55 replies to this topic

[Alejandro Sosa]

Long story short, I have recently started practicing my deen again after a long time in ignorance..My dad's Shia, mum Sunni.

I wasn't sure whether I should follow Sunni or Shia Islam, I just wanted to be Muslim. I used that as an excuse not bother with it at all.

Alhamdullilah I found Allah swt again..

Anyway - some of the stuff in Shia aqeedah that really seems outside the bracket of Islam to me..I'm sure you've all heard this before.

1) Intercession

I know that 100s of you are going to say 'you're not asking the Imams directly, only by permission of Allah swt etc etc', but the point is, if you feel you have to ask so and so Imam in order for your haajat, you are directly equating him to Allah, whether you verbalise it or not.

If you feel that you have to ask Imam Hussein to ask Allah to cure you and prefer to do that instead of asking Allah himself, you are equating him with Allah, astaghfirullah.

I understand that Allah does allow intercession from those he has chosen, but I don't think it us on us to call on them and ask for things. Unfortunately some ignorant Shia from among us go much further than tawassul and seem to think Ahlul Beyt have the same powers as Allah swt. People like to insult the Alawis who treat him as God, but unkowingly do the same themselves.

By the way, please don't use the examples of the sahaba going to qabur Rasullallah (sawa) after he died and seeking baraka or whatever, because that doesn't make it right.

One final note on this - can someone bring me any RELIABLE, 100% trustworthy hadith of the Nabi (sawa) advising us to call on his intercession or anybody after him?



2) Images/music etc

Why is this allowed? Are we like christians now who put up pictures of Jesus and Mary (aleyhum as salaam). This is wrong. Same with the music, drums, etc etc used in Muharram.

3) Qualities of the ammah (aleyhum as salaam)

Infallibility, knowledge of the ghayb..this really bothers me. Allah swt did say he would purify them, but someone show me how this makes them sinless. There are many examples of members of Ahlul Beyt getting angry, etc etc. I am not saying this means they're bad people etc, just that it makes them human. Also, knowledge of the ghayb? Again, sounds to me as if people are trying to put them alongside Allah again.

There are a few more things that bother me, but these are the main ones. In terms of good things Shia do, salat is correct, wudhu is correct, and the memory of the righteous Hussain as will always live on, unlike the Sunnis who don't seem to care..

I will leave you one ayah which I want someone to respond to.

Al Jinn 72:18

Quote

The places of worship belong to God; so call not, along with God, upon anyone.

[do3a2]

salam alaykom

ur doubts are being shared by many shia my friend, when i first read duaa "tawasuul", the first thing that came to my mind is that "why am i pleading to aimma (3) to save me from Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì?....... isnt Alla the all merciful?" by reading this duaa i felt distanced from Allah and closer to the aimma, so i stoped reading it

in the end it is a matter of relativity, what does this duaa make u feel?..... when ever i debated this topic, people engage me saying that it is ok to read tawasuul as long as you aim to seek Alla (swt) from it, frankly speaking, i never feel that way so, whenever i go to makam sayeda zainab for example, i pray to Alla (swt) bihakk zainab (3), i never say ya sayidaty ishfaee li 3nda Allah.......

just ask yourself, if Alla (swt) in the other world asked me about this duaa, would i have a logical answere i believe in to have/ not have read this duaa

as for tha pictures, we always see a picture of a handsome man and whenever we ask who's picture is this, some say its for imam ali(3) some say for abal fadel some say for imam hussein(3), anyway i guess the artist ran out of ideas to create the perfect picture so the same picture is been atributed to all the aimma (i find this humorous)....... no one said such pictures are ok, besides no one knows what the aimma really looked like........ but its good to know that there are people like yourself, who believe that such act are irresponsible

as for the music, some of the artists go a bit far of the sirat, lets say that you turn on the radio and you listen to a certain music with lyrics that will make you think that the singer is flirting or decribing a girl he loves....... in the end it turns out that the song was about fatima(3)........ there are examples of such songs in our shiaa world, sadly people move with the flow

finally, u are questioning the qualities of the aimma in terms of infallibility and ilm alghayb, well, no one said that the aimma knew alghayb even the rasuul mohammad (3alayh salat w salam) didnt know the ghayb, except the things that Alla (swt) showed him
"لو كنت اعلم الغيب لاستكثرت من الخير"
ilem alghayb is for Alla swt alone and no one else, yet the aimma had a certain power we canot understand...... they had the power to read their envirnment and make correct assumptions and this isnt something Alla swt gave them but rather a normal cause effect situation, because these people reached a high level of purity (cause) their thought became clear (effect). To make my point, imam hasan(3) chose to agree on a "hidna" with moawiya yet imam hussein (3) chose to resist and fight, both of them were imams so we canot say which one was right and which was wrong, both chose the right path because they read their environment perfectly and decided that their takleef was with a "hidna" in imam hasan(3)'s case and resistance in imam hussein(3)'s case

it is not troubling thou to believe that the aimma are infallible, in the end Alla set them as examples for us, and in order to be perfect examples they have to be perfect, and why do you think that getting angry isnt perfect? anger is perfection if used in the right time, so are many of the powers that Alla (swt) created in us, islam isnt the religion were one has to always be gentle and if one smacks you on ur left cheek turn ur right...... islam is the religion of equilibrium, we have to use our powers and needs in equilibrium.
the aimma reached equilibrium so they become infallibles

[Awaiting_for_My_Master]

do3a2, on 24 January 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

salam alaykom

ur doubts are being shared by many shia my friend, when i first read duaa "tawasuul", the first thing that came to my mind is that "why am i pleading to aimma (3) to save me from Allah سبحانه وتعالى?....... isnt Alla the all merciful?" by reading this duaa i felt distanced from Allah and closer to the aimma, so i stoped reading it

in the end it is a matter of relativity, what does this duaa make u feel?..... when ever i debated this topic, people engage me saying that it is ok to read tawasuul as long as you aim to seek Alla (swt) from it, frankly speaking, i never feel that way so, whenever i go to makam sayeda zainab for example, i pray to Alla (swt) bihakk zainab (3), i never say ya sayidaty ishfaee li 3nda Allah.......

