr could I call on him? Sure you may say the A'immah [as] are closer to Allah (swt) than my friend, but the Prophet [saww] is closer to Allah (swt) than Imam Ali [as]. So theoretically would I be allowed to do that if he was a martyr?

Or is it only permissible to ask infallibles? If it is only for infallibles does that mean we cannot call upon Abbas [as]? which I have noticed people do.

Every practice must come from somewhere - If asking the A'immah [as] on behalf of us to ask Allah (swt) for something is permissible then there should be proof from the Qur'an. Proof from the ahadith wouldn't really work since the Qur'an says do not call upon any other than Allah (swt) however if we were to say for arguements sake that ahadith are accepted, then still there isn;t much proof.

Quote

Chapter 14
The Imams are the corner stone on earth
H 501, Ch. 14, h 1
Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) would very often say, "I am the supervisor for Allah to see who
should go to Paradise and who should go to Hell. I am the greatest criterion, the possessor of
the staff and the (marking) seal Miysam All the angels and the spirit have acknowledged the
existence in me of all the matters that they had acknowledge in Prophet Muhammad (s.a.). I
am held responsible for all such matters that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.) was held responsible.
Such responsibilities are the duties to Allah, the Lord. The Holy Prophet will be called upon
and his call will be accepted. I will be called upon and my call will be accepted. The Holy
Prophet will be made to speak and I will be made to speak and I will speak just the way he
would speak. I have been given certain distinctions which are given to no one before me. I
was taught all about the deaths, the sufferings, the genealogy of people and clear speech. I
have not missed any of the knowledge that have passed me by and nothing of the future is
unseen or unknown to me. I give good news by the permission of Allah and do my duty
towards Allah. All of these is from Allah Who has made it possible for me through His
knowledge."

H 502, Ch. 14, h 2
Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) was the gate to Allah through which only, people can get closer to Him.
Imam Ali (a.s.) was the path that if one would ignore it he would have been destroyed. This is also
true of all the Imams of guidance one after the other. Allah has made them as the cornerstones of the earth
so that people on it would not be destroyed.
http://www.islamic-l...pdf/Al-Kafi.pdf

I am a woman, a Christian who learned about Islam and became a Muslim, a convert or revert to Shia Islam. I know that Allah SWT loved me, because He guided me to the truth. Perhaps I am not worthy to call upon the Holy Prophet SA and the Imams AS. If I said, Ya Ghazi Abul Fazl Abbas Alamdar, Adrikni!, then Allah SWT would know my heart and my intention, and being the All Knowing that He is, He SWT would know that I meant to say, Ya Ghazi Abul Fazl Abbas Alamdar, Adrikni! Please ask Allah SWT to return Imam Mahdi AJ. Ya Allah, accept these prayers.

[Haydar Husayn]

hameedeh, on 07 February 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

We are not praying to the Holy Prophet SA and he is not answering our prayers. We mention his name or names of Imams AS when we converse with Allah SWT.

That is perfectly fine, sister. I'm not arguing against mentioning their names, which is something recommended. What I am arguing against is calling upon them, for example by making a dua that starts with "Ya Ali".

Quote

Prophet SA and Imams AS are our intercessors by permission of Allah SWT.
We have the permission of Allah SWT to mention them when we speak to Allah SWT.

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn 'Isa from al-Husayn
ibn Sa‘id from Fudala ibn Ayyub from abu a1-Maghra from Muhammad ibn Salim from
Aban ibn Taghlib from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"The Messenger of Allah has said, ...'I appeal to Allah and complain to Him about the case
of my people’s dealings, their denying the virtue and excellence of the Imams from my family.
I complain to Allah for their disregard of my relation with them. By Allah, they will
murder my son (al-Husayn (a.s.)). May Allah deprive them of my intercession.’"
Al Kafi, H 540, Ch. 19, h 5

Again, this is clearly speaking about intercession on the Day of Judgement.

hameedeh, on 07 February 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَابْتَغُوا إِلَيْهِ الْوَسِيلَةَ وَجَاهِدُوا فِي سَبِيلِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ {35}

[Shakir 5:35] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 5:35]
Wasilah is a means of access to a thing or a being.

