188 replies to this topic

[titumir]

Well, if you balance the hate on both sides, you will find that Jews not only hate Muslims, but they organize and fund anti-Islamic organizations and groups, to the tune of millions of dollars. I doubt you will find a single Muslim organization which pays money to create anti-semitic sentiment. Jews are trying to create a war between Muslims and Christians by funding these groups, which portray an apocalyptic vision of the future, that Muslims are trying to destroy the "Judeo-Christian" "Civilization". Whereas, if you look at Western history you will find that until 60 years ago Jews were officialy discriminated against in America. So there is no such thing as a "Judeo-Christian" civilization, and the present one in the West is a purely secular/rationalist/culturally Christian European civilization.

Of course, they (the jewish gropus funding anti-Islamic organizations) want, ideally for Muslims and Christians to fight and destroy each other, while keeping themselves out of any trouble.

[570]

Christianlady, on 28 December 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

This question has been raised. However, Christians are not at the moment threatening to kill Jewish people, thank God. From what I have heard, Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth. At least, this is what media tells us. Whether it's true or not, Ia m asking to find out. Back to your question,


Unfortunately, I don't personally know any Christian Palestinians. I do however know of a man, Masab Yousef, who used to be Muslim and had ties to  Hamas, but became a Christian. He is not against Israelis or Jewish people, as far as I am aware. The last I heard of him, he was in danger of being deported from the USA, but hopefully he is granted asylum here. Anyways, I do hope that Christian Palestinians do not throw rocks or rockets at Jewish people or in Israel, but rather pray for people and help bring about peace!

Iran or Ahmadinjad never said that Israel must be wiped off from the map. That's a typical foxnews propaganda.
http://islamicinsigh...about-iran.html

So what if he is the son of the so called Hamas leader?
I think that guy Masab Yousef was never involved in any Hamas activities.

But yes, we should not hate the Jews for no reason. It doesn't mean that ALL the Jews are true. The zionists should be hated, be it Jews, Christians, or even Muslims

[Christianlady]

alimohamad40, on 28 December 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

" wipe israel off the map like the way the soviet union was wiped off the map "  this means dismantal the raciast regime not kill all the people as the media tries to brainwash us
the soviet union was wiped off the map not by killing every Russian but by  a cold war.

Hello AliMohamad,

In the USA, "wipe ... off the map" is a literal expression basically meaning genocide/murder.

http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/wipe out
"Phrasal Verb: wipe out
1. To destroy or be destroyed completely.
2. Slang To murder."

Maybe that is where the misunderstanding comes in? Maybe people in Iran do not understand how American think?

Americans, by the way, do not consider the Soviet Union to be wiped off the map. Rather, we just consider the fall of the Soviet Union mean that as of now, the Soviet Union is not a threat as it was once, nor as great of a competition to the USA as it was.

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the problem with what they call Israel today is that they stole that land and they need to give it back to its owners,,,

Again, this seems to be a case of differences in thought pattern. First of all, the land was first inhabited by Canaanites, which included the Philistines (one famous one Goliath, is noted in the Bible, killed by David), the Hittites, the Jebusites, and many other groups of people.  God led the children of Israel (Abraham's son Isaac's son Jacob's 12 sons) out of slavery in Egypt to the Promised Land through Moses.  Although Moses saw the land, he never entered. However, his successor Joshua led the people into the Promised Land. Many of the Canaanites were killed by the Israelites. Do you believe that the children of Israel, led by Moses' successor Joshua, stole that land and need to give it back?

Anyways, when King David conquered Jerusalem (a city of the Jebusites) he made Jerusalem the "capitol" The Babylonians (ancestors of the Iraqis?) conquered Israel later on, and then the Persians conquered the Babylonians. The Persian King Cyrus allowed Jewish people to return to Israel and rebuild their nation. King Cyrus is mentioned in the Old Testament.

2 Chronicles 36 (NIV)

" ²² In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and also to put it in writing:
²³ “This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
   “‘The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Any of his people among you may go up, and may the LORD their God be with them.’”

The Jewish people made Israel (the land) their home again. However, later on, Alexander the Great, the Greek conquerer, conquered the land. Afterwards, the Roman Empire conquered the land. During Jesus' time, the Roman empire had already established strong control of Israel. The Jewish people were hoping the Messiah would come then and rescue them from their Roman oppressors. However, Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Temple (the first temple, that King Solomon built, had been destroyed by the Babylonians.)  and that happened. Jewish people rose up against Rome, and Rome crushed them. All these times of Israel being conquered by other groups of people was very hard for the Jewish people. Later on, the Arab Muslims conquered the land from the now "Christian" Rome. Christians from Europe later on attempted to conquer the land back until Saladin (who many Christians respect till this day) reconquered the land. The Ayyubids then had control of the land until the Ottoman Turks occupied the land. Then, the Ottoman Empire who sided with Germany, fell to Great Britian and her allies, and Great Britian had control of the land. The English sold/gave the land to Jewish refugees, so really, it was not stolen in that sense, but rather sold/given by the nation controlling it. Do the Jewish people need to "give it back"? No. Sad to say, the land of Israel has been a "hot spot" for a long long long time, with many different groups of people conquering it and controlling it. The English Empire has been the last one recently, and now it's pretty much back into the Jewish peopl

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does Christianity or judaism condone theft ?

No, Judaism does not condone theft.  However, Judaism does support the cause of the descendants of Abraham'son Isaac's son Jacob (Israel)'s 12 sons moving to the Promised Land. Even today, Jewish people all over the world pray for Jersusalem. Again, did Moses' successor Joshua "steal" the land of Canaan from the Canaanites?

As for Christians, Christians do not condone theft either. Many Christians believe it is the right of Jewish people to live in Israel.

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am sure they dont that's why we dont blame the Jewish faith for this theft but rather the zionists

It is not theft anymore than Arabs conquering other places (Like India and what is now known as Pakistan) is theft...

Peace and God bless you

[Christianlady]

Dawood, on 29 December 2011 - 04:36 AM, said:

Why this type of formulation? It's like you're stating that in Christianity jews should be well treated and in Islam not.

