88 replies to this topic

[worshiper]

sisters - how many of u wd have no  problem wd ur husbands having more than one wife or wd hav probs concerning those aspects?
i m not tryinng to judge, its just for perspective.
peace be on u all.

Edited by aliabidkazim, 29 January 2012 - 11:56 PM.

[muslimah1]

salam, personally i think that if a man does take a second wife it means the first one isnt fulfilling all her duties as a wife , she may  be lacking with keeping the house a nice comfortable place for him, or she may be restricting him from what he wants in the bed room, or even she may be not supporting him emotionally, so i think if a women does find herself in a position were her husband has married a second wife before going to stab her husband she should think why he would want another one, no normal man is going to go find another wife if his first one is fulfilling all her duties...... but thats just my opinion, yeh i would be upset but if the fualt is in me i cant really blame him......

Edited by muslimah1, 30 January 2012 - 02:22 AM.

[BillyJo]

I say what Allah swt said:

[Yusufali 4:3] If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

[Yusufali 4:129] Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Put these two verses together and you will get the answer

[yellow billed magpie]

muslimah1, on 30 January 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

salam, personally i think that if a man does take a second wife it means the first one isnt fulfilling all her duties as a wife , she may  be lacking with keeping the house a nice comfortable place for him, or she may be restricting him from what he wants in the bed room, or even she may be not supporting him emotionally, so i think if a women does find herself in a position were her husband has married a second wife before going to stab her husband she should think why he would want another one, no normal man is going to go find another wife if his first one is fulfilling all her duties...... but thats just my opinion, yeh i would be upset but if the fualt is in me i cant really blame him......

Salam-I really wonder if he would know what he'd be getting himself into...The first one isnt acting right, so what the heck-lets get another one and see how THAT goes...I would hope they get along well, the 2 wives, that is...If not, he may very well have his hands full of misery:( Also. from what I understand, if a man seeks a second wife, he has to get permission from the first wife first. If she declines, then hes outta luck. And hes not supposed to go and just acquire more wives just to sleep with them-it has to be done with the right intentions and motivations,like because she needs someone to take care of her and/or her kids, or if the 1st wife is barren and unable to have kids,or if the first wife cuts him off sexually.Something like that.Wish I had a reference for this.

[muslimah1]

yellow billed magpie, on 30 January 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

Salam-I really wonder if he would know what he'd be getting himself into...The first one isnt acting right, so what the heck-lets get another one and see how THAT goes...I would hope they get along well, the 2 wives, that is...If not, he may very well have his hands full of misery:( Also. from what I understand, if a man seeks a second wife, he has to get permission from the first wife first. If she declines, then hes outta luck. And hes not supposed to go and just acquire more wives just to sleep with them-it has to be done with the right intentions and motivations,like because she needs someone to take care of her and/or her kids, or if the 1st wife is barren and unable to have kids,or if the first wife cuts him off sexually.Something like that.Wish I had a reference for this.

i didnt say that there smart for having a second wife loll i just said that may be why they go and find one , but your right who knows if the second is going to be any better, some sayeds say that you dont have to get her actual permission you just have to tell her that you are .....

[Golden-crowned]

muslimah1, on 30 January 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

salam, personally i think that if a man does take a second wife it means the first one isnt fulfilling all her duties as a wife , she may  be lacking with keeping the house a nice comfortable place for him, or she may be restricting him from what he wants in the bed room, or even she may be not supporting him emotionally....

Dont you think some men just yearn for variety of women ? some guys are easily bored and in general don't like repetition or the same thing over and over. (   I am talking about about SOME of them...) ofc it is different with if a wife has a kind of illness or any other issue which has made her disable to fulfill all her duties...

even if a wife has an illness, there are different kind of approaches which her husband can choose:

I have seen a man, her wife got a physical sickness and he got married again, after getting married her first wife became mentally sick and it has been many years that she hasn't left her home and even she doesnt talk to anyone, can't cook and take care of her childeren- she just blames herself. and I think her husband just made his problems doubled !

in other hand, I have seen one of my reltives, his wife got a very awful mental illness ( she can't remember things, even she can't remember her husband and her childeren ), but her husband didn't left her, he always says that his wife needs him, he just spends timetaking care of her and he has hope that a day she will be as healthy as before.

I think it dpends on that how much you feel "love" , love is beside devotion and sacrifice , it is like that we dont love anyone because of our desires, it is because of her/his being.

if a wife or a huasband loves her husband or his wife cuz of their needs, they should know, there is no end for needs and desires in Human. if you don't control them , you always want more and more!

and for sure, there are always all kind of excuses for those men who want to get married again!

