47 replies to this topic

[Atheist27]

Salam,

How do you proove Allah is Just, when there is evil in the world?

[Shia_Debater]

Allah (swt) gave us free choice. We have the choice to do what we want, however if I come and oppress someone, be sure that through his justice, Allah (swt) will punish me, and Allah (swt) will reward the person who went through oppression and hardship.

Just because you dont see the reward in this world, doesnt mean you wont see it in the next.

[Atheist27]

Salam,

Quote

Allah (swt) gave us free choice.

How does that proove Allah´s justice?

You said trought his justice justice will happend at the end. But how do you proove that He is Just?

Edited by Atheist27, 11 January 2012 - 08:35 AM.

[alisayyed]

those who perform evil will be punished and the good rewarded/compensated . the punishment or reward/compensation will be either in this world or in the hereafter .

what is good and what is evil has been known by what has been sent through his messengers , who have been sent with miracles to prove that that they are messengers of GOD .

[Shia_Debater]

Atheist27, on 11 January 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Salam,



How does that proove Allah´s justice?

You said trought his justice justice will happend at the end. But how do you proove that He is Just?

read the whole post, and also read what alisayyed said.

[Atheist27]

yes, but that does not proove anything. Its just beliefs. Hoe´w do you proove your beliefs?. How do you deduct from the dunya that Allah is Just? Basicly how do you proove day of judgement?

Edited by Atheist27, 11 January 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[alisayyed]

my post mentions the answer - the messengers of GOD have been sent with miracles , which prove that they are messengers of GOD and if they say that the day of judgment will take place , it will .

[Atheist27]

What miracle you are talking about? I have no idea of any miracle that has been revealed to me as  a sign?

Edited by Atheist27, 11 January 2012 - 08:57 AM.

[alisayyed]

i thought you would say that .

here is a link to explain one of the biggest miracles :

http://www.quranmiracles.com

i think it is a Sunni website , but let me check .

[Atheist27]

I will check it.

[alisayyed]

i got the contact info of the person from alexa :


Istanbul Yayinevi
Gumussuyu inonu caddesi #20 Taksim
Istanbul, 34500
TURKEY
kurandakidin [at] hotmail.com

i still dont know if he is Sunni or a shia .,but who cares , the website may not be perfect , but some of the explanations have no answers .
I mean , how can someone 1400 years ago , know such information , which scientists have now understood after long years of research in the last few decades/years .

[Atheist27]

This tafseer is not from Ahlulbayt, nor from any narration of hadiths. Its purely man made.


edit. If you have any hadiths that confirm the tafseers given by the interpretator i am glad to check them out.

Let me give an example.

With power did We construct heaven. Verily, We are expanding it.  (51 : 47)

The site says this means the BIG BANG. But Hadiths talk about Light that was created first. Big bang talks about all mass in singularity and that being first created thing. Its totally different thing. Can you proove by narration that its really talking about big bang? And do you think then the other hadiths are wrong?

http://www.shiachat....ation-of-Allah/


Bakri (Sayyid Abu al-Hasan Ahmad ibn `Abd Allah, d. 3rd c.) in his book al-Anwar fi mawlid al-nabi Muhammad `alayhi al-salat wa al-salam (p. 5 of the Najaf edition) cites the following hadith from `Ali: "Allah was and there was nothing with Him, and the first thing which He created was the light of His Beloved, before He created water, or the Throne, or the Footstool, or the Tablet, or the Pen, or Paradise, or the Fire, or the Veils and the Clouds, or Adam and Eve, by four thousand years."

Edited by Atheist27, 11 January 2012 - 09:45 AM.

[Atheist27]

Can anyone proove Allah´s justice whitout Quran?

[Ugly Jinn]

It cannot be proven, it's a belief (unless God takes measures to clearly prove it somehow (ex. empirically)).

Proof (empirical) will occur after death (probably on the Day of Judgement, if you believe in it that is).

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 11 January 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[Atheist27]

Ugly Jinn, on 11 January 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

It cannot be proven, it's a belief (unless God takes measures to clearly prove it somehow (ex. empirically)).

