78 replies to this topic

[moussadastgheib]

white stone, on 25 December 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

Homosexuality is a natural process. Nobody can be forced to be a homosexual. For example a wet dream cannot be stopped at any cost. When it happens, it happens. I want to know that how a homosexual person should lead his life? Because a homosexual would have the same feelings when he sees a man of his choice, like a girl. I want to know what does Islam says about a person who's sexual orientation is "Gay" i.e he likes, loves men. Its not necessary that every homosexual is a sex freak.

Brothers and sisters please help me to resolve my query in the light of Ahadees of Ahlebait (a.s)

Homosexuals will all burn in hell
Allah created us so man will love women
not man and man

[Abo_Al7ur]

Well... For who want to defent homosexuality I recommend them to convet to salafis because it is known in salafi world that homosexuality is very popular... we have many examples for these days:

Shaikh Al-Aroor: He had homosexual activity in the army and he got banned in the army and he admit.
Shaikh Dimasqya: He had homosexual activity in Al-Azhar school and he got banned and he admit also.
Saudi prince: Saudi prince in UK killed his boyfriend... (New kind fairy tale story)
Shaik Aith Al-Qirny: He had also homosexual relationships.

and the list is being bigger.

And I didn't mentions that Saudi boys in Riadh and Jeddah many of them homosexuals. They are proud to have sexual relationships with boys.

So I recommend all the people who want to defend homosexuality and want to say it is normal... convert to salafi, please.

[safaa5196]

homosexuality is strictly forbidden in islam because you are not following the natural way of things. because as humanswe are made a certain way to be able to perform a certain way. .. throughout history the roles of men have always been to protect and provide for the family/females and kids whereas the roles of the females have always been to nurture and make the house a home. this is the natural way of defining a family. in shia islam  we have imam ali, his wife fatima and their children to exemplify what nature's definition of a family is. in all of our actions we should aspire to be like them have a way of thinking similar to their's and a family like them. they are your guide and map to heaven dont throw out this god send of a map.

[meinhoonshia]

Assalam Alaykum, Tohfa Ya Ali Madad.


muslim homosexuals should watch this video...   <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.c...ed/c3rTIEIOv5E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>






may Allah guide u(homosexuals) to the right path.

[alimohamad40]

kingpomba, on 27 December 2011 - 02:55 AM, said:

Are you seriously comparing homosexuality to ... rape?

The last three things are offenses inflicted by one person onto another against their will and this is quiet clearly wrong.

Homosexuals don't inflict their homosexuality onto others against their will. It's quite clearly a different belief.

Okay lets not use the rape example because they are not consentual  but i can give you an identical example to homosexuality and i dare you to condone it with the same logic that you use to condone homosexuality


incest ,,, both parties in this crime are consenting adults yet its still a crime all over the world

or even beastiality  same thing the smart animals like dogs can consent  and then in few years we will hear campains to allow animal marriage because jack wants to marry his dog or johns aunty is  a cat demanding inheritance

[shiaaliibrahim]

Bismillah

Homosexuals do inflict homosexuality on non consenting children all the time.  Research shows that most males that become homosexual were introduced as a child or teenager by an adult.  Rarely does someone wake up and say " I think I am going to pass on women, I am going to make it with a man".  I think prison life tells us all we need to know about Homosexual practices - it's about the corruption of power and control over weaker individuals.  It is a life style of oppressors.  Many people that join the US Army are latent homosexuals using the life of death and destruction to carry out their fantasies.  Homosexuality is embedded in western military culture - it is one of the reasons they can so easily go to war against others.

[JawzofDETH]

kingpomba, on 27 December 2011 - 02:55 AM, said:

The last three things are offenses inflicted by one person onto another against their will and this is quiet clearly wrong.

Pedophelia may not be against the will of the minor. It's still wrong, not unlike homosexuality.

[Ricky-Dee]

God made Adam & Eve

not Adam & Steve

[Aryana]

Incest is a difficult one as although both parties are consenting adults, the children of such unions who may be born with genetic defects certainly are not. Incest has also been called the only universal taboo as it became clear to human societies pretty early on that exogamic alliances maintained healthier populations than endogamic ones. Just look at the plethora of genetic defects found in the Ashekenazi Jewish community.

