99 replies to this topic

[786khayr]

Freedom to work, study and do whatever they want within the bounds of Islam... and the boundaries of Allah SWT...

[Aqua]

Religious
Family person
Good father
Committed to building a life with someone
No temper problems.

[Al-Mufeed]

all this stuff about "freedom" sounds like these women want some sort of pansy husband, whose not man enough to put his foot down when its needed. Women need to be told what to do allot of the time, if a man doesnt do that the whole family will fall apart.

[MadeehaBatool23]

- practicing shia muslim
- good imaan
- good akhlaq
- knowledgeable
- well educated
- funny
- fluent in english
- not lazy

Edited by MadeehaBatool23, 22 March 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[ImAli]

yamolaAlimadad, on 22 March 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

many girls have told me this, but i really dont get it.....

what does this really means? what kind of freedom?

To work if we choose, to go see our family when we like, etc.....this is what we mean when we say we want freedom.

You act like the women are asking to go to drink, go to clubs, and go to college spring break or something when it is nothing like that.....usually when we ask for freedom it is very simple IN OTHER WORDS WE DON'T WANT AN OPPRESSIVE HUSBAND JUST BECAUSE IT MAKES HIM FEEL LIKE A MAN.

[UndercoverBrother]

Women are so hard to please, then complain when they can't find a husband. Maybe if you didnt have such a strict filter you would find more matches.

[ImAli]

UndercoverBrother, on 22 March 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Women are so hard to please, then complain when they can't find a husband. Maybe if you didnt have such a strict filter you would find more matches.

Nice...I hope that wasn't directed at me. I already have a husband so nice try if it was.

[Inception]

Honestly, most of the girls here had realistic criteria, like he should be

religious + educated + family guy + fun ...these things...all realistic

then the reactions from the guys are like...

oh, girls are demanding, oh, girls make it hard to get married, oh, good luck with finding him....

Honestly guys, you make it sound like NONE of you can fulfil more than ....2 criteria at one time ?!?!?!?!

[ImAli]

Inception, on 22 March 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Honestly, most of the girls here had realistic criteria, like he should be

religious + educated + family guy + fun ...these things...all realistic

then the reactions from the guys are like...

oh, girls are demanding, oh, girls make it hard to get married, oh, good luck with finding him....

Honestly guys, you make it sound like NONE of you can fulfil more than ....2 criteria at one time ?!?!?!?!

Read the perfect woman thread...they are just as demanding.

[md. ammar ali]

intresting topic

[Aqua]

Quote

all this stuff about "freedom" sounds like these women want some sort of pansy husband, whose not man enough to put his foot down when its needed. Women need to be told what to do allot of the time, if a man doesnt do that the whole family will fall apart.

I don't understand what you are getting all worked up about when we mention "freedom". I think you have this idea that it means taking off your hijab, staying out late, wearing tight clothes, talking to guys and doing a bunch of bad things. I think one person mentioned that freedom was having the choice to do things within the boundaries of Islam, and that's my perfect definition. For example, I want the freedom to keep going to school when I'm married - this is one of my conditions. Does my husband have a right to take that choice away from me because he has to "put his foot down"? What does that even MEAN anyways?

You know, I had a friend who was engaged to this guy who wanted to test her limits before they got married. They were only engaged for one day and he already started telling her how to dress, how to act and how to talk. Mind you, the guy was not religious AT ALL (he had tons of girlfriends before and he drank alcohol) so it wasn't like he was trying to get her to be a good Muslimah, he just wanted to exercise his control over her. He told her not to wear certain hijabs because he didn't like the "colors" on her, and there was one incident where he actually yelled at her and said, "Sit down, you have to do what I say," for looking after her younger cousin while the mother was away. I mean, it was obvious he was just trying to play games with her, and he sure didn't do it in a way that was bound to work with anybody, because he was engaged 3 times before he actually had to go to another country to get a wife who would put up with him.

What does it mean for a man to "put his foot down"? Does it mean he has to play puppeteer over his wife just so he can feel secure about his masculinity? Does it mean we have to put up with absolutely EVERYTHING he tells us to do so he can feel like a man? I didn't know that a man's worth was measured by how much control he has over his wife, but by how decent a human being he his.  

And regardless of what you say...men also need to be told what to do a lot of the time. Sorry, but it's true. Especially in my experience, with the men in my family and my community.

What it all comes down to is trust and mutual respect for one another. If you really have a problem with your spouse's "freedom" then you need to talk to them about it and establish some boundaries, not boss them around and expect them to just do exactly what you say, because most of the time, that will just backfire on you.