Hello Dawood,

Yes, in Christian beliefs, all people including Jews, should be well treated.

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You could have just written "from muslims who don't obey Muhammad's teachings" too.

Have you ever read the biography "When the Moon Split"? On page 308, it says that Muhammad said "May the curse of Allah be upon the Jews and Christians" and wanted them expelled from Arabia. Jesus says to bless those who curse you. Jesus is Jewish, as well as Moses and King David and the Prophets, including Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, Hosea,...)

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If you think it is because jews don't accept Muhammad saaws as a prophet, why is there less animosity between muslims and christians (who also don't accept him)?

I have personally experienced animosity against me for being a Christian by Sunni Muslims. I do admit however that there does seem to be less animosity from Shia Muslims against Christians. However, there is still animosity against Christians who were Muslims, even by Shia Muslims.

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And I could state the same about christian prosecution of jews, that it was because jews don't believe in Jesus as. Be fair.

Jesus never taught his followers to hate those who didn't believe in him. The apostles of Jesus and Jesus' disciples were Jewish, so why would they hate Jews?

Christian beliefs are the fulfillment of the Jewish Law and Prophets, because Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jewish Law and Prophets.

Gentile Christians who do not understand that are obviously not understanding what they believe... Jesus is Jewish.

Peace and God bless you

[Lanatin]

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Have you ever read the biography "When the Moon Split"? On page 308, it says that Muhammad said "May the curse of Allah be upon the Jews and Christians" and wanted them expelled from Arabia. Jesus says to bless those who curse you. Jesus is Jewish, as well as Moses and King David and the Prophets, including Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, Hosea,...)

Ah I knew it! Typical missionary parasite coming on this website, using partial quotations and misleading others on what Islam's teachings are! I could do the same with Jesus' namecalling like 'vipers' and 'hypocrites', but I don't lie and take out of context like you missionaries.

In the full quote the Prophet was referring to the Jews and Christians who took the graves of their saints for  places of worship by assigning some divine power to them, besides regularly giving offerings at the burial site. Here's the hadith in full:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ismail ibn Abi Hakim that he heard Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz say, "One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, 'May Allah fight the jews and the christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration . Two deens shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.' "  (Malik's Muwatta, Book 45, Number 45:5:17)

He didn't want them expelled, in his last will he called for the expulsion of pagans. Nowhere will you find a quotation where the Prophet ordered their expulsion. In fact he made many treaties with them and allowed the bishopry in Yemen to remain so long as they paid a poll tax called 'Jizya'. 'When The Moon Split' was an edited version Mubarakpuri's biographical account, and the latter made a mistake in his writing by including the jews and christians as 'the pagans' who were to be expelled. This was a fault on his part, as the Quran clearly distinguishes between the pagans and the 'people of the book' (jews and christians). And here's the actual will in its originality which Mubarakpuri didn't quote directly:

"Ibn Abbas said: '...And he left in his will prior to his demise three items: to get the pagans out of the Arab land, to reward the envoys the same way he used to reward them and I forgot the third one.'"(Bukhari, Vol.2, Al-Jihad Wal Siyar, page 118)

Some Jews and Christians were condemned that is true, but the upright who kept true to their divine scriptures are praised in the Quran:

"They are not alike; of the people of the Book is a group upright that they recite the signs of God all along the night, and prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day and enjoin goodness and forbid evil, and hasten to do good deeds; and these are of the righteous ones" (Quran 3:113-114)


If you merely copy and pasted your claims from a missionary website, well those guys have been exposed for forgery and deceptive polemics time and again. I wouldn't take my polemics from them.

Oh and a bit of relevant history for you, the pagans were expelled immediately following the Prophet's death but the Jews and Christians remained in their habitations until the second caliph Omar had them expelled.

[Christianlady]

La, on 29 December 2011 - 12:44 PM, said:

Ah I knew it! Typical missionary parasite coming on this website, using partial quotations and misleading others on what Islam's teachings are!

Hello La'nat Ma Man,

I am not a missionary. I am a Christian lady who has never tried to convert any Muslim person. I do however, explain what I believe.  Are you hostile to your Christian friends? Just curious. As to the biography, I am quoting what it says. if you don't believe it says that, please feel free to read it yourself. If indeed Muhammad did not wish Allah to curse Jews and Christians, please show evidence to the contrary? Also, please feel free to post the context as to why.  Thank you.

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I could do the same with Jesus' namecalling like 'vipers' and 'hypocrites', but I don't lie and take out of context like you missionaries.

About Jesus calling certain people vipers and hypocrites, I am not at all ashamed of Jesus' words. I will quote them for you.

Matthew 15 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"¹ Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, ² “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
³ Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? ⁴ For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’^[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’^{[b] 5} But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ ⁶ they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. ⁷ You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
   ⁸ “‘These people honor me with their lips,
   but their hearts are far from me.
⁹ They worship me in vain;
   their teachings are merely human rules.’^[c]”
¹⁰ Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. ¹¹ What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
¹² Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
¹³ He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. ¹⁴ Leave them; they are blind guides.^[d] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
¹⁵ Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”
   ¹⁶ “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. ¹⁷ “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? ¹⁸ But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. ¹⁹ For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. ²⁰ These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

Matthew 18 (NIV)

" ¹⁵ Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. ¹⁶ They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. ¹⁷ Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax^[a] to Caesar or not?”
¹⁸ But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? ¹⁹ Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, ²⁰ and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”
²¹ “Caesar’s,” they replied.
   Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
²² When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away."

Matthew 23 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"¹ Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ² “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. ³ So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. ⁴ They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
   ⁵ “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries^[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; ⁶ they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; ⁷ they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
   ⁸ “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. ⁹ And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. ¹⁰ Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. ¹¹ The greatest among you will be your servant. ¹² For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.


¹³ “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. ^{[14] [b]
   15} “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
¹⁶ “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ ¹⁷ You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? ¹⁸ You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ ¹⁹ You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? ²⁰ Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. ²¹ And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. ²² And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
   ²³ “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. ²⁴ You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
   ²⁵ “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. ²⁶ Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
   ²⁷ “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. ²⁸ In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
   ²⁹ “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. ³⁰ And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ ³¹ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. ³² Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
   ³³ “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? ³⁴ Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. ³⁵ And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. ³⁶ Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
   ³⁷ “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. ³⁸ Look, your house is left to you desolate. ³⁹ For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’^[Psalm 118:26^]”

Please feel free to quote Jesus' words as often as you like, because what Jesus says is true and I for one am not ashamed of any of his words.

