118 replies to this topic

[Light of Ali]

ImAli, on 21 December 2011 - 12:21 PM, said:

Well I wear a black abaya just about all of the time.....occasionally I wear a long jacket instead (of course both of them with a scarf). Yesterday I went to the doctors office and had on a long jacket below the knees and a black scarf to match with it. There was this woman in there that kept staring at me.....I swear she could have burned me with her eyes, they were so full of hate.....all because of what I was wearing.

Just ignore them sis. Unfortunately many people today are intolerant of other people's beliefs and religious practices. I pity such people.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

Ghamidi argues that verses ^{[Quran 24:30/31]} teach etiquette for male and female interactions, where khumūr is mentioned in reference to the clothing of Arab women in the 7th century, but there is no command to actually wear them in any specific way. Hence he considers head-covering a preferable practice but not a directive of the sharia (law).

A valid point to consider.

[Haydar Husayn]

اهل البيت, on 21 December 2011 - 12:48 PM, said:

Ghamidi argues that verses ^{[Quran 24:30/31]} teach etiquette for male and female interactions, where khumūr is mentioned in reference to the clothing of Arab women in the 7th century, but there is no command to actually wear them in any specific way. Hence he considers head-covering a preferable practice but not a directive of the sharia (law).

A valid point to consider.

No, it is not valid, because we have many ahadith that are very explicit on what to cover.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

Haydar Husayn, on 21 December 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

No, it is not valid, because we have many ahadith that are very explicit on what to cover.

Not clear enough, unfortunately. The validity of that argument and the validity of my rational argument still stands.

[Lanatin]

The guy who made this video is a massive pervert.

[Haydar Husayn]

How clear do you want them to be?

2 – And from Muhammad b. Isma`il from al-Fadl b. Shadhan and from Abu `Ali al-Ash`ari from Muhammad b. `Abd al-Jabbar, all from Safwan b. Yahya from `Abd ar-Rahman b. al-Hajjaj.  He said: I asked Abu Ibrahim عليه السلام about the girl who has not attained (i.e. bulugh), when does it behoove her to cover her head from he who between her and him there is no mahram (i.e. they are not related in such as manner as would make marriage prohibited between them), and when is it obligatory upon her to veil her head for salat?  He said: She does not cover her head until salat becomes haram upon her. (i.e. when she menstruates)

3 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn by his isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr from ar-Rida عليه السلام.  He said: The boy is taken by salat when he is seven years old, and the woman does not cover her hair from him until he hits puberty (or, has a nocturnal emission).

4 - `Abdullah b. Ja`far in Qurb al-Isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr from ar-Rida عليه السلام.  He said: The woman does not cover her head from the boy until the boy becomes baligh.

http://www.tashayyu....ies/chapter-126


1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from a group of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from Jamil from al-Fudayl.  He said:  I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام about the two arms of woman, are they from the adornment that Allah said “And do not reveal their adornment but to their husbands” (24:31)?  He said:  Yes, and what it below the veil (al-khimar) is from the adornment and what is below the two bracelets.

2 – And from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Maruk b. `Ubayd from some of our companions from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said:  I said to him:  What is allowed for the man to see from the woman when he is not mahram?  He said: The face, the two hands, and the two feet.

5 - `Abdullah b. Ja`far in Qurb al-Isnad from Harun b. Muslim from Mas`ada b. Ziyad.  He said: I heard Ja`far asked about what the woman makes apparent from her adornment. He said: The face and the two hands.
http://www.tashayyu....ies/chapter-109

Edited by Haydar Husayn, 21 December 2011 - 04:48 PM.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

Haydar Husayn, on 21 December 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

How clear do you want them to be?

2 – And from Muhammad b. Isma`il from al-Fadl b. Shadhan and from Abu `Ali al-Ash`ari from Muhammad b. `Abd al-Jabbar, all from Safwan b. Yahya from `Abd ar-Rahman b. al-Hajjaj.  He said: I asked Abu Ibrahim عليه السلام about the girl who has not attained (i.e. bulugh), when does it behoove her to cover her head from he who between her and him there is no mahram (i.e. they are not related in such as manner as would make marriage prohibited between them), and when is it obligatory upon her to veil her head for salat?  He said: She does not cover her head until salat becomes haram upon her. (i.e. when she menstruates)

3 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn by his isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr from ar-Rida عليه السلام.  He said: The boy is taken by salat when he is seven years old, and the woman does not cover her hair from him until he hits puberty (or, has a nocturnal emission).

4 - `Abdullah b. Ja`far in Qurb al-Isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr from ar-Rida عليه السلام.  He said: The woman does not cover her head from the boy until the boy becomes baligh.

http://www.tashayyu....ies/chapter-126


1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from a group of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from Jamil from al-Fudayl.  He said:  I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام about the two arms of woman, are they from the adornment that Allah said “And do not reveal their adornment but to their husbands” (24:31)?  He said:  Yes, and what it below the veil (al-khimar) is from the adornment and what is below the two bracelets.

2 – And from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Maruk b. `Ubayd from some of our companions from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said:  I said to him:  What is allowed for the man to see from the woman when he is not mahram?  He said: The face, the two hands, and the two feet.