just ask yourself, if Alla (swt) in the other world asked me about this duaa, would i have a logical answere i believe in to have/ not have read this duaa

as for tha pictures, we always see a picture of a handsome man and whenever we ask who's picture is this, some say its for imam ali(3) some say for abal fadel some say for imam hussein(3), anyway i guess the artist ran out of ideas to create the perfect picture so the same picture is been atributed to all the aimma (i find this humorous)....... no one said such pictures are ok, besides no one knows what the aimma really looked like........ but its good to know that there are people like yourself, who believe that such act are irresponsible

as for the music, some of the artists go a bit far of the sirat, lets say that you turn on the radio and you listen to a certain music with lyrics that will make you think that the singer is flirting or decribing a girl he loves....... in the end it turns out that the song was about fatima(3)........ there are examples of such songs in our shiaa world, sadly people move with the flow

finally, u are questioning the qualities of the aimma in terms of infallibility and ilm alghayb, well, no one said that the aimma knew alghayb even the rasuul mohammad (3alayh salat w salam) didnt know the ghayb, except the things that Alla (swt) showed him
"لو كنت اعلم الغيب لاستكثرت من الخير"
ilem alghayb is for Alla swt alone and no one else, yet the aimma had a certain power we canot understand...... they had the power to read their envirnment and make correct assumptions and this isnt something Alla swt gave them but rather a normal cause effect situation, because these people reached a high level of purity (cause) their thought became clear (effect). To make my point, imam hasan(3) chose to agree on a "hidna" with moawiya yet imam hussein (3) chose to resist and fight, both of them were imams so we canot say which one was right and which was wrong, both chose the right path because they read their environment perfectly and decided that their takleef was with a "hidna" in imam hasan(3)'s case and resistance in imam hussein(3)'s case

it is not troubling thou to believe that the aimma are infallible, in the end Alla set them as examples for us, and in order to be perfect examples they have to be perfect, and why do you think that getting angry isnt perfect? anger is perfection if used in the right time, so are many of the powers that Alla (swt) created in us, islam isnt the religion were one has to always be gentle and if one smacks you on ur left cheek turn ur right...... islam is the religion of equilibrium, we have to use our powers and needs in equilibrium.
the aimma reached equilibrium so they become infallibles

Alf, on 23 January 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Long story short, I have recently started practicing my deen again after a long time in ignorance..My dad's Shia, mum Sunni.

I wasn't sure whether I should follow Sunni or Shia Islam, I just wanted to be Muslim. I used that as an excuse not bother with it at all.

Alhamdullilah I found Allah swt again..

Anyway - some of the stuff in Shia aqeedah that really seems outside the bracket of Islam to me..I'm sure you've all heard this before.

1) Intercession

I know that 100s of you are going to say 'you're not asking the Imams directly, only by permission of Allah swt etc etc', but the point is, if you feel you have to ask so and so Imam in order for your haajat, you are directly equating him to Allah, whether you verbalise it or not.

If you feel that you have to ask Imam Hussein to ask Allah to cure you and prefer to do that instead of asking Allah himself, you are equating him with Allah, astaghfirullah.

I understand that Allah does allow intercession from those he has chosen, but I don't think it us on us to call on them and ask for things. Unfortunately some ignorant Shia from among us go much further than tawassul and seem to think Ahlul Beyt have the same powers as Allah swt. People like to insult the Alawis who treat him as God, but unkowingly do the same themselves.

By the way, please don't use the examples of the sahaba going to qabur Rasullallah (sawa) after he died and seeking baraka or whatever, because that doesn't make it right.

One final note on this - can someone bring me any RELIABLE, 100% trustworthy hadith of the Nabi (sawa) advising us to call on his intercession or anybody after him?



2) Images/music etc

Why is this allowed? Are we like christians now who put up pictures of Jesus and Mary (aleyhum as salaam). This is wrong. Same with the music, drums, etc etc used in Muharram.

3) Qualities of the ammah (aleyhum as salaam)

Infallibility, knowledge of the ghayb..this really bothers me. Allah swt did say he would purify them, but someone show me how this makes them sinless. There are many examples of members of Ahlul Beyt getting angry, etc etc. I am not saying this means they're bad people etc, just that it makes them human. Also, knowledge of the ghayb? Again, sounds to me as if people are trying to put them alongside Allah again.

There are a few more things that bother me, but these are the main ones. In terms of good things Shia do, salat is correct, wudhu is correct, and the memory of the righteous Hussain as will always live on, unlike the Sunnis who don't seem to care..

I will leave you one ayah which I want someone to respond to.

Al Jinn 72:18

Salam,
For now I will answer the first question. I will start by saying the reason we ask Ahl Al Bayt (A.S) to ask Allah, for the intercession of people like us is because they have such a high position with Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. This means its more likely for the dua to be accepted and granted. Here is proof from the Quran:

Allah says:
-[None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from (Allah) Most Gracious] (19:87)
-[Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth?] (2:255)
-[no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (God)] (20:109)
-[And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, BUT he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)] (43:86)
-[And how many an angel is there in the heavens whose intercession does not avail at all except after Allah has given permission to whom He pleases and chooses] (53:26)


Is Intercession a form of Shirk?



Articles for further reading:
http://www.answering...sm/en/chap4.php
http://al-islam.org/shiism/8.htm
http://al-islam.org/...rl=tawassul.htm


Hope this clears things up!

