55 replies to this topic

[ShiaPoet]

Alf, on 22 February 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

brother please stop trying to equate this to tawassul

this is nowhere near the same

they asked their father who was alive and present, not someone in the grave

totally different

Salam
Dear Alf

"Think not of those who are slain in Allah's Way as dead. No, they are alive and find sustenance in the presence of their Lord." - Surah Aal-e-Imran Ayah 169

Imams will listen and respond to us.

[Haydar Husayn]

Martyrdom, on 22 February 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Salam
Its irreverent who's saying it if you really care after the truth all you should care about what's being said  plus I could have sited them but the chances are you weren't going to check them out  but you haven't answered the question I posed at the end?

Ok, fine. I'll quickly go through the main points.

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Tawassul is anything which becomes a means to gain nearness to Allah. In its general Islamic meaning, everything which takes us near Our Lord is mediation. Therefore all good deeds such as faith in Allah and the Prophet (peace be upon them), prayers, fasting, Hajj, and other deeds serve as
mediators that draw us nearer to Allah.

Indeed, and what is the greatest of those means to gain nearness? Imam Ali (a) answers:

Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 109

The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.


Nothing here about calling upon other than Allah, or going through someone in order to get to Allah, a concept the Imam also dismisses:

Nahjul Balagha, Letter 31

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.

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There are many ways to get near to him and this is really what where discussing here one of the ways and that’s The Prophets and Imams(AS). In the Holy Qur'an (5:35), it says: "O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful." The scholars in exegesis to the above verse of holy Qur'an say that the mediation from Prophets, Imams or the righteous servants of Allah is included in the meaning of mediation. Allama Tabatabai discusses the verse in Al-Mizan in the following words:
"Al-Qummi has written about the words of Allah: 'O you who believe! Fear Allah and seek means of nearness to Him...' that (the Imam) said, 'Come near Allah through the Imam'... That is, through obedience to the Imam. Thus it is based on the flow of the Qur'an, and applies the verse to its best import... The Leader of the Faithful said about the Divine Word 'and seek means of nearness to Him': 'I am the means of nearness to Him'."

Exactly, obedience to the Imam. Nothing about calling upon him or asking him to pray to Allah on your behalf.

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In a lengthy narration known as the Hadith of Wasila, the Prophet is reported to have said, "When you ask from Allah, ask for me the Wasila... It is my rank in the Garden..."

Yes, when you ask from Allah. The point is that you are actually asking from Allah, and not the Prophet or the Imam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

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Imam as-Sajjad (peace be upon him) on mediation:
My God, I have no mediation with Thee but the tender acts of Thy clemency, nor any way to come to Thee but the gentle favors of Thy mercy and the intercession of Thy Prophet, the prophet of mercy, who rescued the community from confusion. Make these two my tie to attaining Thy forgiveness and let them take me to triumph through Thy good pleasure! My hope has dismounted in the sacred precinct of Thy generosity, my craving has alighted in the courtyard of Thy munificence. So actualize my expectation from Thee, seal my works with good, and place me among Thy selected friends, those whom Thou hast set down in the midst of Thy Garden, and settled in the abode of Thy honor, whose eyes Thou hast gladdened by gazing upon Thee on the day of meeting Thee, and whom Thou hast made heirs to the sure stations in Thy neighborhood!
O He none more generous than whom is reached by the reachers and none more merciful than whom is found by the aimers! O Best of those with whom the lonely are alone, O Tenderest of those with whom outcasts seek haven! Toward the expanse of Thy pardon have I extended my hand, upon the skirt of Thy generosity have I fastened my grasp! Show me no deprivation and afflict me not with disappointment and loss! O Hearer of supplications! O Most Merciful of the merciful!"

Notice that Imam Sajjad (a) is actually addressing Allah (swt) here, and not the Prophet , just as in all his other duas. The intercession he is referring to is simply the intercession on the Day of Judgement.

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Allah says in the Holy Qur'an, "Oh you who believe: be aware of Allah and seek to Him theWaseela (intermediate to reach Him)" (5:35). The verse obviously commands the believers to seek intermediates to reach Allah. Why? Because He made the perfect system, and He knows that we reach our perfection by utilizing the system appropriately. Among these "intermediates" are those Allah has chosen to guide us, such as the greatest of Allah's Creation, Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family).

Obviously?? Wow. Is this the kind of brilliant argument people are impressed with, by simply stating that it is obvious? Where is the proof for this 'perfect system'?

Allah (swt) deals with 'systems' of this type in the Qur'an:

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]


Here is Allah's perfect system: call on nobody other than Allah and do not seek intercessors with him. This way nobody can ever get close to shirk.

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"And if they had – after having done injustice to themselves – come to you (Muhammad) and asked Allah for forgiveness, and the Messenger then would ask Allah to forgive them, they would have found that Allah is Oft-Returning (to Mercy), Merciful” (4:64).

This is talking about hypocrites that had wronged the Prophet , and had nothing to do with people just coming up to him to ask him to pray on their behalf for random sins. Here is the context:

  And when it is said to them: Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger, you will see the hypocrites turning away from you with (utter) aversion. But how will it be when misfortune befalls them on account of what their hands have sent before? Then they will come to you swearing by Allah: We did not desire (anything) but good and concord. These are they of whom Allah knows what is in their hearts; therefore turn aside from them and admonish them, and speak to them effectual words concerning themselves. And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.   [4:61-64]

It's the same in all the cases in the Quran when people asked prophets to ask for forgiveness on their behalf, they had always wronged that particular prophet.

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When an aware believer says "Oh Ali!" (s)he is not truly seeking Imam Ali (peace be upon him). Rather, the believer seeks Allah, and because Allah has commanded the believer to seek Him through the chosen intermediates, the believer does not hesitate to do so.

Alla has never commanded such a thing, and has in fact explictly said the opposite in the Qur'an. As for an 'aware believer' not actually asking for Imam Ali (a)'s help, that is completely untrue. Many Shias believe Imam Ali (a) controls every atom in the universe, and hears their supplications to him, and in fact do believe he helps them from the power given to him by Allah.

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"So what? Are we saying that calling out 'Oh Allah!' is not sufficient?!" No…but one cannot deny that Allah has commanded us to seek Him in a specific way, i.e. via these intermediates.

Yes, I do deny it, since the Qur'an says the exact opposite, as does Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

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If one calls out "Oh Ali!" thinking that Imam Ali (peace be upon him) can independently do anything for the person, it is definitely Shirk.

Ah, here we go, 'independently'. So in fact the 'aware believer' is calling upon Ali (a) help him, but just as long as he keeps in mind that the Imam's power is not independent of Allah's, then it's all good. What the author of this article is promoting is just as surely Shirk as what he is criticising.