Edited by Golden-crowned, 30 January 2012 - 04:08 AM.

[muslimah1]

Golden-crowned, on 30 January 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

Dont you think some men just yearn for variety of women ? some guys are easily bored and in general don't like repetition or the same thing over and over. (   I am talking about about SOME of them...)

what, if any man got married again because his wife "bores" him well then theres a problem. thats just crazy a man should learn to be with one lady. only because he has the ability to be with as much as he pleases doesnt mean he should....

[John Al-Ameli]

One woman gives a huge headache. Who would want two?

[muslimah1]

RoAcHy, on 30 January 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

One woman gives a huge headache. Who would want two?

you men try so hard to act like you dont love women , we all know the truth, you all know you wouldnt be able to live without a women.

[Marbles]

muslimah1, on 30 January 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

you men try so hard to act like you dont love women , we all know the truth, you all know you wouldnt be able to live without a women.

The fact that women give huge headaches to men does not at all mean that men don't love them or able to live without them

[Haydar Husayn]

Shi3i, on 30 January 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:

I say what Allah swt said:

[Yusufali 4:3] If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

[Yusufali 4:129] Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Put these two verses together and you will get the answer

Might be best to read the tafsir from the Imams .

[ 27254 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن نوح بن شعيب ومحمد بن الحسن قال: سأل ابن أبي العوجاء هشام بن الحكم فقال له: أ ليس الله حكيما؟ قال: بلى وهو أحكم الحاكمين، قال: فأخبرني عن قوله عزوجل: " فانكحوا ما طاب لكم من النساء مثنى وثلاث ورباع فإن خفتم إلا تعدلوا فواحدة " أ ليس هذا فرض؟ قال: بلى، قال: فأخبرني عن قوله عزوجل: " ولن تستطيعوا أن تعدلوا بين النساء ولو حرصتم فلا تميلوا كل الميل اي حكيم يتكلم بهذا فلم يكن عنده جواب فرحل إلى المدينة إلى أبي عبدالله عليه السلام فقال : ياهشام في غير وقت حج ولا عمرة؟ قال: نعم جعلت فداك لامر أهمني إن ابن أبي العوجاء سألني عن مسألة لم يكن عندي فيها شئ قال: وماهي؟ قال: فأخبره بالقصة فقال له أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: أما قوله عزوجل: " فانكحوا ماطاب لكم من النساء مثنى وثلاث ورباع فإن خفتم الا تعدلوا فواحدة " يعني في النفقة وأما قوله: " ولن تستطيعوا أن تعدلوا بين النساء ولو حرصتم فلا تميلوا كل الميل فتذروها كالمعلقة " يعني في المودة، قال: فلما قدم عليه هشام بهذا الجواب وأخبره قال: والله ماهذا من عندك.
ورواه الشيخ بإسناده عن محمد بن يعقوب ، مثله .
علي بن إبراهيم في ( تفسيره ) عن أبي جعفر الاحول ، مثله ، وزاد : فإنه لا يقدر أحد أن يعدل بين امرأتين في المودة .
أقول : هذا مخصوص بالقدر الواجب من النفقة ، أو محمول على الاستحباب لما مر .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Nuh b. Shu`ayb and Muhammad b. al-Hasan.  He said: Ibn Abi ‘l-`Awja’ asked Hisham b. al-Hakam.  He said to him:  Is Allah not wise?  He said:  Of course, rather He is the wisest of the wise.  He said:  So inform me about His عزوجل saying “so marry such women as seem good to you, two, three, four; but if you fear you will not be equitable, then one” (4:3) is this not obligatory?  He said: Yea.  He said:  So inform me about His عزوجل saying “You will not be able to be equitable between your wives, be you ever so eager; yet do not be altogether partial.”   (4:129) What kind of wise one would speak like this?  So he did not have an answer, so he travelled to Medina to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  And he said:  O Hisham, in neither the time of hajj nor `umra?  He said:  Yes, may I be made your ransom, for a matter that has distressed me.  Ibn Abi ‘l-`Awja’ asked me about an issue about which there is nothing with me.  He said:  And what is it?  He said:  So I told him the story.  So Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said to him:  As to His عزوجل saying “so marry such women as seem good to you, two, three, four; but if you fear you will not be equitable, then one”, it means in maintenance (an-nafaqa).  And as to His عزوجل saying “You will not be able to be equitable between your wives, be you ever so eager; yet do not be altogether partial so that you leave her as it were suspended” it means in love (al-muwadda).  He said:  So when Hisham came with this answer, and informed him, he said:  By Allah, this is not from you.

