47 replies to this topic

[Ugly Jinn]

eThErEaL, on 13 January 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

you and I dont share the same and identical concept of justice?  how si it we can even communicate to each other?

Because of an inherent ability.

Some may call it a curse, and I'm sure you'll say it's justice.

[eThErEaL]

Ugly Jinn, on 18 January 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

Because of an inherent ability.

Some may call it a curse, and I'm sure you'll say it's justice.

[Ugly Jinn]

Again, it's an assumption not proof.

Otherwise I'll use humans that are unable to communicate as proof of injustice.

[eThErEaL]

Ugly Jinn, on 19 January 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Again, it's an assumption not proof.

Otherwise I'll use humans that are unable to communicate as proof of injustice.

what is justice?  and do you believe in it at all?

[ShiaBen]

Atheist27, on 12 January 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

I dont understand. what you mean by ideal?

In other words. There needs to be a greater power, to establish justice world wide.

Since there's so much injustice around the world. Only one force can answer to all these issues and problems.

[Ugly Jinn]

eThErEaL, on 19 January 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

what is justice?  and do you believe in it at all?

Definition of justice will vary (as you have shown the ability to communicate can be justice). Regardless of what exactly the definition is, it cannot be proven in this world. Probably proven in the hereafter (that is if a person believes in it).

Do I believe in justice? In this world only, 'no'. If an hereafter exists then 'yes'.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 20 January 2012 - 04:24 AM.

[wundermonk]

Shia_Debater, on 11 January 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Allah (swt) gave us free choice. We have the choice to do what we want, however if I come and oppress someone, be sure that through his justice, Allah (swt) will punish me, and Allah (swt) will reward the person who went through oppression and hardship.

Just because you dont see the reward in this world, doesnt mean you wont see it in the next.

Is something like the following what you have in mind?

Two souls, A and B, begin at score 0 here on earth when they take birth. They have free will. A oppresses B. A's score becomes -5. B's score becomes +5. A and B die. In the "hereafter", B will oppress A so that the net score of A and B becomes 0 again?

[Shia_Debater]

wundermonk, on 20 January 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Is something like the following what you have in mind?

Two souls, A and B, begin at score 0 here on earth when they take birth. They have free will. A oppresses B. A's score becomes -5. B's score becomes +5. A and B die. In the "hereafter", B will oppress A so that the net score of A and B becomes 0 again?

Up to there you got it correct. Then in the "hereafter" Allah will Punish A, and will reward B.

[Dhulfikar]

Quote

Definition of justice will vary

Justice is not depend on Humanity definition. Justice exist in our "Fitrah" nature and it can clearly be shown. One example Allah (SWT) remind us in Quran about the opposite of justice is "eat up not one another’s property unjustly (in any illegal way e.g. stealing, robbing, deceiving, etc.)". These Illegal way, stealing, robbing,deceiving are our negative attributes or Unjust attributes exist in our Tabi'ah nature. It's opposite are Positive attributes, legal way, earning, buying or giving with halal intention, Honest.

Allah (SWT) gave us Quran and other books to remind us what is Fitrah and Tabi'ah so that Human do not corrupt its meaning; making Tabi'ah to look like Fitrah.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 20 January 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[wundermonk]

Shia_Debater, on 20 January 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Up to there you got it correct. Then in the "hereafter" Allah will Punish A, and will reward B.

In the "hereafter", is the score accumulated on earth relevant? For instance, in the case of A and B, the scores were -5 and +5 on the Day of Resurrection.

Let us say C oppresses D more than A oppresses B and the scores for C and D are -10 and +10 on the Day of Resurrection.

Is the reward provided by Allah twice for D as compared to B and is the punishment meted out to C as compared to A twice as severe?

[Shia_Debater]

wundermonk, on 20 January 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

In the "hereafter", is the score accumulated on earth relevant? For instance, in the case of A and B, the scores were -5 and +5 on the Day of Resurrection.

Let us say C oppresses D more than A oppresses B and the scores for C and D are -10 and +10 on the Day of Resurrection.

Is the reward provided by Allah twice for D as compared to B and is the punishment meted out to C as compared to A twice as severe?

I think so

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Assuming the (non-logical) assumption that God can in fact be 'unjust', just or unjust doesn't make a difference, you're still powerless.

