41 replies to this topic

[Waiting for HIM]

Do you think a silent marjaiat is good thing for Iraq?

Iraqi Shias are in need of political training sort of which was done in 50s and 60s in Iran and need a Marja who is vocal, attending weekly Friday prayers, telling people on routine basis about their duties, about the rights and wrongs, teaching them of Islamic political foresight and so on...

Wallah, I do not mean any disrespect to Ay. Khoei or Ay. Shaheed Hakeem , but why did they not listen to Ay. Khomenei and Baqir us Sadr back in 1970s and why did they chose to listen to President Bush Sr. when he asked Iraqi opposition to rise against Saddam, only to be abandoned by Americans later and being slaughtered by Sadam's airborne helicopter brigades?

Why is howza in Najaf not preparing Iraqi Muslims for Imam Mahdi (atf)? Or are they? May be I do not know much about the ground realities, could someone shed some light?

I request to please be respectful about Muslim Scholars in your comments.

[-Enlightened]

They're in Taqiyya .

Edited by Enlightened_x, 21 January 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

Do all maraja there adopt this reclusive approach?

[Waiting for HIM]

Marjait in Iraq is active, but only indirectly, they never do it directly except for a couple of times that Ay. Seestani stepped in to resolve disputes between inter Shia issues.

[hameedeh]

Iraq was invaded in March 2003. Is there any town or region that doesn't have foreigners there? Even if soldiers have left an area, there are still foreigners there as consultants. Who knows what kind of surveillance items were installed by foreign contractors who came to work in the reconstruction?

This is an interactive Timeline. Click on the ruler above the words The Iraq War. The last item is dated October 21, 2011. Look at the dates following: 2013-2023.

http://www.cfr.org/i...CFW5ntgodBAPYiQ

[Marbles]

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ, on 21 January 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Do all maraja there adopt this reclusive approach?

If being reclusive means not as active politcally as Iranian government scholars, then yes, Iraqi maraaje are indeed reclusive.

Having said that I believe Sayed Sistani and other scholars have done a superb job at keeping Shia as safe as possible in times of murder and mayhem. It was Sistani's non-violent approach toward invading Americans which kept Shia relatively safe than they would otherwise have been had they resorted to Muqtadaite methods of armed opposition. After all, it was a America vs. the Baathist regime. Shia didn't need to take to the battlefield.

Despite this, of the four big guns fo the Najaf hawza, Sistani is still the most politically vocal.

Edited by Marbles, 22 January 2012 - 03:17 AM.

[thecontentedself]

with all due respect to the marji'iyeh of Najaf (it's healthy to disagree with their views and actions) ...  they are inexperienced and lack the socio-political awareness to guide the religiously fed-up so called shi'a of iraq.

so it's two issues, neither of which the iraqi scholars are unaware of: unwillingness of the majority to be led by a religious authority, and the unwillingness of the scholars to deal with the headache.

iraqis are lazy and self-centred, and don't want anything to do with the mullahs. they are truly fed up with the turban.

to marbles, and other iraq 'experts': how many times have you seen Seyyed Sistani (qs) come out and speak to the people? You know his son can barely speak arabic? If you say he's politically vocal, I would say Al Hakim is more politically active, even though I disagree with his views and actions.

where are the islamic societies for guidance and awareness building?? where is the funding from the khums money for job creation?? there is a gross-mismanagement of affairs happening, but that won't stop millions going to mourning processions, beat their chest, eat and make such a mess not seen since the indonesia tsunami.

discuss ...

[Abu Izrael]

thecontentedself:
so it's two issues, neither of which the iraqi scholars are unaware of: unwillingness of the majority to be led by a religious authority, and the unwillingness of the scholars to deal with the headache.

iraqis are lazy and self-centred, and don't want anything to do with the mullahs. they are truly fed up with the turban.

couldnt have said it better myself, many iraqi shia don't want to see a government of mullahs like in iran.
@OP: in the inner workings of iraq it's widely known that Sistani has backed one of the major "lists" in past elections, and many in the howza like to play indirect roles in politics

[thecontentedself]

HassoonBazoon, on 22 January 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

thecontentedself:
so it's two issues, neither of which the iraqi scholars are unaware of: unwillingness of the majority to be led by a religious authority, and the unwillingness of the scholars to deal with the headache.

iraqis are lazy and self-centred, and don't want anything to do with the mullahs. they are truly fed up with the turban.

couldnt have said it better myself, many iraqi shia don't want to see a government of mullahs like in iran.
@OP: in the inner workings of iraq it's widely known that Sistani has backed one of the major "lists" in past elections, and many in the howza like to play indirect roles in politics

those ''shia'' don't know what's in their best interest, and don't deserve a government like in Iran.

