91 replies to this topic

[Mehvish]

Many people who know me on this board know what my views are on the issue of feminism. I know my views are quite unorthodox and do not represent "Muslim women" as an entity. I'd like to know your opinions on the following questions and begin an engaging, and much-needed discussion on how Muslim women see themselves. That said, I would really appreciate that the men on this board NOT answer the questions I have poised below. The problem with almost every topic on women's issues on this board entail the fact that its always men speaking about what they think about women's issues, and not what women feel for themselves.
I would also like to premise this discussion by saying that I do not wish to wave my flag of "western feminism" at your faces - I simply want to engage in a discussion on how conscious women are of their rights, and perhaps how much they SHOULD be conscious.

I would appreciate your answers to the following questions. You do not have to answer all of the questions if you do not want to or do not feel comfortable doing so. I also apologize in advance if my biases bleed into my questions. My intention is not to impose myself or sound ignorant. There are certain values I believe in very strongly, and its pretty hard to hide my biases.

1. Do you believe Islam is a patriarchal religion? If so, do you have any trouble reconciling this?

2. Do you consider yourself a feminist? If so, how do you define 'feminism'? If not, why not?

3. How do you define what it means to be a Muslim woman. For the sake of this discussion lets say there is a new term called "Muslim Womanism" (sort of like the term "feminism"), what values and ideas would you attach to it? (ex, equality? motherhood?)

4. Do you wear hijab? If not, why not? - If you used to wear the hijab, and decided to take it off, what led you to your decision?

5. Should women be involved in politics (if so to what extent)? How do you feel about male politicians deciding laws for women?

6. What improvements do you think needs to be made toward the status of women in Muslim culture? For example, some women feel that there needs to be translations of the quran by women, or more female scholars to interpret the fiqh rules for women (as opposed to having a male ayatollah decide the rules for them). Do you think they might be unfair or unreasonable? Skimming through the a risalah for example, there is are some details I've always felt are quite difficult to follow, especially rules on menstruation.

7. In your experience, have you always been treated by men 'fairly' and respectfully? Do you ever feel inferior around community men to a point you feel uncomfortable? On a similar note, do you think the lecturers in mosques do a fair job talking about women's issues? Many of us have heard Ammar's rant about Muslim women who don't wear their hijabs properly. Are you okay with male preaches lecturing women about their hijab? or should women be the ones engaging in this discussion themselves?

8. How do you feel about female circumcision?

9. What are your thoughts about polygamy?

10. What are your thoughts about mutah? Does (or did) your virginity hold any special importance to you?

11. What age do you want to get married/What age do you think women should get married? Before college? After pursuing a career?

Once again, I do not expect you to answer ALL the questions - just the ones that you feel comfortable talking about. I would like as much participation as possible. Its okay if you have not given thought about some of these questions before (I know there are 14-15 year olds, and I would very much like their opinions too!).

Edited by Mehvish, 20 December 2011 - 08:34 PM.

[~Zee Zee~]

i got bored after reading the first question.....go make me a sandwich..

[La fata illa Ali]

Mehvish, on 20 December 2011 - 08:22 PM, said:

10. What are your thoughts about mutah? Does (or did) your virginity hold any special importance to you?

are u trying to hint at something with this question? U have asked two separate questions but in a very kniving way, u have associated muta with the value of one's virginity which i find un fair...ur asking this question in way to get a certain answer and i dont like the undertones here.

[Mehvish]

La fata illa Ali, on 20 December 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

are u trying to hint at something with this question? U have asked two separate questions but in a very kniving way, u have associated muta with the value of one's virginity which i find un fair...ur asking this question in way to get a certain answer and i dont like the undertones here.

I dont think its an unfair question at all. I dont care if you dont like the undertones because the question isn't for you. The question of mutah and viginity are often associated with one another when it is called into question, specifically for girls since some women may or may not be comfortable doing mutah depending on whether the want to "save" their virginity.

[3laweyaZainabiya]

I will try to reply to this tomorrow insha'Allah. I would like to see what 'always searching sister' has to say about this. Her responses are always well written and full of knowledge.

Till tomorrow...
Fi Amanillah

[_jen_]

1. Do you believe Islam is a patriarchal religion? If so, do you have any trouble reconciling this?

I dont really believe this, i think its more our cultures that are patriarchal

2. Do you consider yourself a feminist? If so, how do you define 'feminism'? If not, why not?

No I am not a feminist.