As for homosexuality it certainly is natural and is widely observed in the animal kingdom. Evolutionarily speaking, societies engaged in same-sex activity in order to strengthen same-sex alliances in activities such as hunting and co-operative defense for males or co-operative child-rearing for females. Not that its necessary, but that's how it has worked historically. Exclusive or romantic homosexuality is still a puzzle; although the co-existence of hetero and homosexual acts may have been beneficial in some societies, absolutely none have ever practiced exclusive homosexuality. I agree with some that posit that the division and labeling of homosexual vs heterosexual as distinctive identities is a modern phenomenon, due to our obsession with binary opposites. So all these arguments that homosexuality is forbidden because it's a 'sin against nature' or because its detrimental to society are absolutely wrong. Truth is, we actual don't have any scientific, historical, evolutionary or anthropological evidence to back up its prohibition.

None of that however, negates the fact that homosexual acts, NOT homosexuality itself (how on earth would a God hold a sexual attraction you have no control over against you?) are sinful in Islam. It just means that so far, all we have is that God says so. So maybe as muslims we should just hold up our hands and accept that we believe God knows best, even though the reason may not be yet clear to us, instead of using false analogies and misrepresenting scientific data.

I personally think being born with homosexual inclinations is a test. I've always been strongly attracted to the same sex, and always will be. Since reverting back to Islam, every day has been a constant struggle and a lesson in self-discipline. I'm lucky in enough to also be attracted to the opposite sex, so thank God at least I can have a semblance of a normal life. Many muslims who are exclusively attracted to the same sex aren't as lucky.

I wonder how the people so quick to judge others would feel if they were faced with a lifetime of celibacy. I've met pious, devout and exemplary muslims who have put all their faith in God and accepted this fate. Who have such iman that they have put aside all hope of ever being sexually satisfied in this lifetime. Yet instead of being helped and supported by their communities, they are called unnatural, cast out and ostracized, all for sexual inclinations that they make clear THEY DO NOT WANT TO ACT UPON! How can people who go through so much hardship all for the love of God not be incredibly dear to him?

This is heart-breaking. As a community, it's our duty to recognize and support people who struggle with this, instead of parroting bigoted views that only serve to further demonize those among us that are struggling and in need of help and guidance, leading many to leave Islam altogether. I'm not advocating that they have coming out parties or that there inclinations be a cause for celebration, but that if we are ever put in a position where someone comes to us desperate and in need of support we show kindness and understanding for what is going to be for them an incredibly difficult time.

[Pascal]

JawzofDETH, on 29 April 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Pedophelia may not be against the will of the minor. It's still wrong, not unlike homosexuality.

It is against they're will, they're not able to fully will for it or consent. Their mind is not fully capable of willing.

They're also very vunerable and easily manipulated, almost all the time, the child has been manipulated into thinking its alright or been pushed into it out of sheer terorr.

If you're trying to argue there are all these children out there who actually wanted to be molested, you are a disgusting human being.

I hope you realise no child wants this.

[alimohamad40]

Aryana, on 29 April 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

Incest is a difficult one as although both parties are consenting adults, the children of such unions who may be born with genetic defects certainly are not. Incest has also been called the only universal taboo as it became clear to human societies pretty early on that exogamic alliances maintained healthier populations than endogamic ones. Just look at the plethora of genetic defects found in the Ashekenazi Jewish community.

your argument about genetic defects is not any stronger than the arguments that we give about AIDS  (GRIDS) Gay Related Immune Defiecincy Syndrome

gays and thier supporters will be so quick to argue that , use protection , adopt kids  ,,,, Cant incest criminals also use protection and adopt kids???

arnt they both consenting adults

being gay is not any nicer that comitting the crime of incest

having a gay inclination is some thing that is to a certain level in every man but that feeling will either grow or diminish depending on what you feed yourself

if you hate sin and knwo very well thats its one of the ugliest sins to commit sodomy then you will start to puke at the idea ,,,  thats hwo i feel i would puke and get sick in the stomach of the idea of a man having sex with another man just the same way i would puke of hearing about a man having sex with his sister or mother think about it .


if you have some femenine feelings you dont need to lie to yourself and say " i am a female" because you are not you are a male



as for the natural argument what does natural mean ?
that people do it all the time ???

murder is also natural then

kingpomba, on 30 April 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

It is against they're will, they're not able to fully will for it or consent. Their mind is not fully capable of willing.