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Similarly, if one knowingly calls out "Oh Allah!" without seeking Him through the appropriate means –at heart – then such a call cannot be considered true obedience to the Wisest of Planners.

I'm not sure what he means here, but it sounds like nonsense.

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"But God would not punish them while YOU WERE PRESENT in their midst. Nor would He punish them if they SOUGHT FORGIVENESS" (8:33). In this verse the physical presence of the holy prophet is equated with Isteghfar (seeking forgiveness) as far as protection from God's punishment is concerned. Thus It is clear that physical proximity with the holy prophet make potential for us to receive God's grace.

What?

And when they said: O Allah! if this is the truth from Thee, then rain upon us stones from heaven or inflict on us a painful punishment. But Allah was not going to chastise them while you were among them, nor is Allah going to chastise them while yet they ask for forgiveness. And what (excuse) have they that Allah should not chastise them while they hinder (men) from the Sacred Mosque and they are not (fit to be) guardians of it; its guardians are only those who guard (against evil), but most of them do not know. [8:32-34]

Looks to me like Allah is simply saying he isn't going to rain stones down on them while the Prophet was among them, which makes sense. Anyway, in order to claim that the verse means what this person says it does, he needs to provide a hadith to back it up, because his interpretation is far from the obvious meaning of the text.

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To give you another example we read in the holy Qur'an that Prophet. Yousuf tells his brothers "Take this shirt of mine and throw it over my father's face: he will recover his sight. Then return to me with all your people" (12:93). Think about this, Ya'ghub himself is a
prophet and Yousuf's father, why doesn't his own shirt do the same thing? First because the act of recovery is not a function of the shirt, it is God's action, second God's wants to educate us and tell us that He puts Rahmah (grace) in the physical belongings of his true servants and encourages us to have close and respectful relationships with them for those relationships make us ready for more Taghva. To encourage this He bestows some special Rahmah in his true servants. Like the one in the physical presence of the holy prophet and the one in Yousuf's shirt.

Again, some ahadith are going to be need to back up this interpretation. You can't just make claims about what Allah is trying to teach us in the Quran, unless it is completely obvious. Strangely enough, when it is obvious, like when Allah says over and over again not to call on anyone other than Him, then everyone seems to miss that lesson. There is a term for this kind of thing, it's called confirmation bias. In other words, people only see the things that back up what they already believe.

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The Holy Quran Says
They said, 'Father! Plead {with Allah} for forgiveness of our sins! We have indeed been erring'. He said, 'I shall plead with my Lord to forgive you; indeed He is the All-forgiving, the All-merciful'.[32]
In these verses, the sons of Ya'qub ('a) resorted to the intermediation of their father. They had committed mistakes so many times; they had annoyed and disturbed two prophets of God (Ya'qub and Yusuf (Joseph) ('a)), and transgressed the command of God by annoying their parents and telling lies. Since those mistakes required the sons to seek forgiveness, they took their father as their intercessor; so this action has not been denied or rejected in the Qur'an.
Since God does not reproach the sons of Ya'qub for resorting to two persons of those who are near to Him {muqarrabun}, it can be concluded that there is nothing wrong in entreating the Prophet (s) especially since the eminence of his rank and the loftiness of his station are not hidden to anyone.

The main point, which the author misses, is that they had wronged Yaqoob , and so were asking him to pray for forgiveness on their behalf. It wasn't like they were asking him to praying for their forgiveness in the matter of sins that had nothing to do with their father.

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The other verse which may be cited is the following:
Had they, when they wronged themselves, come to you and pleaded Allah for forgiveness, and the Apostle had pleaded for forgiveness for them, they would have surely found Allah All-clement, All-merciful.[33]
It can be deduced from this verse that the intermediation of the Holy Prophet (s) can also be resorted to in asking God for forgiveness of sins.

I already gave the context for this verse, and the explanation of why it doesn't prove what the author is seeking to prove.


Notice also that in all this, there very fact that the Prophet (pubh) and Imams are capable of hearing you when you supplicate from afar was never established, nor was any evidence of this type of thing presented from the Qur'an or the ahadith. This is because they cannot hear you from anywhere: http://www.shiachat....re-all-hearing/

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Anyways sorry if the post is too long but I want to ask you a question to see what you think. In the following verse:
(We revealed to Moses' mother, "Suckle him and then when you fear for him, cast him into the sea. Do not fear or grieve; We will return him to you and make him one of the messengers.") (Al-Qasas 28:7) Allah(SWT) says that he revealed to Prophet Moses(AS) mother my question is His mother was not a Prophet nor an Imam in what way do you think Allah(swt) revealed to her what to do?

I'm not sure. Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an that He revealed the Qur'an to the Prophet Muhammad , but we know that was done through angel Jibrail Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. So the fact that Allah says He revealed something to Moses' mother, it doesn't mean He spoke directly to her. There are many possibilities.

[ShiaPoet]

Salam

It depends on your intention

When you ask an Imam for intercession then you keep in mind:

"My Imams are the best people in the Sight of Allah. Allah would respond to my Duaa differently if I ask through an Imam."

That's why we call upon Allah through Imams.

[Alejandro Sosa]

wow Haydar just shut this down

excellent post again

also thanks to baradar jackson for his pm on this issue

[Alejandro Sosa]

ShiaPoet, on 22 February 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Salam
Dear Alf

"Think not of those who are slain in Allah's Way as dead. No, they are alive and find sustenance in the presence of their Lord." - Surah Aal-e-Imran Ayah 169

Imams will listen and respond to us.

wa alaikum as salaam

That ayah does not say these people can respond to you. You have taken that conclusion from where? & as brother Haydar has pointed out, even the nabi himself (sawas) has our salaams conveyed to him via angels - not directly.

[Martyrdom]

Haydar Husayn, on 22 February 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Indeed, and what is the greatest of those means to gain nearness? Imam Ali (a) answers:

Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 109

The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.

Nothing here about calling upon other than Allah, or going through someone in order to get to Allah, a concept the Imam also dismisses
No not mentioning something and dismissing it are two different things your dismissing it not him notice how the Imam(AS) starts of by saying "The Best Means" not the "Only Means"  theirs a difference.  Don"t tell me since Imam(AS) did not mention it THEREFORE hes not promoting it  give me conclusive evidence like Imam actually says something like Tawassul is forbidden.  Any of the Prophets or Imams it doesn't just have to be Imam Ali(AS) saying it .

Nahjul Balagha, Letter 31

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.
First Prophets and Imams dont PREVENT anything not just prayers from reaching Allah(SWT) . Again notice How the Imam(AS) says nor is their ANY NEED not No one will Intercede on you behave . Allah(SWt) is in no need of anything we need him . Also Quran take priority over any hadith and we know in some verses Allah(swt) forbid intercession and some verses where Allah(swt) makes an exception  so you have to take what Imam(as) in its proper context not your context.  