3. How do you define what it means to be a Muslim woman. For the sake of this discussion lets say there is a new term called "Muslim Womanism" (sort of like the term "feminism"), what values and ideas would you attach to it? (ex, equality? motherhood?)

I dont think i've understood this question properly..but, i think if I gave my definition of a muslim women - id get in trouble, lol/

4. Do you wear hijab? If not, why not? - If you used to wear the hijab, and decided to take it off, what led you to your decision?

No. Because its not seen as modest anymore. I took it off because i was getting more (muslim) male attention with it on.

5. Should women be involved in politics (if so to what extent)? How do you feel about male politicians deciding laws for women?

Not sure about this. I think women are sometimes a bit too emotional...

6. What improvements do you think needs to be made toward the status of women in Muslim culture? For example, some women feel that there needs to be translations of the quran by women, or more female scholars to interpret the fiqh rules for women (as opposed to having a male ayatollah decide the rules for them). Do you think they might be unfair or unreasonable? Skimming through the a risalah for example, there is are some details I've always felt are quite difficult to follow, especially rules on menstruation.

Pass

7. In your experience, have you always been treated by men 'fairly' and respectfully? Do you ever feel inferior around community men to a point you feel uncomfortable? On a similar note, do you think the lecturers in mosques do a fair job talking about women's issues? Many of us have heard Ammar's rant about Muslim women who don't wear their hijabs properly. Are you okay with male preaches lecturing women about their hijab? or should women be the ones engaging in this discussion themselves?

No muslim men have treated me extremely disrespectfully. As far as Im concerned Syed Ammar should fix up his hijab before telling me to.

8. How do you feel about female circumcision?
Disgusting
9. What are your thoughts about polygamy?
Disgusting
10. What are your thoughts about mutah? Does (or did) your virginity hold any special importance to you?
Disgusting. Im ashamed to be a shia for this reason. Virginity is very important.
11. What age do you want to get married/What age do you think women should get married? Before college? After pursuing a career?

Early.

[3laweyaZainabiya]

,

1) I dont believe that Islam is patriarchal, you have to remember that just because it's a popular view doesnt mean it's the islamic view.

2) I am not a feminist because feminism is an extreme. I think Islam balances out our roles as women.


3) You wanna know what it means to be a Muslim woman? Go read about the life of Fatimat ul- Zahra . She is, and always will be, every Muslim woman's role model. Also her daughter, Zainab, whom without her brave speeches along the way to yazids palace, Islam wouldn't exist today.

4) I do wear the hijab and there isn't anything in this world that can convince me to take it off.

5) Yes they should and they are. I don't know much about other countries but in Iraq we have many women involved in politics. Also there is nothing in the Quran or any Hadith that says women shouldn't be involved in those matters.
Well male politicians are elected by both men and woman so if it really is majority rules then i don't understand why it's a problem.


6) If there are any improvements to be made It would be cultural and not religious. I don't quite understand this question. What difference would it make if a woman translated the Quran or a man.  If you think something is unclear about a marja's ruling on things maybe you should contact them.


7) Again, real Muslim men are different from Muslim men who are blinded by culture. In Islam, men and woman deserve the same amount of respect. All the muslim men that I've encountered were extremely respectful. I've had conversations with a lecturer at a mosque with men before. Some cultural men like making woman inferior and most of the time it's the old people so I usually let it slide because I respect them as elders but if I honestly feel like some sort of injustice is being served to me or anyone else I would say something.  I don't think many lecturers talk about our issues mainly because they are men and can't see our point of view on things. Sometimes they're just too scared to even go there. Sayed ammar does a great job of touching on women's issues. Sayed Ammar isn't afraid of giving lectures about what Islam is really like. He doesn't care what the majority is, sometimes the popular view isn't the right one.
There is a right and there is a wrong. Allah made hijab wajib for every girl 9 and up for a reason.  If it was a muslim speaking about hijab it would be the same lecture Whether it is a woman or a man. So no I don't really mind.

8) I honestly have never even heard of female circumcision being practiced outside of Africa and it's quite sickening. Thats also another thing that has nothing to do with islam.

9) If a man can handle more than one woman and treat all of them fairly then I don't see the problem.

10) My views on mutah are the same views of any Muslim woman. It's a blessing Allah (swt) bestowed upon us.
You know what? You've been asking me all these questions, why don't you define virginity for me. What makes a woman chaste and pure? Her hymen? If that's the way that you're going to look at things then  any woman who was unfortunate to have a hymen that doesn't break right away should be tried and convicted as a adulteress. As for the woman who lost their virginity during a mutah marriage, what's the difference between her and a divorced woman? She did it the halal way so what part of that is unchaste?