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In the full quote the Prophet was referring to the Jews and Christians who took the graves of their saints for  places of worship by assigning some divine power to them, besides regularly giving offerings at the burial site. Here's the hadith in full:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ismail ibn Abi Hakim that he heard Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz say, "One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, 'May Allah fight the jews and the christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration . Two deens shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.' "  (Malik's Muwatta, Book 45, Number 45:5:17)

Have you read the biography, "When the Moon Split"?

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He didn't want them expelled, in his last will he called for the expulsion of pagans. Nowhere will you find a quotation where the Prophet ordered their expulsion. In fact he made many treaties with them and allowed the bishopry in Yemen to remain so long as they paid a poll tax called 'Jizya'. 'When The Moon Split' was an edited version Mubarakpuri's biographical account, and the latter made a mistake in his writing by including the jews and christians as 'the pagans' who were to be expelled. This was a fault on his part, as the Quran clearly distinguishes between the pagans and the 'people of the book' (jews and christians). And here's the actual will in its originality which Mubarakpuri didn't quote directly:

Again, have you read the biography "When the Moon Split"? It does say on page 307 it says "That same day, the Prophet ordered that all Jews, Christians, and polytheists be turned out from the Arabian peninsula." Do you disagree with this? If so, you need to talk to the Muslim who complied this biography.

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"Ibn Abbas said: '...And he left in his will prior to his demise three items: to get the pagans out of the Arab land, to reward the envoys the same way he used to reward them and I forgot the third one.'"(Bukhari, Vol.2, Al-Jihad Wal Siyar, page 118)

Some Jews and Christians were condemned that is true, but the upright who kept true to their divine scriptures are praised in the Quran:

"They are not alike; of the people of the Book is a group upright that they recite the signs of God all along the night, and prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day and enjoin goodness and forbid evil, and hasten to do good deeds; and these are of the righteous ones" (Quran 3:113-114)


If you merely copy and pasted your claims from a missionary website, well those guys have been exposed for forgery and deceptive polemics time and again. I wouldn't take my polemics from them.

I did not post anything from a website. I quoted from a Muslim biography about Muhammad. The title is When the Moon Split. Have you ever read it?

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Oh and a bit of relevant history for you, the pagans were expelled immediately following the Prophet's death but the Jews and Christians remained in their habitations until the second caliph Omar had them expelled.

Why did the second caliph Omar have them expelled please?

Peace and God bless you

[Dawood]

Christianlady, on 29 December 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

Hello Dawood,

Yes, in Christian beliefs, all people including Jews, should be well treated.

I don't know what is this Christian belief. If you say the teachings of Jesus Christ, then obviously yeah, like prophet Muhammad saaws. But as much as muslims try, they could never kill as many jews as christians have done.

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Have you ever read the biography "When the Moon Split"? On page 308, it says that Muhammad said "May the curse of Allah be upon the Jews and Christians" and wanted them expelled from Arabia. Jesus says to bless those who curse you. Jesus is Jewish, as well as Moses and King David and the Prophets, including Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, Hosea,...)

See the response of the brother.

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I have personally experienced animosity against me for being a Christian by Sunni Muslims. I do admit however that there does seem to be less animosity from Shia Muslims against Christians. However, there is still animosity against Christians who were Muslims, even by Shia Muslims.

Mentioning yourself and how you feel is a well known debate tactic to create sympathy for your cause but I wasn't talking about you. Your argument for muslims hating jews was that it's because jews don't accept Muhammad saaws as a prophet. I claimed, if this argument holds, why is there less animosity between muslims and christians (who also don't recognize Muhammad saaws) than between muslims and jews. Or are you claiming muslims hate christians as much as they hate jews now? First form your opinion, then come and debate because otherwise you will have to change your stance all the time and you'll look weak. Obviously, this involved deep reflection which you haven't done enough because otherwise you'd be screaming Ya Ali right now .

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Jesus never taught his followers to hate those who didn't believe in him. The apostles of Jesus and Jesus' disciples were Jewish, so why would they hate Jews?

Christian beliefs are the fulfillment of the Jewish Law and Prophets, because Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jewish Law and Prophets.

Gentile Christians who do not understand that are obviously not understanding what they believe... Jesus is Jewish.

Peace and God bless you

When did I claim Jesus was not of the jewish race? Please pinpoint the location. For sake of argument, I accepted your claim that muslims hate jews because jews don't accept Muhammad saaws as a prophet of God. I said, if this is true, the same can be said for the hatred of many christians for jews, namely that it roots in jews not accepting Jesus Christ as. It has nothing to do with Jesus being of the jewish race or not.

Again, be fair. Jesus Christ wouldn't appreciate dishonesty.

[Lanatin]

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Hello La'nat Ma Man,

I am not a missionary. I am a Christian lady who has never tried to convert any Muslim person. I do however, explain what I believe. Are you hostile to your Christian friends? Just curious.

I'm hostile to missionaries as i've been given a poor impression from them on the internet and have had many bad experiences with them in the past. I don't know why you'd assume i'd include my christian colleagues into this fold, please keep your emotions to yourself.

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About Jesus calling certain people vipers and hypocrites, I am not at all ashamed of Jesus' words. I will quote them for you.

Why waste reading time by quoting the long passages? I really don't need to know this, I simply used the example of Jesus' namecalling to show how it can be taken out of context to be in reference to all jews as you have done with the words of prophet Muhammad .

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As to the biography, I am quoting what it says. if you don't believe it says that, please feel free to read it yourself. If indeed Muhammad did not wish Allah to curse Jews and Christians, please show evidence to the contrary? Also, please feel free to post the context as to why. Thank you.

...

Have you read the biography, "When the Moon Split"?

...

Again, have you read the biography "When the Moon Split"? It does say on page 307 it says "That same day, the Prophet ordered that all Jews, Christians, and polytheists be turned out from the Arabian peninsula." Do you disagree with this? If so, you need to talk to the Muslim who complied this biography.