Yes, when you ask from Allah. The point is that you are actually asking from Allah, and not the Prophet or the Imam عليه السلا
Of course only Allah(swt) can helps us  what where saying is where asking Allah(swt) Through the Prophets and Imams because we know we have a better chance of Allah(swt) helping us.  
Notice that Imam Sajjad (a) is actually addressing Allah (swt) here, and not the Prophet , just as in all his other duas. The intercession he is referring to is simply the intercession on the Day of Judgement.
All of a sudden your an expert on what the Imam is referring to give me proof thats what hes referring to.


Obviously?? Wow. Is this the kind of brilliant argument people are impressed with, by simply stating that it is obvious? Where is the proof for this 'perfect system'?
Wheres the proof of its imprecation the burden of proof is on you.
Allah (swt) deals with 'systems' of this type in the Qur'an:

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]


Here is Allah's perfect system: call on nobody other than Allah and do not seek intercessors with him. This way nobody can ever get close to shirk.

Your are misleading the truth why dont you tell us who the verses was revealed about. what about the verses that Allah(swt) makes an exception why dont you mention those verses.  

This is talking about hypocrites that had wronged the Prophet , and had nothing to do with people just coming up to him to ask him to pray on their behalf for random sins. Here is the context:

  And when it is said to them: Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger, you will see the hypocrites turning away from you with (utter) aversion. But how will it be when misfortune befalls them on account of what their hands have sent before? Then they will come to you swearing by Allah: We did not desire (anything) but good and concord. These are they of whom Allah knows what is in their hearts; therefore turn aside from them and admonish them, and speak to them effectual words concerning themselves. And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.   [4:61-64]

It's the same in all the cases in the Quran when people asked prophets to ask for forgiveness on their behalf, they had always wronged that particular prophet.

So Believers never wrong themselves  they are Infallible? And if hypocrites can ask Prophets believers cannot  come on lets be serious. GIVE ME ONE BELIEVER ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH THAT DOES NOT WRONG THE PROPHET atleast once in their life.  and when I say wronged I mean by dishonoring his teachings one way or another or other ways.  



Alla has never commanded such a thing, and has in fact explictly said the opposite in the Qur'an. As for an 'aware believer' not actually asking for Imam Ali (a)'s help, that is completely untrue. Many Shias believe Imam Ali (a) controls every atom in the universe, and hears their supplications to him, and in fact do believe he helps them from the power given to him by Allah(SWT)

In all honesty Im not sure about Imam(a) controlling every atom in the universe so I cant tell you Im one of those shias. .

Ah, here we go, 'independently'. So in fact the 'aware believer' is calling upon Ali (a) help him, but just as long as he keeps in mind that the Imam's power is not independent of Allah's, then it's all good. What the author of this article is promoting is just as surely Shirk as what he is criticising.
Not true he makes perfect sense all he saying is basically is that Allah(swt) can delegate power to whomever he wants to . I dont know why you want to limit Allah(swt) power.  your looking at the cup half empty not half full



What?

And when they said: O Allah! if this is the truth from Thee, then rain upon us stones from heaven or inflict on us a painful punishment. But Allah was not going to chastise them while you were among them, nor is Allah going to chastise them while yet they ask for forgiveness. And what (excuse) have they that Allah should not chastise them while they hinder (men) from the Sacred Mosque and they are not (fit to be) guardians of it; its guardians are only those who guard (against evil), but most of them do not know. [8:32-34]

Looks to me like Allah is simply saying he isn't going to rain stones down on them while the Prophet was among them, which makes sense. Anyway, in order to claim that the verse means what this person says it does, he needs to provide a hadith to back it up, because his interpretation is far from the obvious meaning of the text
You need to provide hadith because its obvious to us



Again, some ahadith are going to be need to back up this interpretation. You can't just make claims about what Allah is trying to teach us in the Quran, unless it is completely obvious. Strangely enough, when it is obvious, like when Allah says over and over again not to call on anyone other than Him, then everyone seems to miss that lesson. There is a term for this kind of thing, it's called confirmation bias. In other words, people only see the things that back up what they already believe
Your a victim to that too  



The main point, which the author misses, is that they had wronged Yaqoob , and so were asking him to pray for forgiveness on their behalf. It wasn't like they were asking him to praying for their forgiveness in the matter of sins that had nothing to do with their father
They where still ASKING the prophet thats what the whole discussion is about why didn't they go straight to Allah(SWT) or why didn't the Prophet tell them too. Your begging the question brother.

I'm not sure. Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an that He revealed the Qur'an to the Prophet Muhammad , but we know that was done through angel Jibrail عليه السلام. So the fact that Allah says He revealed something to Moses' mother, it doesn't mean He spoke directly to her. There are many possibilities.

​Brother you are contradicting yourself first you say Your not sure then you say it doesn't mean that he spoke directly to her you haven't established that fact you yourself said their are MANY possibilities what dont you list them.  Lets not forget shes not a Prophet nor an Imam and you said Allah(SWT) doesn't contact us directly  but we know for a FACT that he contacted Prophet Moses(a) mother so what are the possibilities.

little side note I think your just taking the safe side by staying away by anything what you might think is shirk or resembles shirk which in a way I respect that.    

Salam

[Haydar Husayn]

Martyrdom, on 23 February 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

No not mentioning something and dismissing it are two different things your dismissing it not him notice how the Imam(AS) starts of by saying "The Best Means" not the "Only Means" theirs a difference. Don"t tell me since Imam(AS) did not mention it THEREFORE hes not promoting it give me conclusive evidence like Imam actually says something like Tawassul is forbidden. Any of the Prophets or Imams it doesn't just have to be Imam Ali(AS) saying it .

The point was Imam Ali (a) listed a bunch of stuff, and didn't include asking the Prophet to pray on your behalf, or asking the Prophet for your needs. As for having to prove Tawassul is forbidden, there are numerous verses from the Quran and ahadith that say it is forbidden to call upon other than Allah. So it is now up to you to provide evidence that these verses and ahadith can be qualified in such a way as to allow for the possibility of Tawassul.

http://www.shiachat....h-in-the-quran/

from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: Verily these `awamm claim that shirk is more obscure than the creeping of the ant in a dark night upon the black haircloth. So he said: The servant is not a mushrik until he prays to other than Allah, or slaughters (an animal) for other than Allah, or supplicates to other than Allah `azza wa jalla.

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First Prophets and Imams dont PREVENT anything not just prayers from reaching Allah(SWT) . Again notice How the Imam(AS) says nor is their ANY NEED not No one will Intercede on you behave . Allah(SWt) is in no need of anything we need him . Also Quran take priority over any hadith and we know in some verses Allah(swt) forbid intercession and some verses where Allah(swt) makes an exception so you have to take what Imam(as) in its proper context not your context.