If Allah had willed He could have guided mankind directly through inspiration, but in His infinite wisdom, He had not deemed it desirable. He selected and appointed His representatives to convey His message and laws to people and administer their affairs in every age. Please refer to pages 1 to 7, and the commentary of al Baqarah: 2 to 5, 30 to 38, 48, and 124 to know that the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt are the only means of approach to Allah.

Thus wasilah or means of access to Allah is to faithfully follow the Holy Prophet and the holy Imams of his holy house, who have been thoroughly purified by Allah (Ahzab: 33).

The Holy Prophet said:

"I and Ali are from one divine light."

"I will soon be called back, so I will have to go away from you, but I leave behind, amid you, the thaqalayn (two weighty indispensable influential authorities), the book of Allah and my Ahl ul Bayt. Should you be attached to these two, never, never shall you go astray, after me, for verily these two will never be separated from each other; and, joined together, they shall meet me at the spring of Kawthar."

"My Ahl ul Bayt amongst you are like the ark of Nuh. He who sails on it will be safe; but he who holds back shall be drowned and lost."

Qur'an and commentary source: http://quran.al-islam.org/

Poyaa/Ali is not a very good tafsir, so I don't think you should rely on it so heavily. There is far too much speculation in it, and too little reference to authentic Shia ahadith. As for this verse, look at what Imam Ali had to say about seeking nearness to Allah (swt):

Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 109

The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.

Nahjul Balagha, Saying 135
Daily prayers are the best medium through which one can Seek the nearness to Allah. Hajj is Jihad (Holy War) for every weak person. For everything that you own there is Zakat, and Zakat of your body is fasting. The Jihad of a woman is to afford pleasant company to her husband.


These are the best means of seaking nearness to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, not calling on other than Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, which is shirk.


He also said:

Nahjul Balagha, Letter 31

Develop the habit of patience against sufferings, calamities and adversities. This virtue of patience is one of the highest values of morality and nobility of character and it is the best habit which one can develop. Trust in Allah and let your mind seek His protection in every calamity and suffering because you will thus entrust yourself and your affairs to the Best Trustee and to the Mightiest Guardian. Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power. Ask as much of His Blessings and seek as much of His Guidance as you can.

[...]

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.


Do you see that? No need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf when you supplicate to Him. Why do people not take any notice to the words of their Imam?

[Haydar Husayn]

Saintly_Jinn23, on 07 February 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

Yeah, in terms of an argument such as "Besides, as I was saying earlier..." , but the word implies independence. We don't call on the Sent Ones independently from Allah at any point.

No it doesn't. You obviously didn't bother checking the dictionaries, so I will do it for you.


be·sides

[bih-sahydz]

adverb
1.moreover; furthermore; also: Besides, I promised her we would come.
2.in addition: There are three elm trees and two maples besides.
3.otherwise; else: They had a roof over their heads but not much besides.

preposition
4.over and above; in addition to: Besides a mother he has a sister to support.
5.other than; except: There's no one here besides Bill and me.

Quote

Also, even though the polytheists believed in Allah, they were polytheists. Polytheists have historically believed that the gods have independent wills. One god can stop the will of another and even if a god is more powerful than another god, if enough gods gather against him/her, they can prevent it from acting out its will or stop its actions from taking full effect independently from the will of that particular god in question. That's how polytheism works. That's what the Quran is refuting, no where does it say God doesn't work through his sent ones or that God does not consider the desires of those beneath him and hear them out.

Whereas the intercession of pagan gods was basically that they could stop other gods, even the most powerful gods if they gathered enough strength together between themselves, in their tracks, the intercession of saints and other holy persons is merely petitioning God to allow this or that and if he says "no" accepting it. You can't compare the two.

You are speculating again.

Quote

Show me where it is referring to calling on the prophets or Imams, or rather I should say more specifically calling on God through the prophets or Imams.