[wundermonk]

Shia_Debater, on 20 January 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I think so

I dont think there is any uncertainty, actually - if justice is to be perfect.

Now, severity of punishment/pleasure of reward can be more or less in one of two ways:

(1)the same severity/pleasure can extend for more time or less time.
(2)more severity/pleasure can extend for the same time.

Which do you think it is?

Now, consider the following scenario, with 3 souls [A, B and C]. A oppresses B [score is -5, 5, 0]. B oppresses C [score is -5, 5 - 5 = 0, 5]. C oppresses A [score is -5 + 5 = 0, 0, 5 - 5 = 0].

So, on the day of resurrection, the tally is [0, 0, 0]. Is any punishment meted out, pleasure awarded?

[Dhulfikar]

Quote

Now, consider the following scenario, with 3 souls [A, B and C]. A oppresses B [score is -5, 5, 0]. B oppresses C [score is -5, 5 - 5 = 0, 5]. C oppresses A [score is -5 + 5 = 0, 0, 5 - 5 = 0].

There is also problem with this, just because A oppresses B, that just not mean that B will receive +5 points. Because B may have made sins before, thus B will expirence the consequences of sin with the action of A.

Also let say A opresses the innocent B, and A will get Sin and B will get Reward, who says that the reward is equal to the sin in number?

Edited by Dhulfikar, 20 January 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Shia_Debater]

wundermonk, on 20 January 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

I dont think there is any uncertainty, actually - if justice is to be perfect.

Now, severity of punishment/pleasure of reward can be more or less in one of two ways:

(1)the same severity/pleasure can extend for more time or less time.
(2)more severity/pleasure can extend for the same time.

Which do you think it is?

Now, consider the following scenario, with 3 souls [A, B and C]. A oppresses B [score is -5, 5, 0]. B oppresses C [score is -5, 5 - 5 = 0, 5]. C oppresses A [score is -5 + 5 = 0, 0, 5 - 5 = 0].

So, on the day of resurrection, the tally is [0, 0, 0]. Is any punishment meted out, pleasure awarded?

I believe that in the end Allah (swt) will decide what every single human deserves [With Justice] after forgiveness/expiation of the sins.

Anyways I would rather not talk about Allah (swt) any more if you don't mind, as the narrations from the Imams [as] tell us to not ponder over Allah (swt) as it will lead to confusion.

And from Muhammad b. al Hasan from Sahl b. Ziyad from al Hasan b. Mahbub from `Ali b. Ri’aab from Abu Baseer. He said: Abu Ja`far said: Speak about Allah’s creation and do not speak regarding Allah, for talk about Allah does not add save perplexity (in alTauheed: لا يزيد إلا تحيرا) for its owner. (al Kafi)

And with the chains from ibn Ri’aab from Burayd al `Ajali, who said: Abu `Abdillah said: The Messenger of Allah (sawa) came upon his companions and said: What have you gathered for? They said: We have gathered so that we may remember our Lord and ponder over His greatness. He said: You shall never comprehend (Him) by pondering over His greatness. (al Tauheed)

And from his father from Sa`d from Ahmad b. Muhammad from `Abdullah b. al Mughirah from Abu ‘l Yasa` from Abu ‘l Jarud from Abu Ja`far , who said: Leave off deliberation in Allah for deliberation in Allah does not add to save confusion, for the vision comprehends Him not nor do the reports reach Him (or convey regarding Him).

Edited by Shia_Debater, 20 January 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Ugly Jinn]

Dhulfikar, on 20 January 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Justice is not depend on Humanity definition. Justice exist in our "Fitrah" nature and it can clearly be shown. One example Allah (SWT) remind us in Quran about the opposite of justice is "eat up not one another’s property unjustly (in any illegal way e.g. stealing, robbing, deceiving, etc.)". These Illegal way, stealing, robbing,deceiving are our negative attributes or Unjust attributes exist in our Tabi'ah nature. It's opposite are Positive attributes, legal way, earning, buying or giving with halal intention, Honest.

Allah (SWT) gave us Quran and other books to remind us what is Fitrah and Tabi'ah so that Human do not corrupt its meaning; making Tabi'ah to look like Fitrah.

Our fitrah doesn't know what justice is or not, it is learned/influenced, whether from religion, society, etc.