11) I honestly believe a woman should get married whenever she feels ready to. Marriage is highly recommended but it's not wajib. I know some amazing middle aged woman who go to a howza in Najaf that aren't married. As to when I would get married, same thing. I'll get married whenever I believe I am ready to handle the immense responsibility of being a wife and mother.

[3laweyaZainabiya]

Yes. It's very redundant. ^ lol

[always searching sister]

Salaam alaikum sister,

Thank you for asking these questions, some of which have the potential to lead to very deep discussions and the sharing of useful knowledge. Many of the questions you have asked are commonly floating around in the minds of different people, so it is very good to study them together and increase our own understanding.

One thing I would like to comment on from your original introduction, is your statement that you wish the conversation to be conducted between sisters without the interference of brothers. In general I agree it could be beneficial to have any number of serious discussions focusing in on the view point of sisters. However, since brothers are able to read this topic, if they view something which is wrong and no one else is standing up and correcting the wrong statement, then they have a duty Islamically to address the wrong being stated. In this case they would not be allowed Islamically to avoid interference in a sister’s only topic.

Inshallah I will try to answer some of your questions today and I will come back to answer others at a later time.



1. Do you believe Islam is a patriarchal religion? If so, do you have any trouble reconciling this?

No, I believe that God is Just and He loves all of His creatures with a love that is so strong, it is unimaginable to us. And for this reason, He wants to guide all of His creatures towards true happiness and has provided every tool necessary at their disposal for them to reach this happiness, including a set of laws that are perfect, which provide the greatest benefit for all creatures.

If God preferred one creature over another for a reason that this creature had absolutely no control over, would this be fair? No, it would not be fair. So it would not be fair for God to prefer one creature just because it was of a particular gender, or race, or possessed a particular level of wealth, or beauty or it is a human rather than an animal, etc. These are all uncontrollable factors. Therefore the body of laws that God provides His creatures with, must lead to all of the creatures obtaining their true happiness without favoritism for any particular group, otherwise God would not be Just. And it is logically impossible for God to be unjust, if He were unjust I would no longer believe He is truly the original cause of all causes.

To understand why God must logically be Just is one of the basic pillars of a Muslim’s fundamentals. The fundamentals of the religion are the most important topic in the religion, that every Muslim needs to comprehend at the highest level possible. So inshallah if anyone wants me to further explain why God must logically be Just, please let me know and inshallah in the future I will elaborate on my own understanding.


2. Do you consider yourself a feminist? If so, how do you define 'feminism'? If not, why not?

No, I define myself as a creature of God and as a Muslim (one who submits to Gods will, which is in the ability of every creature to do so). As God loves all His creatures and provides for all of them, I must also strive for the rights of all the creatures to be implemented (as this is the just thing to do). Regardless of the creature’s gender, age, race/nationality, religion or species, I must fight for their rights equally without allowing any group to oppress the rights of another.

If the definition of a feminist is one who strives for the rights of women to be implemented, then I could be deemed a feminist (and striving for the rights of women) by others, if commitment to this cause would not exclude commitment to the fight for the rights of every other group within God’s creation. For example I would also have to be considered by others as a fighter for animal rights, male rights, children’s’ rights, adult’s rights, elderly rights, the racial and religious minorities rights and the rights of the religious and racial majority, and the list would continue until it encompasses the rights of every group in the creation.

To need to define every sector of the creation for whom I fight for, would not be practical. So it is better to be classified under a name which defines me as a striver for the rights of all. Furthermore, I would not define myself separately under the names of each different group because I believe that the whole of creation should be looked upon as a whole whenever possible, to avoid the creation of barriers between us.

The reason we should try to define ourselves as being part of one big group, is that God wants the whole of creation to work together in co-operation to achieve the greatest happiness for all, and all our actions should be aimed at achieving this goal.

In order to achieve this goal, defining difference between groups of creatures is necessary only for obtaining the understanding of what each individuals role should be for the greatest benefit of the collective (different creatures will have different strengths and weaknesses, and therefore will provide greater benefit working in the areas of their strengths).  

But when deciding which group we as an individual should work to obtain the greatest benefits for, we should always make our priority the group as a whole (prioritize obtaining the rights of all of creation). If we prioritize achieving benefits and what we deem as ‘rights’ for just one or a few groups, we may overlook the rights of other groups and oppress them. So we need to consider the rights of all groups in the group as a whole, and try to apply equilibrium by following God’s laws.