My God you have a hard time picking up information from my posts. I already told you 'When The Moon Split' is an edited version of Mubarakpuri's biographical account called 'The Sealed Nectar', the latter which i've read for myself.  I already told you how Mubairakpuri mistook the jews and christians to be in the fold of paganism by quoting the original sources for your eyes to read, and you give me the same old replies like a programmed robot. Read the full quotation in my last post carefully, and take note of what the Quranic verse I quoted says. I am not repeating the same references again, please read carefully.

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Why did the second caliph Omar have them expelled please?

Peace and God bless you

Just so you know I mentioned this to show you how the pagans were differentiated from the Jews and Christians. He expelled the Jews who were living in Khaybar because part of the peace treaty agreed between the Prophet and the jews after the battle of Khaibar was that they could be expelled if deemed necessary. However the jewish farmers were never expelled as long as the Prophet lived, but when it came to Omar he decided that the Jews and Christians were not needed for the muslims' service so he expelled them to Iraq (which was by then conquered by the muslims in the battle of Qadisiyyah). However there seems to be a lot of doubt by secular historians (musim and non-muslim) on whether the bishopry in Yemen was ever toppled by Omar as traces of their authority seemed to exist right up to the 9th Century AD (two centuries after the Prophet's death). The Christians may have been a different case (ill bring the original sources for you to see whether it was just the jews or both the jews and christians who were expelled).

[Christianlady]

Dawood, on 29 December 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

I don't know what is this Christian belief. If you say the teachings of Jesus Christ, then obviously yeah, like prophet Muhammad saaws.

Hello Dawood,

So then, hating Jews is against what Muhammad says? Could you please quote Muhammad's teachings concerning Jews please? Thanks.

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But as much as muslims try, they could never kill as many jews as christians have done.

I think the reason for that is because most Gentile "Christians" who have killed people (including Jews and Muslims and other Christians) first of all, don't understand Jesus' teachings, and second of all, are from cultures where warfare is a part of the culture.  European people (and now the USA, whose leadership has been of European ancestry) are known for making weapons and for warfare, including to this day. Sad to say, this doesn't follow Jesus' teachings, but it is most definitely a reason why "as much as muslims try, they could never kill as many jews as christians have done"

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See the response of the brother.

Have you read the biography "When the Moon Split'? I wonder if either you or him have read it.

His reply did raise in me the question of why the caliph Omar expelled the Jews and Christians from Arabia. Do you know why?

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Mentioning yourself and how you feel is a well known debate tactic to create sympathy for your cause but I wasn't talking about you.

I can only speak for my personal experience. If other Christians would like to speak from their personal experience, i would like to read their experiences.

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Your argument for muslims hating jews was that it's because jews don't accept Muhammad saaws as a prophet.

I do question if that is the reason, yes.

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I claimed, if this argument holds, why is there less animosity between muslims and christians (who also don't recognize Muhammad saaws) than between muslims and jews. Or are you claiming muslims hate christians as much as they hate jews now?

Hmm. Do Muslims hate Christians as much as they hate Jews now? If you would like to answer, please feel free to. That is a good question. I would also like to ask Christians, especially in Muslim dominated countries, if they experience hatred from Muslims. Do you know any Christians in Muslim dominated countries who can say if they experienced hatred or care from the Muslims around them?

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First form your opinion, then come and debate because otherwise you will have to change your stance all the time and you'll look weak.

My goal is to learn, as well as to explain what I believe. I could care less if anyone thinks I look "weak."

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Obviously, this involved deep reflection which you haven't done enough because otherwise you'd be screaming Ya Ali right now

I don't understand your statement above. Why would I scream Ya Ali? I'm not a Muslim.

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When did I claim Jesus was not of the jewish race?

You didn't. However, you did make the point that Christians hate Jews. However, I was pointing out that Jesus is Jewish and the apostles of Jesus are Jewish, as well as the apostles. The first Christians (and many Chrsitians today) are Jewish. So why would they hate Jews? Gentile Chrisitans who hate Jews obviously do not understand this concept.

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Please pinpoint the location. For sake of argument, I accepted your claim that muslims hate jews because jews don't accept Muhammad saaws as a prophet of God. I said, if this is true, the same can be said for the hatred of many christians for jews, namely that it roots in jews not accepting Jesus Christ as. It has nothing to do with Jesus being of the jewish race or not.

Again, Jesus (a Jew) taught his followers (Jewish people) to love others. He did not teach them to hate those who rejected him, so Gentile Christians who hate Jews do not understand Jesus' teachings and the fact that Jesus and his apostles/disciples are Jewish.

Quote

Again, be fair. Jesus Christ wouldn't appreciate dishonesty.

Agreed. Jesus told the Truth and taught his followers to love each other and to love their enemies.

Peace and God bless you

[Lanatin]

Christianlady if you haven't noticed already I responded to you above.

Edited by La'nat Ma Man, 29 December 2011 - 03:31 PM.

[Zarbolmasal]

Excuse me for being late and a little out of context, and I would not mind if you dont respond.

Christianlady, on 28 December 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

That is fascinating, isn't it? Is Judaism the only group that is both religious and ethnic at the same time? I don't recall any other group that is both an ethnicity and belief.

No, there are other ethnoreligious sects around the world, but the most significant one is Judaism.

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Sadly, there are Jewish people who don't believe in God. So in that case, they are Jewish by ethnicity only, and not by belief.

Yes, it is sad. There are Jews who are atheist. There are christian or Moslems who are still Jew. Jewish identity is something complicated.

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Many Christians believe it is the right of Jewish people to live in Israel.

I object.

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God led the children of Israel (Abraham's son Isaac's son Jacob's 12 sons) out of slavery in Egypt to the Promised Land through Moses

Can you believe this? I mean how on earth is it possible that God would promise a land to group of people forever? Is it fair?
I can obviously see some traces of myth in this, which perfectly goes with very state of being ethnoreligious.