Salam

[Alejandro Sosa]

do3a2, on 24 January 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

salam alaykom

ur doubts are being shared by many shia my friend, when i first read duaa "tawasuul", the first thing that came to my mind is that "why am i pleading to aimma (3) to save me from Allah سبحانه وتعالى?....... isnt Alla the all merciful?" by reading this duaa i felt distanced from Allah and closer to the aimma, so i stoped reading it

in the end it is a matter of relativity, what does this duaa make u feel?..... when ever i debated this topic, people engage me saying that it is ok to read tawasuul as long as you aim to seek Alla (swt) from it, frankly speaking, i never feel that way so, whenever i go to makam sayeda zainab for example, i pray to Alla (swt) bihakk zainab (3), i never say ya sayidaty ishfaee li 3nda Allah.......

just ask yourself, if Alla (swt) in the other world asked me about this duaa, would i have a logical answere i believe in to have/ not have read this duaa

as for tha pictures, we always see a picture of a handsome man and whenever we ask who's picture is this, some say its for imam ali(3) some say for abal fadel some say for imam hussein(3), anyway i guess the artist ran out of ideas to create the perfect picture so the same picture is been atributed to all the aimma (i find this humorous)....... no one said such pictures are ok, besides no one knows what the aimma really looked like........ but its good to know that there are people like yourself, who believe that such act are irresponsible

as for the music, some of the artists go a bit far of the sirat, lets say that you turn on the radio and you listen to a certain music with lyrics that will make you think that the singer is flirting or decribing a girl he loves....... in the end it turns out that the song was about fatima(3)........ there are examples of such songs in our shiaa world, sadly people move with the flow

finally, u are questioning the qualities of the aimma in terms of infallibility and ilm alghayb, well, no one said that the aimma knew alghayb even the rasuul mohammad (3alayh salat w salam) didnt know the ghayb, except the things that Alla (swt) showed him
"لو كنت اعلم الغيب لاستكثرت من الخير"
ilem alghayb is for Alla swt alone and no one else, yet the aimma had a certain power we canot understand...... they had the power to read their envirnment and make correct assumptions and this isnt something Alla swt gave them but rather a normal cause effect situation, because these people reached a high level of purity (cause) their thought became clear (effect). To make my point, imam hasan(3) chose to agree on a "hidna" with moawiya yet imam hussein (3) chose to resist and fight, both of them were imams so we canot say which one was right and which was wrong, both chose the right path because they read their environment perfectly and decided that their takleef was with a "hidna" in imam hasan(3)'s case and resistance in imam hussein(3)'s case

it is not troubling thou to believe that the aimma are infallible, in the end Alla set them as examples for us, and in order to be perfect examples they have to be perfect, and why do you think that getting angry isnt perfect? anger is perfection if used in the right time, so are many of the powers that Alla (swt) created in us, islam isnt the religion were one has to always be gentle and if one smacks you on ur left cheek turn ur right...... islam is the religion of equilibrium, we have to use our powers and needs in equilibrium.
the aimma reached equilibrium so they become infallibles

Wa alaikum as salaam bro

Thanks for the reply, I agree with much of what you said

In all honesty, I don't agree with the amma having knowledge of the ghayb..imo this is something baseless which people have ascribed to them..if the Nabi, kheyr al khalq did not have knowledge of the ghayb, why would the ammah? That knowledge is for Allah swt alone, and it really annoys me when I see 'scholars' like Shirazi say that if an Imam says 'kun, fa ya kun'.

Right now I would consider myself a Shia of Ali , but a Muslim first and foremost..

Salaam 'awaiting for my master'

The lecture of Nakshawani has been removed. I think i've seen it before, I'm pretty sure he uses the example of going to the doctor when you are ill to justify asking the amma for haajat. This is NOT the same. Doctors can help cure physical ailments (obviously by way of Allah), but who can remove spiritual ailements but Allah?

Also, in regards to the ayat u posted, I agree that it shows intercession is permitted, but for us to ask human beings is not right in my opinion. I will admit that I don't know the right way to go about seeking intercession. I'd rather avoid the threat of shirk altogether by praying to Allah swt. Like I said before, if u feel ur prayers will only be answered by asking Hussain to ask Allah for u, I feel ur putting him equal to Allah..

[Haydar Husayn]

Alf, on 23 January 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

1) Intercession

I know that 100s of you are going to say 'you're not asking the Imams directly, only by permission of Allah swt etc etc', but the point is, if you feel you have to ask so and so Imam in order for your haajat, you are directly equating him to Allah, whether you verbalise it or not.

If you feel that you have to ask Imam Hussein to ask Allah to cure you and prefer to do that instead of asking Allah himself, you are equating him with Allah, astaghfirullah.

I understand that Allah does allow intercession from those he has chosen, but I don't think it us on us to call on them and ask for things. Unfortunately some ignorant Shia from among us go much further than tawassul and seem to think Ahlul Beyt have the same powers as Allah swt. People like to insult the Alawis who treat him as God, but unkowingly do the same themselves.

By the way, please don't use the examples of the sahaba going to qabur Rasullallah (sawa) after he died and seeking baraka or whatever, because that doesn't make it right.

One final note on this - can someone bring me any RELIABLE, 100% trustworthy hadith of the Nabi (sawa) advising us to call on his intercession or anybody after him?

This isn't part of Shia aqeedah, and there is no evidence for it, just some kind of vague rationalist argument people try to use.

Quote

2) Images/music etc

Why is this allowed? Are we like christians now who put up pictures of Jesus and Mary (aleyhum as salaam). This is wrong. Same with the music, drums, etc etc used in Muharram.

This is a very debated subject, with a lot of difference of opinion. Many Shias are not comfortable with these pictures either. However, proving that they are actually haram apparently isn't that easy to do. A lot of the stuff that surrounds Muharram also doesn't have to bother you too much, since it is not really part of Shia Islam as such.

