94 replies to this topic

[Incognito]

For the person who has looked at both sides but cannot know which is true. One who hopes that there is a God and one who wants to believe in Him, but cannot.

What do we make of such a person?

[lover of Mola]

Proof of God can be understand by an example given by a pious person. Once an old lady was spinning with a wheel (Spinning wheel) and a thought came in her mind , that if that Spinning wheel cant be run without any help(power) , how can the whole universe is running by itself ,there must be someone ,who is running the whole universe.

Edited by lover of Mola, 09 January 2012 - 12:32 PM.

[kim.tinkerbell]

A person thats "searching" for answers. They need to "see" to "believe".

You cant always see things to believe their there. A service is intangable you cant touch but you can see its operating.

Cause and effect , goes back to who made what , we can argue that the big bang theory was the cause of god but who was the cause of the big bang. We can go on for ever but for every design theirs a creater. Therefor god does exist because his the creater. Theirs sonething bound man that can great all this.

Drawins theory ( he had a great theory) may be the answer for some that cant believe that gods the creater.

The athiest argument wins most of the time because you need prove for everything but its faith that makes a difference.

You need to see to believe - non believers
You need to believe to see- believers

[eThErEaL]

Such a person already believes in God but just wants to be certain or have a stronger belief.  And if he asks God for this then he will get it.

[iDevonian]

theyre either atheists or agnostics depending on how you define them.   "one who wants to believe in Him, but cannot.".  An unbeliever is surely not a theist no matter what their intentions.

[Incognito]

Is accepting Pascal's wager really a belief in God?

The conclusion of all theistic/atheistic arguments is not as clear as one may say. For an agnostic, it is often hard to see which side is on the truth since both make sense.

But they would like to accept God (who wouldnt?) but doing so they would be accepting something that they know they do not know, which leads to other implications.

Believing God is entirely different from saying you believe God. I find it hard to believe that one can truly believe God through only a means of rationality since it is not always very conclusive. Or at least it is never universally conclusive. So where does the belief come from?

[eThErEaL]

Incognito, on 10 January 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

So where does the belief come from?

Belief (Iman) does not come from reasoning.  It is a light or knowledge that God Himself puts in the heart. This is how iman is described.

[Atheist27]

lover of Mola, on 09 January 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Proof of God can be understand by an example given by a pious person. Once an old lady was spinning with a wheel (Spinning wheel) and a thought came in her mind , that if that Spinning wheel cant be run without any help(power) , how can the whole universe is running by itself ,there must be someone ,who is running the whole universe.

Thats how image god got birth in humanmind. That does not mean that there is someone. The natural reasoning is that universe itself is keeping itself running by its own power whitout any outside force that is beyond science. The question does Allah has plan or not, is not prooven by any theist anywhere in any agent or modern times. Allah, hmmm what can you say. Its a perfect name for absolute creator, but does IT really exist as Quran tells us. Or maybe in otherways that are not mentioned in Quran...

Well, nobody knows...

eThErEaL, on 10 January 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Belief (Iman) does not come from reasoning.  It is a light or knowledge that God Himself puts in the heart. This is how iman is described.

How iman in christianity is anyless good than iman in islam, if its only experienced by emotions. How come islam is suprerior to any religion if it does not have solid proof of plan of Allah?

When you claim it only light or knowledge in heart, you also put islam to same level whit all other religions.

[Dhulfikar]

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The natural reasoning is that universe itself is keeping itself running by its own power whitout any outside force that is beyond science.

And prove me this following sentence.

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Allah, hmmm what can you say. Its a perfect name for absolute creator, but does IT really exist as Quran tells us.

Yes He Exist, you can found Him in your Heart, He lives there. But you need to illuminate your hearth from Darkness to see Him.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 10 January 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[Atheist27]

Dhulfikar, on 10 January 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

And prove me this following sentence.

The force that is beyond science would be infinite and non-causal by its nature and therefore can not be called force at all. Force is something you measure. The proof I give you is that energy does not disappear, it changes its form. If there would be force that is keeping this on, then universe would had to loose its energy all the time, so it would be refilled by other time. This does not happend.

http://en.wikipedia....rgy_equivalence

Dhulfikar, on 10 January 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

And prove me this following sentence.


Yes He Exist, you can found Him in your Heart, He lives there. But you need to illuminate your hearth from Darkness to see Him.

How can I see Him? How does this illumination happends?