[Lanatin]

EDIT: I think the confusion on your part stems from the fact that you're unaware that Mubarakpuri's biographical account was a collection of all the accounts written about the Prophet's life in a diverse range of books, from the earliest biography written 100 years after the prophet's death (Sira Ibn Ishaq) to the reports written in Bukhari over 200 years after the Prophet's death. I'm giving you the original narration from these books Saif Mubarakpuri used in his biography (written in the late 1800's I believe).

[Christianlady]

La, on 29 December 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

I'm hostile to missionaries as i've been given a poor impression from them on the internet and have had many bad experiences with them in the past. I don't know why you'd assume i'd include my christian colleagues into this fold, please keep your emotions to yourself.

Hello La'nat Ma Man,

First of all, I am not a missionary. I am a Christian lady. Maybe you should invite your Christian friends on the forum? Christians who are not missionaries get on forums too, not just missionaries. if you wanted to ask if I was a missionary, you can ask. I will answer right now. I am a Christian lady who is a teacher and tutor. I teach Spanish. I am not a missionary. I got curious about Muslims after 9/11, and was on a Sunni forum for awhile till I was banned for saying that Muhammad was a false prophet, which is what I believe. I have never asked a Muslim to become a Christian, which is what missionaries do. Missionaries ask people to convert. If you would like to label me, I am an apologist. Have you ever heard of this term? There is a difference between missionaries and apologists,

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Why waste reading time by quoting the long passages? I really don't need to know this, I simply used the example of Jesus' namecalling to show how it can be taken out of context to be in reference to all jews as you have done with the words of prophet Muhammad .

So Muhammad didn't say "May the curse of Allah be upon the Jews and Christians"? If he didn't, then why did the Muslim biography "When the Moon Split" say he did? As to the context, if you read the book, you can see the context. It's on pages 306-310.

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My God you have a hard time picking up information from my posts. I already told you 'When The Moon Split' is an edited version of Mubarakpuri's biographical account called 'The Sealed Nectar', the latter which i've read for myself.  I already told you how Mubairakpuri mistook the jews and christians to be in the fold of paganism by quoting the original sources for your eyes to read, and you give me the same old replies like a programmed robot. Read the full quotation in my last post carefully, and take note of what the Quranic verse I quoted says. I am not repeating the same references again, please read carefully.

I understand the difference between pagans and Jews and Christians. However, your explanation does not answer the question if Muhammad did specifically say "May the curse of Allah be upon the Jews and Christians" or not. Did Muhammad say "May the curse of Allah be upon the pagans"? Do you understand how it is the specific curse against Jews and Christians that I have the question about?

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Just so you know I mentioned this to show you how the pagans were differentiated from the Jews and Christians. He expelled the Jews who were living in Khaybar because part of the peace treaty agreed between the Prophet and the jews after the battle of Khaibar was that they could be expelled if deemed necessary. However the jewish farmers were never expelled as long as the Prophet lived, but when it came to Omar he decided that the Jews and Christians were not needed for the muslims' service so he expelled them to Iraq (which was by then conquered by the muslims in the battle of Qadisiyyah). However there seems to be a lot of doubt by secular historians (musim and non-muslim) on whether the bishopry in Yemen was ever toppled by Omar as traces of their authority seemed to exist right up to the 9th Century AD (two centuries after the Prophet's death). The Christians may have been a different case (ill bring the original sources for you to see whether it was just the jews or both the jews and christians who were expelled).

Thanks for explaining about that. Yes I'd like you to bring the original sources. Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

Zarbolmasal, on 29 December 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

Excuse me for being late and a little out of context, and I would not mind if you dont respond.

Hello Zarbolmasal,

It's ok... I understand you are busy - no worries. I don't understand what you mean about  not minding if I don't respond. Do you not want me to respond?

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No, there are other ethnoreligious sects around the world, but the most significant one is Judaism.

What are other ethnoreligious sects please?

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Yes, it is sad. There are Jews who are atheist. There are christian or Moslems who are still Jew. Jewish identity is something complicated.

Aye, the apostles of Jesus are Jewish and the disciples of Jesus are Jewish too... the Jewish believers are the first Christians and were actually surprised when Gentiles started following Jesus too. Acts talks about that.

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I object.

Why please?

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Can you believe this? I mean how on earth is it possible that God would promise a land to group of people forever? Is it fair?
I can obviously see some traces of myth in this, which perfectly goes with very state of being ethnoreligious.

I do believe it, so I guess I can believe it. God's plans on according to His will, not mine. Fair is something I got over a long time ago. For example, to me it's not fair when a baby dies. However, God knows and I trust in God, even when life isn't fair. About my belief that God promised the land to (Jacob) Israel's descendants, I am a Gentile. I have never been to Israel but would like to someday to walk where Jesus walked. Jesus walked in Israel! He taught in the Temple in Jerusalem! He was born in Bethlehem! So, of course I'd like to visit. However, I do not want to live there. I was born in the USA. I have no idea when my ancestors immigrated here. My ancestors are from England, Ireland, and Scotland. It makes me really sad when I learned that my ancestors and others killed Native Americans and took their land. I don't know if this means I should move back to England/Ireland?Scotland? What do you think? My parents didn't do it. They were born here, like me. My grandparents also were born here. My great grandparents also were born here. I personally don't  know when my ancestors came here. Should the Native Americans have had the land called the USA for ever? I don't know. God knows everything though, and even though I wish that the Europeans hadn't killed Native Americans, I do wish that they had learned to live in peace with the Native Americans, like in the First Thanksgiving when Native Americans helped the Pilgrims survive!

Peace and God bless you

[Lanatin]

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Hello La'nat Ma Man,

First of all, I am not a missionary. I am a Christian lady. Maybe you should invite your Christian friends on the forum? Christians who are not missionaries get on forums too, not just missionaries. if you wanted to ask if I was a missionary, you can ask. I will answer right now. I am a Christian lady who is a teacher and tutor. I teach Spanish. I am not a missionary. I got curious about Muslims after 9/11, and was on a Sunni forum for awhile till I was banned for saying that Muhammad was a false prophet, which is what I believe. I have never asked a Muslim to become a Christian, which is what missionaries do. Missionaries ask people to convert. If you would like to label me, I am an apologist. Have you ever heard of this term? There is a difference between missionaries and apologists,

Yes I know what apologists are, and i'm just commenting on my attitude towards missionaries and admit I was wrong for suggesting you were a missionary of some kind.