[John Al-Ameli]

With all my respect to the biggest Maraji' in Najaf. They never raised a finger against aggression in the Muslim world, from Iraq passing through Palestine. I wonder until when will they stay silent? Or was the memory of Imam Hussein just a memory, or is it a school for us to learn from him.

Edited by RoAcHy, 24 January 2012 - 06:32 AM.

[thecontentedself]

RoAcHy, on 24 January 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

With all my respect to the biggest Maraji' in Najaf. They never raised a finger against aggression in the Muslim world, from Iraq passing through Palestine. I wonder until when will they stay silent? Or was the memory of Imam Hussein just a memory, or is it a school for us to learn from him.

I think, Allahu a'lam, the top maraji' (not the second and third level pseudo-scholars), accept the fact that the majority of iraqis are not ready/capable for such a big responsibility. be it for religious or psychological, or physical reasons, the average iraqi's priority is electricity, clean water and a decent job (and to avoid getting blown up to pieces). any honourable cause you mention to them they'll just brush away in the usual iraqi way: what are you talking about? true, lying? can't you see what mess we're in?

bottom line, they need to clean themselves up first, and their streets, before they can come together with a clear and focused mind, strong faith, and a clear way forward, not to mention an honourable and pious leadership...

[John Al-Ameli]

thecontentedself, on 24 January 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

I think, Allahu a'lam, the top maraji' (not the second and third level pseudo-scholars), accept the fact that the majority of iraqis are not ready/capable for such a big responsibility. be it for religious or psychological, or physical reasons, the average iraqi's priority is electricity, clean water and a decent job (and to avoid getting blown up to pieces). any honourable cause you mention to them they'll just brush away in the usual iraqi way: what are you talking about? true, lying? can't you see what mess we're in?

bottom line, they need to clean themselves up first, and their streets, before they can come together with a clear and focused mind, strong faith, and a clear way forward, not to mention an honourable and pious leadership...

Other than Iraq. It is not just about giving lectures and speeches about it. It is about taking a official stand. But why don't seem to know anything.
A Marja' isn't just a Marja' for Iraq and Najaf, he is a Marja' for Muslims all over the world.

[Marbles]

thecontentedself, on 22 January 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

to marbles, and other iraq 'experts': how many times have you seen Seyyed Sistani (qs) come out and speak to the people? You know his son can barely speak arabic? If you say he's politically vocal, I would say Al Hakim is more politically active, even though I disagree with his views and actions.

where are the islamic societies for guidance and awareness building?? where is the funding from the khums money for job creation?? there is a gross-mismanagement of affairs happening, but that won't stop millions going to mourning processions, beat their chest, eat and make such a mess not seen since the indonesia tsunami.

discuss ...

I was talking about the four top maraaje in Iraq not al-Hakim. Anyway you can disagree with the current management of Shia resources and in all likelihood there will be many things which can be done in a better way but so far as Sistani's policy toward the war is concerned, there is no gainsaying that he did all he could to keep the Shia of Iraq safe.

As for those who think Sistani doesn't speak against the aggression of the powerful in Palestine and elsewhere, they need to keep track of Sistani's statements released from his Najaf office

Edited by Marbles, 24 January 2012 - 07:07 AM.

[Marbles]

RoAcHy, on 24 January 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

With all my respect to the biggest Maraji' in Najaf. They never raised a finger against aggression in the Muslim world, from Iraq passing through Palestine. I wonder until when will they stay silent? Or was the memory of Imam Hussein just a memory, or is it a school for us to learn from him.