And the Shaykh narrated it by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ya`qub likewise.
`Ali b. Ibrahim in his Tafsir from Abu Ja`far al-Ahwal likewise, and he added: For verily no one is able to be equitable to two women in love.
I say: This is specific to the obligatory amount of maintenance, or interpreted to upon desirability, due to what has passed.

http://www.tashayyu....rmony/chapter-7

Edited by Haydar Husayn, 30 January 2012 - 08:04 AM.

[worshiper]

well guys!!!
when i ponder over history i think that both men n women lived their lives according to the will of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, so there is no point of females having objection to their spouse having more than one wife. but what bout males? was there any reason other than spreading religion that they married twice, thrice......
please mention if havent come across any.
w/s

[muslimah1]

Haydar Husayn, on 30 January 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Might be best to read the tafsir from the Imams .

[ 27254 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن نوح بن شعيب ومحمد بن الحسن قال: سأل ابن أبي العوجاء هشام بن الحكم فقال له: أ ليس الله حكيما؟ قال: بلى وهو أحكم الحاكمين، قال: فأخبرني عن قوله عزوجل: " فانكحوا ما طاب لكم من النساء مثنى وثلاث ورباع فإن خفتم إلا تعدلوا فواحدة " أ ليس هذا فرض؟ قال: بلى، قال: فأخبرني عن قوله عزوجل: " ولن تستطيعوا أن تعدلوا بين النساء ولو حرصتم فلا تميلوا كل الميل اي حكيم يتكلم بهذا فلم يكن عنده جواب فرحل إلى المدينة إلى أبي عبدالله عليه السلام فقال : ياهشام في غير وقت حج ولا عمرة؟ قال: نعم جعلت فداك لامر أهمني إن ابن أبي العوجاء سألني عن مسألة لم يكن عندي فيها شئ قال: وماهي؟ قال: فأخبره بالقصة فقال له أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: أما قوله عزوجل: " فانكحوا ماطاب لكم من النساء مثنى وثلاث ورباع فإن خفتم الا تعدلوا فواحدة " يعني في النفقة وأما قوله: " ولن تستطيعوا أن تعدلوا بين النساء ولو حرصتم فلا تميلوا كل الميل فتذروها كالمعلقة " يعني في المودة، قال: فلما قدم عليه هشام بهذا الجواب وأخبره قال: والله ماهذا من عندك.
ورواه الشيخ بإسناده عن محمد بن يعقوب ، مثله .
علي بن إبراهيم في ( تفسيره ) عن أبي جعفر الاحول ، مثله ، وزاد : فإنه لا يقدر أحد أن يعدل بين امرأتين في المودة .
أقول : هذا مخصوص بالقدر الواجب من النفقة ، أو محمول على الاستحباب لما مر .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Nuh b. Shu`ayb and Muhammad b. al-Hasan.  He said: Ibn Abi ‘l-`Awja’ asked Hisham b. al-Hakam.  He said to him:  Is Allah not wise?  He said:  Of course, rather He is the wisest of the wise.  He said:  So inform me about His عزوجل saying “so marry such women as seem good to you, two, three, four; but if you fear you will not be equitable, then one” (4:3) is this not obligatory?  He said: Yea.  He said:  So inform me about His عزوجل saying “You will not be able to be equitable between your wives, be you ever so eager; yet do not be altogether partial.”   (4:129) What kind of wise one would speak like this?  So he did not have an answer, so he travelled to Medina to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  And he said:  O Hisham, in neither the time of hajj nor `umra?  He said:  Yes, may I be made your ransom, for a matter that has distressed me.  Ibn Abi ‘l-`Awja’ asked me about an issue about which there is nothing with me.  He said:  And what is it?  He said:  So I told him the story.  So Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said to him:  As to His عزوجل saying “so marry such women as seem good to you, two, three, four; but if you fear you will not be equitable, then one”, it means in maintenance (an-nafaqa).  And as to His عزوجل saying “You will not be able to be equitable between your wives, be you ever so eager; yet do not be altogether partial so that you leave her as it were suspended” it means in love (al-muwadda).  He said:  So when Hisham came with this answer, and informed him, he said:  By Allah, this is not from you.

And the Shaykh narrated it by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ya`qub likewise.
`Ali b. Ibrahim in his Tafsir from Abu Ja`far al-Ahwal likewise, and he added: For verily no one is able to be equitable to two women in love.
I say: This is specific to the obligatory amount of maintenance, or interpreted to upon desirability, due to what has passed.

http://www.tashayyu....rmony/chapter-7

thanx so much for sharing that i actually was thinking hmmmmmmmmmm? when the post you explained was made but now its all clear jazakallahh khair!