What the Imam was saying was there is no need for anyone to ask someone to pray on you behalf, because you can do it directly. Read the whole letter for the full context, which was all about praying only to Allah and relying on Him.

The intercession mentioned in the Quran is intercession on the Day of Judgement, and had nothing to do with Tawassul.

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Of course only Allah(swt) can helps us what where saying is where asking Allah(swt) Through the Prophets and Imams because we know we have a better chance of Allah(swt) helping us.

What gives you this idea? You need to provide proof for this  claim.

The whole point of what I quoted from Imam Ali (a) was that we do not need to ask Allah through Prophets and Imams. If it was better to do so, then he would probably have mentioned that somewhere.

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All of a sudden your an expert on what the Imam is referring to give me proof thats what hes referring to.

Considering that is the only intercession mentioned in the Qur'an, it would make sense for that to be the case. I see no evidence that it is any other type of intercession.

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Wheres the proof of its imprecation the burden of proof is on you.

I'm the only one here presenting any conclusive proof.

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Your are misleading the truth why dont you tell us who the verses was revealed about. what about the verses that Allah(swt) makes an exception why dont you mention those verses.

Why don't you present those verses where Allah makes an exception? I've never seen them. As for what they were revealed about, that doesn't matter as long as the verses are general in nature, which they are. Otherwise, why not say those verses were revealed about Arab pagan idols, and not Indian ones, and therefore there is no proof that there is a problem with worshipping Indian idols? The Quran deals with all kinds of objects of worship, and gives very clear and general statements about them.

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So Believers never wrong themselves they are Infallible? And if hypocrites can ask Prophets believers cannot come on lets be serious. GIVE ME ONE BELIEVER ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH THAT DOES NOT WRONG THE PROPHET atleast once in their life. and when I say wronged I mean by dishonoring his teachings one way or another or other ways.

Dishonering his teachings is not wronging him in the same direct way as the hypocrites did or Yaqoob's sons did.

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In all honesty Im not sure about Imam(a) controlling every atom in the universe so I cant tell you Im one of those shias. .

Alhamdulillah for that at least.

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Not true he makes perfect sense all he saying is basically is that Allah(swt) can delegate power to whomever he wants to . I dont know why you want to limit Allah(swt) power. your looking at the cup half empty not half full

Perhaps Allah can do it, but where is the evidence that He actually did? Allah can give me to power to raise the dead if He wants to, but there is no reason to believe he actually has, is there?

Also, this idea of Allah delegating power to the Imams is very dangerous.

And it is narrated from Zurarah that he said, I said to Imam al Sadiq : "Indeed a man from children of Abdullah ibn Saba professes by tafwidh." Said [Imam] (a): "And what is tafwidh?" I said: "He says: Indeed Allah (swt) created Muhammad and Ali , then delegated the command to them, for creation, and to give rizq (sustenance), and to give life, and to give death." So [Imam (a)] said: "Enemy of Allah (swt) lied, when you go back to him then recite upon him these ayaat (verses) in Surah al Ra'd (Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation): [Or do they assign to God partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say: "God is the Creator of all things: He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible."] So I turned (went back) to (that) man, then informed him by what Imam al Sadiq had said, so it (his reaction) was as if he had swallowed a stone or had become mute/dumb."


Told us Muhammad b. ali Majiloweh who said: Told us ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Yasser the servant who said: I said to Imam al Redha (a): "What do you say about al tafwidh (the belief that Allah has delegated the affairs of creation to His chosen people)?" So [Imam (a)] said: "Indeed Allah (swt) delegated to His (swt) prophet command of His (swt) religion." Then [Imam (a)] said: "So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you." (Al Qur'an 59:7, Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation), as for the creation and the sustenance, then no." Then [Imam ] said: "Indeed Allah (swt) says (in al Qur'an 13:16): "Allah is the Creator of all things", and He (swt) says (in al Qur'an 30:40, Abdullah Yusuf ali translation): "It is God Who has created you: further, He has provided for your sustenance; then He will cause you to die; and again He will give you life. Are there any of your (false) "Partners" who can do any single one of these things? Glory to Him! and high is He above the partners they attribute (to him)!"

By the way, look how the Imams (a) used verses from the Quran about themselves, and the other Imams. So this shows you that those verses are not restricted to the context of idols, as some people would like to suggest. As the second hadith states, all that was delegated was authority in religious matters. There is nothing about delegating any 'powers'.

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You need to provide hadith because its obvious to us

I'm sorry, but that is a ridiculous statement. It can only be obvious to you because you it is what you want to see.

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Your a victim to that too

Everyone is to some extent I suppose, but some suffer from it much more than others. As for me, I don't think I am reading anything into what the Quran says. I take it's obvious meaning, and the non-obvious meanings given to it by the Prophet and the Imams Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. That doesn't really seem to be what you are doing.

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They where still ASKING the prophet thats what the whole discussion is about why didn't they go straight to Allah(SWT) or why didn't the Prophet tell them too. Your begging the question brother.

They were asking him becaue they wronged him. Let's say I slander you, which is a terrible sin, then is it enough that I repent with Allah? No. I need to ask for your forgiveness as well. And perhaps it would be even better if you asked Allah's forgiveness on my behalf, since that would be a proof of that fact that you have truly forgiven me.

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​Brother you are contradicting yourself first you say Your not sure then you say it doesn't mean that he spoke directly to her you haven't established that fact you yourself said their are MANY possibilities what dont you list them. Lets not forget shes not a Prophet nor an Imam and you said Allah(SWT) doesn't contact us directly but we know for a FACT that he contacted Prophet Moses(a) mother so what are the possibilities.

What exactly are you trying to prove here? That Allah (swt) speaks directly to human beings?

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little side note I think your just taking the safe side by staying away by anything what you might think is shirk or resembles shirk which in a way I respect that.

Well, considering the punishment for Shirk, I think anybody that takes any other approach is being extremely reckless.

[ShiaPoet]

Alf, on 23 February 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

wa alaikum as salaam
That ayah does not say these people can respond to you. You have taken that conclusion from where? & as brother Haydar has pointed out, even the nabi himself (sawas) has our salaams conveyed to him via angels - not directly.

Salam

Yes, thats correct, the ayah didn't mention the responding. But the reason I put the ayah was to clarify that it doesn't matter whether the person is physically dead or alive if Allah wills that he may proceed with intercession then yes he can.

Change the 'Imams' to 'Imam', because I meant 'Imam of Time' or Imam Al-Asr.
By 'respond' I mean that Dhikr of the Imams will have its effect.