Perhaps you can educate the maraaje in Najaf about politics? Perhaps they need tutorials from Misbah-Yazdi and Jannati about Islamic political theory? Because apparently, reading comments like yours, I come to think that the maraaje in Najaf have no idea about those Islamic disciplines. Isn't it?

Mushu, on 24 January 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

The problem lies with this 'top four' concept. There is no such concept in Shia Islam.

The problem is that the big maraji3 in Najaf are supporters of the 'Silent Hawza'.

I remind you that there is a marji3 who is active, Sheikh al-Yaqoobi, but unfortunately the government launched a smear campaign against him because he had a third of the parliament at one point.

Sure, there is no concept of 'top four' or something like that. Nor is there a concept of "silent hawza" if you will. It merely refers to the four most prominent maraaje currently alive in Najaf. Of course there are other maraaje besides those four who may or may not be active in politics.

We have to understand, in the end, it is personal choice about how much a marja wants to participate in politics. You can't expect every top marja to lead you politically. It is not their job. Simple. Their job is to guide you in matters pertaining to religion not run your government and official organisations.

[thecontentedself]

Marbles, on 24 January 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Perhaps you can educate the maraaje in Najaf about politics? Perhaps they need tutorials from Misbah-Yazdi and Jannati about Islamic political theory? Because apparently, reading comments like yours, I come to think that the maraaje in Najaf have no idea about those Islamic disciplines. Isn't it?



Sure, there is no concept of 'top four' or something like that. Nor is there a concept of "silent hawza" if you will. It merely refers to the four most prominent maraaje currently alive in Najaf. Of course there are other maraaje besides those four who may or may not be active in politics.

We have to understand, in the end, it is personal choice about how much a marja wants to participate in politics. You can't expect every top marja to lead you politically. It is not their job. Simple. Their job is to guide you in matters pertaining to religion not run your government and official organisations.

reference please.

last time I checked these verses are still valid:
“He who does not rule by what Allah has revealed, they are the disbelievers…He who does not rule by what Allah has revealed, they are the oppressors…He who does not rule by what Allah has revealed, they are the transgressors’ 5:44-45-47

also, last time I checked islamic jurisprudence laws include financial, legal and matters of jihad. in my dictionary, they are over and above matters of worship. therefore, we need institutions in place to support the enforcement and supervision of these laws. then, if the religious authority is not aware of the current socio-political environment, he can't be an approachable figure who's advice can be taken seriously. and since the issues and problems have become so numerous, a single person can't be expected to answer all questions, so again, the need to different institutions led by experts in the field.

these maraja' you refered to are maraja' of fiqh, not religion.

[John Al-Ameli]

Marbles, on 24 January 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Perhaps you can educate the maraaje in Najaf about politics? Perhaps they need tutorials from Misbah-Yazdi and Jannati about Islamic political theory? Because apparently, reading comments like yours, I come to think that the maraaje in Najaf have no idea about those Islamic disciplines. Isn't it?

I said politics.

Don't start talking left and right.

Yes, when there is no one having a official stand, it is wrong. Now I'm not saying ALL the Maraji' and Ulama in Najaf are that way, but I mean't many.

[Marbles]

thecontentedself, on 24 January 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

reference please.

last time I checked these verses are still valid:
“He who does not rule by what Allah has revealed, they are the disbelievers…He who does not rule by what Allah has revealed, they are the oppressors…He who does not rule by what Allah has revealed, they are the transgressors’ 5:44-45-47

also, last time I checked islamic jurisprudence laws include financial, legal and matters of jihad. in my dictionary, they are over and above matters of worship. therefore, we need institutions in place to support the enforcement and supervision of these laws. then, if the religious authority is not aware of the current socio-political environment, he can't be an approachable figure who's advice can be taken seriously. and since the issues and problems have become so numerous, a single person can't be expected to answer all questions, so again, the need to different institutions led by experts in the field.

these maraja' you refered to are maraja' of fiqh, not religion.

Erm. I am sorry that Sistani, Bashir Hussain Najafi, Ishaq Al-Fayad and Saeed al-Hakeem didn't know that they were only "maraaje of fiqh" and not of "religion".