Proof (empirical) will occur after death (probably on the Day of Judgement, if you believe in it that is).

Is that so? Everybody else also think that way?

[eThErEaL]

Atheist27, on 11 January 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Is that so? Everybody else also think that way?

Not I.  I tend to think in the Platonic way. Where does the idea of justice come from?  this quality in itself is perfect not imperfect otherwise it wouldn't be justice itself.  Where is perfect justice found?  in none other than God---Perfect Man being made in His image.

[Atheist27]

eThErEaL, on 11 January 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Not I.  I tend to think in the Platonic way. Where does the idea of justice come from?  this quality in itself is perfect not imperfect otherwise it wouldn't be justice itself.  Where is perfect justice found?  in none other than God---Perfect Man being made in His image.

Interesting wiev. Can you explaine more what you mean how does it prooves Allah´s justice if there is idea of justice?

[eThErEaL]

Atheist27, on 12 January 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:

Interesting view. Can you explain more what you mean how does it PROVE Allah´s justice if there is idea of justice?

because the concept of justice is ideal and perfect.  It is also real and non-mental.   This is God.

[Atheist27]

I dont understand. what you mean by ideal?

Edited by Atheist27, 12 January 2012 - 06:56 AM.

[JawzofDETH]

alisayyed, on 11 January 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

i got the contact info of the person from alexa :


Istanbul Yayinevi
Gumussuyu inonu caddesi #20 Taksim
Istanbul, 34500
TURKEY
kurandakidin [at] hotmail.com

i still dont know if he is Sunni or a shia .,but who cares

Exactly. "Knowledge is the property of the believer wherever he finds it."

eThErEaL, on 12 January 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

because the concept of justice is ideal and perfect.  It is also real and non-mental.   This is God.

That's a great answer, even for a neo-platonist

[Ugly Jinn]

Atheist27, on 11 January 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Everybody else also think that way?

Not everyone thinks alike. You've already witnessed that on this thread.

eThErEaL, on 11 January 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Not I.  I tend to think in the Platonic way. Where does the idea of justice come from?  this quality in itself is perfect not imperfect otherwise it wouldn't be justice itself.  Where is perfect justice found?  in none other than God---Perfect Man being made in His image.

Your premise is based on an opinionated assumption that man is perfect and he is an image of God.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 12 January 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[alisayyed]

i mentioned the fact that the Quran Miracles - website is not perfect , but you will some explanations of Quranic miracles hard or simply impossible to disprove of .

Thus, proving that the messengers have knowledge not commonly known ( divine knowledge ) , given to them by GOD .( i mean otherwise how could they have known that ) .

[eThErEaL]

Ugly Jinn, on 12 January 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Your premise is based on an opinionated assumption that man is perfect and he is an image of God.

that was just extra info which I thought might be helpful...  I didn't "need" to mention it.  point is that all of us have perfect ideas which are universally shared.  one such idea is the idea of justice.  it is not merely an individual thought but is universally shared by every person.  This universal idea of justice which transcends all instances of justice is none other than God.

Atheist27, on 12 January 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

I dont understand. what you mean by ideal?

most perfect way something can be.  usually people say this cannot possibly be in the physical realm since nothing is perfect.  such ideals ppl would say just exist in the subjective mind.  But how is it we all share the same ideals then in a universal way?  so its not in the subjective mind but in some kind of non-corporeal, non-material, Objective reality.  which we call God.

[Ugly Jinn]

eThErEaL, on 12 January 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

that was just extra info which I thought might be helpful...  I didn't "need" to mention it.  point is that all of us have perfect ideas which are universally shared.  one such idea is the idea of justice.  it is not merely an individual thought but is universally shared by every person.  This universal idea of justice which transcends all instances of justice is none other than God.

Again, your premise is based on an opinionated assumption that man's ideas are perfect and universally shared.

Edited by Ugly Jinn, 13 January 2012 - 02:46 PM.

[eThErEaL]

Ugly Jinn, on 13 January 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Again, your premise is based on an opinionated assumption that man's ideas are perfect and universally shared.

you and I dont share the same and identical concept of justice?  how si it we can even communicate to each other?