[AR2011]

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Nothing about calling upon him or asking him to pray to Allah on your behalf.

Have you never asked a friend whose embarking on hajj to pray for u at the Kaaba?
Have you never asked a friend who you perceive to be a very pious muslim to pray that u pass ur exam/ a relative gets cured/ to get the job u applied for...?

[-NJ]

Alf, on 23 January 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

I know that 100s of you are going to say 'you're not asking the Imams directly, only by permission of Allah swt etc etc', but the point is, if you feel you have to ask so and so Imam in order for your haajat, you are directly equating him to Allah, whether you verbalise it or not.

If you feel that you have to ask Imam Hussein to ask Allah to cure you and prefer to do that instead of asking Allah himself, you are equating him with Allah, astaghfirullah.

I personally dont see why asking through the Imam necessarily means equating the Imam with God.

Maybe it just means we acknowledge that the Imams are closer to God than ourselves so their duas will be responded to quicker.

Just as an example, a lot of people tend to ask their mothers to make dua for them. This does not mean that they think their mothers are divine, just means they acknowledge that the position of a mother before Allah is high, so her prayer for her child has a higher chance of being accepted.

Theres a difference between asking to and asking through.

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I understand that Allah does allow intercession from those he has chosen, but I don't think it us on us to call on them and ask for things. Unfortunately some ignorant Shia from among us go much further than tawassul and seem to think Ahlul Beyt have the same powers as Allah swt. People like to insult the Alawis who treat him as God, but unkowingly do the same themselves.

By the way, please don't use the examples of the sahaba going to qabur Rasullallah (sawa) after he died and seeking baraka or whatever, because that doesn't make it right.

One final note on this - can someone bring me any RELIABLE, 100% trustworthy hadith of the Nabi (sawa) advising us to call on his intercession or anybody after him?

If Allah has allowed intercession though some specific people, then why not go through them

And I know you said you dont want to hear examples of Sahaba going to the Prophets grave, but what about his own family, like his daughter, grand sons etc. We hear of many accounts of them going to his grave and talking to him, why would they bother if he could not have heard them on account of being dead.

Personally for myself, the few lines in Dua Nudbah which borrow from the Quran summarize the logic behind seaking nearness to Allah through the Ahlul Bayt:

[Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.

[Shakir 34:47] Say: Whatever reward I have asked of you, that is only for yourselves; my reward is only with Allah, and He is a witness of all things.

[Shakir 25:57] Say: I do not ask you aught in return except that he who will, may take the way to his Lord.

They (the Prophets household) have therefore been the way to You, and the course to Your pleasure... (Dua Nudbah)

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2) Images/music etc

Why is this allowed? Are we like christians now who put up pictures of Jesus and Mary (aleyhum as salaam). This is wrong. Same with the music, drums, etc etc used in Muharram.

As far as I know, to make images claiming they resemble any of the Prophets or Imams is forbidden, and music is haram too.

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3) Qualities of the ammah (aleyhum as salaam)

Infallibility, knowledge of the ghayb..this really bothers me. Allah swt did say he would purify them, but someone show me how this makes them sinless. There are many examples of members of Ahlul Beyt getting angry, etc etc. I am not saying this means they're bad people etc, just that it makes them human. Also, knowledge of the ghayb? Again, sounds to me as if people are trying to put them alongside Allah again.
..

In Surah Kahf, we clearly see the possibility of Allah giving knowledge of the unseen to His creatures if He so Wills...Khizr knew of things which even Nabi Musa did not.

So then why is it so hard to believe that Allah can give the Imams such knowledge if He so chooses.

Even if the Imams had all the knowledge of the unseen (and I am not saying that they did), there would still be one fundamental difference which would ensure that they are no where near to the divinity of Allah, and that is the fact that they would have been given the knowledge by Allah, whereas there would never have been a time at which Allah did not possess this knowledge for Him to have had acquired it from elsewhere.

Nabi Sulayman had an enormous amount of power given to him, ability to control the jinns and the wind, understand the language of animals and birds etc. However that does not put him on the same level as God because he would not have had any such power had not God blessed him with it.

[Haydar Husayn]

AR2011, on 24 February 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

Have you never asked a friend whose embarking on hajj to pray for u at the Kaaba?
Have you never asked a friend who you perceive to be a very pious muslim to pray that u pass ur exam/ a relative gets cured/ to get the job u applied for...?

No, I pray for myself, and I've never felt disappointed with the results. Not that there is anything wrong with asking someone to pray for you of course. The only problem is you have no proven way of asking the Prophet or the Imams to pray for you, since they can't even hear you unless you are near their graves. And even then, it's not certain they can hear any more than your salam. http://www.shiachat....re-all-hearing/

[Martyrdom]

Haydar Husayn, on 24 February 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

What exactly are you trying to prove here? That Allah (swt) speaks directly to human beings?
Can you list me all the possibilities on how Allah(swt) contacted Prophet Moses Mother?
Salam

[AR2011]

Haydar Husayn, on 24 February 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

No, I pray for myself, and I've never felt disappointed with the results. Not that there is anything wrong with asking someone to pray for you of course. The only problem is you have no proven way of asking the Prophet or the Imams to pray for you, since they can't even hear you unless you are near their graves. And even then, it's not certain they can hear any more than your salam. http://www.shiachat....re-all-hearing/

So u dont have a problem with intercession per se but more with the practicalities of the situations ur request is heard? i havent read the entire thread u posted (but i had a quick read of most of it). it sounds like to me that u made some strong points. but its not my place to judge because i have not studied in a hawza or had the relevant experience to make such calls. u may well have done and u can make that decision for urself. as for me, my understanding is that the majority of ulama do not restrict intercession to just grave sites (again, pls correct me if i am wrong) and whilst im certainly not one to follow blindly, when it comes to complicated issues like this, i have learnt my lessons (from past discussions) that if i want to understand something or if i have a doubt, forums like shiachat are often counter productive. if u r genuine in ur quest to find the truth, then u should take the time out to either sit with a knowledgeable person (who has many years of hawza study behind him/her) and discuss it. and if its not possible to sit directly then contact over the phone/email.

[Zenshiite]

<p>As salaam alaikum,</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>What of asking Imam al-Asr(as) for intercession? Is that not the same as a Sahabi having asked Rasulullah(sal) or the sons of Yaqub having asked Yaqub(as) to ask forgiveness or to pray for their well being? I do believe there is at least one hadith that testifies that Imam al-Mahdi(as) is aware of our affairs, and of course we know that he is present as the Sun is present even when covered by the clouds.</p>

[Haydar Husayn]

Zenshiite, on 25 February 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

<p>As salaam alaikum,</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>What of asking Imam al-Asr(as) for intercession? Is that not the same as a Sahabi having asked Rasulullah(sal) or the sons of Yaqub having asked Yaqub(as) to ask forgiveness or to pray for their well being? I do believe there is at least one hadith that testifies that Imam al-Mahdi(as) is aware of our affairs, and of course we know that he is present as the Sun is present even when covered by the clouds.</p>

Did people on the other side of Arabia call upon the Prophet from afar asking him to pray for them?