[thecontentedself]

Marbles, on 24 January 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Erm. I am sorry that Sistani, Bashir Hussain Najafi, Ishaq Al-Fayad and Saeed al-Hakeem didn't know that they were only "maraaje of fiqh" and not of "religion".

no need to apologize on their behalf. this is not a criticism, this is fact of life and the Najafi school needs to deal with it.

[Marbles]

thecontentedself, on 24 January 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

no need to apologize on their behalf. this is not a criticism, this is fact of life and the Najafi school needs to deal with it.

Please do write a letter and forward four copies to those afore-mentioned maraaje. Perhaps they will learn something.

[thecontentedself]

Marbles, on 24 January 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Please do write a letter and forward four copies to those afore-mentioned maraaje. Perhaps they will learn something.

we're way passed that stage

[Waiting for HIM]

AY. Hashmi Shahroudi moving to Najaf may change things a lot. Sort of Muslim bin Aqeel going to Kufa to make people politically wise.

[icewizard]

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته - Peace be upon you as well as Allah's Mercy and Blessings...
و لصلاة و السلام على خير خلق الله و حبيب قلوبنا، الرسول محمد، و آله الطيبين الطاهرين - And may the Prayers and Peace be upon the Best of Allah's Creations, the beloved of our hearts, the Messenger Muhammad as well as his Generous and Pure Family...
و لعنة الله الدائمة على أعداءهم و ظالميهم و التابعين على ذلك من الأولين إلى الآخرين - And may the permanent curse of Allah be upon their enemies and their oppressors and those who follow the trend from the first ones to the last ones...

May Allah -swt- grant our scholars more knowledge and a long and healthy life...
Sayyid Mahmud al-Hashemi al-Shahrudi -ha- just relocated in Najaf to get back to scholarship and focus on religion, and not politics...

Am i dreaming or are mostly the people who criticize the najafi scholars for their stance and way of doing things "pro-WF"?

We can find "quiet" (if that's the word you use) scholars in Qom (Shaikh Wahid al-Khursani -ra-, Sayyid Muhammad Sadeq al-Ruhani -ha-, Sayyid Sadeq al-Shirazi -ra-) too are "quiet"...

Of course, i put the word between quotes because the scholars cannot be heard by those who don't want to hear them...

If you want to listen to Sayyid Ali al-Sistani's -ha- word, then tune or Karbala TV for Friday Prayer and listen to the Friday Prayer Khutbas (Speeches) in Karbala of his representatives like Shaikh Abdul-Mahdi al-Karbalaei -ha- (Secretary General of the Holy Imam al-Husayn -as- Shrine) or Sayyid Ahmad al-Safi -ha- (Secretary General of the Holy Abul-Fadhl al-Abbas -as- Shrine)... And there you will get their word...

و عليكم السلام و رحمة الله و بركاته - And upon you be Peace as well as Allah's Mercy and Blessings...

[Ali_Hussain]

icewizard, on 25 January 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته - Peace be upon you as well as Allah's Mercy and Blessings...

If you want to listen to Sayyid Ali al-Sistani's -ha- word, then tune or Karbala TV for Friday Prayer and listen to the Friday Prayer Khutbas (Speeches) in Karbala of his representatives like Shaikh Abdul-Mahdi al-Karbalaei -ha- (Secretary General of the Holy Imam al-Husayn -as- Shrine) or Sayyid Ahmad al-Safi -ha- (Secretary General of the Holy Abul-Fadhl al-Abbas -as- Shrine)... And there you will get their word...

و عليكم السلام و رحمة الله و بركاته - And upon you be Peace as well as Allah's Mercy and Blessings...

wa alakyum salaam wa rahmatullah,

Whilst I don't really have a problem with the non vocal approach of sayed sistani, clearly at points it can lead to breakdown in communications and problems of trust.

For example, a while ago, there was an issue with the khums paid by the sistani muqalids to an organisation, all the sistani people said the sayed did not give the permission, the people at the organistion said he did, as the people in the organistion are in the public eye, their word held more weight than the words of the various Sistani representatives. And Khums is not exactly a minor issue.

Other problems also exist, often people say the sistani reps in every country are saying different things, every statement from the office is said in 'taqiyyah' when it doesn't fit in with peoples ideology.

So I think on certain issues, the sayed could speak himself.

wa salaam