94 replies to this topic

[OneNoteSong]

Seriously, 12-step it with Sex Addicts Anonymous.

[wayfarer.]

Alshajr, on 01 April 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

I agree with you and nobody has meant that every Muslim female is like this. The issue with the career in current society (today) is that competition is fierce which forces the applicant to sacrifice much to be able to succeed in the career. The education itself can be many years, internship involves late shifts, working with male colleagues who have to followed around all day and be subordinate to with little separation of sexes whilst working on the opposite sex's private region. If things were different and the career was more balanced and family orientated with a good option of work life balance and segregation then it would be great.
Often it becomes an issue of time. A woman who has been created by Allah to take the role of a Wife and Mother doesnt have the time to deal with the role due to her career. While religion and family may not be neglected, they are not prioritised as they may not be seen as urgent.
Part time work is a viable option if it is put forward by the Muslimah herself but then that is not always available after graduating and may not address the issue of debt.


I wish I could read books at home and enrol in hawza instead of having to work every day; and I enjoy my work!  Men should try not to work where there is a high level of temptation and earning the bread must be halal. Most workplaces are male dominated.

Well said my friend. I share your sentiments.

[Alshajr]

OneNoteSong, on 01 April 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Lol, girls in all kinds of careers end  up getting married later and having kids later --it happens all the time for various reasons. Even if the same girl who was a doctor  had been, say, a daycare worker, she might STILL have married late. But even with these high-powered careers, it is still possible to have kids before age 30. So, why should a girl just sit around at home, waiting for the right guy? Why shouldn't she go out and accomplish something?

The girl I referred to, the one who wants to stay at home after becoming a doctor, her kids are very lucky because should she ever need  to work, she is very employable, and even if she has been out of the job market for years, she will be able to find a job quickly because her skills are in such high demand.

I  know two girls who are future docs who want six kids each. So, dont' be so quick to judge. Most of us girls don't factor career significantly into the number of kids we desire to have.

Yes all kinds of girls get married later but when the career dictates the future for the woman then there is someseriously misplaced priorities of her role. Having kids before 30 is hardly something to look up to. A medical professional should know that fertility rates decrease as women age and if women would like to have children spaced out then this will need to be considered. Accomplishing something is good and so is accomplishing early marriage and an Islamic family structure.

I am not judging their intention. They may want to live a normal life with 5 children and be a good mother and a good wife and spend time with their family and not be tired to give family enough attention and perform wajibaat and mustabhaat and memorise the Qur'an and teach their children Qur'an and religion. What about their debts? what about the time it will take to pay them off and not have children?

Actions is what you base you decision on. As a man you look at your potential wife and look at what she focusses on and spends her time in. If religion takes a back set but career is prioritised then that may not be what a God fearing man who wants to get closer to Allah swt chooses. It is not judging the woman for an exam but deciding what they want for themselves as a spouse.

[OneNoteSong]

Remember, studying itself is a form of ibadah. So, you can't call someone less religious just because they don't sit at home all day reading duas.

Debts can be deferred, and if a woman is staying home to bear the man's babies, why can't he help her out a little with her loans until she can go out and work again?

Edited by OneNoteSong, 01 April 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[ImAli]

Trailblazer, on 01 April 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

You went off on a tangent, but let me boost/stroke your ego if it needs to be stroked. Here goes: oh mashallah sister! such a pious person you are.

Where was I claiming to be oh so pious and why are you offended? Unless you are one of those gossips who knows everything about everyone in the hospital....oh yes one of those.

[Marbles]

Alshajr, on 01 April 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

I wish I could read books at home and enrol in hawza instead of having to work every day; and I enjoy my work!  Men should try not to work where there is a high level of temptation and earning the bread must be halal. Most workplaces are male dominated.

I wasn't talking about running a nightclub or part owning a brewery. Of course the source of income needs to be halal but which workplace on earth, in our day and age, does not involve a measure of interaction between the two sexes? Seeing as most of us work in some "office" of a company or corporation, even if it is male dominated, there are usually enough women around for men who are inclined on that path to indulge in fantasies. The same is true for working women. So why should this rule be any different for women than for men?

And some people don't like to be home cookies. They are outgoing and want to have a vibrant social life. Although I personally don't and would stay at home all times reading books and writing if I could secure some mysterious source of passive income.

Trailblazer, on 01 April 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

If you go back to my post, you can see that I mentioned that this applies to men too.

Okay. That's good to hear. Apologies if I misunderstood you.

Edited by Marbles, 01 April 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[wayfarer.]

ImAli, on 01 April 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Where was I claiming to be oh so pious and why are you offended? Unless you are one of those gossips who knows everything about everyone in the hospital....oh yes one of those.