[Haydar Husayn]

AR2011, on 25 February 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

So u dont have a problem with intercession per se but more with the practicalities of the situations ur request is heard? i havent read the entire thread u posted (but i had a quick read of most of it). it sounds like to me that u made some strong points. but its not my place to judge because i have not studied in a hawza or had the relevant experience to make such calls. u may well have done and u can make that decision for urself. as for me, my understanding is that the majority of ulama do not restrict intercession to just grave sites (again, pls correct me if i am wrong) and whilst im certainly not one to follow blindly, when it comes to complicated issues like this, i have learnt my lessons (from past discussions) that if i want to understand something or if i have a doubt, forums like shiachat are often counter productive. if u r genuine in ur quest to find the truth, then u should take the time out to either sit with a knowledgeable person (who has many years of hawza study behind him/her) and discuss it. and if its not possible to sit directly then contact over the phone/email.

Since no scholar is ever going to tell you that supplicating directly to Allah (swt) is wrong, don't you think it might be better to take the safer course of action and do that, rather than trust in the scholars, and perhaps have to pay the consequences for it in the hereafter?

[AR2011]

thats a sensible conclusion. my understading is theres nothing that says u must partake in intercession and whilst i dont agree that Allah swt will willingly punish the majority of shias or scholars whose intentions were pure, if it helps u to be more comfortable in ur worship then so be it.

however, u will always have doubts about others' actions. for example, how would u view ur parents/ siblings/ wife/ children etc if they were to disagree with u? would u deem them as having an inclination towards shirk?

also, the benefit of going to a scholar is that they may point out a flaw in ur reasoning or a weakness in the ahadeeth etc that may well change ur mind. i personally wouldnt feel comfortable in ruling something out without exhausting all channels of trying to understand it. im not making any assumptions about the level of research u have personally done.

[Alejandro Sosa]

Somebody who practices tawassul, tell me - is there any point me supplicating directly to Allah swt anymore seeing as the A'immah get the job done better?

[La fata illa Ali]

so alf, ur issue is not tawassul, as as u have stated previously...



Ur issue is tawassul with DEAD ppl...

okay so here is a hypothetical question i posed to HH:

if the Prophet were alive AND standing infront of you (thereby eliminating the mortality and distance issue), would u say it would be inappropriate (shirk, kufr etc...) to ask him (tawassul) to ask Allah (aj) to forgive ur sins?


plz think before you answer this one.

[Al-Mufeed]

A brother pointed out to me that there was some discussion about Tawasul that needed to be cleared up. Is tawassul mentioned in the narrations or not?

I generally do not care to get in to these discussions any more - however for the sake of clarification I will involve my self:

The answer is a simple YES - tawasul is mentioned, and it is mentioned in a reliable narration (explicitly) - and this can be found in Kamal al Ziyarat-

ـ حدَّثني أبي ؛ ومحمّد بن الحسن ، عن الحسين بن الحسن بن أبان ، عن الحسين بن سعيد ، عن فضّالَة بن أيّوب ؛ وصفوان ؛ وابن أبي عُمَير جميعاً ، عن معاوية بن عمّار ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام «قال : إذا دخلت المدينة فاغتسل قبل أن تدخلها أو حين تريد أن تدخلها ثمّ تأتي قبر النَّبيّ صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم فتسلّم على رسول الله ثمّ تقوم عند الاُسطوانة المقدّمة عن جانب القبر الأيمن عند رأس القبر وأنت مستقبل القبلة ومَنْكِبُك الأيسرُ إلى جانب القبر ومَنْكِبُك الأيمن ممّا يلي المِنبر ، فإنّه موضع رأس النّبيِّ صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم وتقول : «أشْهَدُ أنْ لا إلـهَ إلاَّ اللهُ وَحْدَهُ لا شَريكَ لَهُ، وَأشْهَدُ أنَّ مُحَمَّداً عَبْدُهُ وَرَسُولُهُ، وَأشْهَدُ أنَّكَ رَسُولُ اللهِ، وَأنَّكَ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللهِ، وَأشْهَدُ أنَّكَ قَدْ بَلَّغْتَ رِسالاتِ رَبِّكَ، وَنَصَحْتَ لإُمَّتِكَ، وَجاهَدْتَ في سَبيلِ اللهِ، وَعَبَدْتَ اللهَ حَتّى أتاكَ الْيَقينُ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ، وَأدَّيْتَ الَّذي عَلَيْكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ، وَأنَّكَ قَدْ رَؤُفْتَ⁽¹⁾ بِالْمُؤْمِنينَ، وَغَلُظْتَ عَلَى الْكافِرينَ، فَبَلَّغَ اللهُ بِكَ أفْضَلَ شَرَفِ مَحَلِّ الْمُكَرَّمينَ، الْحَمْدُ للهِ الَّذي إسْتَنْقَذَنا بِكَ مِنَ الشِّرْكِ وَالضَّلالَةِ، اللّـهُمَّ اجْعَلْ صَلَواتِكَ، وَصَلَواتِ مَلائِكَتِكَ الْمُقَرَّبينَ، وعِبادِك الصّالحين وَأنْبِيائِكَ الْمُرْسَلينَ، وَأهْلِ السَّماواتِ وَالاَْرَضينَ؛ وَمَنْ سَبَّحَ لِرَبِّ الْعالَمينَ مِنَ الاَْوَّلينَ وَالاَْخِرينَ عَلى مُحَمَّدٍ عَبْدِكَ وَرَسُوِلِكَ وَنَبِيِّكَ وَأمينِكَ وَنَجِيِّكَ وَحَبيبِكَ وَصَفِيِّكَ وَخاصَّتِكَ وَ صَفْوَتِكَ وَخِيَرَتِكَ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ، اللّـهُمَّ وأعْطِهِ الدَّرَجَةَ و الْوَسيلَةَ مِنَ الْجَّنَةِ، وَابْعَثْهُ مَقاماً مَحْمُوداً يَغْبِطُهُ بِهِ الاَْوَّلُونَ وَالاَْخِرُونَ، اللّـهُمَّ إنَّكَ قُلْتَ: (وَلَوْ أنَّهُمْ إذْ ظَلَمُوا أنْفُسَهُمْ جاؤُكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللهَ تَوّاباً رَحيماً  مُسْتَغْفِرًا تائِباً مِنْ ذُنُوبي، وَإنّي أتَوَجَّهُ إليكَ بنَبيِّك نَبي الرَّحمةِ محمّدٍ صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم ، يا محمّدُ إنّي أتَوَجَّه إلَى اللهِ رَبّي وَرَبِّكَ [بِكَ] لِيَغْفِرَ لي ذُنُوبي» ⁽²⁾) ، وَإنّي أتَيْتُ نَبيَّكَ




http://www.rafed.net...mil/k02.html#11

^ for those who can not read arabic, this is the ziyarat to recite at the grave of the prophet - the relevant portion is at the end:



، يا محمّدُ إنّي أتَوَجَّه إلَى اللهِ رَبّي وَرَبِّكَ [بِكَ] لِيَغْفِرَ لي ذُنُوبي» ⁽²⁾) ،


Ya Muhammad - I have turned to my lord and your lord through you - so that he forgives my sins.

