78 replies to this topic

[white stone]

Homosexuality is a natural process. Nobody can be forced to be a homosexual. For example a wet dream cannot be stopped at any cost. When it happens, it happens. I want to know that how a homosexual person should lead his life? Because a homosexual would have the same feelings when he sees a man of his choice, like a girl. I want to know what does Islam says about a person who's sexual orientation is "Gay" i.e he likes, loves men. Its not necessary that every homosexual is a sex freak.

Brothers and sisters please help me to resolve my query in the light of Ahadees of Ahlebait (a.s)

[mAlhakim]

Even if homosexuality is a "natural process", as so many corrupt people in the west say it is, does that make it OK?

Lets expand the theory a little - if people are "born" as homosexuals, people are also born as paedophiles, murderers, rapists - does that mean paedophilia, murdering and raping is OK?

If so, then throw out the rule book, and let anyone do whatever they want.

Being homosexual itself is not a sin in Islam, but acting on those urges is a sin, just like how having sex outside marriage is.

Imam Amir ul Mu’mineen Ali [a] said: “If man perceived his death and its speed towards him, he would certainly detest the world and its hopes.”

The Holy Prophet [s] said: “After myself, I fear of three things for my Ummah: misguidance after knowledge, misleading temptations, and the lust of the stomach and the privy parts.”

[asphyxiated]

Homosexuality, like heterosexuality and bisexuality, is an act. To define one's entire ontological status--one's entire being in this world--around sexual acts is a disservice to yourself and mankind in general. Sexual activity is something humans partake in; there are studies that show "gay" men routinely have sex with women, before and after their first homosexual experience. Sexuality is one part of who we are; labeling yourself a homosexual or a heterosexual is quite odd. It is odd that people are willing to define their entire identity, ideology, political outlook, social status, dress code and personal beliefs around a sexual act they prefer.

In the West, I would consider the majority of women to be "bisexual," as per anecdotal and other forms of evidence. In past cultures people routinely had sex with both genders without labeling themselves one way or another.

My point is that, while I am sure people have certain inclinations, our identities as human beings are far too complex to be labeled in sexual terms. These are acts. Treat them as such. The Islamic perspective on this is pretty clear. Islam also considers these to be acts and doesn't go about defining human beings on their preference for one act over the other.

[Shia_Debater]

Homosexuality is haraam and is a greater sin

If you want to see the severity of it, read through this: http://www.al-islam....complete/16.htm

Just like what bro mAlhakim said, acting on the desire in a prohibited way [i.e. sodomy, zina, masturbation etc.] is a sin, as long as you refrain from doing the sins Allah (swt) wont punish someone for having feelings towards their own gender, though if someone does I highly advise they seek whatever help they can (if there is such thing) to get rid of feelings towards same gender (no disrespect intended to anyone) and if there isnt anyway to get rid of those feelings, then the person should try to not think about it, and remember that Allah (swt) will insha'Allah grant them a big reward if they abstain from haraam acts.

[LostMuslim]

white stone, on 25 December 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

Homosexuality is a natural process. Nobody can be forced to be a homosexual. For example a wet dream cannot be stopped at any cost. When it happens, it happens. I want to know that how a homosexual person should lead his life? Because a homosexual would have the same feelings when he sees a man of his choice, like a girl. I want to know what does Islam says about a person who's sexual orientation is "Gay" i.e he likes, loves men. Its not necessary that every homosexual is a sex freak.

Brothers and sisters please help me to resolve my query in the light of Ahadees of Ahlebait (a.s)

Sallam Alykum,

False, homosexuality could be forced upon people. In my anthropology class we learned that certain tribes would practice homosexuality to a certain degree because this is what they believed would prolong their life so young adults woulds be encouraged to do certain acts. Culture can shape one to be a homosexual because this would be the "norm" of that society. Remember that in Islam, everyone is born pure but their upbringing is what changes them. Thus in Islam we do not believe that homosexuality is something you are born with, rather it is a trait picked up from others within your culture/family/group.