Where was I offended? Either you are projecting or you have to be downright foolish to assume I would get offended over a post on the internet. Anyways, you went off a tangent when you stated that unlike me, you do not concern yourself with the private lives of others. Firstly it wasn't private as the muslimahs in question were doing it in social gatherings. Secondly, sometimes you have to concern yourself with the affairs of others, and even more so, when this other person is your brother or sister or a person you care for. But this is besides the point. The issue at hand is that I have witnessed firsthand what goes on. This is what has made me conclude that unless the female (vice versa for a male) is steadfast and righteous, its not safe to work in environments where there is free mixing between the two genders.

[AR2011]

^ i think most of us would like to at least, think that we are steadfast and righteous. also, how many mainstream jobs are there that do not have an element of working with the opposite sex? the whole point of hijab (at least this is my understanding) is that it allows u to work and carry out essential social duties. if we werent to mix then the Quran would not have instructed believers to lower the gaze.

ultimately, no one is protected from sin regardless of how righteous they are but i'd like to think that the typical religious person would not even contemplate an illicit relationship with a colleague. i think the cases u have highlighted are a minority and u should not allow these cases to tar ur view of an entire profession. i know plenty of practicing muslim females who are doctors and alhamdulillah they have not foregone their islamic principles.

at the end of the day, if someone does not want to marry a person from x profession then that is entirely their choice and i appreciate that the average working hours of a doctor is in excess of the average working hours of most professions. if the two potentials can not agree on eg part time work etc then they clearly would not be suited. what i think those who are in disagreement with u and bro alshajr have a problem with is a blanket refusal to consider certain professionals.

i certainly had the perception that men are keen to marry females who have excelled educationally because they will impart similar values of educational achievement on their future children. perhaps that is not a view shared by the majority?

[wayfarer.]

^ depends on what you mean by education. The main aim of education is not knowledge but action. If in the process of excelling educationally, a person
develops illicit relationships, then what is the use of this education? This type of education is worth throwing in the [Edited Out] bin. I do not deny the fact that there are practicing muslim professionals who haven't foregone their religious principles. I absolutely respect and admire them for that. Also, I do not know whether the cases I have highlighted are a minority or majority but these cases do occur. Atleast in my experience, I have come across more of these "minority" type cases.

[Alshajr]

OneNoteSong, on 01 April 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Remember, studying itself is a form of ibadah. So, you can't call someone less religious just because they don't sit at home all day reading duas.

Debts can be deferred, and if a woman is staying home to bear the man's babies, why can't he help her out a little with her loans until she can go out and work again?

Ok seeking knowledge/studying is a form of worship if done with th correct intention in the way of Allah swt. Nobody said anything about sitting at home all day reading duas or watching tv, this is what you have equated a non career focussed woman to. I think this is a stereotype on your behalf. Women who are not working or work part time can be a pillar of the community, they can socialise with other women, run charity projects, memorise Qur'an and become hafiz, solve social issues, use skills that they graduated in or learnt to help the community in order to raise the general level of education. They can even educate themselves more at home or at institutions, establish work at home businesses that they could allocate appropriate time towards. The possibilities are endless and this would improve society and would comply with the role of a wife and mother more than a high profile career which will compromise priorities. Who are our women taking as role models? Is it Fatima Zahra or contemporary western women?

Debts can be deferred? without incurring interest? thats a good loan. If the woman is staying at home and being a mother in order to raise children in the way of Allah swt then she should not see the act as a favour to the man or the babies as the man's babies. The man can help out with the debt but is that what the woman expected or planned for? Is it the man's duty to pay for the woman's non essential debts? what if he doesnt/cant, will that be a barrier to children? will that cause animosity?
If a woman sacrifices her time and certain other things for her demanding career it should not fall on the man to support her career aspirations. The question is, what type of man will choose this type of woman.

AR2011, on 01 April 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

^ i think most of us would like to at least, think that we are steadfast and righteous. also, how many mainstream jobs are there that do not have an element of working with the opposite sex? the whole point of hijab (at least this is my understanding) is that it allows u to work and carry out essential social duties. if we werent to mix then the Quran would not have instructed believers to lower the gaze.

ultimately, no one is protected from sin regardless of how righteous they are but i'd like to think that the typical religious person would not even contemplate an illicit relationship with a colleague. i think the cases u have highlighted are a minority and u should not allow these cases to tar ur view of an entire profession. i know plenty of practicing muslim females who are doctors and alhamdulillah they have not foregone their islamic principles.

at the end of the day, if someone does not want to marry a person from x profession then that is entirely their choice and i appreciate that the average working hours of a doctor is in excess of the average working hours of most professions. if the two potentials can not agree on eg part time work etc then they clearly would not be suited. what i think those who are in disagreement with u and bro alshajr have a problem with is a blanket refusal to consider certain professionals.

i certainly had the perception that men are keen to marry females who have excelled educationally because they will impart similar values of educational achievement on their future children. perhaps that is not a view shared by the majority?