[Al-Mufeed]

Allah didnt just arbitrarily give the right of the house hold decisions to the man - and also not allow the woman out of the house with out the mans permission. This is not some thing that doesnt have wisdom behind it.

Women generally cant figure out what they want 90% of the time, they change their minds about things very quickly, and become very stressed easily and generally cant handle stress or be firm in decision making.

More over they are driven by emotions, and when they start talking about wanting all this "freedom" and "fun" etc it almost always leads to un Islamic things. I don't blame the woman, this is her nature she needs to be guided in that manner, I blame the men.

Ill give some examples, for example - women want to have "fun" - religious women/hijabi who work some sort of career want to go out with their co workers in mixed environments with out their husbands, while their co workers go to some resturant where they have regular food but  also serve alcoholic drink at the same time- or to some other sort of event. I have had many brothers tell me about this, as it has caused all sorts of fights when the wife wants to go to these types of things, says its harmless - no big deal, and the husband tells  her no, she starts complaining about him being too strict, not giving her freedom etc. I have seen a bunch of cases of this.

Another example, wife being too leniant with the kids, especially the girls, letting them go out - with "friends" - turns out to be mixed gatherings, the mother doesnt usually care - saying its all harmless "fun" - the father tries to do some thing, the wife starts complaining. I have heard of so many thigns like this, that end up really bad - with the daughter in relationships etc, all of this because the father didnt learn to be assertive in the first place.

Another exmaple - i have been to allot of religous peoples homes where they have christmas trees and other sorts of pagan stuff (even though they are muslim) - i ask the men about it and they say its their wives, they want it - and think its "fun" and nice, and the men are to much of sissies to tell her NO.

They think all these things (and a load of other stuff) are harmless - just fun etc, because they think with their emotions more than they do with their logic.

[Aqua]

Quote

Women generally cant figure out what they want 90% of the time, they change their minds about things very quickly, and become very stressed easily and generally cant handle stress or be firm in decision making.

I would tell you that you are generalizing, but I'm pretty sure you already know the that you are. The way I see it, men can't figure out what they want just as much as women. You've only attributed the emotional side of human nature to women, when it is actually a HUMAN thing that everyone, including men, feel. Are you saying that men aren't as controlled by their emotions as women? People say women are ruled by emotions and as a result are "needy" or cry a lot or whatever. What about men's emotions? Aren't they, to an extent, just as much ruled by their emotions as women? I have definitely seen men's anger and impulsiveness impair their decision making skills (granted, I believe anger and impulsiveness are HUMAN traits not merely associated with only men or women, but in my experience, men are generally the main gender that let anger affect their judgment).

I'll give you an example: how many times have you heard of a woman beating or abusing her husband out of anger? Hardly ever, right? That's because men are generally the ones that take out their anger (most of the time on their wives or children) through violence. Isn't this a serious impairment of judgment as a result of emotions?

But anyways, that wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about a man's right to rule over his wife's freedom. I'm in favor of supportive husbands who want to keep their wives safe from things that would lead them away from the right path - I totally get that and it sounds like that's what you are trying to advocate. However, I am NOT in favor of non-religious men trying to control their wives as a means to boost their masculine ego. This is the case with most men in my community.

Another problem is - some men are too assertive without explanation or any attempt to make themselves understood. Like my dad for example - he would always tell me no to things and then when I ask why, he gets angry and says, "Don't ask why! Do what I say!" Like I'm questioning his authority or something. It's important to be able to sit down with your kids or spouse and actually COMMUNICATE so you understand each other. Just bossing people around and expecting them not to question you is not going to work - it will cause your loved ones to resent you more than anything.

And you have definitely generalized a lot about women, saying that they do not think "logically" but with their emotions. I can think of hundreds of scenarios where men are more ruled by their emotions than women are. And you think it's just women that want all "fun and games"? I could give you many, many personal examples here that would prove you wrong. But I'm not trying to prove that one gender is better or worse than the other - rather, INDIVIDUALS are. And it just seems like you don't give us enough credit - you just go right ahead and assume all these things about how "logical" and "emotional" humans are just based on gender, without taking the individual into consideration.

Edited by Aqua, 23 March 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[Al-Mufeed]

Quote

I'll give you an example: how many times have you heard of a woman beating or abusing her husband out of anger? Hardly ever, right? That's because men are generally the ones that take out their anger (most of the time on their wives or children) through violence. Isn't this a serious impairment of judgment as a result of emotions?

Thats because they are not physically capable of doing so in 99% of cases, as men are physically stronger than women, and always possess the capability of having such a power over them - not that its an excuse for abuse.

Quote

And it just seems like you don't give us enough credit - you just go right ahead and assume all these things about how "logical" and "emotional" humans are just based on gender, without taking the individual into consideration

When speaking of society and making statments - they have to be made about generalizations, its impossible to try to look at every situation individualistically that doesnt work in real life.