[haniyeh]

I think Quran and hadith are clear regarding homosexuality being haraam. If one feels inclined towards their own gender, this is their jihad or struggle for the right way. I know such a statement may seem harsh or intolerant, but remember Allah subhanAllah wa'tala knows best. I hate to simply respond back with a statement that homosexuality is haraam and not offer any help. Remember that dua is the weapon of the believer... Allah SWT tells us that 1) He will test us, which can only grant us greater reward if we act appropiately, and 2) to call on Him for help. MasAllah you brought up a topic that I don't believe is often mentioned.

[Pascal]

mAlhakim, on 26 December 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

Lets expand the theory a little - if people are "born" as homosexuals, people are also born as paedophiles, murderers, rapists - does that mean paedophilia, murdering and raping is OK?

Are you seriously comparing homosexuality to ... rape?

The last three things are offenses inflicted by one person onto another against their will and this is quiet clearly wrong.

Homosexuals don't inflict their homosexuality onto others against their will. It's quite clearly a different belief.

The last three are crimes against other unwilling people and are quite clearly wrong, independant of a lot of belief systems. These crimes against other unwilling people who have been deprived of their liberty to act how they like personally should be punished by the state.

However, wheres the crime in someone being homosexual against no choice of their own? They don't hurt other people with it. They don't inflict things unto other people unwillingly, its carried out between adults who know whats going on and consent. Where’s the obvious crime? Is this really as bad as depriving someone else of their liberty and inflicting adverse conditions onto them against their will? Quite clearly not.

Even the people who say "you have no choice" realise its partially nature and partially nuture (if you don't know what this means google nature vs nurture). It's partially genetics and other unchangeable things like that but its also environment. It's not totally determined just by birth but you still can't choose it either.

If i have genes that predispose me to alcoholism but grow up in a society where no alcohol is present or frowned upon, what are the chances i'll become an alcoholic?

mAlhakim, on 26 December 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

Being homosexual itself is not a sin in Islam, but acting on those urges is a sin, just like how having sex outside marriage is.

So...its alright to like the same sex..long as you don't do anything, ever? You're condemned to loneliness. It seems like an exquisite torture to say, oh, its fine to be homosexual but just don't act homosexual. How can such a person lead a fulfilling life at all then? They can never have a partner or a relationship. It seems like torture to me. Imagine if i told you, oh its fine to like the opposite sex but you are totally forbidden to ever have a relationship with them, how would you feel?

asphyxiated, on 26 December 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:

there are studies that show "gay" men routinely have sex with women, before and after their first homosexual experience.

This seems highly doubtful. If you're totally homosexual you have no attraction to the opposite sex (in this case women), how could you perform any kind of sexual act with them willingly if you're not at all attracted to them? It might even be a little repulsive to them, like having sex with someone of the same sex is to you.

I'd also like to see these studies, so please link them to back up your assertions.

asphyxiated, on 26 December 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:

Sexuality is one part of who we are; labeling yourself a homosexual or a heterosexual is quite odd. It is odd that people are willing to define their entire identity, ideology, political outlook, social status, dress code and personal beliefs around a sexual act they prefer.

Do you know any homosexual people at all? None of the ones i know let their sexual orientation totally take over and guide their "ideology" "politics" "social status" or "dress code".

Is there suddenly a secret homosexual dress code i don't know about? Do they not wear clothes that other people wear? Once someone discovers they're gay do they stop wearing jeans and switch to slacks?

You can't even determine your social status by in large so i don't know what you mean there.

Politics, again, if you're gay do you suddenly become a fiscal conservative? Do you suddenly think war is good or public healthcare (socialised medicine as its called with derision) is bad? Extremely doubtful.

The_Shia_Terminator, on 26 December 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:

though if someone does I highly advise they seek whatever help they can (if there is such thing) to get rid of feelings towards same gender (no disrespect intended to anyone) and if there isnt anyway to get rid of those feelings, then the person should try to not think about it, and remember that Allah (swt) will insha'Allah grant them a big reward if they abstain from haraam acts.