One of the biggest diseases faced by the human is the disease of prioritizing the self at the expense of others. We have to understand that we are created to co-exist in a system that will only function efficiently if there is harmony between every creature. We have to understand that for our self to achieve our greatest benefit, the whole has to achieve the greatest benefit. This is because, if every creature wanted for others the good that they want for their self, then logically no creature would harm another.

Feminism combined with the ignorance of the rights of other groups, is another expression of the disease of the self. It is about prioritizing one’s self or one’s own group, in order to try to obtain the greatest benefits for this group. It is no different to racism, nationalism (believing ones nationality is superior), believing one’s religious group to be more important than others and believing adults are superior to children, etc. The desire to obtain benefits for one’s own group above others always comes back to the selfishness of wanting to obtain the greatest benefit for one’s self. And this is harmful if obtaining self benefits, is at the expense of the rights of others.

However, being selfish is not necessarily a bad thing. It is necessary to want the greatest benefit for your self, it is a basic instinct God has placed inside all of us. God has placed inside us the desire to obtain the greatest benefit for our self and to avoid harm as much as possible. He has done this so that we will for strive to find the truth of what will really provide the greatest benefit for our self and for us to apply this in our life. If we study reality and discover what the truth really is, we will see that God is Just so He made achieving the greatest benefit for each individual creature directly tied to achieving the greatest benefit for all of the rest of creation. He did this so that there would be the maximum chance for all to receive the greatest benefit. And once we understand that our greatest benefit is achieved by obtaining the greatest benefit for all, then we will fight for justice for all and not just for imagined ‘benefits’ for our self and our own groups, at the expense of oppressing the rights of others.

Bad selfishness, is wanting the greatest benefit for one’s self but not truly understanding what that is, and thereby oppressing others to obtain their rights (in the belief that you are gaining more benefit for your self), when truly you are harming the whole of creation (and thereby truly harming your own self).

The only way to make your self and the rest of creation happy, is to know what truly are your own rights and what are the rights of the rest of the creation, and then by working to have these rights implemented in every situation we face in everyday life. You can only find out what the true harms and benefits are by finding out what are the true laws that the Just Creator has provided for us. Truly only the One who is Just and has knowledge of all things, can be the only true expert on what laws will provide the greatest benefit for all of His own creation. And that is why we must submit to His laws, for the happiness of our self and all creation, in this life and in the next.

[Abu Hadi]

^ Wow.....

Edited by Abu Hadi, 25 December 2011 - 09:01 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

Quote

pa·tri·ar·chy
noun \-ˌär-kē\
plural pa·tri·ar·chies
Definition of PATRIARCHY
1
: social organization marked by the supremacy of the father in the clan or family, the legal dependence of wives and children, and the reckoning of descent and inheritance in the male line; broadly : control by men of a disproportionately large share of power

I think it's fair to say Islam is a patriarchal religion, but this is not a bad thing, contrary to what the feminist would have you believe.

[3laweyaZainabiya]

^ haydar just because culturally most Muslims are patriarchal doesn't make Islam itself patriarchal.

Abu Hadi, on 25 December 2011 - 09:00 PM, said:

^ Wow.....

I know... Masha'Allah... You guys see why I like her so much dispite the fact that I don't really know her?

[Haydar Husayn]

3laweyaZainabiya, on 25 December 2011 - 09:14 PM, said:

^ haydar just because culturally most Muslims are patriarchal doesn't make Islam itself patriarchal.

You don't think Islam give the father supremecy in the family? The women and children and legally dependent of the men? Islam doesn't favour boys when it comes to inheritance? Descent isn't through the male line? Men don't have a disproportionately large share of power?

A wife can't even leave the house without her husband's permission, so how can Islam be anything other than patriarchal? The mistake you are making is thinking this is a bad thing.

[3laweyaZainabiya]

Haydar Husayn, on 25 December 2011 - 09:20 PM, said:

You don't think Islam give the father supremecy in the family? The women and children and legally dependent of the men? Islam doesn't favour boys when it comes to inheritance? Descent isn't through the male line? Men don't have a disproportionately large share of power?

A wife can't even leave the house without her husband's permission, so how can Islam be anything other than patriarchal? The mistake you are making is thinking this is a bad thing.

I think the way OP used patriarchal she she meant islam favors men over women.
Plus when a woman doesn't have a wali or a husband, who is she dependent on?

[titumir]

Was Bibi Fatima(AS) a feminist? Would she describe herself as a feminist?