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So Muhammad didn't say "May the curse of Allah be upon the Jews and Christians"? If he didn't, then why did the Muslim biography "When the Moon Split" say he did? As to the context, if you read the book, you can see the context. It's on pages 306-310.

Dear oh dear, you have a big problem trying to read. I told you for the umpteenth time i've read the biography, and i'm not denying that he said this and I gave you the original quote in full . Please take the time to read it once more:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ismail ibn Abi Hakim that he heard Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz say, "One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, 'May Allah fight the jews and the christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration . Two deens shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.' " (Malik's Muwatta, Book 45, Number 45:5:17)


Perhaps my last post will clear the confusion on your part:

I think the confusion on your part stems from the fact that you're unaware that Mubarakpuri's biographical account was a collection of all the accounts written about the Prophet's life in a diverse range of books, from the earliest biography written 100 years after the prophet's death (Sira Ibn Ishaq) to the reports written in Bukhari over 200 years after the Prophet's death. I'm giving you the original narration from these books Saif Mubarakpuri used in his biography (written in the late 1800's I believe).

Quote

Hello Dawood,

So then, hating Jews is against what Muhammad says? Could you please quote Muhammad's teachings concerning Jews please? Thanks.

Let me quote myself again so you can fully digest what i've been trying to push down your memory:

'When The Moon Split' was an edited version Mubarakpuri's biographical account, and the latter made a mistake in his writing by including the jews and christians as 'the pagans' who were to be expelled. This was a fault on his part, as the Quran clearly distinguishes between the pagans and the 'people of the book' (jews and christians). And here's the actual will in its originality which Mubarakpuri didn't quote directly:

"Ibn Abbas said: '...And he left in his will prior to his demise three items: to get the pagans out of the Arab land, to reward the envoys the same way he used to reward them and I forgot the third one.'"(Bukhari, Vol.2, Al-Jihad Wal Siyar, page 118)

Some Jews and Christians were condemned that is true, but the upright who kept true to their divine scriptures are praised in the Quran:

"They are not alike; of the people of the Book is a group upright that they recite the signs of God all along the night, and prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day and enjoin goodness and forbid evil, and hasten to do good deeds; and these are of the righteous ones" (Quran 3:113-114)

[Christianlady]

La, on 29 December 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:

Yes I know what apologists are, and i'm just commenting on my attitude towards missionaries and admit I was wrong for suggesting you were a missionary of some kind.

Hello La'nat Ma Man,

Thanks. I think we both have an interesting time understanding each other! I am sorry and was wrong for thinking you hated Christians a couple of days ago. We don't know each other very well, but I guess the more we write, the more we hopefully will understand each other, though of course we will disagree on different things.

Quote

Dear oh dear, you have a big problem trying to read. I told you for the umpteenth time i've read the biography, and i'm not denying that he said this and I gave you the original quote in full . Please take the time to read it once more:


Yahya related to me from Malik from Ismail ibn Abi Hakim that he heard Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz say, "One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, 'May Allah fight the jews and the christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration . Two deens shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.' " (Malik's Muwatta, Book 45, Number 45:5:17)

Ok, so let me get this straight... the biography " When the Moon Split" is wrong. Muhammad didn't say "May the curse of Allah be upon the Jews and Christians". Rather, he said "May Allah fight the Jews and the Christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostation. Two deens shall not co-exist int he land of the Arabs." Is that right? Have I got it now?

Is Mali's Muwatta a hadith?

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Perhaps my last post will clear the confusion on your part:

I'll look for it.

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I think the confusion on your part stems from the fact that you're unaware that Mubarakpuri's biographical account was a collection of all the accounts written about the Prophet's life in a diverse range of books, from the earliest biography written 100 years after the prophet's death (Sira Ibn Ishaq) to the reports written in Bukhari over 200 years after the Prophet's death. I'm giving you the original narration from these books Saif Mubarakpuri used in his biography (written in the late 1800's I believe).

Oh ok. Yes I didn't know that. All I know is a Muslim encouraged me to read "When the Moon Split", and I did.

Quote

Let me quote myself again so you can fully digest what i've been trying to push down your memory:

Lol. I'm so sorry. I'm not trying to be difficult!

Quote

'When The Moon Split' was an edited version Mubarakpuri's biographical account, and the latter made a mistake in his writing by including the jews and christians as 'the pagans' who were to be expelled. This was a fault on his part, as the Quran clearly distinguishes between the pagans and the 'people of the book' (jews and christians). And here's the actual will in its originality which Mubarakpuri didn't quote directly:

"Ibn Abbas said: '...And he left in his will prior to his demise three items: to get the pagans out of the Arab land, to reward the envoys the same way he used to reward them and I forgot the third one.'"(Bukhari, Vol.2, Al-Jihad Wal Siyar, page 118)

Some Jews and Christians were condemned that is true, but the upright who kept true to their divine scriptures are praised in the Quran:

"They are not alike; of the people of the Book is a group upright that they recite the signs of God all along the night, and prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day and enjoin goodness and forbid evil, and hasten to do good deeds; and these are of the righteous ones" (Quran 3:113-114)

Ok, I think I got it. The author of "When the Moon Split" was wrong about that quote. I got it now?

Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 29 December 2011 - 03:58 PM.

[Zarbolmasal]

Christianlady, on 29 December 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:

Hello Zarbolmasal,

It's ok... I understand you are busy - no worries. I don't understand what you mean about  not minding if I don't respond. Do you not want me to respond?

Hello.
No I explained the reason first. I'm a little out of context. So I consider going on with my discussion later. Moreover you didnt respond to the most important part of my quotation: "I can obviously see some traces of myth in this, which perfectly goes with very state of being ethnoreligious." And it is midnight in here.

[ShiaBen]

Time to satirize this thread.