So, you're suggesting they "get help" like its a disease, what help exactly do you suggest if this is their natural preference that they were born with...really i'm interested in what you think would help. Unless you're into brainwashing. So, its a sickness or mental illness that needs to be cured? This is a view of 18th/19th century psychology that has long since been left behind, just like the diagnosis of females displaying any sexuality at all as some kind of mental illness or "female hysteria" (it's on wikipedia). We've moved on from many such obviously flawed diagnoses.

Again, it also seems like it would be hell to try to deny and ignore who you are and be lonely for the rest of your life.

LostMuslim, on 26 December 2011 - 09:53 PM, said:

False, homosexuality could be forced upon people. In my anthropology class we learned that certain tribes would practice homosexuality to a certain degree because this is what they believed would prolong their life so young adults woulds be encouraged to do certain acts. Culture can shape one to be a homosexual because this would be the "norm" of that society. Remember that in Islam, everyone is born pure but their upbringing is what changes them. Thus in Islam we do not believe that homosexuality is something you are born with, rather it is a trait picked up from others within your culture/family/group.

I think you're failing to make the distinction between..tribal societies and the modern world. They're quite clearly different in so so many ways.

As for encouraging the young adults to perform oral sex, how do you know that they actually felt homosexual or attracted to other men? Maybe it was just something they felt they had to do?

You can believe what you like but it doesn't necessarily make it true. I can believe that the moon is shaped like a triangle but this doesn't change nature and whats real, the moon doesn't spontaneously transform into a triangle.

The best we can do is look towards evidence and facts. Even if we find out its chosen or caused unwillingly, does it somehow make it more ok to discriminate against a person based on their private beliefs and acts that don't have much of an effect on you?

[baradar_jackson]

[Edited]

Edited by inshaAllah, 27 December 2011 - 10:50 AM.
Slandering a member again. Suspended for 10 days. If you repeat the offense in the future, you may be permanently banned.

[Saviour]

Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam, in other words it is Haraam.

Whether or not people are born gay and it's a natural occurrence is debatable. For example one could say, how could you be born gay as reproduction is completely dependant on two individuals of different sex but of the same species, so therefore it would be un-beneficial for Humans to be born gay as this could compromise the chance of another generation; inevitably causing our species into extinction. But however one could argue, this is not a rare occurrence at all and even happens to individuals belonging to another species.

Then again, one could argue back saying that Human beings sexuality is dependant on an individuals up bringing and perhaps even some may go far enough to say it depends also upon the genes. But both are for another time. Simply Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam. Regarding usage of Quranic sources and Hadiths, the brother mAlhakim as provided some very nice ones.

[Shia_Debater]

kingpomba, on 27 December 2011 - 02:55 AM, said:

So, you're suggesting they "get help" like its a disease, what help exactly do you suggest if this is their natural preference that they were born with...really i'm interested in what you think would help. Unless you're into brainwashing. So, its a sickness or mental illness that needs to be cured? This is a view of 18th/19th century psychology that has long since been left behind, just like the diagnosis of females displaying any sexuality at all as some kind of mental illness or "female hysteria" (it's on wikipedia). We've moved on from many such obviously flawed diagnoses.

I don't have any knowledge on this topic, and that is why I said get help if there even is such thing and that is also why I added on in brackets no offence intended to anyone, I didn't mean to come across as calling it a disease, sorry if I caused offence.

[Shia_Debater]

and as for the denying and being lonely part, there are many trials different people go through (in my opinion), for example lets say I want to get married all my life and no one wants to marry me (whether it be permanent marriage or temporary [Mutah]), then I too, even though I am straight, would not be able to act on my desires,and would be "lonely" all my life as all the other ways of acting on my desires would be haram i.e. committing sex outside of marraige, masturbation etc..

however the reason why I personally wouldnt see it as being lonely, is because I would acknowledge that when I die I would get a reward in return for this "loneliness" that I went through, sure I may not have asked for it, however God knows better than us, I am sure that if you did believe in heaven and hell, and you were either straight or gay but never managed to get a partner (either due to someone not wanting to marry you [straight] or it being haram [gay]) and you acknowledged that God would reward you with something massive in return, then even if you did mind, after you died and got that massive reward you would be happy.