[3laweyaZainabiya]

titumir, on 26 December 2011 - 12:43 AM, said:

Was Bibi Fatima(AS) a feminist? Would she describe herself as a feminist?

That's what she said...

[Haydar Husayn]

3laweyaZainabiya, on 25 December 2011 - 09:40 PM, said:

I think the way OP used patriarchal she she meant islam favors men over women.

I don't know why you assume that, and anyway it has a strict definition. People can't just use words to mean something they don't.

Quote

Plus when a woman doesn't have a wali or a husband, who is she dependent on?

Nobody I suppose, but this is hardly a good state for a Muslim woman to be in.

[3laweyaZainabiya]

Haydar Husayn, on 26 December 2011 - 08:31 AM, said:

I don't know why you assume that, and anyway it has a strict definition. People can't just use words to mean something they don't.



Nobody I suppose, but this is hardly a good state for a Muslim woman to be in.

Why is that? I mean correct me if I'm wrong but was sayyida Khadija in that situation? Before she proposed to the prophet she was completely independent and she had her own business

[Haydar Husayn]

3laweyaZainabiya, on 26 December 2011 - 10:56 AM, said:

Why is that? I mean correct me if I'm wrong but was sayyida Khadija in that situation? Before she proposed to the prophet she was completely independent and she had her own business

Yes, but the ideal is to be married, and it's in fact recommended for women to get married young (look at Fatima and her daughters for example). To be in a situation with no guardian is not good, even for things such as travelling, which women shouldn't do alone.

Anyway, we shouldn't be using examples of what happened during the time of Jahiliyyah when trying to understand what is recommended in Islam. Better to look at examples of the female members of the Ahlulbayt who were born into Islam.

[3laweyaZainabiya]

Haydar Husayn, on 26 December 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

Yes, but the ideal is to be married, and it's in fact recommended for women to get married young (look at Fatima and her daughters for example). To be in a situation with no guardian is not good, even for things such as travelling, which women shouldn't do alone.

Anyway, we shouldn't be using examples of what happened during the time of Jahiliyyah when trying to understand what is recommended in Islam. Better to look at examples of the female members of the Ahlulbayt who were born into Islam.

It's recommended for both men and women. I've never heard a Hadith that encourages women to get married more than men. In fact, I think it's the other way around since men have less patience than women.

[Haydar Husayn]

3laweyaZainabiya, on 26 December 2011 - 11:12 AM, said:

It's recommended for both men and women. I've never heard a Hadith that encourages women to get married more than men. In fact, I think it's the other way around since men have less patience than women.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from one of his companions from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: From the felicity of the man is that his daughter not menstruate in his house.

2 – And from one of our companions, al-Kulayni said: Its isnad is dropped from me [from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام – in al-Kafi], he said: Verily Allah عزّ وجلّ did not leave anything which is needed but that He taught it to His Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله.  So from His teaching to him was that one day he ascended the minbar, and praised and eulogized Allah.  Then he said: O people, verily Jibra’il came to me from the Knower of subtleties, the All-Aware, and he said: Verily the virgins are of the status of the fruit upon the tree.  When its fruits ripen and it is not harvested, the sun spoils it and the winds scatter it.  And likewise are the virgins.  When they mature (or, apprehend) what the women mature, then there is no cure for them but having a husband, otherwise they are not safe from corruption as they are human.  He said: So a man went to him and said: O Messenger of Allah, so who do we marry?  So he said: The equals (al-akfa’).  So he said: [O Messenger of Allah – in al-Kafi] and who are the equals?  So he said: The believers, some of them are  equals of others. The believers, some of them are equals of others.

12 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: From the felicity of the man is that his daughter not menstruate in his house.

http://www.tashayyu....ries/chapter-23

[3laweyaZainabiya]

Haydar Husayn, on 26 December 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from one of his companions from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: From the felicity of the man is that his daughter not menstruate in his house.

2 – And from one of our companions, al-Kulayni said: Its isnad is dropped from me [from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã – in al-Kafi], he said: Verily Allah ÚÒø æÌáø did not leave anything which is needed but that He taught it to His Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå.  So from His teaching to him was that one day he ascended the minbar, and praised and eulogized Allah.  Then he said: O people, verily Jibra’il came to me from the Knower of subtleties, the All-Aware, and he said: Verily the virgins are of the status of the fruit upon the tree.  When its fruits ripen and it is not harvested, the sun spoils it and the winds scatter it.  And likewise are the virgins.  When they mature (or, apprehend) what the women mature, then there is no cure for them but having a husband, otherwise they are not safe from corruption as they are human.  He said: So a man went to him and said: O Messenger of Allah, so who do we marry?  So he said: The equals (al-akfa’).  So he said: [O Messenger of Allah – in al-Kafi] and who are the equals?  So he said: The believers, some of them are  equals of others. The believers, some of them are equals of others.