Christianlady, why do some Jews celebrate the deaths of Muslims around the world? Why do they celebrate the Srebrenica massacre like its a Bar Mitzvah? Why are they proud of killing innocent Turkish Muslims who were on the route to bring food to Gaza? Why do they celebrate the war and destruction they caused in Lebanon? Why are they proud of exploiting Eastern Europe? Why are proud of exploiting U.S. taxes and resources?

[Christianlady]

Zarbolmasal, on 29 December 2011 - 04:01 PM, said:

Hello.
No I explained the reason first. I'm a little out of context. So I consider going on with my discussion later. Moreover you didnt respond to the most important part of my quotation: "I can obviously see some traces of myth in this, which perfectly goes with very state of being ethnoreligious." And it is midnight in here.

Hello Zarbolmasal,

Oh. About ""I can obviously see some traces of myth in this, which perfectly goes with very state of being ethnoreligious.", my response would be that it isn't myth, but if you'd like to share why you believe it to be myth, I would read as to why you think so.

Here where I live it is 4:06 pm, and I need to go soon and make dinner.

Peace and God bless you

ShiaBen, on 29 December 2011 - 04:05 PM, said:

Time to satirize this thread.

Christianlady, why do some Jews celebrate the deaths of Muslims around the world? Why do they celebrate the Srebrenica massacre like its a Bar Mitzvah? Why are they proud of killing innocent Turkish Muslims who were on the route to bring food to Gaza? Why do they celebrate the war and destruction they caused in Lebanon? Why are they proud of exploiting Eastern Europe? Why are proud of exploiting U.S. taxes and resources?

Hello Shiaben,

I think it'd be good to ask Jewish people those quesitons. I was not aware that they celebrated Muslims' deaths?

As an American, I am aware that Americans rejoiced when Saddam Hussein was toppled, and it does sadden me to hear that many (not all!) American soldiers kill Muslims... I am against the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq and I hope that the USA doesn't attack any other place.)

However, why Jews celebrate Muslim's deaths, I was not aware that was the case. Could you provide evidence please?

About exploiting Europe and the USA? Gentiles do that too... it's not a Jewish-only thing.

Thankfully, there are Jewish people and Gentile people who don't exploit places, but live how they believe God wants them to. I have to go now.

Peace and God bless you

[ShiaBen]

Take for example, on youtube, a radio talk show host (can't find the link, seems like it's taken off), started praising the Serbs for massacring Bosnian Muslims. And even went as far to call the Bosnian Muslims terrorists out of the blue.

What I'm trying to get across is. Why do you perceive that Muslims hate Jews? I mean, "hate" itself is a pretty strong words. Dislike would have been a better word. But the fact that you used the word "hate" implies that all Muslims around the world, want to murder Jews and clean their hands with their blood, which is not the case.

In Iran, there are 30,000 Jews peacefully coexisting with Iranian Muslims and Christians. In Syria, there have been ten or so synagogues built for the local Jewish population, to prevent them from leaving since they're an open minded country.

So the thing is, when you create a thread, about Muslims hating Jews, you can create similar threads for just about any other situation. And how often do you see hate crimes committed by Muslims against Jews in the Western World? The word "hate" is a strong word, so make sure you use it right, otherwise it conveys a completely different meaning.

Peace and God bless you, too...

[Lanatin]

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Hello La'nat Ma Man,

Thanks. I think we both have an interesting time understanding each other! I am sorry and was wrong for thinking you hated Christians a couple of days ago. We don't know each other very well, but I guess the more we write, the more we hopefully will understand each other, though of course we will disagree on different things.

Ya, hopefully things will get sorted out and my paranoia will be tamed.

Quote

Ok, so let me get this straight... the biography " When the Moon Split" is wrong. Muhammad didn't say "May the curse of Allah be upon the Jews and Christians". Rather, he said "May Allah fight the Jews and the Christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostation. Two deens shall not co-exist int he land of the Arabs." Is that right? Have I got it now?

Is Mali's Muwatta a hadith?

Well there are usually variants of the same narration, and i've just checked Mubarakpuri's biography of the Prophet and have found the hadith you partially quoted:

Quote

"The curse of Allah falls upon the Jews and Christians for they have made their Prophets' tombs places of worship."
[Sahih Al-Bukhari 1/62; Mustta' Imam
Malik p.360]  

  

It pretty much says the same thing as Malik's Muwatta; those who started assigning special powers to graves, prayed towards their directions and gave them offerings were condemned as heretical. Obviously not every jew and christian in history has done this, and it's the same case with the pharisees of Jesus' time - not every Jew in history is a hypocrite and viper. Please quote a hadith in its full form so it can be put in its proper context.  As for jews in general, the Quran has recognized the righteous among them and has praised them in the aforementioned verse.  

Malik's Muwatta is a book that primarily deals with religious jurisprudence and mentions Imam Malik's edicts and the edicts of the Prophet's companions, besides some sporadic hadiths then and there.  

I quoted the original source that showed the Prophet's will was to expel the pagans from Arabia, and that history and linguistics testifies to the fact that pagans were differentiated from Jews and Christians.  

Edit: Oh and the 'people of the book' mentioned in the Quran are the jews and christians.

Edited by La'nat Ma Man, 29 December 2011 - 05:17 PM.

[Dawood]

Christianlady, on 29 December 2011 - 03:21 PM, said:

Hello Dawood,

So then, hating Jews is against what Muhammad says? Could you please quote Muhammad's teachings concerning Jews please? Thanks.

When you read Hadith of the prophet Muhammad saaws about jews, you should distinguish between three groups:
1. Judaism
2. Jews who act contrary to the divine laws
3. Jews in general

I don't know of any hadith which are about the third group. The prophet did however, speak about group 1 and especially group 2. And if he talks about the second group he calls them jews. This is often misinterpreted as if he is speaking about all jews in general. I guess it was the culture of the time to call someone from Africa a black man. It would be strange today, but a way of speaking back then.

By the way, the burden of proof lies with the one who claims something which was you.

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I think the reason for that is because most Gentile "Christians" who have killed people (including Jews and Muslims and other Christians) first of all, don't understand Jesus' teachings, and second of all, are from cultures where warfare is a part of the culture.  European people (and now the USA, whose leadership has been of European ancestry) are known for making weapons and for warfare, including to this day. Sad to say, this doesn't follow Jesus' teachings, but it is most definitely a reason why "as much as muslims try, they could never kill as many jews as christians have done"

Don't act as if only these so called Gentile Christians hate(d) jews. There are many christians who hate jews. However, I believe if Jesus Christ as. would be alive today, he would condemn it. So there's not really a reason to argue here.