^ so its established via this narration that a person speaks to a prophet who is deceased, and seeks his intercession with Allah.

Also note that the word used in the narration above : أتَوَجَّهis the exact word used in dua tawasul:

اللّهُمَّ إنِّي أسْأَلُكَ وَأتَوَجَّهُ إِلَيْكَ بِنَبِيِّكَ نَبِيِّ الرَّحْمَةِ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى الله عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ، يا أبا القاسِم يارَسُولَ الله ياإمامَ الرَّحْمَةِ ياسَيِّدَنا وَمَوْلانا إنَّا تَوَجَّهْنا وَاسْتَشْفَعْنا وَتَوَسَّلْنا بِكَ إِلىاللهِ، وَقَدَّمْناكَ بَيْنَ يَدَيْ حاجاتِنا، ياوَجِيهاً عِنْدَ الله إشْفَعْ لَنا عِنْدَ اللهِ.


Some may argue that this only applies to being next to the Prophet and not from afar,  this - however does not make sense since its known though numerous narrations that the Prophet and Ahlulbayt are not even in their graves (note that does not mean that their graves are not holy sites), so its not an issue of "proximity" - and this has been noted by great scholars (such as shaikh mufeed ) as proof of the amazing attributes of the a'immah

[Haydar Husayn]

Al-Mufeed, on 27 February 2012 - 03:10 AM, said:

Some may argue that this only applies to being next to the Prophet and not from afar,  this - however does not make sense since its known though numerous narrations that the Prophet and Ahlulbayt are not even in their graves (note that does not mean that their graves are not holy sites), so its not an issue of "proximity" - and this has been noted by great scholars (such as shaikh mufeed ) as proof of the amazing attributes of the a'immah

What does the fact that they are not in their graves have to do with where they can hear us from? We have narrations that explictly say they only hear our salams from near their graves, whereas they are simply reported to them from afar. So clearly proximity is very much an issue.

This was discussed in the thread http://www.shiachat....re-all-hearing/


Also, saying "Ya Muhammad - I have turned to my lord and your lord through you - so that he forgives my sins" is a far cry from asking the Prophet for you needs, or even asking him to pray to Allah for your needs.

[baradar_jackson]

Alf, on 23 February 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

also thanks to baradar jackson for his pm on this issue

I don't remember sending you a PM. You must be thinking of someone else, haji.

[Al-Mufeed]

Haydar Husayn, on 27 February 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

What does the fact that they are not in their graves have to do with where they can hear us from? We have narrations that explicitly say they only hear our salam from near their graves, whereas they are simply reported to them from afar. So clearly proximity is very much an issue.

This was discussed in the thread http://www.shiachat....re-all-hearing/


Also, saying "Ya Muhammad - I have turned to my lord and your lord through you - so that he forgives my sins" is a far cry from asking the Prophet file:///C:DOCUME~1ADMINI~1LOCALS~1Tempmsohtmlclip11clip_image001.gif for you needs, or even asking him to pray to Allah for your needs.

In regards to the proximity issue. Your answer already makes it clear - that is- regardless of where you are - when you address the Ahlulbayt it reaches them. When they say "hear" it near their grave, its most probably just a way for people to some how comprehend the issue, because how could they hear the person who is near their grave, when the narrations say they are not their to begin with. Clearly Allah through some method allows them (ahlulbayt) to be informed of it while some one is near the grave, and he also allows them (ahlulbayt) to be informed of it while they are not near there. How they are informed of it - is through some sort of intermediary, at the end of the day nothing is Independent from Allah. Even when we physically hear some thing it is through various intermediaries - the traveling of sound waves for example.

But the main point is that they will "hear" it or be informed of it or how ever you wish to put it. So that means I am capable of addressing the Prophet from my home, just as I am capable of addressing him next to his grave.

Moving on to tawwasul - first understand what tawassul means:

The root for the word tawwasul is Wa Sa La - و س ل

what is the definition of that root - look here http://www.studyqura...e8/00000307.pdf - the lane arabic english lexicon will help you understand its meaning in depth. Look at the top right corner.  I am going to copy paste what it says here as well, but do to it being in pdf format the arabic portions will not show on here.


5-. ,1il 4 jol J.y r][He sougAt ta get at,
or obtain, the water by means of tle bucket].
(M in art. j.)-I j1t . j3 He sought
to bring himself near to him, or to approach to
him, to gain acces to him, or to advance himself
in his favour, by such a thing: (Myb, &e. so
too tJj; (1, g;) and ?j, aor. j'.
(Myb.)

al A means of access to a thing ; (lAth;)
a means of becoming near to a thing: (lAth,
Mob:) these are the primary significations:
(IAth a means of becoming near to, or intimate
frith, or of ingratiati:uj onself n'ith,
another: (8 honou,able rank or station r'ith
a king: d.gree: affinity: ([ a tie, or eonnexion:
(TA:) it may be rendered a meas nof
access, nearness, intimacy, ingratiating oi,esel/
attachment, or connexiotn: and also, of attain.
ment, or accomplishment.


This same root is used in the Quran two times in a manner that is relevant to this discussion:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَابْتَغُوا إِلَيْهِ الْوَسِيلَةَ وَجَاهِدُوا فِي سَبِيلِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ

O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that ye may prosper.

Surah Ma'edah : 35

أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ يَبْتَغُونَ إِلَىٰ رَبِّهِمُ الْوَسِيلَةَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ وَيَرْجُونَ رَحْمَتَهُ وَيَخَافُونَ عَذَابَهُ ۚ إِنَّ عَذَابَ رَبِّكَ كَانَ مَحْذُورًا

Those whom they call upon do desire (for themselves) means of access to their Lord, - even those who are nearest: they hope for His Mercy and fear His Wrath: for the Wrath of thy Lord is something to take heed of.