[Aqua]

Exactly. But why did you disregard everything else I said? Does that not make at least some sense to you?

[MALANGG]

loving caring huh i need to make a list brb

[Aqua]

Quote

When speaking of society and making statments - they have to be made about generalizations, its impossible to try to look at every situation individualistically that doesnt work in real life.

Well yeah but if you just go around making unrealistic generalizations about everything that is just going to cause problems and a lack of understanding between people.

[Al-Mufeed]

the only other thing you said was that a man should communicate with his family why he forbids them from certain things, this is common sense
and should go with out  saying.


Also in regaurds to not generalizing about women, ahlulbayt did that them selves, as we have numerous hadeeths in that regard, its because its a reality of women. For example one hadeeth:


[ 25368 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن النوفلي ، عن السكوني ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) : من أطاع امرأته أكبه الله على وجهه في النار ، قيل : وما تلك الطاعة ؟ قال : تطلب اليه الذهاب إلى الحماماتوالعرسات والعيدات والنياحات والثياب الرقاق .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from an-Nawfali from as-Sakuni from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: One who obeys his wife Allah will prostrate him upon his face in the Fire.  It was said: And what is that obedience?  He said: She seeks from him to go out to the bathhouses, weddings, `eids, lamentations, and fine clothing.

[Alejandro Sosa]

I think the bottom line here is that women can wear the trousers in the relationship....as long as they iron and wash them aswell.

[AR2011]

Quote

all this stuff about "freedom" sounds like these women want some sort of pansy husband, whose not man enough to put his foot down when its needed

i think the bolded part is the point of contention here. broadly speaking, a marriage works best if its a partnership in which each spouse consults the other about important decisions. however, ur right in saying that Allah swt has decreed a husband to be the protector of his wife and therefore, if "it is needed", he should be able to assert his authority. the problem of advocating that men should be "man enough" to "put his foot down" in a broader context is that we get many examples like Aqua outlined where men feel the need to assert their power for no good reason other than to prove his "worth" or"manliness". theres an arab saying that says a man should slaughter a cat on the night of the wedding (as an example to his wife that he "means business" and is powerful) and i think this kind of mentality leads to a lot of destruction in families. neither a wife nor her husband should feel the need to play mind games with each other. the whole point of building a strong relationship is to be honest and open with each other.

i think most logical women would respect their husband's opinion if he asked her not to join her work colleagues (group of males and females) for dinner and even if she didnt agree with his opinion, i'd like to think most women, out of respect and love for their husbands would not go out with her colleagues as long as he is holding her accountable to the same standards he lives his life by. if, for example, a woman found it acceptable to go out with a group of colleagues and her husband asked her not to but he himself has been out with a mixed group of colleagues and sat at a table where alcohol was being served then it would be very difficult for her to digest such a thing because of the hypocrisy. however, this is very different from a husband, who for example decides to assert his authority on his wife by telling her she can not go for a meal with her female friends or can not go to visit her family for no apparent reason.

Edited by AR2011, 23 March 2012 - 04:56 PM.

[786khayr]

yes I agree Allah has created women different to men, men are physically and emotionally stronger.
In Islam yes the wife has to respect the husband, however he really can't be overprotective and controlling. He should understand the needs and wants of the wife, he should give her "the freedom" and support to gain an education, work and socialise etc if she wants too ALL WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF ISLAM. Respect and love are usually earned, its a mutual thing.. you give, you will receive it too. If there is a scenario where the husband practically does not allow his wife to go out etc, he works and socialises himself all the time, it is unfair on her isn't it, if she starts getting frustated and starts going crazy inside the house you'll know why, not getting along with MIL etc, sometimes females needs something thats mentally stimulating besides housework, that will keep them busy and they will feel that they are contributing constructively to society.. in this day and age, I honeslty feel muslim women should be out there engaged in society, as we bear the flag of Islam (the hijab), but this really can't be done without the support and understanding of the brothers... Being a wife and mother is only one side of womanhood, gaining an education, working and being exposed to society will assist us in gaining the skills and confidence to lay aside the negative stereotype that muslim women are an oppressed and uneducated species...

Its is a very diificult balance to achieve (the role of women), but it comes with mutual understanding and I feel those who achieve it have a very successful and content life as husband and wife...

[Alshajr]

Aswrwb

Whilst I agree with most of what the sisters are saying about the need for women to be free from domestic oppression, it is necessary to understand the order of the way Allah swt has designed the Islamic family structure. Indeed that is why it is such an important criteria in marriage to look for a pious and sincere husband (and equality of religious practice also helps) - as a pious husband should lead the household to piety. Allah swt has given men authority but women with their attractive nature and good conduct can establish a strong trust between the husband and wife which will cause the husband to admire his wife and believe that she is making him a better Mumin.