Our 5th Imam, Imam al-Baqir says that if man knew the reward he got for going through difficulties and hardships he would cut himself into small pieces.

[asphyxiated]

Zahratul_Islam, on 27 December 2011 - 12:05 AM, said:

Are you straight? Have you ever been confused about your own inclinations?

Is sexuality always black and white? No
Is it often? Sure.

Saying you are homosexual means that you are attracted to men and desire copulation with men. That is the literal translation of the word. Any additional characteristics you decide to equate with this are products of societal norms and culture. If you say you are homosexual you are not necessarily saying you want to be grossly overpaid to design feminine footwear and party all night with Sarah Jessica Parker.

Saying you are homosexual just means that you are attracted to the same sex, it does not require one to completely surrender their unique character traits.  If your sexuality is more complex in the sense that you are attracted to both genders then you are no longer classified as homosexual.

Simples.

I don't pretend to know what people who have those inclinations think and feel. That would be dishonest. Defining oneself on the basis of their sexual acts is where I have an issue. From a historical lens, sexuality was never treated in such a manner. Greek citizens who copulated with pre-teen boys didn't refer to themselves as homosexual or bisexual; homosexual activity was considered a privilege (and even an expectation) for citizens.

I completely agree that there are grey areas. Life is many different shades of grey and I would fully expect that people who prefer homosexuality have diverse backgrounds, origins and reasons for their preference. However, the task at hand is to understand these acts in light of Islam, since the  consensus here seems to be that Islam is oppressive because it restricts the "natural" sexual behaviour of mankind. Instead of trying to understand the Islamic perspective and why homosexuality is considered a forbidden act, we instead see people arguing from a sense of "natural determinism." In my opinion, human sexuality in itself has no limits. However, we follow a religion that surely places limits and guidelines on every aspect of our lives, not the least of which being sexuality.

I'm of the opinion that the Islamic punishment for homosexual acts is not intended to be consummated in the sense that this behaviour should be monitored by the state. The most heinous of acts in Islam are still forgiven by God--acts that dwarf homosexuality in terms of their impermissibility (for example, the story of the gravedigger). Collecting the testimony of four witnesses who are willing to testify and recount the acts with consistency is a lofty guideline for proceeding with the punishment. Even then, if you don't live in an Islamic state this process would be impermissible. Even then, the definition of what constitutes an Islamic state is an even more controversial (and no, countries such as Pakistan are not islamic states).

Does Islam not provide a complete system in terms of spirituality, jurisprudence, theology and ethics? If it does, then where does sexuality fit in? I think we all know the answer. Within this system, where would homosexual behaviour fit in? An act cannot be deemed halal because God is forgiving; it is deemed halal because it has either been prescribed, deemed obligatory or there is no proof against it.

If you think I have an issue with a person who practices homosexuality, I don't. Like everything else, I refrain from judgment because it is not my place to judge that person's jihad or their punishment/rewards in the Hereafter. I also strongly believe that sexual acts belong in private if it involves consenting participants who are not harming each other or those around them. If those parameters are met, I hold no moral or ethical issues, whatever the acts may entail. What we seek to understand, however, is what Islam says about this issue and why it says what it does.

[Gepetto_Zapata]

Click the following:

Gayism:
http://www.tashayyu....hs/hudud/sodomy

Girlism:
http://www.tashayyu....ism-and-pimping

It's dangerous to go alone by the way...

[reckless.spouse]

I have chosen to not judge homosexuals. Id rather focus on things that concern me directly rather than pointing fingers at others. However Im curious, and this is a question for everyone on this thread.