They're also very vunerable and easily manipulated, almost all the time, the child has been manipulated into thinking its alright or been pushed into it out of sheer terorr.

If you're trying to argue there are all these children out there who actually wanted to be molested, you are a disgusting human being.

I hope you realise no child wants this.

brother jawzofdeth also argues that  studies proved a huge percentage of gays were turned gayism and introduced to it at a yougn age by being abused against thier consent


and i todl you that incest is not against the consent of the adults so do you dare condone incest because it holds exactly the same arguments as the homosexuality

1) incest consenting adults

2) gays conseting adults

3) incest harmful if you breed

4) gays is a cutting off the generations and is  harmful if you commit the ugly act as you have a huge possibility of contracting HIV GRIDS .   Gays argue against by saying use protection and adopt kids

5) incest has the harms of teh genetic diseases and they can also argue the exact same gay argument " use protection and adopt kids"
.

[Aryana]

Aryana, on 29 April 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

Incest is a difficult one as although both parties are consenting adults, the children of such unions who may be born with genetic defects certainly are not. Incest has also been called the only universal taboo as it became clear to human societies pretty early on that exogamic alliances maintained healthier populations than endogamic ones. Just look at the plethora of genetic defects found in the Ashekenazi Jewish community.

As for homosexuality it certainly is natural and is widely observed in the animal kingdom. Evolutionarily speaking, societies engaged in same-sex activity in order to strengthen same-sex alliances in activities such as hunting and co-operative defense for males or co-operative child-rearing for females. Not that its necessary, but that's how it has worked historically. Exclusive or romantic homosexuality is still a puzzle; although the co-existence of hetero and homosexual acts may have been beneficial in some societies, absolutely none have ever practiced exclusive homosexuality. I agree with some that posit that the division and labeling of homosexual vs heterosexual as distinctive identities is a modern phenomenon, due to our obsession with binary opposites. So all these arguments that homosexuality is forbidden because it's a 'sin against nature' or because its detrimental to society are absolutely wrong. Truth is, we actual don't have any scientific, historical, evolutionary or anthropological evidence to back up its prohibition.

None of that however, negates the fact that homosexual acts, NOT homosexuality itself (how on earth would a God hold a sexual attraction you have no control over against you?) are sinful in Islam. It just means that so far, all we have is that God says so. So maybe as muslims we should just hold up our hands and accept that we believe God knows best, even though the reason may not be yet clear to us, instead of using false analogies and misrepresenting scientific data.

I personally think being born with homosexual inclinations is a test. I've always been strongly attracted to the same sex, and always will be. Since reverting back to Islam, every day has been a constant struggle and a lesson in self-discipline. I'm lucky in enough to also be attracted to the opposite sex, so thank God at least I can have a semblance of a normal life. Many muslims who are exclusively attracted to the same sex aren't as lucky.

I wonder how the people so quick to judge others would feel if they were faced with a lifetime of celibacy. I've met pious, devout and exemplary muslims who have put all their faith in God and accepted this fate. Who have such iman that they have put aside all hope of ever being sexually satisfied in this lifetime. Yet instead of being helped and supported by their communities, they are called unnatural, cast out and ostracized, all for sexual inclinations that they make clear THEY DO NOT WANT TO ACT UPON! How can people who go through so much hardship all for the love of God not be incredibly dear to him?

This is heart-breaking. As a community, it's our duty to recognize and support people who struggle with this, instead of parroting bigoted views that only serve to further demonize those among us that are struggling and in need of help and guidance, leading many to leave Islam altogether. I'm not advocating that they have coming out parties or that there inclinations be a cause for celebration, but that if we are ever put in a position where someone comes to us desperate and in need of support we show kindness and understanding for what is going to be for them an incredibly difficult time.

Just read my post back and realised I hadn't even mentioned the lack of romance and emotional intimacy these people will have to struggle with for the rest of their lives.

[Shia_Debater]

Aryana, on 30 April 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Just read my post back and realised I hadn't even mentioned the lack of romance and emotional intimacy these people will have to struggle with for the rest of their lives.