Here are some verses that could apply to that situation:

And there are some among men who take for themselves objects of worship besides Allah, whom they love as they love Allah, and those who believe are stronger in love for Allah and O, that those who are unjust had seen, when they see the chastisement, that the power is wholly Allah's and that Allah is severe in requiting (evil). When those who were followed shall renounce those who followed (them), and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder. And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire. [2:165-167]

Many Shias certain do have more love in their hearts for the Imams than for Allah. They can deny it, but from their behaviour and emotions, it's obvious.

And We will bring forth hell, exposed to view, on that day before the unbelievers. They whose eyes were under a cover from My reminder and they could not even hear. What! do then those who disbelieve think that they can take My servants to be guardians besides Me? Surely We have prepared hell for the entertainment of the unbelievers. [18:100-103]

This is what people are doing, taking the servants of Allah as guardians besides Allah.

He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is Allah, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw. If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware. [35:13-14]

And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call? And when men are gathered together they shall be their enemies, and shall be deniers of their worshipping (them). [47:5-6]


Anyway, whatever way you want to see it the Quran makes a clear statement over and over again "Do not call upon other than Allah". This is a general statement, and is independent of the context. If Allah had wanted to, He could have said "Do not call upon other than Allah and His Messenger", or "Do not call upon other than Allah and those who he has chosen", but He didn't. On what basis does anyone then ignore this clear command, and call upon others?

Quote

Because people don't disappear after they die. And if you don't believe in the omnipresence of Ahlul Bayt in our lives then there's nothing really left to discuss.

The only being that is omnipresent is Allah سبحانه وتعالى. If you want to claim otherwise, then you need to prove it.

Edited by Haydar Husayn, 07 February 2012 - 08:04 AM.

[hameedeh]

Shia_Debater, on 07 February 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Wouldn't it be safer to say "Ya Allah (swt) please hasten the return of Imam Mahdi (atfs) bi haqqi Muhammad wa alihi"?

Brother, you said it ^^^^^ so much better than me, however, I still maintain that I speak to my God in my language and He understands me.

Quote

It just doesnt make sense to me that we can call upon other human beings

Ahlul Bayt AS ^^^^^ are superior to normal people. We can't compare them to our own selves. They are in the Qur'an and protectors of the Qur'an, owners of intelligence beyond comprehension. Imam AS said ask from a proper source:

Quote

H 12, Ch. 1, h 12
Imam Hassan ibn Ali (a.s) has said, "If you would ask for help do so from a proper source." He was
asked, "O grandson of the holy Prophet, ‘Who are the proper sources?" He replied, "They are those
about whom Allah has spoken in His book saying, "Only those who have understanding will take heed
and they are the people of intelligence."
http://www.islamic-l...pdf/Al-Kafi.pdf

Prophet Adam AS made tawassul before the Ahlul Bayt AS were born in their earthly bodies. Read this translator's note:  

Quote

Jalal al-Din Suyuti, Tafsir Durr al-Manthur, vol. 1, pp. 142-149 (Dar al-Fikr print, Beirut, 1983).
Translator's note: Suyuti is more elaborate when on p. 147, he says Adam supplicated to Allah by the right of Prophet Muhammad and his progeny (Allahumma bi-haqqi Muhammad wa Al-i Muhammad) He further quotes the Prophet (s) on the authority of 'Abdullah Ibn 'Abbas as saying that the words taught to Adam by God to seek forgiveness were: By the right of Muhammad, and 'Ali, and Fatimah, and Hasan and Husayn). Source: http://www.al-islam....rl=tawassul.htm

Quote

Again, this is clearly speaking about intercession on the Day of Judgement.

Haydar, ^^^^^ you are so nitpickingly literal! If the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS can make intercession on the Day of Judgement, and Allah SWT says in the Holy Qur'an that they are not dead but are alive, then Allah SWT can permit them to see and hear us and pray for our safety and forgiveness, if we are worthy of it. If we are not worthy of it, then on the Judgement Day our good deeds, including calling on them AS with their holy names, our intentions and our tears for Imam Husain AS may all add up to something, to help us, inshaAllah.