Ive seen some homosexuals trying to work on their homosexuality. As in they believe it is wrong, they keep it under wraps, and they are working on themselves to get rid of it. Then there are others who chose to come out in the open about it, in defiance or compulsion, and even lobby for it. Im just wondering if you guys think one is better than the other ?

[Purged]

AOA

It seems like the propaganda machine is in its full throttle. Don't get me wrong,  I feel for those who have an inclination towards their same sex and are trying to fight it. I pray that they get better.
But this whole issue has come down to a point where majority of Muslim brothers and sisters are afraid of commenting on it. 'oh I don't want to judge anyone..' - c'mon! Whatever happened to Amr bil maroof..? I'm not saying we should quickly send them to hell but atleast be honest and tell them its haraam.

WS

[MohsinQ]

I wonder how could anyone name such an act as okay !

[AlAbd AlThaleel]

It seems to me that homosexuality (if it truly is "natural") and its justification is very hypocritical. Just because one has a sexual urge towards the same sex does not mean the urge is appropriate or justified to act on. For example, if I said I had a sexual inclination towards children, would that be alright because its "natural"? No, I would be labeled as a pedophile. Whereas if I went to Canada and announced I was gay, I'd get to take part in a parade. It seems this recent inclination towards gay rights could just be because of how much events such as The Gay Pride Parade help the economy. Just because one has some disgusting urge does not mean it is appropriate or natural to act on it. Or else, bestiality, necrophilia, pedophilia, etc should all be allowed as well, because they're just "natural urges." For those fighting this disorder, may Allah (SWT) help them stay strong.

[ShiaBen]

It even gets stranger when you see this concept:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Pansexuality

[y3qub]

I just want to make a comment on people's views, rather than give input. I hope that's okay.

People can be very quick to judge others and the struggles they are given. So the majority of people aren't given the same struggle, it doesn't make the homosexual person's struggle less worthy of empathy. Muslims who have an attraction to people of the same gender know what acts are and are not acceptable in Islam, none are claiming otherwise (to my knowledge, anyway).

When somebody says they are homosexual they mean they are attracted to a person of the same gender, i.e. a man likes another man or a woman likes another woman. It doesn't necessarily involve acts: there are homosexuals who never act upon their desire, just as there are heterosexuals who have sex with men of the same gender (i.e. situational homosexuality).

If you want to help your fellow Muslims, support them in their struggle. Every Muslim has their own personal struggle.

[reckless.spouse]

Im surprised how easy it is for us to jump to 'being honest' and 'telling it how it is'. Not one person here has faults. You lie, you cheat, you steal and you usurp the rights left right and center. But you are the first one to castrate a homosexual. Remember all the things I mentioned in the last sentence are haram and the magnitude doesnt matter . I hope you guys can understand that .

[Abbas0]

Brothers and sisters, homosexuality is by far the worst thing after SHIRK.
One quote I can bring up from the past that I've come across of that makes so much sense
"Homosexuality is not natural. Do you see any animals defeating nature and sleeping with the same sex? NO!"

[Alejandro Sosa]

uhh..yes you do see homosexual animals actually.

it's very well documented.

i'm not defending homosexuality, but imo there's no doubt it is an uncontrollable urge for some people.

[Faatima_ki_kaneez]

reckless.spouse, on 06 January 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

Im just wondering if you guys think one is better than the other ?

Sin is sin, no matter how you look at it. However, according to the proverb, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" (I'm quotiut ng from the bible). But, it's even worse when you petition for the acceptance of that sin. If someone chooses to participate in such behavior, it is up to them. it's between them and Allah.

[yellow billed magpie]

Alf, on 23 February 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

uhh..yes you do see homosexual animals actually.

it's very well documented.

i'm not defending homosexuality, but imo there's no doubt it is an uncontrollable urge for some people.

Salam-I agree about homosexuality being present in the animal kingdom, as I have personally witnessed the behavior first hand-I grew up on a farm and have much experience working with animals in the veterinary field and in animal husbandry.Peace:)