Edited by Atheist27, 10 January 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[Dhulfikar]

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The force that is beyond science would be infinite and non-causal by its nature

And prove me this following sentence.

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How can I see Him? How does this illumination happends?

You need first sincerity intention to want see Him, this is where God says that if individual is seeking Him, He will guide this individual. Illuminating your Hearth means that you take off negative attributes (Pride, Arrogance, passion, lust, Hate etc) that create darkness veils in your Hearth, after this you will observe the light that Allah send you to your hearth and you will understand knowledge in its real form.

If you are interested to know more about this, then there is good lecture about it, i can pm you if you want.

[Atheist27]

And prove me this following sentence.

Dhulfikar, on 10 January 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

And prove me this following sentence.


You need first sincerity intention to want see Him, this is where God says that if individual is seeking Him, He will guide this individual. Illuminating your Hearth means that you take off negative attributes (Pride, Arrogance, passion, lust, Hate etc) that create darkness veils in your Hearth, after this you will observe the light that Allah send you to your hearth and you will understand knowledge in its real form.

If you are interested to know more about this, then there is good lecture about it, i can pm you if you want.

In thouheed you believe Allah is infinite, and non-causal. Havent you already prooved that by yourself? I try talk by your own terms.

Logically  Infinite, non-causal god cant be Mover of the galaxy, because energy does not disappear, nor does it increase ,but it moves by its own laws, energy and mass.

Edited by Atheist27, 10 January 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Dhulfikar]

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In thouheed you believe Allah is infinite, and non-causal. Havent you already prooved that by yourself? I try talk by your own terms.

Angels are beyond science and they have force also, is this power infinite and non-causal?

Edited by Dhulfikar, 10 January 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[Atheist27]

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You need first sincerity intention to want see Him, this is where God says that if individual is seeking Him, He will guide this individual. Illuminating your Hearth means that you take off negative attributes (Pride, Arrogance, passion, lust, Hate etc) that create darkness veils in your Hearth, after this you will observe the light that Allah send you to your hearth and you will understand knowledge in its real form.

Its called self suggestion, when you say something to many times you start to believe its true, even, if would be craziest idea of all. That called mental illness, psychosis or confused. Basicly you say that if I start to look to belief then i end up believing what is already writen.

I dont see Pride, Arrogance, passion, lust, Hate as negative attributes of man, but all of those are defenders of justice as much as the chivalry or truthfullness are.

Dhulfikar, on 10 January 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Angels are beyond science and they have force also, is this power infinite and non-causal?

They are not beyond science if they really exist. You believe Muhammed (SAAS) saw angels and talked them. Therefore they are said to be been able to been sensed. Also Islam tolds that some people can hear Angels voice. Therefore that is something that is causal, and not beyond science, if they trully exist.

[Dhulfikar]

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Logically Infinite, non-causal god cant be Mover of the galaxy, because energy does not disappear, nor does it increase ,but it moves by its own laws, energy and mass.

That is not a logical thinking of such a God. Logically i can give you a possibility that all creation even Energy behave by His Will. If He says to X power to act then it act. Like for example Gravity, it acts by God command.

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Its called self suggestion, when you say something to many times you start to believe its true, even, if would be craziest idea of all. That called mental illness, psychosis or confused.

Then such a believe is false.

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Basicly you say that if I start to look to belief then i end up believing what is already writen.

No, what i say is that you will manifest what is truth.

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I dont see Pride, Arrogance, passion, lust, Hate as negative attributes of man, but all of those are defenders of justice as much as the chivalry or truthfullness are.

Then you speak false. These are all attributes that create negative thoughts and actions that are harm for itself and other.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 10 January 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Atheist27]

Dhulfikar, on 10 January 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

That is not a logical thinking of such a God. Logically i can give you a possibility that all creation even Energy behave by His Will. If He says to X power to act then it act. Like for example Gravity, it acts by God command.

Give me reasoning why all acts according to Infinite will if  you can.

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Then you speak false. These are all attributes that create negative thoughts and actions that are harm for itself and other

Pride is good when its coming from family, acchivents, wisdom and etc. Lust is good it makes you procreate. And so on. I dont speak falsely. Negative thought is not absolute term. For massmurder killing people gives positive vibes. For person who is having sex (whit his wife of course...) lust gives pleasure and purpousefullness in life, as it comes out as love and compassion.

I dont think I have spoke falsy, even from Islamic perspective.

[Dhulfikar]

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Give me reasoning why all acts according to Infinite will if you can.