Quote

Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf. ~ Imam Ali AS, Letter 31, Nahjul Balagha

That quote ^^^^^ was on your profile yesterday. Let's ask ourselves, who is Imam Ali AS speaking to? It is a letter to his own infallible son AS telling him that he doesn't need intercession. Of course he AS doesn't need intercession. Imam Ali AS and his sons, the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS are the intercessors. Imam Ali AS is not speaking to us telling us we don't need an intercessor.

[Haydar Husayn]

hameedeh, on 07 February 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Haydar, ^^^^^ you are so nitpickingly literal! If the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS can make intercession on the Day of Judgement, and Allah SWT says in the Holy Qur'an that they are not dead but are alive, then Allah SWT can permit them to see and hear us and pray for our safety and forgiveness, if we are worthy of it. If we are not worthy of it, then on the Judgement Day our good deeds, including calling on them AS with their holy names, our intentions and our tears for Imam Husain AS may all add up to something, to help us, inshaAllah.

Yes, Allah could permit it if He wanted, but where is the evidence that He does permit it?

Quote

That quote ^^^^^ was on your profile yesterday. Let's ask ourselves, who is Imam Ali AS speaking to? It is a letter to his own infallible son AS telling him that he doesn't need intercession. Of course he AS doesn't need intercession. Imam Ali AS and his sons, the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS are the intercessors. Imam Ali AS is not speaking to us telling us we don't need an intercessor.

There is a difference of opinion over who the letter is addressed to. And think about it, why would Imam Ali have to give advice like that to his infallible son? Obviously he would already know that stuff, or would inherit that knowledge once he became the Imam. So either it wasn't addressed to Imam Hasan , or if it was, it was for our benefit since he would have already known all that.

Here is the introduction to the letter in a popular english translation of the book:

[ After returning from the Battle of Siffin, Imam Ali (a) gave certain pieces of advice to one of his sons. Some historians consider him to be Imam Hasan (a) while others are of the opinion that he was Muhammad Hanafiya. He wrote them in the form of a will. They deal with almost every aspect of life which goes a long way to make a man successful in life - brave, humane, generous, virtuous and pious. ]

And look at some of the things he says in the letter:

Quote

Do not talk about things which you do not know. Do not speculate about and pass verdicts on subjects about which you are not in a position to form an opinion and are not called upon to do so.

Quote

Give up the way where there is a possibility of your going astray. When there is danger on your wandering in the wilderness of ignorance, possibility of losing the sight of the goal which you want to attain and of reaching the end aimed at, then it is better to give up the quest than to advance facing uncertain dangers and unforeseen risks.

Quote

Originally my desire was only to teach you the Holy Book thoroughly, to make you understand its intricacies, to impart to you the complete knowledge of His commandments and interdictions and not to leave you at the mercy of the knowledge of other people.

But after having succeeded in this task I felt nervous that I may leave you untrained and uneducated in the subjects which themselves are subject to so much confusion and so many contradictions. These are the subjects whose confusions have been made worse confounded by selfish desires, warped minds, wicked ways of life and sinful modes of thinking.

Therefore, I have noted down, in these lines, the basic principles of nobility, piety, truth and justice.

You may feel them to be over-bearing and harsh but my desire is to equip you with this knowledge instead of leaving you unarmed to face the world where there is every danger of loss and damnation.

and other things I could quote.

Doesn't sound like this is being addressed to an infallible to me, and if it is then clearly it must be for our benefit and not his. And anyway, even if it was as you say, why couldn't they seek the intercession of the Prophet who was greater than them? Whatever way you look at it, your attempt to explain this away doesn't work.


It's really amazing to see how desperate people are to cling to this practice of calling upon others. You would think it would be the opposite, and that they would require extraordinary proof in order to go against the clear message of the Quran, which is to not call upon other than Allah and to not rely on other than Allah.