Surah Isr'a/Bani Israel : 57


Tawassul is seeking an intermediary to Allah سبحانه وتعالى, to use as a means of asking or getting closer to Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

So the question is can I use the Ahlulbayt for that purpose, according to the narrations, yes it is acceptable. The first ways of doing that is to Address Allah and ask by/through Ahlulbayt- this is established in reliable narrations, for example:

وعنه ، عن أبيه ، عن الحسين بن سعيد ، عن فضالة ، عن أبان ، ومعاوية بن وهب قالا : قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام : إذا قمت الى الصلاة فقل
اللهم إني أقدم اليك محمداً صلى الله عليه وآله بين يدي حاجتي وأتوجه به اليك ، فاجعلني به وجيها عندك في الدنيا والآخرة ومن المقربين. إجعل صلاتي به مقبولة ، وذنبي به مغفوراً ، ودعائي به
مستجاباً. إنك أنت الغفور الرحيم


Aba Abdillah said when you stand for salat say: Oh Allah I present Muhammad in "between the hands" of my need/wish (hajat) - and I seek nearness to you through him, so through him make me in this dunya and in the akhira one of the close ones (muqariboon). Make my prayers accepted by/through/because of  him, my sins by/through/because of him forgiven, my supplication by/through/because of him answered, for you are the forgiving the merciful.

^ the above narration is reliable to be acted upon, graded as Hasan by Alamah Majlisi- but it can be saheeh as well depending on how you look at the chain, either way it is a reliable narration (and its not singular as it is one of of several like it)

So asking Allah through them, is established and authenticated, regardless of what you’re asking for. In the above example Allah was beseeched first.

However in the narration that I presented earlier (which is a reliable narration), The Prophet is addressed him self, it is not saying Ya Allah (and then continuing).

It is saying YA MUHAMMAD – and then its addressing the issue, the seeking of Repentance/forgiveness from Allah, basically it is saying Ya Muhammad I am seeking Allah’s forgiveness through you. Forgiveness is a need.

This concept would not be any less valid if one were to say Ya Muhammad I am seeking my rizq from Allah through you.

The Issues brought up by people/critics is that we can not seek intercession through them in this world (claiming it is only for the hereafter) – and we can only seek their help on mattes while they are alive/present with us, and can not seek their help after they are dead.

Both the narrations above dispel that, and prove that using them as a means of waseela for your needs weather they are alive or dead. They also prove that you can seek them as waseela  weather addressing Allah BY them  (that is mentioning Allah first and then asking through/by them) or addressing the member of Ahlulbayt first and using them as a means.

Also (as you have already admitted your self) it is established via narrations that when we address them they will receive it (however you wish to define that) regardless of where you are when you address them.

So there should not be any problem in some one saying Oh Muhammad or Oh Ali or Oh whoever – I am in need of xyz – so I am seeking that from Allah through you. It’s the same thing as what is in the above narration, Where you are saying Oh Muhammad I am seeking repentance from Allah through you.  This Is what Tawassul is.

And according to the scholars if someone says Ya Muhammad or Ya Ali help me, and they mean by it what is mentioned above, ie that they are asking Allah through them,  this is acceptable, and more over that is logical based on the narrations, and one wouldn’t need a scholar to tell them that any way.

However IF someone (and this is mentioned by the scholars as well) believes that their need or dua is being fulfilled by Ahlulbayt – and it is not going to Allah through them, then this is shirk.

[rotten_coconut]

Salam bro al-Mufeed,

Quite an interesting explanation that you've provided. As for asking to Allah (swt) by acknowledging the right of ma'sumin (e.g. bi haqqi Muhammad wa ali Muhammad), it's undisputed authentic & recommended practice. What in the discussion is asking to non-God (e.g. the ma'sumin ) in our du`a (e.g. Ya `Ali , please help me by praying for me to Allah (swt))

In regard to that, bringing my points from a different thread, there's something that hasn't been answered:

The supporters of the practice of asking to non-God in our du`a quoted Quranic verses such as Al-Ma'idah/5: 35 + rationales such as the ma'sumin are more beloved by Allah (swt) than us so that by asking for their help, our du`a will be more acceptable to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

The issue with this rationale is it's implying that du`a by asking the wasilah is more effective than asking to Allah (swt) directly.
This doesn't make sense considering    except for the du`a that you quoted, all of the Ahlul Bayt 's du`a were asking to Allah (swt) directly instead of asking Rasulullah (saww), whose position was higher than them, to pray for them. If the rationale is correct, then we would see all the ma'sumin 's du`a will be full of asking Rasulullah (saww) to pray for them since we believe the perfectness of the ma'sumin 's act & they will always opt for the best option in their acts. More devastatingly, if the rationale is correct, then the du`a of the ma'sumin were not perfect & need to be improved.

In fact, lack of this practice from them, can easily be understood of their reluctance or avoidance of this.

Then again, apart from the validity of the practice itself, let's take a practical look:
Why take unnecessary risk when we have something else so clearly established by the ma'sumin ?
Why take "high risk, questionable gain" when there's a "no risk, high gain" approach?
If the ma'sumin prayed 99.9% by asking to Allah (swt) directly, isn't 99.9% of our du`a should be like this too?

[Al-Mufeed]

Wa Alyakum as salam rotten_coconut


Thanks for the reply brother, I don't see any isssue with the practice as I have explained it above, and again to answer your query- please note what I have stated above.

According to the authentic narrations it is acceptable to both Ask Allah by the right of the Prophet, as well as asking Allah through the prophet by saying Ya muhammad - and then asking him to intercede for you in front of Allah for your sins or what ever.- as I have presented in the reliable narration above, the individual making dua is asked by the imam to adress the prophet YA MUHAMMAD- in seeking forgiveness through Allah for sins.

So again there seems to be no problem with this practice, and as noted the wording in the narration is the same wording used in the well known "dua tawassul"

Quote

This doesn't make sense considering except for the du`a that you quoted, all of the Ahlul Bayt 's du`a were asking to Allah (swt) directly instead of asking Rasulullah (saww), whose position was higher than them, to pray for them. If the rationale is correct, then we would see all the ma'sumin 's du`a will be full of asking Rasulullah (saww) to pray for them since we believe the perfectness of the ma'sumin 's act & they will always opt for the best option in their acts. More devastatingly, if the rationale is correct, then the du`a of the ma'sumin were not perfect & need to be improved.

The ahlulbayt are perfect, they are masoom, and are not in need of intermediaries like our selves. The quran instructs us to seek out intermediaries, as do the narrations. The need for an intermediary is due to our abundance of sins and lack of remembrance of Allah, an issue that does not plague the pure house hold.

In regaurds to the dua that we have, the majority of them seem to (at some point) ask by the right ahlulbayt/prophet at some point in the dua.

Be-haq  e muhammadan wa ali muhammad (or some thing similar).