[lalala123]

I really don't think i'd cope very well.

[yellow billed magpie]

Haydar Husayn, on 30 January 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Might be best to read the tafsir from the Imams .

[ 27254 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن نوح بن شعيب ومحمد بن الحسن قال: سأل ابن أبي العوجاء هشام بن الحكم فقال له: أ ليس الله حكيما؟ قال: بلى وهو أحكم الحاكمين، قال: فأخبرني عن قوله عزوجل: " فانكحوا ما طاب لكم من النساء مثنى وثلاث ورباع فإن خفتم إلا تعدلوا فواحدة " أ ليس هذا فرض؟ قال: بلى، قال: فأخبرني عن قوله عزوجل: " ولن تستطيعوا أن تعدلوا بين النساء ولو حرصتم فلا تميلوا كل الميل اي حكيم يتكلم بهذا فلم يكن عنده جواب فرحل إلى المدينة إلى أبي عبدالله عليه السلام فقال : ياهشام في غير وقت حج ولا عمرة؟ قال: نعم جعلت فداك لامر أهمني إن ابن أبي العوجاء سألني عن مسألة لم يكن عندي فيها شئ قال: وماهي؟ قال: فأخبره بالقصة فقال له أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: أما قوله عزوجل: " فانكحوا ماطاب لكم من النساء مثنى وثلاث ورباع فإن خفتم الا تعدلوا فواحدة " يعني في النفقة وأما قوله: " ولن تستطيعوا أن تعدلوا بين النساء ولو حرصتم فلا تميلوا كل الميل فتذروها كالمعلقة " يعني في المودة، قال: فلما قدم عليه هشام بهذا الجواب وأخبره قال: والله ماهذا من عندك.
ورواه الشيخ بإسناده عن محمد بن يعقوب ، مثله .
علي بن إبراهيم في ( تفسيره ) عن أبي جعفر الاحول ، مثله ، وزاد : فإنه لا يقدر أحد أن يعدل بين امرأتين في المودة .
أقول : هذا مخصوص بالقدر الواجب من النفقة ، أو محمول على الاستحباب لما مر .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Nuh b. Shu`ayb and Muhammad b. al-Hasan.  He said: Ibn Abi ‘l-`Awja’ asked Hisham b. al-Hakam.  He said to him:  Is Allah not wise?  He said:  Of course, rather He is the wisest of the wise.  He said:  So inform me about His عزوجل saying “so marry such women as seem good to you, two, three, four; but if you fear you will not be equitable, then one” (4:3) is this not obligatory?  He said: Yea.  He said:  So inform me about His عزوجل saying “You will not be able to be equitable between your wives, be you ever so eager; yet do not be altogether partial.”   (4:129) What kind of wise one would speak like this?  So he did not have an answer, so he travelled to Medina to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  And he said:  O Hisham, in neither the time of hajj nor `umra?  He said:  Yes, may I be made your ransom, for a matter that has distressed me.  Ibn Abi ‘l-`Awja’ asked me about an issue about which there is nothing with me.  He said:  And what is it?  He said:  So I told him the story.  So Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said to him:  As to His عزوجل saying “so marry such women as seem good to you, two, three, four; but if you fear you will not be equitable, then one”, it means in maintenance (an-nafaqa).  And as to His عزوجل saying “You will not be able to be equitable between your wives, be you ever so eager; yet do not be altogether partial so that you leave her as it were suspended” it means in love (al-muwadda).  He said:  So when Hisham came with this answer, and informed him, he said:  By Allah, this is not from you.

And the Shaykh narrated it by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ya`qub likewise.
`Ali b. Ibrahim in his Tafsir from Abu Ja`far al-Ahwal likewise, and he added: For verily no one is able to be equitable to two women in love.
I say: This is specific to the obligatory amount of maintenance, or interpreted to upon desirability, due to what has passed.

http://www.tashayyu....rmony/chapter-7

Salam-so what I think I would do is avoid the situation altogether unless its absolutely necessary,considering that the chances of being fair between them is slim to none-no one should have to feel/be treated as a 3rd wheel.Its just not right, unless the woman is willing to live with that situation,as maybe the benefit of the situation for her outweighs the harm. Great info! Thanks for posting!

lalala123, on 30 January 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

I really don't think i'd cope very well.

Salam-Ive been trying my hardest to at least accept the idea, simply because I want to completely submit to Allahs will and Word, but THIS area is the one I have THE MOST problem with,lol! I have to say I am in the same boat as you-I KNOW, (at least at this point) I would NOT fair well in this kind of situation.In fact, in all honesty, I would probably opt for divorce rather than be miserable myself and making everybody around me miserable:) PEACE!