Edited by Haydar Husayn, 07 February 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[hameedeh]

Shia_Debater, on 07 February 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Abu Fadhl [as] is not part of the Ahlul Bayt [as] as far as I am aware, so can we still call on him?
If so then can we call on other companions who are family members who have been martyred such as Muslim ibn Aqeel [ra], Ja'far at-Tayyar [ra], Hamzah [ra] etc..
Can we call upon Companions who are not family members who have been martyred? i.e. some of the companions at karbala
Abu Fadhl [as] isn't in the Qur'an as far as I know.
No where does it mention asking those who have passed away.

Bro, some people do believe in what ^^^^^ you have mentioned:

Quote

Tawassul to the Prophets, saints, pious persons, martyrs and the righteous during supplications, whether in their lifetime or after their death, is permissible in the following manner:

Allahumma inni atawassalu ilayka bi-fulan an tujiba da'wati wa taqdia hajati (O Allah! I beseech you by means of so and so a person, accept my supplication and grant my request).[13]
Source: http://www.al-islam....awassul.htm#n13

Haydar Husayn, on 07 February 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

It's really amazing to see how desperate people are to cling to this practice of calling upon others.

Haydar, Wahabis reject intercession, but there are some Sunnis who go to the grave of RasulAllah and ask intercession. Allah SWT will answer them. Thank you for calling me desperate.

Quote

The Intercessors are five: the Quran, one's near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet (the Ahlul Bayt).[112]
Source: http://www.al-islam.org/shiism/9.htm

[Haydar Husayn]

hameedeh, on 07 February 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Haydar, Wahabis reject intercession, but there are some Sunnis who go to the grave of RasulAllah and ask intercession. Allah SWT will answer them. Thank you for calling me desperate.

I'm a Shia, not an anti-Wahhabi. I couldn't care less what they do, or what other Sunnis do. Most of the deviancy in our religion probably comes from the Sufi (Sunni) influence.

And yes, you are coming across as desperate to defend the indefensible. Allah tells you not to call on other than him, and so does Imam Ali , yet you want to clutch at non-existent straws about how the letter was addressed to an infallible.

Just answer me these two questions:

1) What if I am wrong? What is the worst that will happen to me?

2) What if you are wrong? What is the worst that will happen to you?

[hameedeh]

Quote

Wasilah al-Najat or the 'Means of Salvation' is the title of over 40 scientific treatises written by Shi'ah 'ulama'.[16]

Thus, as ascertained by Imami scholars, the Prophet (s) is the wasilah towards God for Muslims since he is the best exemplar and is in fact the 'Practical Qur'an'. So also is the Prophet's (s) infallible progeny ('a), who along with the Book of Allah (Holy Qur'an), is the immortal legacy of the Prophet and continuation of his path as borne out by the Hadith al-Thaqalayn which is unanimously confirmed by both Shi'ah and Sunni 'ulama'. Muslims, through the wasilah of these two, hold fast to divine laws and strive to attain Allah's proximity, since good deeds, obedience and adherence to the Qur'an, the Prophet (s) and his Infallible Ahl al-Bayt ('a) are the basis of shafa'at. Source: http://www.al-islam....awassul.htm#n13

[Haydar Husayn]

*Sigh*

They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 9:31, Shakir translation]


People need to learn to think for themselves. If you need the help of scholars on such a fundamental issue as Tawheed, then you are in trouble.

[hameedeh]

Haydar Husayn, on 07 February 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

*Sigh*

They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 9:31, Shakir translation]


People need to learn to think for themselves. If you need the help of scholars on such a fundamental issue as Tawheed, then you are in trouble.

Yesterday you belittled the member Allahuakbar for the Islamic book which was posted:

Quote

That book is such a joke

You told sister Enlightened_x that she should stop following "those who came before you" then mentioned an ayah about unbelievers committing indecency:

Quote

And when they commit an indecency they say: We found our fathers doing this

I see that Brother muhibb-ali had two messages this morning that you ignored.

Quote

???

You did not respond to my quote about five intercessors:

Quote

The Intercessors are five: the Quran, one's near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet (the Ahlul Bayt).

Why does your member title say "rock minded jaheel"?