Shia_Debater, on 27 December 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

and as for the denying and being lonely part, there are many trials different people go through (in my opinion), for example lets say I want to get married all my life and no one wants to marry me (whether it be permanent marriage or temporary [Mutah]), then I too, even though I am straight, would not be able to act on my desires,and would be "lonely" all my life as all the other ways of acting on my desires would be haram i.e. committing sex outside of marraige, masturbation etc..

however the reason why I personally wouldnt see it as being lonely, is because I would acknowledge that when I die I would get a reward in return for this "loneliness" that I went through, sure I may not have asked for it, however God knows better than us, I am sure that if you did believe in heaven and hell, and you were either straight or gay but never managed to get a partner (either due to someone not wanting to marry you [straight] or it being haram [gay]) and you acknowledged that God would reward you with something massive in return, then even if you did mind, after you died and got that massive reward you would be happy.

Our 5th Imam, Imam al-Baqir says that if man knew the reward he got for going through difficulties and hardships he would cut himself into small pieces.

Or in this case instead of the lonely part, you could apply it to the lack of intimacy and romance part.

[Hassan_S]

I can imagine how hard it must be and it's easier said than done, however I would like to contribute.

Angels have intellect and no emotion, animals have emotion and no intellect.

So what's special about the human being? He has both!

If your intellect overtakes your emotion then you become higher than the angels, and if your emotion overtakes your intellect then you become lower than the animals.

And Imam Hussain a.s showed us beautifully how it is done in Karbala. Hence the saying "Every day is Ashura, Every land is Karbala"

Have you ever seen pain like that of Hussain a.s?

Look at Imam Hussain a.s and the person in question will know what to do

If one understands his worth as a human being and the gift that Allah swt has given us, many difficulties will be over come Inshallah

[JawzofDETH]

kingpomba, on 30 April 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

It is against they're will, they're not able to fully will for it or consent. Their mind is not fully capable of willing.

They're also very vunerable and easily manipulated, almost all the time, the child has been manipulated into thinking its alright or been pushed into it out of sheer terorr.

If you're trying to argue there are all these children out there who actually wanted to be molested, you are a disgusting human being.

I hope you realise no child wants this.

Are you able to comprehend simple english?
As far as I'm concerned your reply was an obvious copout due to not being able to reply to the rebuttal directly.
Weak.

Edited by JawzofDETH, 02 May 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[MysticKnight]

alimohamad40, on 30 April 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

having a gay inclination is some thing that is to a certain level in every man but that feeling will either grow or diminish depending on what you feed yourself

What are you on about here man? You can't be serious. Every man has a certain gay inclination. To be honest, this is the first time hearing it. Why do you think this? What's your proof?

Quote

if you hate sin and knwo very well thats its one of the ugliest sins to commit sodomy then you will start to puke at the idea ,,,  thats hwo i feel i would puke and get sick in the stomach of the idea of a man having sex with another man just the same way i would puke of hearing about a man having sex with his sister or mother think about it .

I would say most of feel disgusted at both incest and homosexuality, but why is this the case? Is it simply because we feel it's wrong, or is it more to do with "Being attracted to my mom/sister feels disgusting to me, and therefore I am disgusted at the idea of it in general....". In the same way, we feel disgusted with the idea of being attracted to same gender, so we are disgusted by homosexuality all together.

Since it feels wrong FOR US TO DO, we feel it's wrong for others. Right? But what if a sister and brother were attracted to each other? Is it their fault? Should we hate them for it? We are disgusted at it because it feels wrong for us to do. It feels very disgusting and just wrong for us to do. But we have that sense that makes us feel that way for ourselves.

We are attracted to opposite gender - so - we naturally are disgusted by the idea of being attracted to same gender. We think about it - and it feels wrong for us to be attracted to same gender. That's because it is wrong for us. But is it wrong for every single person?

When someone is mentally ill, and does some wrong things, would you hold him to account by the same standard as a sane person?

Something I also noticed, is that guys tend to find man to man disgusting, but woman to woman (lesbianism) not just "ok" but "hot". Why is that?  It's because when it comes to guys, guys relate it to themselves and are disgusted by the idea. Yet being attracted to women is found "hot", even if it's another women. (I'm not talking about it being felt right or wrong, I'm talking about being disgusted by it.)