12 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn said: The Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå said: From the felicity of the man is that his daughter not menstruate in his house.

http://www.tashayyu....ries/chapter-23

I could find even more ahadith that state the samething about men. These ahadith tell women to get married young if there is a fear of falling into sin. which is likely but not as likely as men.
These ahadith arent stating that women should get married because they can't be independents.

Haydar Husayn, on 26 December 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from one of his companions from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: From the felicity of the man is that his daughter not menstruate in his house.

2 – And from one of our companions, al-Kulayni said: Its isnad is dropped from me [from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã – in al-Kafi], he said: Verily Allah ÚÒø æÌáø did not leave anything which is needed but that He taught it to His Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå.  So from His teaching to him was that one day he ascended the minbar, and praised and eulogized Allah.  Then he said: O people, verily Jibra’il came to me from the Knower of subtleties, the All-Aware, and he said: Verily the virgins are of the status of the fruit upon the tree.  When its fruits ripen and it is not harvested, the sun spoils it and the winds scatter it.  And likewise are the virgins.  When they mature (or, apprehend) what the women mature, then there is no cure for them but having a husband, otherwise they are not safe from corruption as they are human.  He said: So a man went to him and said: O Messenger of Allah, so who do we marry?  So he said: The equals (al-akfa’).  So he said: [O Messenger of Allah – in al-Kafi] and who are the equals?  So he said: The believers, some of them are  equals of others. The believers, some of them are equals of others.

12 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn said: The Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå said: From the felicity of the man is that his daughter not menstruate in his house.

http://www.tashayyu....ries/chapter-23

I could find even more ahadith that state the samething about men. These ahadith tell women to get married young if there is a fear of falling into sin. which is likely but not as likely as men.
These ahadith arent stating that women should get married because they can't be independent.

[Haydar Husayn]

3laweyaZainabiya, on 26 December 2011 - 11:32 AM, said:

I could find even more ahadith that state the samething about men. These ahadith tell women to get married young if there is a fear of falling into sin. which is likely but not as likely as men.
These ahadith arent stating that women should get married because they can't be independents.

These ahadith aren't telling women to get married young if there is a fear of falling into sin. They are telling fathers to get their daughters married young (ideally before they even menstruate), full stop. As for men being more likely to fell into sin than women, that may or may not be true, but the ahadith also say women were created with more desire:


4 – And from Muhammad b. Yahya from `Abdullah b. Muhammad from `Ali b. al-Hakam from Aban b. `Uthman from `Abd ar-Rahman b. Sayaba from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: Verily Allah created Hawwa from Adam, so the ambition of women is men, so fortify them in the houses.

5 – And by the isnad from Aban from al-Wasiti from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: Verily Allah created Adam from water and clay, so the ambition of the son of Adam is in water and clay.  And He created Hawwa from Adam, so the ambition of women is in men, so fortify them in the houses.

6 – And from `Ali b. Muhammad from Ibn Jamhur from his father going up to him.  He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said in one of his speeches: Verily the ambition of the beasts is their stomachs.  And verily the women, their ambition is men.

7 – And from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from al-Husayn b. `Alwan from Sa`d b. Tarif from al-Asbagh b. Nabata.  He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said: Allah عزّ وجلّ created desire in ten parts.  So He put nine parts in women, and a single part in men.  And had Allah عزّ وجلّ not put in them modesty in proportion to the parts of desire, there would be for every man nine women attached to him.

8 – And from them from Ahmad from Muhammad b. Sinan from Abu Khalid al-Qammat from Durays from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: I heard him saying: Verily women were given the sexual potency (bud`) of twelve and the patience of twelve.

10 – And from Muhammad b. Yahya from [one of – in a manuscript] our companions from Marwak b. `Ubayd from Zur`a from Sama`a b. Mihran from Abu Basir.  He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying:  The woman has been made to excel over the man with ninety-nines (portions) of desire.  However Allah has cast modesty upon her.

[Jafariyya]

I am a Proud Shi'a Muslimah who tries her best to obey Allah and His Prophet! Feminist? No!

Edited by Jafariyya, 26 December 2011 - 12:11 PM.