[macisaac]

hameedeh, on 07 February 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

You did not respond to my quote about five intercessors:  

So, do you pray to the Quran, to your near relatives, and to your trusts too?  If no, do you think that might mean that the purpose of that tradition is not a proof that we should be doing so for the latter two?

[La fata illa Ali]

<sub>HH, I just wanna mention that you had asked me regarding tafseer of the ayats of sura munafiqoon but here u are more then willing to post verses without the tafseer.


All those verses you posted, plz post tafseer as well so we can discuss further.</sub>

Can we all agree on one point:

thats is, if the Prophet was alive today, wouldnt you all go upto him and say " Ya Rasulullah plz ask Allah (aj) to forgive me"


At least we can all agree on that right?

[ImamAliLover]

hameedeh, on 07 February 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

Thank you for the message, brother. According to the ayah that I posted above, the brothers of Prophet Yusuf AS were not asking Prophet Yusuf AS to forgive them. They were begging their father Prophet Ya'qub AS to ask Allah SWT to forgive them. Prophet Ya'qub AS promised to make intercession for them.

Edit: See my Post #19 above.

My dear Sister, as i said, i recommend reading the surah very well.  One could argue that Nabi Ya'qoob was more oppressed by the brothers than Yusuf .  This is because Nabi Yusuf was given a lot of comfort and power and Allah(swt) established him in the earth by the end of the story, whereas Nabi Ya'qoob spend the story mourning, until he became blind as a result of it, until his vision came back.

Even while in prision (which the brothers had nothing to do with), Nabi Yusuf spent the time doing da'wa and various things, but Nabi Ya'qoob was still saddened and grieved.

So i would argue that the brothers oppressed Nabi Ya'qoob more than Nabi Yusuf , so of course they should ask forgiveness from him.  And anothet evidence for this is when the brothers realized that the 'aziz was Yusuf , they said "Allah has most surely favored you over us" (loose translation)

And Allah (swt) knows best

[La fata illa Ali]

I didnt say anything about a distance...


Im saying if you were looking at the Prophet would you ask him to ask Allah (aj) to forgive you???

[Haydar Husayn]

La fata illa Ali, on 07 February 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

<sub>HH, I just wanna mention that you had asked me regarding tafseer of the ayats of sura munafiqoon but here u are more then willing to post verses without the tafseer.


All those verses you posted, plz post tafseer as well so we can discuss further.</sub>

Because those verses are all saying something clearly. You don't need tafseer to understand countless warnings not to call upon other than Allah. On the other hand, what you were trying to claim is not evident from the verses, so you need give the tafseer.

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. [3:7]


And the message of the Quran is clear:

Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too). [2:159]

O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah; [5:15]

Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers. [6:114]

Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book, whose verses are made decisive, then are they made plain, from the Wise, All-aware: [11:1]

Alif Lam Ra. These are the verses of the Book that makes (things) manifest. [12:1]

Alif Lam Ra. These are the verses of the Book and (of) a Quran that makes (things) clear. [15:1]

With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that perhaps they may reflect. [16:44]

And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit. [16:89]

Quote

Can we all agree on one point:

thats is, if the Prophet was alive today, wouldnt you all go upto him and say " Ya Rasulullah plz ask Allah (aj) to forgive me"


At least we can all agree on that right?

No, I do not agree. If everyone did that, then the Prophet would hardly have time to move, with all the people going up to him. If you look at all the verses in the Quran, you will see that the only times people asked prophets to pray for their forgiveness was when those prophets themselves had been wronged.

Obviously it makes a lot more sense to ask the Prophet to pray for your forgivness when you have wronged him, than it does to ask him to pray for your forgiveness when it is for a sin that has nothing to do with him, and is between you and Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

[hameedeh]

There are 61 topics at ShiaChat spelled tawassul and Haydar Husayn has to start a new topic about it? What is his motive?
Last night he was searching in a different topic for what he already posted there, in order to add it to this topic.
Let me ask you, Haydar Husayn, do you or do you not believe that we can say Ya Hussein? AS

[La fata illa Ali]

^ ^ @ HH: has got to be the silliest post I have ever seen from you...