[Haydar Husayn]

lalala123, on 30 January 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

I really don't think i'd cope very well.

I guess you better pray you're never in that situation then. Otherwise I suppose you're going to have to deal with it somehow.

[yellow billed magpie]

Golden-crowned, on 30 January 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

Dont you think some men just yearn for variety of women ? some guys are easily bored and in general don't like repetition or the same thing over and over. (   I am talking about about SOME of them...) ofc it is different with if a wife has a kind of illness or any other issue which has made her disable to fulfill all her duties...

even if a wife has an illness, there are different kind of approaches which her husband can choose:

I have seen a man, her wife got a physical sickness and he got married again, after getting married her first wife became mentally sick and it has been many years that she hasn't left her home and even she doesnt talk to anyone, can't cook and take care of her childeren- she just blames herself. and I think her husband just made his problems doubled !

in other hand, I have seen one of my reltives, his wife got a very awful mental illness ( she can't remember things, even she can't remember her husband and her childeren ), but her husband didn't left her, he always says that his wife needs him, he just spends timetaking care of her and he has hope that a day she will be as healthy as before.

I think it dpends on that how much you feel "love" , love is beside devotion and sacrifice , it is like that we dont love anyone because of our desires, it is because of her/his being.

if a wife or a huasband loves her husband or his wife cuz of their needs, they should know, there is no end for needs and desires in Human. if you don't control them , you always want more and more!

and for sure, there are always all kind of excuses for those men who want to get married again!

Salam-I agree with your post-someone I know once tried to explain it to me that man is not like woman in relationships and that man is capable of 'loving' more than one woman at one time-then, he tried to use the relationship a woman has with her multiple children-that she loves them all at the same time-Umm...PRETTY SURE THESE ARE NOT THE SAME,LOL! Nice try, though-I still remain unconvinced of his arguemen t:/

[lalala123]

Haydar Husayn, on 30 January 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

I guess you better pray you're never in that situation then. Otherwise I suppose you're going to have to deal with it somehow.

I'll tell him before marriage I don't want to be play second fiddle to his newest piece of fluff.  And if he was to still go ahead and marry someone else, i would get a divorce.

[Haydar Husayn]

lalala123, on 30 January 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

I'll tell him before marriage I don't want to be play second fiddle to his newest piece of fluff.  And if he was to still go ahead and marry someone else, i would get a divorce.

If you tried forcing a divorce for unislamic reasons, then you might be held responsible for it in the hereafter, especially if it led to other negative consequences.

Anyway, if you had kids, then it doesn't seem very smart to divorce your husband, and leave yourself in a situation where you would find it very hard to marry someone else. Even if you could, he may not be as good as your first husband was. If you have a good husband, wouldn't it just make more sense to share him, than to not have him at all? Seems like cutting off your nose to spite you face to me.

All I can say is women in the West are lucky they would be given custody of the kids, because in an Islamic society they would really be shooting themselves in the foot by forcing a divorce, since the father would get the children.

[kim.tinkerbell]

aliabidkazim, on 30 January 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

so there is no point of females having objection to their spouse having more than one wife.

Oh they can, some may feel sick of the husbands faces, they may feel cheated on. Ofcourse cheating isint in a muslim mans vocabulary ....

Theres not point being with a flithy ungratful person either....

Divorce is very fashionable these days,......

[hubbe_hussein110]

kim.tinkerbell, on 30 January 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Oh they can, some may feel sick of the husbands faces, they may feel cheated on. Ofcourse cheating isint in a muslim mans vocabulary ....

Theres not point being with a flithy ungratful person either....

Divorce is very fashionable these days,......

x Dislike This

[Mutah_King]

kim.tinkerbell, on 30 January 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Oh they can, some may feel sick of the husbands faces, they may feel cheated on. Ofcourse cheating isint in a muslim mans vocabulary ....

Theres not point being with a flithy ungratful person either....

Divorce is very fashionable these days,......

x Dislike This -2

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL at Roachy's signature

[kim.tinkerbell]

Good for you....

[worshiper]

kim.tinkerbell, on 30 January 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Oh they can, some may feel sick of the husbands faces, they may feel cheated on. Ofcourse cheating isint in a muslim mans vocabulary ....

Theres not point being with a flithy ungratful person either....

Divorce is very fashionable these days,......

sorry!!!i ,made a mistake .
it was "so there WAS no point of objecting"
ws

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

Mutah_King, on 31 January 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

x Dislike This -2

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL at Roachy's signature

Who is that in your avatar/picture? I am sorry but whenever i see that it makes me laugh.