Some generalisations are more in tune with reality than others nevertheless, we are both creation of The Almighty and we should treat each other with respect. Allah is displeased with any oppression of one creation over another. The authority of husband over the family is a responsibility towards the wife and family. Success will be achieved if every decision is taken whilst considering if it is something Allah would be pleased by and also if the intention is sincere.

Of course most of this does not hold true if the husband does not hold Allah close to his heart.

[Alshajr]

786khayr, on 23 March 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

yes I agree Allah has created women different to men, men are physically and emotionally stronger.
In Islam yes the wife has to respect the husband, however he really can't be overprotective and controlling. He should understand the needs and wants of the wife, he should give her "the freedom" and support to gain an education, work and socialise etc if she wants too ALL WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF ISLAM. Respect and love are usually earned, its a mutual thing.. you give, you will receive it too. If there is a scenario where the husband practically does not allow his wife to go out etc, he works and socialises himself all the time, it is unfair on her isn't it, if she starts getting frustated and starts going crazy inside the house you'll know why, not getting along with MIL etc, sometimes females needs something thats mentally stimulating besides housework, that will keep them busy and they will feel that they are contributing constructively to society.. in this day and age, I honeslty feel muslim women should be out there engaged in society, as we bear the flag of Islam (the hijab), but this really can't be done without the support and understanding of the brothers... Being a wife and mother is only one side of womanhood, gaining an education, working and being exposed to society will assist us in gaining the skills and confidence to lay aside the negative stereotype that muslim women are an oppressed and uneducated species...

Its is a very diificult balance to achieve (the role of women), but it comes with mutual understanding and I feel those who achieve it have a very successful and content life as husband and wife...

Islam provides the perfect balance for a well functioning family. The husband and wife both have a role in this family and are dependant on each other whilst being entirely dependant on Allah swt. Aspects of each role need to be prioritised as to what is obligatory and what earns the pleasure of Our Creator. A man should understand the needs and wants of a woman just as said above as well as to keep far away from hipocrisy. Yes women do need something more stimulating than housework and they should socialise with family and with other Muslimahs. They should work together to improve the community and organise fun days. There is much islamic education that could be acquired such as reading/learning Quran, and other forms of knowledge would also provide confidence and stimulation if acquired for the right reasons and in the appropriate measure.

Every time I reflect I realise the wisdom of Islam. Our most valuable asset apart from faith is time. The time we have on this earth will determine the number of good deeds we can do. As it is the responsibility of the husband to earn a livelihood and provide for the family, time, the very important asset, is consumed in this affair. In fact me as a male who works am constantly frustrated at the amount of time I have to dedicate towards earning. As you mentioned men are also generally emotionally stronger which provides them the tools to deal with the responsibility of work stress. Men and women handle stress differently and as emotional interaction is vital in a successful marriage, an imbalance in this aspect would be undesirable. Earning a livelihood for men (anything halal) is worship to Allah as it is a duty in the Islamic lifestyle. Time has to be dedicated towards this duty which means it is diverted away from other things. A woman does not have this responsibility which means that she can dedicate time, the enabling asset, to earning the pleasure of Allah swt in other ways whilst stimulating her mind and soul.

Of course women do want to interact with society and them going about their duties outside the home is a banner for Islam. Women who want to contribute to society should do so but the problem arises when priorities are jumbled. The woman's career most often gets in the way of other duties that a woman specifically would be better rewarded for doing. Demanding careers such as medicine are valuable as they are utilised to help other women and children but the fact they eat so much time up during pre-qualification and post qualification makes that balance so much more harder to strike as well as the crazy high tuition fees which will have to be repayed which usually means full-time (i.e. all your time) work, and the interactive and mixed environment (both patients and colleagues). This is especially true as we do not know when our time on this earth will end, we should always utilise our time to perform our duties and seek the pleasure of Allah in what he prescribed. Even when some sort of balance is reached, something often is sacrificed. Whether the woman does not have enough time in the morning to be good company to the husband, or she is too tired when she returns back from work, or she is emotionally turned off and stressed out, or whether they do not get enough time to read Quran daily because of work duties and home committments. Prioritisation is key according to what our role is and the way it has been designed by The Creator.

A woman who supports a believing man and the believing man contributes to society should know that he is not contributing to society on his own but they are successful as a team. That is contribution to society and Allah is the witness over all things and The Knower of all intention. After all why is marriage said to be completion of half of deen? what does this union represent?

wswrwb