The verses I provided were also clear, why did u demand a tafseer for them???


further more, its silly to say that the Prophet would be over whelmed by ppl asking him as to ask Allah (aj) for forgiveness as ppl dont ask for forgiveness 24/7 furthermore im sure u would be esteemed to be in his presence anyways and wouldnt be an everyday thing, basically u are providing a logistical issue which is more then hilarious.

Lastly, where did u come this conclusion that only if u wronged him, u need to seek forgiveness from him??? Thats a different issue, what I am saying is that the Prophet can ask Allah (aj) on your behalf for Allah (aj) to forgive your sins.



063.005
YUSUFALI: And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.
PICKTHAL: And when it is said unto them: Come! The messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you! they avert their faces and thou seest them turning away, disdainful.
SHAKIR: And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride.
063.006
YUSUFALI: It is equal to them whether thou pray for their forgiveness or not. Allah will not forgive them. Truly Allah guides not rebellious transgressors.
PICKTHAL: Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them. Lo! Allah guideth not the evil-living folk.
SHAKIR: It is alike to them whether you beg forgiveness for them or do not beg forgiveness for them; Allah will never forgive them; surely Allah does not guide the transgressing people.


According to the quran, if the Prophet was alive and you were urged to ask the prophet to  ask Allah (aj) for forgiveness, then you sir are a...


REBELLIOUS TRANSGRESSOR!!!

So i hope that you rethink the situation and let me ask once again:


If the Prophet was infront of you, you wouldn't take the opportunity to say. "Ya Rasulullah please ask Allah (aj) to forgive my sins"

think about it again...

Edited by La fata illa Ali, 07 February 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[Haydar Husayn]

hameedeh, on 07 February 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Yesterday you belittled the member Allahuakbar for the Islamic book which was posted:

I belittled the book, not him. What do you want me to say, that the book is good, when it isn't?

Quote

You told sister Enlightened_x that she should stop following "those who came before you" then mentioned an ayah about unbelievers committing indecency:

Considering the other verses I posted, I think it's clear why point was about not following those that came before you, not that I was accusing her of committing an indecency.

Quote

I see that Brother muhibb-ali had two messages this morning that you ignored.

Because what he posted wasn't relevant. I am looking for clear proof that it is permissible to call on others than Allah, and that proof has to be substantial in order to go against what the Quran says. As you know, any hadith that contradicts the Quran is to be rejected. So I would need words from the Imams that deal with this issue in some depth.

Quote

You did not respond to my quote about five intercessors:  

Again, this is talking about on the Day of Judgement.


Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 175

And know that this Qur'an is an adviser who never deceives, a leader who never misleads and a narrator who never speaks a lie. No one will sit beside this Qur'an but that when he rises he will achieve one addition or one diminution - addition in his guidance or elimination in his (spiritual) blindness. You should also know that no one will need anything after (guidance from) the Qur'an and no one will be free from want before (guidance from) the Qur'an.

Therefore, seek cure from it for your ailments and seek its assistance in your distresses. It contains a cure for the biggest diseases, namely unbelief, hypocrisy, revolt and misguidance. Pray to Allah through it and turn to Allah with its love. Do not ask the people through it. There is nothing like it through which the people should turn to Allah, the Sublime.

Know that it is an interceder and its intercession will be accepted. It is a speaker who is testified. For whoever the Qur'an intercedes on the Day of Judgement, its intercession for him would be accepted. He about whom the Qur'an speaks ill on the Day of Judgement shall testify to it.


Now, what people need to think about is whether the Quran will interceed for them on the Day of Judgement, when they are busy ignoring and explaining away so much of it.

Quote

Why does your member title say "rock minded jaheel"?

Quote

I reckon you guys are giving Haydar Husayn tooo much attention. He has proved his jahilee mentality.

Best option with such rock minded people is to ignore them. No need to allow him justify his retarded thoughts.

Just ignore the jaheel !!!