I am not advocating a refusal for certain professions. I respect certain professions including medicine as they can be used to provide healthcare to our women and children in a segregated manner. Also not living within ones means and getting heavily into debt knowing that the next X years will have to be worked fulltime and will take priority is a problem.

Having an intelligent spouse must be a good thing. Having a spouse who enjoys learning is a good thing. Having a high achieving spouse is a good thing. Having a pious spouse that teaches their children the meaning of life and about Islam and sets a good example is a very good thing.

[AR2011]

I do want to step on onenotesong's toes but i just wanted to respond to some of the points u made.

i think time and time again, the sisters have mentioned here that by and large, women put their families and relgion above their careers. there is this perception that if a female is pursuing a degree such as medicine etc that she must be an alpha female - concerned with amassing money, concerned with asserting her authority over her husband, concerned with pursuing her career to the detriment of her family. this is the kind of western feminist thinking but pious muslim women are largely in favour of putting their families and religion as their priority. u started ur post above by a comment that almost implied that the knowledge which a female doctor seeks is sought under the wrong intention.

the things that a woman can do if she is not working can be just as beneficial to society but so is treating ill people. if u have knowledge/skills in an area then its a waste to not utilise them.

time and time again, it has been stated that there are options to limit the hours one works even in high flying careers but we keep getting the same argument about family life and work balance.

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Who are our women taking as role models? Is it Fatima Zahra or contemporary western women?

i dont think fatima as would look down on a female doctor?

Quote

I am not advocating a refusal for certain professions. I respect certain professions including medicine as they can be used to provide healthcare to our women and children in a segregated manner. Also not living within ones means and getting heavily into debt knowing that the next X years will have to be worked fulltime and will take priority is a problem.

as a side point, things work differently in the us than here in the uk. as a university graduate, ur loan for ur studies comes from the government. it increases only with inflation and u do not have to start paying it back until u earn a certain minimum wage. if u r not working (eg taking a break to have kids) then ur repayments cease until u start working again and earning at the minimum threshold required for loan re-installments. if for example u complete ur degree but never enter employment, u will never have to repay ur student loan debt.

Edited by AR2011, 01 April 2012 - 07:10 PM.

[Alshajr]

AR2011, on 01 April 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

I do want to step on onenotesong's toes but i just wanted to respond to some of the points u made.

i think time and time again, the sisters have mentioned here that by and large, women put their families and relgion above their careers. there is this perception that if a female is pursuing a degree such as medicine etc that she must be an alpha female - concerned with amassing money, concerned with asserting her authority over her husband, concerned with pursuing her career to the detriment of her family. this is the kind of western feminist thinking but pious muslim women are largely in favour of putting their families and religion as their priority. u started ur post above by a comment that almost implied that the knowledge which a female doctor seeks is sought under the wrong intention.

the things that a woman can do if she is not working can be just as beneficial to society but so is treating ill people. if u have knowledge/skills in an area then its a waste to not utilise them.

time and time again, it has been stated that there are options to limit the hours one works even in high flying careers but we keep getting the same argument about family life and work balance.


i dont think fatima as would look down on a female doctor?


as a side point, things work differently in the us than here in the uk. as a university graduate, ur loan for ur studies comes from the government. it increases only with inflation and u do not have to start paying it back until u earn a certain minimum wage. if u r not working (eg taking a break to have kids) then ur repayments cease until u start working again and earning at the minimum threshold required for loan re-installments. if for example u complete ur degree but never enter employment, u will never have to repay ur student loan debt.

The first comment was an agreement with the poster whom I was replying to but with an added criteria and was not meant to imply that a female medic pursues her career for worldly reasons. The reason for a woman to pursue a medical career can be one of many.
Treating ill people is a honourable action. You have to study to gain skills and knowledge, they are not naturally bestowed and so yes if one gains them then to not use them when appropriate is a waste. Study skills have a number of originating factors.

Yes there are options to limit the hours like i stated in one of my first posts in the thread, but to be able to get to work part time is not that easy or immediate. These are things a brother/sister should consider when looking for a particular lifestyle.

I dont know if Fatima (sa) would look down on a female doctor either, probably not. Would she have embarked on the same career path with all of the compromises that adherents have to make? I would think that she had different priorities, but then all ppl are different.

I understand the loan structure differs in different countries. If a sister is working part time in the medical field then she will most likely enter the threshold for repayment, which for such a high sum will eat into her earnings if not eat into them entirely.