This sort of supports the possibility I mentioned, that it's really how we feel about ourselves with each of these, which are wrong and disgusting by our senses. But is it universal? We are use to the idea that everything that is wrong for us to do is wrong for others. This how we think. But is it decisive proof?

[alimohamad40]

Salaam
Mystic
What differentiates the males from females is certain levels of chemicals right?
Some males are more feminine than others. This means all males could have a certain level of feminine attributes. If the nurish it then it will flourish and hence the button line is the choice not the external factors.

Regarding moral relativism the incest was a good example . I believe in absolute moralism not relative. All humans have attraction to the opposite gender so there is nothing instinctive that I know of which would repal humans from incest apart from the self indoctrination please correct this if am wrong.
So whoever is committs incest or sodomy is to blame for what they fed themselves which lead to Thier state
We can also argue that bad people are diseased and mislead by god so why blame them? It's because they obtained the disease due to bad actions and god mislead them due to bad actions like the pride of Satan or selfishness or jealousy

[Aryana]

MysticKnight, on 02 May 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

What are you on about here man? You can't be serious. Every man has a certain gay inclination. To be honest, this is the first time hearing it. Why do you think this? What's your proof?

Ever heard of the Kinsey Scale?

[ZaqiYumani]

Salam ...

sorry if im repeating any thisg ... i did not see any one mention Iran allow a man to be a women, and sceintificley, if you do not have a Y chromozone i think it is... then your dna say your a women.

Allah says in Al Quran, I can give you a son or a daughter, or somthing thats neither a somn or a daughter.

Still ignorent people will never under stand, the take a chicken and for 100.000nz of years peaple use to clean it, coock it and eat it. Today you make briyani korma kabab ect ect... so if the meet go in you you accept change? yet the poor person who has to live with his self (meat) is not allowed to be changed?

never mind, Iyatollah Khomeeni give fatwa to allow sex change, so Iran is the only country in the world to re issue a birth citificate aftersex change.

[covertiman]

I have a question regarding the nature vs. nurtur debate in the homosexual paradigm from an Islamic perspective. If homosexuality were natural and innate, meaning that is something which cannot be control, then it would not be haram? Islamic teachings clearly denounce homosexuality but if it were natural and apparent upon birth then how can Allah swt punish someone for an urge that he gave them. Thus, can we say that Islam implies that homosexuality is not innate?

[Abu Abdullaah]

white stone, on 25 December 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

Homosexuality is a natural process. Nobody can be forced to be a homosexual. For example a wet dream cannot be stopped at any cost. When it happens, it happens. I want to know that how a homosexual person should lead his life? Because a homosexual would have the same feelings when he sees a man of his choice, like a girl. I want to know what does Islam says about a person who's sexual orientation is "Gay" i.e he likes, loves men. Its not necessary that every homosexual is a sex freak.

Brothers and sisters please help me to resolve my query in the light of Ahadees of Ahlebait (a.s)

Brother, if you ever want to go to a religion that has leaders that are inclined to other men/boys, then the other sect is a pretty good choice.

As far as Shee'ahs, our view is clear, do mut'ah with women and enjoy. The last thing that needs to be done is homosexuality. Heck, if I knew my brother in Islaam was going the other way, I would try to hook him up with a woman, in mut'ah for a couple of hours, to set him straight. That's called true amr bil ma'roof and nahy an al-munkar. Nothing wrong with it. If he enjoys her, then he could become straight again. Wallaahu 'Alam

Assalaamu 'Alaykum,
Aboo 'Abd Allaah

[Shia987]

is it possible for a homosexual person to have love towards the opposite gender?

by this i do not mean lustful urges. what i mean is that when you get married you slowly grow an attatchment to your wife. you care for her and love her. can a homosexual person love the opposite gender? the closest kind of "love" i can think of to this is the love towards a family member

[Al-Mufeed]

What a complete waste of time.

Any one who thinks homosexuality is acceptable in Islam - isnt even a muslim.


I should put this thread in to the trash pit ....

[JabalAmel]

,

what do you think about this hadtih from Imam Jafar (a.)?




Is this true?

[Jungie]

So its impossible to be born a homo?