Your definition of justice is coming from a religious source, it's not coming from within you (fitrah), hence all societies presently have different laws on what justice is, defined by plethora of influences.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 20 January 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Dhulfikar]

Quote

Our fitrah doesn't know what justice is or not, it is learned/influenced, whether from religion, society, etc.

Your definition of justice is coming from a religious source, it's not coming from within you (fitrah), hence all societies presently have different laws on what justice is, influenced by plethora of areas.

You do understand that i said clearly word "reminder", because Fitrah is already there in our nature but we may not be aware of it. Religion is only a remider or awaker of our Fitrah nature, and it teach and not define what already is.

[Shakir 91:7] And the soul and Him Who made it perfect,
[Shakir 91:8] Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;
[Shakir 91:9] He will indeed be successful who purifies it,
[Shakir 91:10] And he will indeed fail who corrupts it.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 20 January 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Ugly Jinn]

Dhulfikar, on 20 January 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

You do understand that i said clearly word "reminder", because Fitrah is already there in our nature but we may not be aware of it. Religion is only a remider or awaker of our Fitrah nature, and it teach and not define what already is.

[Shakir 91:7] And the soul and Him Who made it perfect,
[Shakir 91:8] Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;
[Shakir 91:9] He will indeed be successful who purifies it,
[Shakir 91:10] And he will indeed fail who corrupts it.

You are using nothing more than religious sources to define 'justice' and to state it's in our fitrah, using the word 'reminder' is from your religious source. If definition of 'justice' was in everyone's fitrah then reminders would eliminate all variances on this subject. At the end, humans decide what 'justice' is, and what 'reminders' (even though 'reminder' is a biased approach but I'm still using it) to learn from, hence it's definition varies.

Your definition of 'justice' holds the same weight as a Hindu's definition of 'justice', both learned/influenced by their religious sources.

And to get to the root of the point, it cannot be proven. You cannot prove Allah is Just, like a Jews cannot prove Yahweh is Just, and just like a Hindus cannot prove it's God/s are Just - it's a belief.

"I believe Allah is Just". Can I prove it? No.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 20 January 2012 - 03:14 PM.

[Dhulfikar]

Quote

You are using nothing more than religious sources to define 'justice' and to state it's in our fitrah, using the word 'reminder' is from your religious source.

And they are found in this reality and i have tested it and it works, so the religious source have manifested itself in reality.

Quote

If definition of 'justice' was in everyone's fitrah then reminders would eliminate all variances on this subject.

Yes. The reminders are those who are perfected in Fitrah and removed Tabi'ah from their self.

Quote

If definition of 'justice' was in everyone's fitrah then reminders would eliminate all variances on this subject. At the end, humans decide what 'justice' is, and what 'reminders' (even though 'reminder' is a biased approach but I'm still using it) to learn from, hence it's definition varies.

Objective justice which comes from Fitrah (Divine Nature) is not different in different human being, Objective Justice does exist and it manifest in all of us and it does not depend on Human Being decision. What veils it, is the Human desire to manipulate it with Tabi'ah. This veils create different illusion of Justice.

Quote

And to get to the root of the point, it cannot be proven. You cannot prove Allah is Just, like a Jews cannot prove Yahweh is Just, and just like a Hindus cannot prove it's God/s are Just - it's a belief.

It's start from belief but it can develop to certainty.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 20 January 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[Ugly Jinn]

Dhulfikar, on 20 January 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

And they are found in this reality and i have tested it and it works, so the religious source have manifested itself in reality.

Your 'test' working holds the same weight as Person X's 'test' not working.

Jebreil, on 20 January 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

The fact that so many of us - if not all humans - have an aspiration of Justice/fairness/goodness/ought does reflect that something of our nature. So, the fiṭra theory can be argued for convincingly, such that all natural law theories and religions and most political ideologies believe that 'justice' must be discovered by reason or a sort of moral compass or other faculties in human nature.

I agree with this, and what I said doesn't contradict with what you say above, hence we learn the definition via aspiration (as you put it) from plethora of influences.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 21 January 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[Dhulfikar]

Quote

Your 'test' working holds the same weight as Person X's 'test' not working.

If the concept can be tested and it's manifest in reality as truth then that is absolute.