Anyhow, most things are possible if one puts their mind into it. Most challenges can be overcome if the intention is for the sake of Allah swt. I just feel that before making a committment to something in life, such as a demanding career, that it is done the right reasons whilst considering if it pleases Allah swt and if the person is in the appropriate circumstances to pursue it.
Allah swt is the granter of success regardless.

[Aly ReZa]

may be

[ImAli]

Trailblazer, on 01 April 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Where was I offended? Either you are projecting or you have to be downright foolish to assume I would get offended over a post on the internet. Anyways, you went off a tangent when you stated that unlike me, you do not concern yourself with the private lives of others. Firstly it wasn't private as the muslimahs in question were doing it in social gatherings. Secondly, sometimes you have to concern yourself with the affairs of others, and even more so, when this other person is your brother or sister or a person you care for. But this is besides the point. The issue at hand is that I have witnessed firsthand what goes on. This is what has made me conclude that unless the female (vice versa for a male) is steadfast and righteous, its not safe to work in environments where there is free mixing between the two genders.

IT seems you were at some wild social gatherings and worked with a crazy bunch. I never made it to the invited social gatherings due to always working late hours, working on holidays that everyone else wanted off (because those holidays meant nothing to me) and squeezing in as much over time as possible. I also found the best way to survive the work place is hello, good morning/evening, goodbye, it's a beautiful day isn't it, is this coffee fresh. Knowing about coworkers private lives is a recipe for disaster in the workplace. Anyway now I don't work because my children are small...but once they are older I will go back to work then straight home from work because I have a family that needs me. In fact most women I know who work with families do this. As for not allowing a woman to work unless she is steadfast and pious.....well maybe people should just avoid marrying the bad girls instead of locking them in the house.

Edited by ImAli, 02 April 2012 - 08:03 AM.

[wayfarer.]

ImAli, on 02 April 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

IT seems you were at some wild social gatherings and worked with a crazy bunch. I never made it to the invited social gatherings due to always working late hours, working on holidays that everyone else wanted off (because those holidays meant nothing to me) and squeezing in as much over time as possible.

If you were never successful in making it to the invited social gatherings, how did you reach this absolute certainty that you weren't working with a wild crazy bunch? Oh I get it, as long as the bunch you're working is sober at the workplace, they are a decent bunch. Of course.

Quote

I also found the best way to survive the work place is hello, good morning/evening, goodbye, it's a beautiful day isn't it, is this coffee fresh. Knowing about coworkers private lives is a recipe for disaster in the workplace.

Ignorance may be bliss when it comes to co-workers, but what if one of them was your brother or sister or someone you cared for? Yes, lets just put our heads in the sand like an ostrich and pretend the problems will go away on their own. Last time I checked, Amr bil maroof and nahi anil munkar are integral aspects of our religion.

Quote

Anyway now I don't work because my children are small...but once they are older I will go back to work then straight home from work because I have a family that needs me. In fact most women I know who work with families do this

Very good.

ImAli, on 02 April 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

. As for not allowing a woman to work unless she is steadfast and pious.....well maybe people should just avoid marrying the bad girls instead of locking them in the house.

You would be naive to think that its possible to know who the bad girls are before marriage when they are good at putting up a show of being good. There are some things in life which people may not have the desired level of control over and a spouse is one of them.

[ImAli]

wayfarer., on 04 April 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

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If you were never successful in making it to the invited social gatherings, how did you reach this absolute certainty that you weren't working with a wild crazy bunch? Oh I get it, as long as the bunch you're working is sober at the workplace, they are a decent bunch. Of course.
Ignorance may be bliss when it comes to co-workers, but what if one of them was your brother or sister or someone you cared for? Yes, lets just put our heads in the sand like an ostrich and pretend the problems will go away on their own. Last time I checked, Amr bil maroof and nahi anil munkar are integral aspects of our religion.

What do you mean "if you were successful in making it to the social gatherings" and how is it even relevant? Why is it so difficult to understand that I DON'T CARE what my coworkers do with their private lives outside of work. Last time I checked I am not the only one who expects my coworkers and myself to park everything outside of the door before entering work...that is the professional thing to do is it not? As for my brother and sister, yes it is a different story, they are family.

Quote

You would be naive to think that its possible to know who the bad girls are before marriage when they are good at putting up a show of being good. There are some things in life which people may not have the desired level of control over and a spouse is one of them.

I know quite a few men who are guilty of exactly the same

Aggghhhhh what a shame.

[wayfarer.]

*sigh*

broken record syndrome i'd say. My work in this thread is done, peace.

[Fink]

Depends...

If she looks like this


Or this: