188 replies to this topic

[aliasghark]

People are generally responsible for their own actions in Islam, not their grandparents'.

Quote

Christianlady: From what I have heard, Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth. At least, this is what media tells us.

aliasghark: Citation needed.

Christianlady: Here is a youtube about it and an article

Neither of your attempts have shown any entity or person 'threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth'. Citation still needed.

*crickets*

I take it you're unable to back up your claim, Christianlady?

[Christianlady]

aliasghark, on 25 January 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

People are generally responsible for their own actions in Islam, not their grandparents'.



I take it you're unable to back up your claim, Christianlady?

Hello Aliasghark,

Maybe you did not see my earlier post with the youtube and the new york times article?

Included in this post are quotations from the following article:

Did Ahmadinejad really say Israel should be ‘wiped off the map’?"

"Then, specialists such as Juan Coleof the University of Michigan and  Arash Norouzi of the Mossadegh Projectpointed out that the original statement in Persian did not say that Israel should be wiped from the map, but instead that it would collapse.
Cole said this week that in the 1980s Khomeini gave a speech in which he said in Persian “Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” This means, “This occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the arena of time.” But then anonymous wire service translators rendered Khomeini as saying that Israel “must be wiped off the face of the map,” which Cole and Nourouzi say is inaccurate.
Ahmadinejad slightly misquoted Khomeini, substituting “safheh-i ruzgar,” or “page of time" for "sahneh-i ruzgar" or “arena of time.” But in any case, the old translation was dug up and used again by the Iranian news agency, Cole says. In fact, that’s how it was presented for years on Ahmadinejad’s English-language Web site, as the Times noted in a somewhat defensive article on the translation debate.
But the story doesn’t end there. Karim Sadjadpour, an Iranian specialist at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, notes that Iranian government entities began to erect billboards and signs with the “wipe off” phrase in English. Joshua Teitelbaum of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs compiled an interesting collection of photographs of these banners, such as one on the building that houses reserve military forces of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. “Israel should be wiped out of the face of the world,” the sign reads in English.
Teitelbaum’s report, while written from a pro-Israel perspective, includes a number of threatening statements about Israel that are similar in tone to Ahmadinejad’s controversial statement.
In 2000, Khamenei stated, “Iran’s position, which was first expressed by the Imam [Khomeini] and stated several times by those responsible, is that the cancerous tumor called Israel must be uprooted from the region.” He went on to say in the same speech that “Palestinian refugees should return and Muslims, Christians and Jews could choose a government for themselves, excluding immigrant Jews.”
Sadjadpour, who has closely studied the statements of Khamenei, said that the supreme leader has spoken more on the question of Israel than any other issue, which is remarkable given that Iran shares no border with Israel and that the Jewish state has virtually no impact on the daily lives of Iranians. Sadjadpour said Khamenei has been consistent, stating repeatedly that the goal is not the military destruction of the Jewish state but “the defeat of Zionist ideology and the dissolution of Israel through a ‘popular referendum.’”
Of course, an Israeli might conclude that such an outcome would be the destruction of the Jewish state in any case."

Using deductive reasoning, people can conclude that the governmnet of Iran hates the government of Israel and want it to be destroyed.

Please check out the link in the following paragraph quoted from the online article: (You can find this article at http://www.washingto...JIKML_blog.html

" But the story doesn’t end there. Karim Sadjadpour, an Iranian specialist at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, notes that Iranian government entities began to erect billboards and signs with the “wipe off” phrase in English. Joshua Teitelbaum of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs compiled an interesting collection of photographs of these banners, such as one on the building that houses reserve military forces of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. “Israel should be wiped out of the face of the world,” the sign reads in English."

Peace and God bless you

[aliasghark]

Quote

Christianlady: From what I have heard, Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth. At least, this is what media tells us.
aliasghark: Citation needed.
Christianlady: Here is a youtube about it and an article
aliasghark: Neither of your attempts have shown any entity or person 'threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth'. Citation still needed.
*crickets*
aliasghark: I take it you're unable to back up your claim, Christianlady?
Christianlady: Maybe you did not see my earlier post with the youtube and the new york times article?

I did see your post and the article and video linked in it, Christianlady. You can verify I acknowledged it by scrolling up.

As I said, none of your attempts support your claim that 'Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth' (you claimed your 'media' tells you that; none of the 'media' you've brought here says it).

[Christianlady]

aliasghark, on 28 January 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

I did see your post and the article and video linked in it, Christianlady. You can verify I acknowledged it by scrolling up.

As I said, none of your attempts support your claim that 'Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth' (you claimed your 'media' tells you that; none of the 'media' you've brought here says it).

Hello Alisaghark,

When debating, just commenting does not prove your point. Could you please provide reasons and evidence to support those reasons?

Also, could you please read the article by Joshua Teitelbaum and provide evidence as to why or why not you do not agree with it?

Thank you.

Peace and God bless you

[aliasghark]

Christianlady, on 28 January 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

When debating, just commenting does not prove your point. Could you please provide reasons and evidence to support those reasons?

Reasons for what?

[Christianlady]

aliasghark, on 28 January 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Reasons for what?

Hello Aliasghark,

Reasons for your above statement are what I am asking for, as well as evidence as to why you think so.

Also, please read Joshua Teitelbaum's article "What Iranian Leaders Really Say About Doing Away with Israel" , which includes pictures of signs that promote the destruction of Israel. You can find the link to his article on the article

http://www.washingto...JIKML_blog.html

If you disagree with his article, please provide reasons and evidence for those reasons. Thank you

Peace and God bless you

[aliasghark]

Christianlady, on 28 January 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Reasons for your above statement are what I am asking for, as well as evidence as to why you think so.

Which statement? I made more than one post here.

[Greg Potemkin]

Christianlady, on 28 January 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Hello Aliasghark,

Maybe you did not see my earlier post with the youtube and the new york times article?

Included in this post are quotations from the following article:

CL, I think that Aliasghark's point is correct - you have not shown anyone in the Iranian government 'threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth' as you claimed.

Christianlady, on 28 December 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

From what I have heard, Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth.

You either didn't read very closely the subsequent article which you quoted, or you forgot the basic question at hand.

Wiping people off the earth usually means to kill them. The article you quoted accurately re-states the comments from Ahmadenezhad in Persian as “Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.”  which is translated as "This occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the arena of time.”

Obviously, there is a huge difference between calling for "people to be wiped off the earth," and calling for "a regime to vanish from the arena of time".

I doubt if you speak Persian, but you can see from the transliteration of the original Persian that he was referring to the "rezhime" or "regime", not to the "people", which would be "mardom" in Persian - I think.

q.e.d. - your claim about " Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth" is false, or at any rate has not been proven by the information you have provided.

By the way, i did read the   nonsensical article by Joshua Teitelbaum, and thought that it was typical Zionist jibberish.

Christianlady, on 28 December 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

Any country that suprresses/oppresses people of different beliefs need a change, however, Israel is not known for suppressing Christians. Even though I have never been there, I have Christian friends who have been there and have not experienced negative experiences from the Israelis, nor have they heard negative experiences from the Christians who live in Israel. Rather, they have had positive experiences, and Israel understands and allows Christians to tour Israel, because they understand Christians feel a connection through Jesus, who is Jewish and was an Israeli, who walked and talked on the earth in that location, while Israel was oppressed by the Romans.

I think that your friends who visited and made such statements probably took the guided tours where they were told all sorts of nonsense by tour-guide propogandists.. The Palestinian Christians that I have met had the same feelings toward the Zionist regime that their Muslim compatriots did.

By the way, Jesus would not have been classified as Jewish by the Israeli state, if he were there today, and when he lived, there was no state called Israel.

Edited by Greg Potemkin, 28 January 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[baradar_jackson]

"Some Muslims" should pick up a Qur'an.

[Christianlady]

El Cid, on 25 January 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

Isn't it true Bani Israel have murdered countless Prophets(a.s)? They tormented Musa(a.s), tried to kill Isa(a.s). If a young Prophet Muhammad(s.w) would've gone any further on his trade journey, they would've murdered him too as said by Bahira the Monk. They betrayed the Prophet(s.w) on numerous occasions and conspirced against Islam even after the death of the Prophet(s.w). They're a mischevious people. I know we're suppose to forgive and respect them, but there will always be some hate.

Hello El Cid,

The Chlldren of Israel are like any other group of people in that there are people who are obey God and there are people who don't. Moses was a child of Israel, a descendant of the tribe of Levi, son of Jacob (Israel) son of Isaac, son of Abraham. This, by the way, is one reason why most Jewish people who believe in God do not accept Muhammad's claims of prophethood, because Muhammad is not a child of Israel.

Anyways, just like all other groups of people, there are Israelis who obey God, and there are Israelis who don't.

Peace and God bless you

[Christianlady]

Greg Potemkin, on 28 January 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

CL, I think that Aliasghark's point is correct - you have not shown anyone in the Iranian government 'threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth' as you claimed.

Hello Greg Potemkin,

I have proved my claim through the articles I posted. My claim is that"from what I've heard, Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth. At least, this is what the media tells us." My claim is proven. If you doubt the media says this, please feel free to argue with the media.

Quote

You either didn't read very closely the subsequent article which you quoted, or you forgot the basic question at hand.

Wiping people off the earth usually means to kill them. The article you quoted accurately re-states the comments from Ahmadenezhad in Persian as “Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.”  which is translated as "This occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the arena of time.”

I deliberately searched for and found an article that is as objective as possible, stating both sides of this sad statement. Regardless of whether the translation from Iranian interpreters was correct or not, the hatred that Iranian government has against Israel's government, which is Jewish, is obvious.

Quote

Obviously, there is a huge difference between calling for "people to be wiped off the earth," and calling for "a regime to vanish from the arena of time".

Actually, they are very similar, which is why it was interpreted into that expression. If the US government said that they wanted the Iran regime to vanish from the arena of time, do you not undertand that would mean that the US government wants death for the Iranian government? There is not a huge difference. Native English speakers understand this. Wiping off the earth is an English expression, whereas "... to vanish from the arena of time" is not a common English expression, but the meaning is very much the same. (By the way, the US government has not said that. I am giving an example of an if scenario.)

Quote

I doubt if you speak Persian, but you can see from the transliteration of the original Persian that he was referring to the "rezhime" or "regime", not to the "people", which would be "mardom" in Persian - I think.

I do not speak Persian no. The international language of the world at the moment is not Persian, but English.

People make up a regime. A regime is not a computer, not a thing. A regime is a group of people and in the case of the Israeli "regime", that group of people happen to be Jewish.

Quote

q.e.d. - your claim about " Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth" is false, or at any rate has not been proven by the information you have provided.

Again,  "I have proved my claim through the articles I posted. My claim is that from what I've heard, Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth. At least, this is what the media tells us. My claim is proven. If you doubt the media says this, please feel free to argue with the media."

Quote

By the way, i did read the   nonsensical article by Joshua Teitelbaum, and thought that it was typical Zionist jibberish.

Insulting the article does in no way refute the article. Refuting the article includes providing proof that what he is saying is not true. I need proof, instead of insults against the article, in order to believe it to not be true.

Quote

I think that your friends who visited and made such statements probably took the guided tours where they were told all sorts of nonsense by tour-guide propogandists.. The Palestinian Christians that I have met had the same feelings toward the Zionist regime that their Muslim compatriots did.

What do the Palestian Christians you have met believe concerning Jesus' teachings on loving one's enemies? Sad to say, everywhere (not just in the USA), there are Christians who do not take seriously Jesus' commands to love.

Quote

By the way, Jesus would not have been classified as Jewish by the Israeli state, if he were there today, and when he lived, there was no state called Israel.

Do you understand that the Romans conquered Israel a long time ago, and that while Jesus lived, Israel did exist yet was under the oppression of the Roman conquerers? This is a fact of history. If you want, you can think of it like how the US invaded Iraq, though Iraq was still Iraq. Thank God that the US did not completely destroy Iraq, which is what Rome did to Israel. What Jesus prophesied came true... Rome completely destroyed Israel, though thank God many Israelis fled and became refugees, then citizens in other nations.

Please provide proof to your claims that Jesus would not have been classifed as Jewish by the Israeli state if he were there today and that when he lived, there was no state called Israel. Thank you.

Jesus, the son of Mary, an Israeli woman, is indeed an Israelite and the nation of Israel was alive and kicking when Jesus was there, though they were under invasion. They were not fond of the Roman invasion, much like many Afghanistan people and Iraqi people are not fond of the US invasions of their countries. One of the  reasons why many Jewish people who believe in God do not believe Jesus is the Messiah is because Jesus did not save the Israeli people from the Romans. They do not undersatnd that Jesus is coming again in order to save his people from their enemies.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 06 February 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[Lanatin]

^^ Talking with you is like talking to a brick wall, when your points are cornered you resort to them again in a never ending cycle of self-delusional flattery.

[AlphaMale_ASAD]

You must first dis align jews with zionist. Muslims have no problems with jews, and i have jewish friends. I dont treat them bad nor do i disrespect them, i think their actually hilarious. But they know the israel line is not to be crossed. Israel is a zionist piece of trash that should be wiped off the earth and thats not from ahmedinjad's lips those are from hakim abidAllah's lips. Israel is terrorist entity using the events of the manys who died during the holocaust,  the jews who died even tho they were the minority killed many people died during those years i.e. wars on the line of russia/europe i believe, anyways they use that event to remove the indeginous people of palestine as if they are native americans and israeli are colonist. Which is exactly what it is. there are thousands upon thousands jews in Iran who are treated fairly and have say in the government. They get funding for religious centers etc So to say we hate jews is inaccurate as christians have killed way more jews than muslims ever have, and jews have killed more muslims. Allah knows best.

[570]

Christianlady, on 06 February 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Hello Greg Potemkin,

I have proved my claim through the articles I posted. My claim is that"from what I've heard, Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth. At least, this is what the media tells us." My claim is proven. If you doubt the media says this, please feel free to argue with the media.

LOL! There is no need for you to talk in this forum, since you are here not for disscussion. Your missionary actions won't affect anyone here in ShiaChat.

Edited by аli, 06 February 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[aliasghark]

No Christianlady, you have not shown any evidence that backs your claim. When this was pointed out, you defended yourself by saying "When debating, just commenting does not prove your point. Could you please provide reasons and evidence to support those reasons?" haha

[Christianlady]

La, on 06 February 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

^^ Talking with you is like talking to a brick wall, when your points are cornered you resort to them again in a never ending cycle of self-delusional flattery.

Hello La'nat Ma Man,

How are you? Hope you are doing well. Have you invited your Christian friends to this forum? If you do, I would like to hear their opinions concerning what I write. Thank you. You are in my prayers.

Peace and God bless you

аli, on 06 February 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

LOL! There is no need for you to talk in this forum, since you are here not for disscussion. Your missionary actions won't affect anyone here in ShiaChat.

Hello Ali,

I am not a missionary.  A missionary is someone who tries to convert other people to their belief.  I am an apologist. An apologist is not a missionary. An apologist is someone who defends a belief or idea in speech or in writing.  You of course do not have to agree with me. Thank God, there are however some Muslim people on this forum who enjoy interfaith discussions and do not feel threatened by Christians or Jewish people who believe in God, who ask questions and who write about what they themselves believe. However, you are perfectly free to do as you wish. God is your Judge, same as God is mine.

Peace and God bless you

[aliasghark]

I wonder why Christianlady thinks ali feels threatened by her, heheh.

[Christianlady]

aliasghark, on 07 February 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

No Christianlady, you have not shown any evidence that backs your claim. When this was pointed out, you defended yourself by saying "When debating, just commenting does not prove your point. Could you please provide reasons and evidence to support those reasons?" haha

Hello Aliasghark,

I have shown several articles that show that an Iranian interpreter did indeed interpret the Iranian President Ahmadinejad' words as "wipe Israel off the map." People whose first language is English understand what this phrase means, hence the anger concerning the meaning. The alternative means the same.  Here is another article that talks about it. Whether you accept it or not is no longer my concern.
Denying the truth does not make the truth cease to exist.

In the article below, I boldened some.

http://www.theatlant...rael-map/43372/

"
The Washington Post's Glenn Kessler has a fascinating article today on the six-year dispute surrounding Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's declaration that Israel must be "wiped off the map"--a line that has become shorthand for Iran's belligerent (some would say genocidal) posture toward Israel. The quote first stirred controversy in 2005, when Nazila Fathi of The New York Times cited a report by the Iranian Students' News Agency on Ahmadinejad's remarks at a "World Without Zionism" conference (the Tehran-based Fathi later issued a full-text translation of Ahmadinejad's speech, and official Iranian sources like IRIB ran with the same translation). Since then, however, some have argued that Ahmadinejad was mistranslated, and that getting the translation right is critical to decoding the meaning behind the Iranian leader's incendiary words.
Here is the passage in question from Ahmadinejad's 2005 speech in Persian, rough transliteration, and Times translation (we've taken what appears to be the full line in Persian from an archived transcript of Ahmadinejad's address):

امام عزيز ما فرمودند كه اين رژيم اشغالگر قدس بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود
Imam ghoft een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Qods bayad az safheh-i ruzgar mahv shaved
Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map

Let's isolate the key phrases in the line:

• Imam ghoft: People generally agree that these words mean "our (dear) Imam said," and indicate that, instead of making a brazen, unprecedented proclamation, Ahmadinejad was quoting comments made by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the leader of the Islamic revolution, in the 1980s.
  
• een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Qods: Again, the literal translation here isn't really in question. These words are translated as some variation on "the regime occupying Jerusalem." But the meaning of the words is a matter of dispute. The liberal Middle East expert Juan Cole and the The Guardian's Jonathan Steele have argued that the phrasing suggests Ahmadinejad is calling for a change in the Israeli government rather than military action against Israel, especially since he was comparing regime change in Israel to regime change in Iran in 1979. But, as The Times puts it, others argue that the line "indicates the depth of the Iranian president's rejection of a Jewish state in the Middle East because he refuses even to utter the name Israel."
  
• mahv shaved: Cole, Steele, and the Mossadegh Project's Arash Norouzi have all disputed the Times' "wiped off" translation above, arguing that these words instead mean "vanish from." But an Iranian translator and consultant supported The Times' "wiped off" or "wiped away" rendering in 2006, asserting that the Persian verb is active and transitive (Cole says the verb construction is intransitive). At the time of Ahmadinejad's speech, the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translated the verb as "eliminated."
  
• safheh-i ruzgar: This is where things really get interesting. Ahmadinejad actually misquoted Khomeini, who used the phrase "sahneh-i ruzgar." As the Times noted several years ago, "sahneh" literally means "scene" or "stage" and "ruzgar" means "time," but translators in the 1980s interpreted Khomeini's words as a metaphorical reference to a "map"--an interpretation that stuck when Ahmadinejad substituted "sahneh" for "safheh," or "page." But the Cole-Steele-Norouzi trio recommends the literal translation of "page of time" (MEMRI, for its part, went with "pages of history"). Steele claims that the "page of time" phrase, along with the rest of his translation, suggests that the Iranian president was expressing a desire for an end to Israeli occupation at some point in the future. "He was not threatening an Iranian-initiated war to remove Israeli control over Jerusalem," Steele writes.

So there you have it. Depending on who you ask, Ahmadinejad was either endorsing Khomeini's battle cry for Israel to be wiped off the map or invoking Khomeini's wish that, someday, somehow, the Israeli government will collapse under its own weight. The varying translations, of course, may be inextricably linked to people's political views on Iran and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And some argue that the distinction is academic at this point. In a study for the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, Joshua Teitelbaum states that Ahmadinejad's public statements, taken as a whole, indicate that the Iranian leader is bent on the "actual physical destruction of the State of Israel," however one may translate his 2005 speech. Other Iranian leaders, he adds, have made even more militant comments.
And what of Ahmadinejad himself? He hasn't exactly brought closure to the debate. In a 2006 interview with The Washington Post's Lally Weymouth, he evaded her question about whether he wanted to "wipe Israel off the face of the Earth," in Weymouth's words. "Let the Palestinian people decide their fate in a free and fair referendum, and the result, whatever it is, should be accepted," he told Weymouth. "The people with no roots there are now ruling the land."
More recently, Ahmadinejad has declared that a NATO missile defense system in Turkey "will not stop the fall of the Zionist regime" and that Iran's response to any provocation by the "bankrupt, uncivilized and criminal Zionist regime" would be "crushing and regrettable." Well, at least he said those things according to the Fars News Agency's English translation."

Frankly, it would be easier  if President Ahmadinaejad would repeat his speech in English instead of Iranian interpereters interpreting what he says into English. Just as other Iranians can speak English, I am sure he has the ability to as well.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 07 February 2012 - 09:27 AM.

[aliasghark]

Still waiting for you to back up your claim Christianlady "From what I have heard, Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth. At least, this is what media tells us."  

None of your citations make this argument.

[Christianlady]

aliasghark, on 07 February 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

I wonder why Christianlady thinks ali feels threatened by her, heheh.

Hello Aliasghark,

When engaging in interfaith discussions, simply labeling a person of a different belief a "missionary" or insulting the person is a move that a person who feels threatened makes.  Answering with an educated reply, which includes reasons that refute the other person's points (claims), as well as articles as evidence, is what a person who is not threatened does.

If you wish to see people who are not threatened by a person of another belief's questions and comments, please see Asadullabdallah's post, as well as Propaganda of the Deed, and others who do not merely write one or two sentences attacking me, but rather answer with courtesy and with  valid reasons as to why they do not agree with me.

Peace and God bless you

[aliasghark]

Can it be that your assumption is not true? Maybe ali is not threatened by you? Maybe he feels your narrow-mindedness is a sign of your being a missionary?

[Christianlady]

aliasghark, on 07 February 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

Still waiting for you to back up your claim Christianlady "From what I have heard, Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth. At least, this is what media tells us."  

None of your citations make this argument.

Hello Aliasghark,

There is a logical process called (in English) Inductive reasoning. Below is an explanation of inductive reasoning:
http://dictionary.re...ctive+reasoning

"Inductive  reasoning is a logical process in which a conclusion is proposed that contains more information than the observations or experience on which it is based. Every crow ever seen was black; all crows are black:  The truth of the conclusion is verifiable only in terms of future experience and certainty is attainable only if all possible instances have been examined. In the example, there is no certainty that a white crow will not be found tomorrow, although past experience would make such an occurrence seem unlikely."

Let's use both deductive and inductive reasoning concerning my "claim", shall we? Let's break it up on parts.

"From what I have heard,"

Here, we use deductive reasoning. I have heard this... what have I heard? Let's see...

Quote

Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth.

With the above, we can use  inductive reasoning. First, let's see what the Interpreter first told the English speaking world concerning what the Iranian president said:

"
Imam ghoft een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Qods bayad az safheh-i ruzgar mahv shaved
Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map"

http://www.theatlant...rael-map/43372/

My claim was " From what I have heard, Iran is threatening on wiping Jewish people off the earth. At least, this is what media tells us."
Using inductive reasoning, we can use the reasoning as follows. First of all, who is talking? The Iranian president, who stands for Iran.
Who is the "occupying regime" in Israel? Jewish people (or are they Arab people?
Map = earth

Do you understand this concept?

below is a link of an email that has been circulating for a long time concerning this Iranian Presdient's famous words (translated into English, because most Americans do not know Farsi nor are interested in learning Farsi.)

"Subject: Some of The Differences Between Muslims & Jews
A very revealing set of facts
  
Muslims want to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth -- wow, what a difference that would make........."
http://survivalplus....rd/page0025.htm (Please note, I did not write the above, but yes I have seen it before.)

If you wish to argue that the Iranian interpreter translated incorrectly. Fine. Let's use inductive reasoning to see what Steele thinks the Iranian President meant.

"safheh-i ruzgar: This is where things really get interesting. Ahmadinejad actually misquoted Khomeini, who used the phrase "sahneh-i ruzgar." As the Times noted several years ago, "sahneh" literally means "scene" or "stage" and "ruzgar" means "time," but translators in the 1980s interpreted Khomeini's words as a metaphorical reference to a "map"--an interpretation that stuck when Ahmadinejad substituted "sahneh" for "safheh," or "page." But the Cole-Steele-Norouzi trio recommends the literal translation of "page of time" (MEMRI, for its part, went with "pages of history"). Steele claims that the "page of time" phrase, along with the rest of his translation, suggests that the Iranian president was expressing a desire for an end to Israeli occupation at some point in the future. "He was not threatening an Iranian-initiated war to remove Israeli control over Jerusalem," Steele writes."
http://www.theatlant...rael-map/43372/

So, Steele thinks the interpreters did a bad job in interpreting the Iranian president's words.

In another article, the alternate translation is "This occupation regime over Jerusalem must vanish from the arena of time.”
http://www.washingto...JIKML_blog.html

So, using inductive reason, let's see... occupation regime over Jerusalem are who? Jewish people (not Arabs nor English nor Latinos... Jewish people)

Must vanish... well, we all know people don't disappear for no reason. Something is done to make people disappear, hmm? So, using inductive reasoning, one can logically assume that Iran wants to help the occupation regime over Jerusalem to "vanish", because we all know people don't just disappear. Disappear, by the way, = vanish.

"from the arena of time" Wow that's actually stronger than "off the face of the earth" because vanishing from time means that nobody in the future will remember them, which means erasing them from the history books (though the truth of them existing actually cannot be erased, since God knows everything)

So, one can use inductive reasoning to assume that Iran wants to wipe Jewish people off the face of the earth. Which Jewish people? From the time I have been on this forum and through my question on this thread, I have learned that some Muslims hate "Zionists" or the Israeli "regime" and all other Jewish people are not included in this hatred. Is this correct? So, the ones the Iranian president thinks "must vanish" are the Jewish people who make up the nation of Israel.

Now, if you wish to respond, please kindly read the following article, and instead of insulting it, please kindly use logic and refutations (including articles) to refute it if it is indeed not true. Otherwise, this is the last time I will write to you.

Please check out the link in the following paragraph quoted from the online article: (You can find this article at http://www.washingto...JIKML_blog.html

" But the story doesn’t end there. Karim Sadjadpour, an Iranian specialist at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, notes that Iranian government entities began to erect billboards and signs with the “wipe off” phrase in English. Joshua Teitelbaum of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs compiled an interesting collection of photographs of these banners, such as one on the building that houses reserve military forces of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. “Israel should be wiped out of the face of the world,” the sign reads in English."

Please read Joshua Teitelbaum's article and refute it, without using insults (it does not take intelligence, maturity, or integrity to insult someone or something) in order to refute his points. You may find the link to his article here
http://www.washingto...JIKML_blog.html

If you do not respond to my challenge of refuting Joshua Teitelbaum's article courtesy and with valid refutations, I will no longer write you.

Peace and God bless you

aliasghark, on 07 February 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Can it be that your assumption is not true? Maybe ali is not threatened by you? Maybe he feels your narrow-mindedness is a sign of your being a missionary?

Hello Aliasghark,

Maybe you have never met a missionary? I have. Missionaries say " Would you like to be saved? Do you know where you will go when you die? Pray the sinner's prayer...." These are kinds of things missionaries say.

I am an apologist. An apologist doesn't ask you if you would like to be saved. Why? Because apologists are defending what they believe, not trying to get another person to believe the same. Apologists do not defend what they believe to get people converted, but rather because they enjoy engaging in interfaith discussion. It is remarkably difficult to have an interfaith discussion and defend one's beliefs if everyone believes the same, hmm? Have you ever tried playing chess if both sides were on the same team? Why does that not work? An apologist cannot defend if there is not an opposing side.

As for your accusation of me being "narrowminded", I actually have learned a lot on this forum, whereas many Americans don't feel the desire to learn from Muslims.

Anyways, the next time I write you, it will be to answer your refutation concerning Joshua Teiteibaum's article. I hope you take the challenge. If not, I understand why.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 07 February 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[Christianlady]

Asadullabdallah, on 06 February 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

You must first dis align jews with zionist

Hello Asadullabdallah,

What does your screenname mean please? Just curious

One can categorize Jewish people into 2 groups if you prefer:
1. Jewish people who are Zionists
2. Jewish people who are not Zionists

However, there are Jewish people who are Zionists, as you are aware.

Quote

. Muslims have no problems with jews, and i have jewish friends. I dont treat them bad nor do i disrespect them, i think their actually hilarious.

Cool. I have Jewish friends as well. They are very interesting and highly intelligent. I also have Muslim friends (from India) who are very interesting and highly intelligent. I respect them and I appreciate their friendship.

Quote

But they know the israel line is not to be crossed.

Could you please expound on this? Do your Jewish friends not talk to you about Isreal? What are their beliefs concerning Israel? Do they celebrate Jewish festivals and pray for Israel?

Quote

Israel is a zionist piece of trash that should be wiped off the earth and thats not from ahmedinjad's lips those are from hakim abidAllah's lips.

I hope Aliasghark is reading this. Who is Hakim AbidAllah?

Also, please refrain from insulting anyone or anything while writing with me? You can point out you disagree with someone or something without stooping to the level of insulting. Thanks.

Do you know what Israel means? Do you know who Israel is? Israel is the name God gave to Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham. Moses was a child of Israel (of the tribe of Levi, one of the 12 sons of Israel (Jacob), son of Isaac, son of Abraham.) King David and Jesus are also children of Israel (of the tribe of Judah, one of the 12 sons of Israel (Jacob) son of Isaac, son of Abraham. Because Israel is the name God gave to Jacob, does that not impact you in any way? It does to me. Why? Because God gave this name to the man Jacob, and Jesus, who I love more than anyone, is a descendant of Israel.

Sometimes I wonder if that's why some Muslims are so against Israel. I encourage Muslims to read the Tanakh and learn about the history of Israel: the person, the group of people (descendants of the person), and the nation.

Quote

Israel is terrorist entity using the events of the manys who died during the holocaust,  the jews who died even tho they were the minority killed many people died during those years i.e. wars on the line of russia/europe i believe, anyways they use that event to remove the indeginous people of palestine as if they are native americans and israeli are colonist.

Terrorist is a relative term nowadays. One thing I am curious about please. If you were a refugee from a country where you were being persecuted, would you want to return to the place of your fathers? God led the Israelites (children of Israel - descendants of Jacob) out of Egypt from slavery to the Promised land a long time ago. After Rome destroyed Jerusalemn, Israelis fled to all the earth (including to Iran- Persia. have you ever read Daniel (an Israeli prophet who was taken by the Babylonian king and then served the conquering Persian king?) Israelis also fled to Europe, where sadly they have been persecuted for a long time by ignorant Christians who do not understand Jesus' teachngs as well as haters who think they are superior to all other groups (the Nazis)

Quote

Which is exactly what it is. there are thousands upon thousands jews in Iran who are treated fairly and have say in the government. They get funding for religious centers etc

That is awesome. Do you know how they got there? Do you know why Jewish people moved to Iran in the first place? They didn't always live in Iran. They were refugees when Rome sacked their country, the country of Israel. Iran at that time (Persia) and Rome weren't exacty friends at that time.  One thing I don't understand about the Arabs who lived under the English control of the land of the Promised Land (Palestine) is why they didn't welcome the Jewish refugees, like the Persians who allowed Jewish refugees to move to Iran?

Quote

So to say we hate jews is inaccurate

Is it then accurate to say you hate Jews who are Zionists or who live in Israel, then?

Quote

as christians have killed way more jews than muslims ever have

Serious Christians, Christians who obey Jesus' teachings, do not kill anybody, regardless of belief.  Sadly, many "Christians" do not follow Jesus' teachings.  However, yes it is sadly true that Europeans (who have been by tradition for a long time "Christian") have killed many people, thanks to advanced weaponry and highly aggressive cultures.

Quote

, and jews have killed more muslims.

Technology has its good points (medicine, easier lives, fast transportation,...) and bad points (more destructive ways to kill more people). Do you think if Muslims invented (or copied from other's inventions) more technology, they would kill more Jews then? Is it a competition between the two groups?

Quote

Allah knows best.

It is true that God, the One and Only God, knows best.

Peace and God bless you, and thank you for your interesting reply to my thread.

Edited by Christianlady, 07 February 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[570]

So the racist hardcore muslim Ahmadinejad is going to wipe off all Jewish from the earth?

Can you explain these images?





Oh no! He was doing taqqiya at the time! He failed to detonate his self-suicidal bombs!

Edited by аli, 07 February 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[aliasghark]

The problem with your reasoning Christianlady is that despite all the articles there's no place where any Iranian leader threatened to wipe Jewish people off the earth.

There are two mistakes you make in your argument:
- creating the 'threat' out of thin air
- replacing in your sentence the Israeli regime with 'Jewish people'

There's no such threat that you could show from any Iranian leader (look up the definition of 'threaten'; believing a certain government, such as the apartheid regimes of (former) South Africa and (current) Israel, have to go, does not mean killing the people).

And your leap of faith from the racist Israeli regime to the 'Jewish people' is baseless. Jews do not generally act in racist ways, the Zionist Israelis do.