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Have you read the biography "When the Moon Split'? I wonder if either you or him have read it.

His reply did raise in me the question of why the caliph Omar expelled the Jews and Christians from Arabia. Do you know why?

No I haven't. I leave that discussion to you and the brothers and focus on ours so I can give it more attention.

Quote

I can only speak for my personal experience. If other Christians would like to speak from their personal experience, i would like to read their experiences.

Understandable but unfortunately the human being has the weakness of complaining when the situation is (perceived as) bad and not bringing it out to the public when it's good. Just like people who are ill ask God to cure them as soon as possible, but once they're cured, they tend to forget about Him.

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I do question if that is the reason, yes.


Hmm. Do Muslims hate Christians as much as they hate Jews now? If you would like to answer, please feel free to. That is a good question. I would also like to ask Christians, especially in Muslim dominated countries, if they experience hatred from Muslims. Do you know any Christians in Muslim dominated countries who can say if they experienced hatred or care from the Muslims around them?

I think you know yourself that there is less animosity between muslims and christians than between muslims and jews. As some brothers have noted previously, as muslims we shouldn't hate judaism but zionism. The relationship between muslims and jews has deteriorated in a fast way since the facist state of Israel came into being. I think some (ignorant) muslims confuse judaism with zionism. They see the atrocities the zionist regime is committing and therefore they are blaming the jews. This is my answer to the main question posed by you (topic title).

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My goal is to learn, as well as to explain what I believe. I could care less if anyone thinks I look "weak."

If this is true, it's honorable.

Quote

I don't understand your statement above. Why would I scream Ya Ali? I'm not a Muslim.

If you reflect more about life, Islam and Christianity, you'll get there. Don't worry.

Quote

You didn't. However, you did make the point that Christians hate Jews. However, I was pointing out that Jesus is Jewish and the apostles of Jesus are Jewish, as well as the apostles. The first Christians (and many Chrsitians today) are Jewish. So why would they hate Jews? Gentile Chrisitans who hate Jews obviously do not understand this concept.

Again, Jesus (a Jew) taught his followers (Jewish people) to love others. He did not teach them to hate those who rejected him, so Gentile Christians who hate Jews do not understand Jesus' teachings and the fact that Jesus and his apostles/disciples are Jewish.

Again, there are many christians who hate jews but Jesus Christ is not to blame. However, since you asked why muslims hate jews, we can't only delve into the religious scriptures. Even if we agree that it might be the case (which I don't believe), even then the question is whether it's about the religion. I believe it's much more due to politics (the Zionist state) than religion. Similarly, I can ask why christians hate jews. I claim that the hating of jews by christians is more ideologically founded than the so called hatred of muslims towards jews. This is because many christians (wrongfully) hate jews because they believe they were the ones who put him on the cross.

Quote

Agreed. Jesus told the Truth and taught his followers to love each other and to love their enemies.

Peace and God bless you

More or less agreed. I don't believe Jesus Christ preached unlimited love to all enemies at all times but that's another discussion.

May God increase wisdom in all of us and lead us to the right path.

[Zarbolmasal]

Zarbolmasal, on 29 December 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

Can you believe this? I mean how on earth is it possible that God would promise a land to group of people forever? Is it fair?
I can obviously see some traces of myth in this, which perfectly goes with very state of being ethnoreligious.

Here I'm not talking about God's plans. Sure, God does not do anything unfair. How God has wanted this world to be I think is higher than fair or unfair.
Anyway this wasn't the purpose of my rhetorical questions. Here I'm talking about something people might believe to be god's plan when it's not. I posed those questions so that you ask yourself how God could allow something unfair?

Consider these examples,
If one day I slap across your face and tell you it is God's will, would you accept it?
Or another day I came in front of your house with a bulldozer and tell you that I want to destroy your house because God has promised this land to me and this is GOD's WILL to destroy it, would you accept it?
This is the sad story of Israel and Palestine.

That's why I believe the true story of promised land has been exaggerated and mythologized.

[Christianlady]

La, on 29 December 2011 - 05:14 PM, said:

Ya, hopefully things will get sorted out and my paranoia will be tamed.

Hello La'nat Ma Man,

Lol. I am beginning to see that yes you are very sarcastic. In the Christian section, could you please explain and describe your issues with missionaries? I am curious about that. I've been raised all my life in a Christian family and surrounded by Christians, so I have no idea how a person from another belief reacts to missionaries, or their experiences with them, except for what I hear at church from visiting missionaries who show pictures and talk about their missions and ask for donations.

As to the rest of the thread, I cannot reply now. If God wills, I hope to reply to people later, though it probably will be next week, because my husband and I are going to visit his brother's family again for New Years weekend.

Peace and God bless you

[Dawood]

Christianlady, on 30 December 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:

Hello La'nat Ma Man,

Lol. I am beginning to see that yes you are very sarcastic. In the Christian section, could you please explain and describe your issues with missionaries? I am curious about that. I've been raised all my life in a Christian family and surrounded by Christians, so I have no idea how a person from another belief reacts to missionaries, or their experiences with them, except for what I hear at church from visiting missionaries who show pictures and talk about their missions and ask for donations.

As to the rest of the thread, I cannot reply now. If God wills, I hope to reply to people later, though it probably will be next week, because my husband and I are going to visit his brother's family again for New Years weekend.

Peace and God bless you

Take your time. I know how it is to be alone in a forum and to have to reply to many people.

[Zarbolmasal]

Christianlady, on 29 December 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:

Why please?

Because it is not enough to be a Christian to claim that "many Christians believe it is the right of Jewish people to live in Israel". You have no evidence.

Quote

What are other ethnoreligious sects please?

Check out http://en.wikipedia....religious_group. Not a matter of discussion.

And Merry Christmas.

Edited by Zarbolmasal, 31 December 2011 - 03:37 AM.