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2312598

hameedeh, on 07 February 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

There are 61 topics at ShiaChat spelled tawassul and Haydar Husayn has to start a new topic about it? What is his motive?
Last night he was searching in a different topic for what he already posted there, in order to add it to this topic.
Let me ask you, Haydar Husayn, do you or do you not believe that we can say Ya Hussein? AS

Here we go... What is my motive? Am I a Wahhabi? etc, etc.

My only motive is to warn people against Shirk.

Sure, we can say Ya Husayn, as a slogan. Not as in calling upon him.

La fata illa Ali, on 07 February 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Lastly, where did u come this conclusion that only if u wronged him, u need to seek forgiveness from him??? Thats a different issue, what I am saying is that the Prophet can ask Allah (aj) on your behalf for Allah (aj) to forgive your sins.



063.005
YUSUFALI: And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.
PICKTHAL: And when it is said unto them: Come! The messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you! they avert their faces and thou seest them turning away, disdainful.
SHAKIR: And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride.
063.006
YUSUFALI: It is equal to them whether thou pray for their forgiveness or not. Allah will not forgive them. Truly Allah guides not rebellious transgressors.
PICKTHAL: Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them. Lo! Allah guideth not the evil-living folk.
SHAKIR: It is alike to them whether you beg forgiveness for them or do not beg forgiveness for them; Allah will never forgive them; surely Allah does not guide the transgressing people.


According to the quran, if the Prophet was alive and you were one who didnt approach the prophet to ask for forgiveness, the you sir are a...


REBELLIOUS TRANSGRESSOR!!!

So i hope that you rethink the situation and let me ask once again:

Maybe you hadn't notice, but those verses are from Surah al-Munafiqun.

When the hypocrites come to you, they say: We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's Messenger; and Allah knows that you are most surely His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars. [63:1]

They make their oaths a shelter, and thus turn away from Allah's way; surely evil is that which they do. [63:2]

That is because they believe, then disbelieve, so a seal is set upon their hearts so that they do not understand. [63:3]

And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back? [63:4]

And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride. [64:5]


So yeah, I'm pretty sure the hypocrites of the time counted as people that wronged the Prophet .

Quote

If the Prophet was infront of you, you wouldn't take the opportunity to say. "Ya Rasulullah please ask Allah (aj) to forgive my sins"

think about it again...

No. If the Prophet deems me worthy of keeping in his prayers, then alhamdulillah, but I wouldn't necessarily go up to him and ask him to unless I had wronged him. Although there would be nothing wrong with asking him to pray for you of course. I just don't see the need, especially as insha'Allah he would interceed for me on the Day of Judgement anyway.

Regardless, this is a complete side issue. The topic is about calling on others than Allah.

[La fata illa Ali]

Today you have confirmed what u are to the whole world, congratulations.


salam salam.

[hameedeh]

Quote

So, do you pray to the Quran, to your near relatives, and to your trusts too?  If no, do you think that might mean that the purpose of that tradition is not a proof that we should be doing so for the latter two?

^^^ Bro, nobody is praying to the five intercessors. The five intercessors are beseeching Allah SWT for our benefit, inshaAllah.
The Holy Qur'an knows how many times we open it and how many times we cry over the words written there.

Quote

I reckon you guys are giving Haydar Husayn tooo much attention. He has proved his jahilee mentality.

Best option with such rock minded people is to ignore them. No need to allow him justify his retarded thoughts.

Just ignore the jaheel !!!

Haydar, thank you ^^^ for explaining that.

Quote

So i would argue that the brothers oppressed Nabi Ya'qoob  more than Nabi Yusuf , so of course they should ask forgiveness from him. And anothet evidence for this is when the brothers realized that the 'aziz was Yusuf , they said "Allah has most surely favored you over us" (loose translation)

And Allah (swt) knows best

^^^ ImamAliLover, thank you. Allah SWT knows best.

[Haydar Husayn]

La fata illa Ali, on 07 February 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Today you have confirmed what u are to the whole world, congratulations.


salam salam.

And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones. [7:179]