I can't give you a reason for that, because your hearth can't understand it. Nor you can give scientific proof that these act by themself.

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Pride is good when its coming from family, acchivents, wisdom and etc. Lust is good it makes you procreate. And so on. I dont speak falsely. Negative thought is not absolute term. For massmurder killing people gives positive vibes.

Pride will create Arrogance. Arrogance will create abusive thought and actions. There are different Lust and i do not speak only Sexual lust. This same lust (Negative lust) can create disaster toward yourself and other people.

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For massmurder killing people gives positive vibes.

Yes lust of negative attribute. Which created disaster.

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For person who is having sex (whit his wife of course...) lust gives pleasure and purpousefullness in life, as it comes out as love and compassion.

There is nothing wrong having lust with his Wife. What i speak is the neagtive Lust.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 10 January 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Atheist27]

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I can't give you a reason for that, because your hearth can't understand it. Nor you can give scientific proof that these act by themself.

I just gave you one. Maybe you can try? Let the GOD see what we do when we are asked. About your comment. I could say same thing about you. That you are so confused you dont understand basic logic that I provided.

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What i speak is the neagtive Lust.

So basicly you are saying I am so evil I therefore I dont belive in Islam? When I am saying, there is no proof. Where is the proof? What a lame argument.

Edited by Atheist27, 10 January 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Dhulfikar]

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I just gave you one.

No you did not. I can ask you how you are sure that these do act by themself and not by some X will? Giving E=Mc^2 does not answer to the question, because such a equation only describe the reality we observe throught definition of Science.

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So basicly you are saying I am so evil I therefore I dont belive in Islam? When I am saying, there is no proof. Where is the proof?

No, i say that your heart can't understand particular knowledge.

[Atheist27]

Dhulfikar, on 10 January 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

No you did not. I can ask you how you are sure that these do act by themself and not by some X will? Giving E=Mc^2 does not answer to the question, because such a equation only describe the reality we observe throught definition of Science.


No, i say that your heart can't understand particular knowledge.

You see my heart? Why dont you try.

Like said before X dont have any effect to universe prooven by e=mc2.

Edited by Atheist27, 10 January 2012 - 01:39 PM.

[Dhulfikar]

Atheist27, on 10 January 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

You see my heart? Why dont you try.

Yes i have observed throught your speech, and with respect i do not share such a knowledge for such a people. I gave you very good advice, work for it, if you are interested to know such a knowledge that gives you evidence for Allah.

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Like said before X dont have any effect to universe prooven by e=mc2.

I don't want to repeat myself.

Edited by Dhulfikar, 10 January 2012 - 01:43 PM.

[Atheist27]

You dont share that knowledge? I cant find any respect from that.



edit. You sound like jewish kabbalist who concieled the truth when asked.

I wonder what kind of holy man you praise yourself. Carrying universal truths that cant be spoken out loud. I find it very arrogant.

Edited by Atheist27, 10 January 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[Dhulfikar]

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You dont share that knowledge? I cant find any respect from that.

Of course you cant.

[Atheist27]

Dhulfikar, on 10 January 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Of course you cant.

I choose my words to you carefully. By my own freewill. Its not of course,  but obviously.

[eThErEaL]

Atheist27, on 10 January 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

How iman in christianity is anyless good than iman in islam, if its only experienced by emotions. How come islam is suprerior to any religion if it does not have solid proof of plan of Allah?

When you claim it only light or knowledge in heart, you also put islam to same level whit all other religions.

the Prophet defined iman the following way, not I. He said that it is a knowledge God puts in the heart, action with the limbs, and a saying on the tongue.n the following way, not me.

Now the heart, contrary to what you imagine, is not the seat of emotion but the seat of divine sacred knowledge (i.e. knowledge of the truth).  Secondly true representatives of Christianity don't believe in emotional faith.  take a look at St. Anselm's understanding of "belief" (iman):  

‎"I acknowledge, Lord, and I give thanks that you have created your image in me, so that I may remember you, think of you, love you. But this image is so obliterated and worn away by wickedness, it is so obscured by the smoke of sins, that it cannot do what it was created to do, unless you renew and reform it. I am not attempting, O Lord, to penetrate your loftiness, for I cannot begin to match my understanding with it, but I desire in some measure to understand your truth, which my heart believes and loves. For I do not seek to understand in order that I may believe, but I believe in order to understand. For this too I believe, that unless I believe, I shall not understand."

Edited by eThErEaL, 11 January 2012 - 12:12 PM.