Quote

3) Qualities of the ammah (aleyhum as salaam)

Infallibility, knowledge of the ghayb..this really bothers me. Allah swt did say he would purify them, but someone show me how this makes them sinless. There are many examples of members of Ahlul Beyt getting angry, etc etc. I am not saying this means they're bad people etc, just that it makes them human. Also, knowledge of the ghayb? Again, sounds to me as if people are trying to put them alongside Allah again.

There are a few more things that bother me, but these are the main ones. In terms of good things Shia do, salat is correct, wudhu is correct, and the memory of the righteous Hussain as will always live on, unlike the Sunnis who don't seem to care..

The Prophet also got angry, as did other prophets. I don't see what that has to do with being sinless. As for knowledge of the ghayb, the Imams debied having that. They simply had the knowledge that was passed down to them from the Prophet , and perhaps some other knowledge given to them by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

[do3a2]

salam,
waiting_for_my_master:

i already said it is a matter of relativity, this doesn't mean that if i dont read duaa tawasuul then i am no longer a shi3ee and the opposit is also true, the important thing is our intentions.......
but i always wonder, all of our duaa were first said by either mohammad (3alayh salat wa salam) or aimma (3), like duaa komayl was atributed to ameer lmo2mineen(3), duaa tawba and duaa jawshan alkabeer for zain al abideen (3)............

which imam said duaa altawasul?

[Nima]

Is there anyone here who can give me shia sahih hadiths that promotes tawasul practice?

I would love to see a hadith which says that we can ask our imam anywhere.

Our imams spoke so much about the power of Allah, so its very strange that they suddenly say: After my dead, you should ask me about everything...





Yes, I know ultimately  that it is God who decides. But why can we not pray directly to God?

As long as no one gives me the hadiths that explicitly promotes this practice, then  I prefer instead to pray directly to my creator.

Edited by Nima, 24 January 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[Awaiting_for_My_Master]

Nima, on 24 January 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Is there anyone here who can give me shia sahih hadiths that promotes tawasul practice?

I would love to see a hadith which says that we can ask our imam anywhere.

Our imams spoke so much about the power of Allah, so its very strange that they suddenly say: After my dead, you should ask me about everything...





Yes, I know ultimately  that it is God who decides. But why can we not pray directly to God?

As long as no one gives me the hadiths that explicitly promotes this practice, then  I prefer instead to pray directly to my creator.

do3a2, on 24 January 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

salam,
waiting_for_my_master:

i already said it is a matter of relativity, this doesn't mean that if i dont read duaa tawasuul then i am no longer a shi3ee and the opposit is also true, the important thing is our intentions.......
but i always wonder, all of our duaa were first said by either mohammad (3alayh salat wa salam) or aimma (3), like duaa komayl was atributed to ameer lmo2mineen(3), duaa tawba and duaa jawshan alkabeer for zain al abideen (3)............

which imam said duaa altawasul?

Alf, on 24 January 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

Wa alaikum as salaam bro

Thanks for the reply, I agree with much of what you said

In all honesty, I don't agree with the amma having knowledge of the ghayb..imo this is something baseless which people have ascribed to them..if the Nabi, kheyr al khalq did not have knowledge of the ghayb, why would the ammah? That knowledge is for Allah swt alone, and it really annoys me when I see 'scholars' like Shirazi say that if an Imam says 'kun, fa ya kun'.

Right now I would consider myself a Shia of Ali , but a Muslim first and foremost..

Salaam 'awaiting for my master'

The lecture of Nakshawani has been removed. I think i've seen it before, I'm pretty sure he uses the example of going to the doctor when you are ill to justify asking the amma for haajat. This is NOT the same. Doctors can help cure physical ailments (obviously by way of Allah), but who can remove spiritual ailements but Allah?

Also, in regards to the ayat u posted, I agree that it shows intercession is permitted, but for us to ask human beings is not right in my opinion. I will admit that I don't know the right way to go about seeking intercession. I'd rather avoid the threat of shirk altogether by praying to Allah swt. Like I said before, if u feel ur prayers will only be answered by asking Hussain to ask Allah for u, I feel ur putting him equal to Allah..

Salam,
I will try to answer all three of you. Imam Hassan bin Ali al Askari said dua Tawassul.
Duas are answered by Allah (SWT) if you directly to him. However, you have a higher chance for the request to come true when you ask an Imam to pray on your behalf etc.
THE REASON WE ASK THE IMAMS TO PRAY ON OUR BEHALF IS BECAUSE THERE IS A HIGHER CHANCE OF BEING ANSWERED. REMEMBER THE POSITION EXAMPLE I GAVE? PLEASE REFER TO IT IN MY LAST POST.

Shaykh Tusi says, in his book Misbah, that imam Hassan bin Ali Al Askari wrote this dua'a for Abu Muhammad who requested him to teach him the pTroper way of reciting salawat. Allama Majlisi has mentioned this dua'a on the authority of Ibn babawayh who confidently says that there is no difficulty or problem that this dua'a does not solve.

*The merciful Allah is beseeched in the name of and for the sake of the Holy prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt.
It is known as "quick-fulfillment-of-all-legitimate-desires" dua'a.


If I have offended anyone please forgive me, I am only a poor slave of Allah (SWT) Duas

Salam

[Alejandro Sosa]

How many of you agree with this 'alim' Ridha Shirazi?



[EDITED]

Edited by Replicant, 26 January 2012 - 06:29 PM.
Your question is fair but calling a scholar a mushrik and liar is not on.

[macisaac]

It sounds more like you have doubts about populist "Shiism".  Forget about it.  Just go back to the sources, see what the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt actually taught, and follow that.  Ignore anything else.

[Nima]

macisaac, on 26 January 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

It sounds more like you have doubts about populist "Shiism".  Forget about it.  Just go back to the sources, see what the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt actually taught, and follow that.  Ignore anything else.

I agree. But I can also understand that people get very confused when you see that there are so many shia muslim  who believe that our imams can hear us wherever we are and the controls the entire universe ..

[BillyJo]

Answering Question 1

According to the point made in the question, then one should not really seek doctors and medical professionals for treatment of his illnesses since Allah the Most Exalted is the one who cures illnesses and restores people to full health! “And when I am sick, then He restores me to health” (Quran 26:80). Respectively, if one is drowning in water, he should not call out for help since seeking aid from and calling upon other than Allah is Shirk!

If you, arguably, say that Allah the Most Exalted is the actual healer; He is the one who cures all illnesses and ailments but doctors and medical professionals are no more than intermediaries for cures. Additionally, calling out for help is no more than a means of rescue. Otherwise, the one drowning in water will be only rescued with the will of Allah and no one else.

Then, we say that the same is the case for the pure household of the Prophet (peace be upon them). We also say that we turn towards the pure household (peace be upon them) because they are the means through which our Duas can be answered. Otherwise, Allah the Most Exalted is the one who answers prayers and fulfils all needs.

In fact we are ordered by Allah the Most Exalted to seek the pure household (peace be upon them) as means of approach and ask them to intercede with Allah on our behalf, for Allah the Most Exalted has said: “O ye who believe, be careful of (your duty to) Allah and reach unto Him for a means and strive in His path that ye might thrive” (Quran 05:35).

The Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) also said: “We are the means to Allah” (al-Bihar, vol. 25, p. 23). Additionally, in the Quran we find: “And We sent no Messenger save that he be obeyed by Allah’s permission, And if when they wronged themselves they had come to thee and sought Allah’s forgiveness and the Messenger had sought Allah’s forgiveness for them they would have found Allah relenting, merciful” (Quran 04:64).

On the other hand, there are even proofs found in the Bakri books that support the permissibility of Tawassul. One of which is what Ibn Kathir – who is one of the Bakri scholars - narrates regarding the above verse (Quran 04:64):

“Sheikh Abu Mansour al-Sabbagh reported in his book (al-Shamil) the well-known story of Al-`Utbi who said: ‘as I was sitting by the grave of the Prophet, a Bedouin Arab came and said: "Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah! I have heard Allah saying: And if when they wronged themselves they had come to thee and sought Allah’s forgiveness and the Messenger had sought Allah’s forgiveness for them they would have found Allah relenting, merciful" (Quran 04:64).

“So I have come to you asking forgiveness for my sin, seeking your intercession with my Lord." Then he began to recite poetry:

O best of those, whose bones are buried in the deep earth,
And from whose fragrance the depth,
And the height have become sweet,
May I be the ransom for a grave which thou inhabit,
And in which are found purity bounty and munificence,

“Then he left, and I slept and saw the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) in my sleep. He said to me: “O `Utbi, run after the Bedouin and give him glad tidings that Allah has forgiven him.” (Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, vol.1, p.532).

Notice here that although the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) was apparently dead, he did intercede on behalf of the Bedouin and asked Allah the Most Exalted to forgive all of his sins.

Moreover, Ibn Hanbal – who is the Imam of the Hanbali sect – narrates: “a blind person came to the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) and said: 'Pray to Allah that He bestows me with sight'. The Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) replied: ‘If you desire, I’ll not pray, as being blind may be better for your afterlife, or I’ll pray’

“The man then chose to be relieved of blindness and the Messenger told him: 'Perform ablution (i.e. Wudu), pray tworak'at and then supplicate to Allah in this way:  'O God! Surely my appeal is to You and I turn towards You through the Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy: O Muhammad, surely I turn towards God through you, that He uncover my sight. O God, make him my intercessor.’ The man did what the Messenger told him and his sight was restored” (Musnad Ahmed, vol. 4, p. 138).

Notice here that the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) ordered the blind man to turn towards Allah the Most Exalted through him, for he ordered him to say: “O Muhammad”. Additionally, although the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) was not with him at the time he recited the Dua, Allah the Most Exalted did cure him and restored his eyesight.

Furthermore, there is no difference in asking the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) to intercede on our behalf during his lifetime or after his martyrdom, for he is alive and is provided sustenance. “And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord” (Quran 03:169), as proved in the Al-`Utbi’s narration.

Needless to say, making Tawassul through the pure household (peace be upon them) is also permissible, for Imam Ali (peace be upon him) is nothing but an extension of the Prophet personality as stated in the holy Quran:

“So whoever disputes thee about him after the knowledge that has come to you say Come, we shall call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, our selves and your selves thereupon we shall supplicate and place the curse of Allah upon the liars” (Quran 03:61).

The same is the case for Imam Hussain (peace be upon him), as the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) said: “Hussain from me and I am from Hussein” There are in fact numerous narrations that state the same about each and every member of the pure household (peace be upon them).




Question 2

We don't allow it you do though






As for number 3

[Shakir 3:44] This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.

Another verse

[Yusufali 72:26] "He (alone) knows the Unseen, nor does He make any one acquainted with His Mysteries,-
[Yusufali 72:27] "Except a messenger whom He has chosen: and then He makes a band of watchers march before him and behind him,

Even Ayat al-Korsi

[Shakir 2:255] Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.

[Martyrdom]

Salam
If Allah (swt) used the prophet to get to us its only logical that we use the prophet to get back to him. And if we say its forbidden that's like saying we know more then AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. At the same time we don't have to you can talk to Allah(swt) directly we just have options and that's one of the blessings and mercy of AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. Now the point about unseen  only Allah(swt) knows the unseen but that doesn't mean he can't share that knowledge with us the evidence is overwhelming that he did look at prophet yusef he's a perfect example of Allah sharing his knowledge. Also what ever qualities the Imams have is all from Allah(swt) why our we limiting his power of sharing. The part about pictures we derive our way of life and what's right and wrong from the Quran and the traditions of our Prophet and ahle byte if their is no evidence from them that pictures is haram then how our we coming to that conclusion that it is. Of course the picture can not be degrading.
Salam

[Vigilare]

macisaac, on 26 January 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

It sounds more like you have doubts about populist "Shiism".  Forget about it.  Just go back to the sources, see what the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt actually taught, and follow that.  Ignore anything else.

That's not always easy for some, especially those who don't know Arabic. It would be far better if there was material available which compared 'original' or authentic Shia aqeedah to that of current times.  You can clearly see the overwhelming support that eg. istighatha has, amongst other things.  Going to lectures during Muharram (or any other time for that matter) doesn't help either because speakers generally promote current beliefs/views regardless of whether they're right or wrong.

[Inception]

Salam aleykom

It's important that we do ask about these issues, things that we dont understand or have difficulty understanding. I was also questioning alot of things, but it's actually these questions, adressing them, helped me to understand. And now I'm convinced, not saying I know alot now, I have my challenges but have reached some convinction adn peace.

About alghayb, exactly as brother martyrdom said, that Allah (swt) can share this information with the chosen ones. In fact, even elKhidhr , why did he kill an innocent child? why did he ruin the baot or built that wall? Moses who was a prophet himself, was shocked by the knowledge that elKhidhr possessed.

About other qualities of Ahlulbayt, It's not impossible to have these powers (natural and supernatural) because, again, with other prophets, we see the same. I actually heard that in Sulaiman's story , the "one" who brought the queen's "arsh" for him, it wasn't a jinni or a demon (if its a demon we believe its possible but if its Ahlulbayt, it isn't?) I heard that who brought the arsh was a human being, actually "the wasi" of Sulaiman's just like Ali for Mohammad (asws). Can anyone please correct me and give me the proper link for this explanation if you got it?

Songs? I never heard such things, maybe a "mild" version of them, but songs are not really allowed in islam in general. So, I would like to know more about this from you brothers and sisters.

Also, when we doubt, and this is something for me as well, not only for you. Its better to g back for the sources, like a Aalim or mariji3 and read or tafseer and read what have been said about that.

Thanx again
cheers

[Haydar Husayn]

Martyrdom, on 04 February 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Salam
If Allah (swt) used the prophet to get to us its only logical that we use the prophet to get back to him.

No, it's not logical. Allah obviously doesn't communicate with us directly, but we can communicate with Allah directly. So we have no need to go through anyone else.

As Imam Ali says in Nahjul Balagha:

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.

http://www.shiachat....nahjul-balagha/

Quote

And if we say its forbidden that's like saying we know more then Allahسبحانه وتعالى.

It's the ones who defend these practices who think they know better than Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, because He never told us to do this, and made it as clear as possible in His book that you should only call on Him.

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]

And there are many verses that explictly tell you not to call on other than Allah (swt): http://www.shiachat....h-in-the-quran/

I'm not sure exactly how people would like it to be said. Presumably it would have to be something like "Do not call on other than Allah, no matter what your intention, even if it is to call on the Prophet and the Imams, and even if you don't think they are independent of Allah". Because evidently a general command to not call on other than Allah just isn't good enough for some people. Well, let them play games with the commands of Allah, trying to find loopholes. Let's see where it gets them in the hereafter.

Quote

At the same time we don't have to you can talk to Allah(swt) directly we just have options and that's one of the blessings and mercy of Allahسبحانه وتعالى.

In that case, why would you choose the option on talking to someone else instead of Allah?

Quote

Now the point about unseen  only Allah(swt) knows the unseen but that doesn't mean he can't share that knowledge with us the evidence is overwhelming that he did look at prophet yusef he's a perfect example of Allah sharing his knowledge. Also what ever qualities the Imams have is all from Allah(swt) why our we limiting his power of sharing.

Ok, so in that case why not just say Allah gave all His powers and knowledge to the Prophet and Imams ? After all, we wouldn't want to limit what Allah can do.

Anyway, for those that pay attention to what the Qur'an actually says:

Say: I do not say to you, I have with me the treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel; I do not follow aught save that which is revealed to me. Say: Are the blind and the seeing one alike? Do you not then reflect? [6:50]

Say: I do not control any benefit or harm for my own soul except as Allah please; and had I known the unseen I would have had much of good and no evil would have touched me; I am nothing but a warner and the giver of good news to a people who believe. [7:188]

And from among those who are round about you of the dwellers of the desert there are hypocrites, and from among the people of Medina (also); they are stubborn in hypocrisy; you do not know them; We know them; We will chastise them twice then shall they be turned back to a grievous chastisement [9:101]

Surely Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the hour, and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs; and no one knows what he shall earn on the morrow; and no one knows in what land he shall die; surely Allah is Knowing, Aware. [31:34]

Say: I am not the first of the messengers, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner. [46:9]

Say: I do not know whether that with which you are threatened be nigh or whether my Lord will appoint for it a term: [72:25]

And your companion is not gone mad. And of a truth he saw himself on the clear horizon. Nor of the unseen is he a tenacious concealer [81:22-24]

[Martyrdom]

First of all salam  brother this is what muslim say before beginning a discussion . Now I will break down you post bit by bit and I will provide overwhelming proof to what I'm saying but before I need to verify what your actually saying so theirs no misunderstanding. So you don't believe in what exactly tawassul or shafaa or both . You believe asking anybody for help other then Allah(swt) is shirk? You belive that Allah(swt) only communicates directly with Prophets or what ? Clarify your beliefs for me and ill answer them so were not all over the place with the discussion.
Salam

[Haydar Husayn]

Martyrdom, on 21 February 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

First of all salam  brother this is what muslim say before beginning a discussion .

Yes, and this is an internet forum, where salams are optional.

Quote

Now I will break down you post bit by bit and I will provide overwhelming proof to what I'm saying but before I need to verify what your actually saying so theirs no misunderstanding.

I doubt you will be able to provide overwhelming evidence, since nobody has done so before, but it will be interesting to see you try.

Quote

So you don't believe in what exactly tawassul or shafaa or both.

Shafa'a, as in intercession on the day of judgement, is in the Qur'an, so obviously I believe in it. Tawassul and istighatha on the other hand, are neither well supported by the Quran or the ahadith, and in fact seem to contradict those sources.

Quote

You believe asking anybody for help other then Allah(swt) is shirk?

I believe calling upon other than Allah (as in making dua) is shirk, as Allah says in the Quran.

Quote

You belive that Allah(swt) only communicates directly with Prophets or what ?

Even with Prophets, Allah usually sent angels. I don't believe anyone is currently having conversations with Allah though. On the other hand, He obviously hears us when we call upon him, and there is no need to go through anyone else.

[Martyrdom]

Haydar Husayn, on 21 February 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

I doubt you will be able to provide overwhelming evidence, since nobody has done so before, but it will be interesting to see you try.
So your telling my you have read all the books to ever exist in Islamic history and heard all the scholars alive or dead and then you came to that conclusion lets be realistic.  


Shafa'a, as in intercession on the day of judgement, is in the Qur'an, so obviously I believe in it. Tawassul and istighatha on the other hand, are neither well supported by the Quran or the ahadith, and in fact seem to contradict those sources.


Good we agree on shafa"a now let’s discuses Tawassul.   Lets define it first so where on the same page.   Tawassul is anything which
becomes a means to gain nearness to Allah. In its general Islamic meaning, everything which takes us near Our Lord is mediation.
Therefore all good deeds such as faith in Allah and the Prophet (peace be upon them), prayers, fasting, Hajj, and other deeds serve as
mediators that draw us nearer to Allah.  There are many ways to get near to him and this is really what where discussing here one of the ways and that’s The Prophets and Imams(AS).  In the Holy Qur'an (5:35), it says: "O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful." The scholars in exegesis to the above verse of holy Qur'an say that the mediation from Prophets, Imams or the righteous servants of Allah is included in the meaning of mediation. Allama Tabatabai discusses the verse in Al-Mizan in the following words:
"Al-Qummi has written about the words of Allah: 'O you who believe! Fear Allah and seek means of nearness to Him...' that (the Imam) said, 'Come near Allah through the Imam'... That is, through obedience to the Imam. Thus it is based on the flow of the Qur'an, and applies the verse to its best import... The Leader of the Faithful said about the Divine Word 'and seek means of nearness to Him': 'I am the means of nearness to Him'."
In a lengthy narration known as the Hadith of Wasila, the Prophet is reported to have said, "When you ask from Allah, ask for me the Wasila... It is my rank in the Garden..."
Allama Tabatabai further states: "[we] will find that Wasila is the position of the Prophet in the presence of his Lord, with which he gets nearer to Allah; and joins him there his pure progeny, then the good servants from among his Ummah. It has also been narrated in some traditions from them that verily the Messenger of Allah adheres to his Lord, and we adhere to him and you adhere to us."
Imam as-Sajjad (peace be upon him) on mediation:
My God, I have no mediation with Thee but the tender acts of Thy clemency, nor any way to come to Thee but the gentle favors of Thy mercy and the intercession of Thy Prophet, the prophet of mercy, who rescued the community from confusion. Make these two my tie to attaining Thy forgiveness and let them take me to triumph through Thy good pleasure! My hope has dismounted in the sacred precinct of Thy generosity, my craving has alighted in the courtyard of Thy munificence. So actualize my expectation from Thee, seal my works with good, and place me among Thy selected friends, those whom Thou hast set down in the midst of Thy Garden, and settled in the abode of Thy honor, whose eyes Thou hast gladdened by gazing upon Thee on the day of meeting Thee, and whom Thou hast made heirs to the sure stations in Thy neighborhood!
O He none more generous than whom is reached by the reachers and none more merciful than whom is found by the aimers! O Best of those with whom the lonely are alone, O Tenderest of those with whom outcasts seek haven! Toward the expanse of Thy pardon have I extended my hand, upon the skirt of Thy generosity have I fastened my grasp! Show me no deprivation and afflict me not with disappointment and loss! O Hearer of supplications! O Most Merciful of the merciful!"
Allah says in the Holy Qur'an, "Oh you who believe: be aware of Allah and seek to Him theWaseela (intermediate to reach Him)" (5:35). The verse obviously commands the believers to seek intermediates to reach Allah. Why? Because He made the perfect system, and He knows that we reach our perfection by utilizing the system appropriately. Among these "intermediates" are those Allah has chosen to guide us, such as the greatest of Allah's Creation, Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family).
"And if they had – after having done injustice to themselves – come to you (Muhammad) and asked Allah for forgiveness, and the Messenger then would ask Allah to forgive them, they would have found that Allah is Oft-Returning (to Mercy), Merciful” (4:64).
When an aware believer says "Oh Ali!" (s)he is not truly seeking Imam Ali (peace be upon him). Rather, the believer seeks Allah, and because Allah has commanded the believer to seek Him through the chosen intermediates, the believer does not hesitate to do so.
"So what? Are we saying that calling out 'Oh Allah!' is not sufficient?!" No…but one cannot deny that Allah has commanded us to seek Him in a specific way, i.e. via these intermediates.
If one calls out "Oh Ali!" thinking that Imam Ali (peace be upon him) can independently do anything for the person, it is definitely Shirk. Similarly, if one knowingly calls out "Oh Allah!" without seeking Him through the appropriate means –at heart – then such a call cannot be considered true obedience to the Wisest of Planners.
"But God would not punish them while YOU WERE PRESENT in their midst. Nor would He punish them if they SOUGHT FORGIVENESS" (8:33). In this verse the physical
presence of the holy prophet is equated with Isteghfar (seeking forgiveness) as far as protection from God's punishment is concerned. Thus It is clear that physical proximity
with the holy prophet make potential for us to receive God's grace. To give you another example we read in the holy Qur'an that Prophet. Yousuf tells his brothers "Take
this shirt of mine and throw it over my father's face: he will recover his sight. Then return to me with all your people" (12:93).  Think about this, Ya'ghub himself is a  
prophet and Yousuf's father, why doesn't his own shirt do the same thing? First because the act of recovery is not a function of the shirt, it is God's action, second God's
wants to educate us and tell us that He puts Rahmah (grace) in the physical belongings of his true servants and encourages us to have close and respectful relationships
with them for those relationships make us ready for more Taghva. To encourage this He bestows some special Rahmah in his true servants. Like the one in the physical
presence of the holy prophet and the one in Yousuf's shirt.
The Holy Quran Says
They said, 'Father! Plead {with Allah} for forgiveness of our sins! We have indeed been erring'. He said, 'I shall plead with my Lord to forgive you; indeed He is the All-forgiving, the All-merciful'.[32]
In these verses, the sons of Ya'qub ('a) resorted to the intermediation of their father. They had committed mistakes so many times; they had annoyed and disturbed two prophets of God (Ya'qub and Yusuf (Joseph) ('a)), and transgressed the command of God by annoying their parents and telling lies. Since those mistakes required the sons to seek forgiveness, they took their father as their intercessor; so this action has not been denied or rejected in the Qur'an.
Since God does not reproach the sons of Ya'qub for resorting to two persons of those who are near to Him {muqarrabun}, it can be concluded that there is nothing wrong in entreating the Prophet (s) especially since the eminence of his rank and the loftiness of his station are not hidden to anyone.
The other verse which may be cited is the following:
Had they, when they wronged themselves, come to you and pleaded Allah for forgiveness, and the Apostle had pleaded for forgiveness for them, they would have surely found Allah All-clement, All-merciful.[33]
It can be deduced from this verse that the intermediation of the Holy Prophet (s) can also be resorted to in asking God for forgiveness of sins.
Anyways sorry if the post is  too long but I want to ask you a question to see what you think. In the following verse:
(We revealed to Moses' mother, "Suckle him and then when you fear for him, cast him into the sea. Do not fear or grieve; We will return him to you and make him one of the messengers.") (Al-Qasas 28:7)  Allah(SWT) says that he revealed to Prophet Moses(AS) mother my question is His mother was not a Prophet nor an  Imam in what way do you think Allah(swt) revealed to her what to do?

Salam

[Haydar Husayn]

I'm not going to bother responding to an unsourced copy and paste. Here are the sources you should have cited:

http://islamicinsigh...s-to-Allah.html

http://islamicinsigh...hirk-shirk.html

http://www.al-islam....doctrines/6.htm

[Martyrdom]

Salam
Its irreverent who's saying it if you really care after the truth all you should care about what's being said  plus I could have sited them but the chances are you weren't going to check them out  but you haven't answered the question I posed at the end?

[Abo_Al7ur]

Brother Alf

I'm sure you read Quran inshallah...

Why don't you ask the same quistion about brothers of Yusuf(as) when they asked their father Yacob(as) to forgive their sins?

They said, "O our father, ask for us forgiveness of our sins; indeed, we have been sinners."
He said, "I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."
12:97 & 12:98

[ShiaPoet]

Bismillah
Salam

When we say "Shifa'aa" we only ask our Allah,
But to get more acceptance from Allah, we ask those "askers" who don't have a flaw!

Now I will use and example, when you have to go somewhere
you don't walk all the way - you use a vehicle, land or air

When you go somewhere, you first go into a car
you need the car - especially when the place is far!

When someone asks you "To where?"
You don't reply "The car, that's where."
You tell them the place the you want to go
The car protects you from rain and snow

Just like this,
We ask our Imam
He is our intecessor
Alayhissalam

I can also use an example of a boy
When the boy asks for a toy
he asks his mom to ask his dad
if he asks directly, then he might remain sad
Because what if his behavior upsets his dad?
Asking through mom would keep him glad

Imams are the carriers of our Duaa
This Duaa then goes to Allah
What would be better: your turn to choose
If a sinful man reports, you'd close the news
The same is with you and your Duaas, you see?
Should I ask through an Imam or ask through me?
Which messenger would you pick for your delivery?

This is intercession, if you'd ask me.
The Prophet (and Imams) are such a mercy
A mercy for the whole of Humanity.

Wassalam

[ShiaPoet]

Isn't there a difference between us and the Imam?
Asking through an Imam isn't against Islam
Imam and us - is there equality?
Imams are best from Humanity

"Who is there in His presence than can intercede?
Except with Allah's will and His concede" - Surah Baqarah Ayah 225

Throughout our Duaas, our sins pollute
even if they're small, big, or minute

Let me ask you a question too
Would you eat yummy food on a dirty plate???
Send your Duaa with a pure messenger
Believe in your Imams (for intercession) before its too late

I hope this poem will positively affect your fate
Believe in you Imams before its too late

[Alejandro Sosa]

Abo_Al7ur, on 22 February 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Brother Alf

I'm sure you read Quran inshallah...

Why don't you ask the same quistion about brothers of Yusuf(as) when they asked their father Yacob(as) to forgive their sins?

They said, "O our father, ask for us forgiveness of our sins; indeed, we have been sinners."
He said, "I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."
12:97 & 12:98

brother please stop trying to equate this to tawassul

this is nowhere near the same

they asked their father who was alive and present, not someone in the grave

totally different