5 - `Abdullah b. Ja`far in Qurb al-Isnad from Harun b. Muslim from Mas`ada b. Ziyad.  He said: I heard Ja`far asked about what the woman makes apparent from her adornment. He said: The face and the two hands.
http://www.tashayyu....ies/chapter-109

Seriously? The same website you substantiated the 'secret muta affair' nonsense with? You expect me to believe in the veracity of all these narrations?

Give me an authentic narration where one of the Imams explicitly state "It Is obligatory on all women to cover their heads at the age of puberty" or something along those lines. Problem is, I've never come across such a narrative and I doubt its existence.

[baradar_jackson]

Awaiting_for_the12th, on 21 December 2011 - 03:45 AM, said:

i think you are arguing just for the heck of it right now but anyways here is my post again:
"that argument makes no sense. By that logic a small sin is better then bigger sin.
Any hijab (which these sisters are takiing is haram as it doesnt qualify as proper hiijab) better then no hijab (also haram)"  
Both are haram: no hijab and the hijab these sisters are taking. We cannot just say oh at least the girls have something on their head so its fine. Thats still not proper, but somehow you brought in bikinis??

It's a perfectly valid point that I brought up.

I never made any pronouncements about the acceptability or unacceptability of the hijabs pictured, and I think others who commented are only making the very obvious point: their hijab is better than no hijab.

Modest dressing is not a pass/fail deal. There is a scale at work. Yes, even for dress that does not meet shar'i requirements, there is a scale. All cultures have some concept of hijab; some concept of decency. And we can look at them and compare them to our own beliefs. In Eastern Europe and Russia, it was until very recently, expected of women to cover their hair. Even today, the most religious Orthodox Christian women, cover their hair! Now this is not a shar'i hijab: maybe they have the hair in the front of their head showing, or maybe -- because they have no concept of mahram and non-mahram -- they do not cover their heads inside their home, even when non-relatives visit.

Or take for example the traditional Korean woman's dress: the hanbok. It's a very long, loose fitting dress, and is worn with a head cover. But, for example, the head covering doesn't cover the neck or ears.

So... seeing these types of dress, are we going to sit and lie to ourselves saying that because these do not meet shar'i requirements, that they are no different than the typical immodest clothing we see commonly worn in Western Europe and the United States?

If you think that, then you're an idiot.

[realizm]

اهل البيت, on 19 December 2011 - 01:32 PM, said:

I find this video to be insulting. You don't judge someone based on how well they wear the hijab, that shouldn't even be a criteria of judgement for anyone. The hijab or lack of it does not, in any way, prove someone is a muslim or prove a womans level of chastity and modesty. This video is just blind bigotry, really.

"fake muslim girls"  @ the beginning

[Ace Abbas]

0:40 wait, can a Muslim tame dogs?
1:04 lol that's Lady Gaga!
3:25 that Mother Mary right?

Edited by Ace Abbas, 21 December 2011 - 07:17 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

اهل البيت, on 21 December 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

Seriously? The same website you substantiated the 'secret muta affair' nonsense with? You expect me to believe in the veracity of all these narrations?

Give me an authentic narration where one of the Imams explicitly state "It Is obligatory on all women to cover their heads at the age of puberty" or something along those lines. Problem is, I've never come across such a narrative and I doubt its existence.

Are you kidding me? Ok, tell you what, PM Nader Zaveri, and he will give you all the authentic ahadith you want on hijab, insha'Allah. There is no doubt whatsoever on this issue among either Shias or Sunnis.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

Haydar Husayn, on 21 December 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

Are you kidding me? Ok, tell you what, PM Nader Zaveri, and he will give you all the authentic ahadith you want on hijab, insha'Allah. There is no doubt whatsoever on this issue among either Shias or Sunnis.

Ah, the self-made e-scholar will convince me with some 'authentic' narrations. The same one who proved that the mother of the 12th Imam was black, when this isn't actually true. The same one who gave an authentic stamp to a narration that says we cannot kiss the hand of anyone except for a Prophet or an Imam, not even our mother. He promotes out of context narrations. But, thank you, I will PM Nader Zaveri anyway and tell you how it goes.

[Haydar Husayn]

اهل البيت, on 21 December 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

Ah, the self-made e-scholar will convince me with some 'authentic' narrations. The same one who proved that the mother of the 12th Imam was black, when this isn't actually true. The same one who gave an authentic stamp to a narration that says we cannot kiss the hand of anyone except for a Prophet or an Imam, not even our mother. He promotes out of context narrations. But, thank you, I will PM Nader Zaveri anyway and tell you how it goes.

So you don't trust major Shia books such as Wasa'il ash-Shi`a, you don't trust the current maraja, who are all unanimous on hijab (even the liberal ones), you don't trust Nader Zaveri, who will give you the gradings of Shia rijal experts, not his own, and you don't trust the consensus of the past 1400 years among all Shias and Sunnis. What kind of proof do you want exactly?

And by the way, what makes you think the mother of Imam Mahdi wasn't black? Did some speaker on TV tell you she was a Roman princess?

[Replicant]

It's quite pathetic (and sad) to see some people trying to argue that hijab is not wajib and dressing modestly according to society is the way it should be done.
An Atheist argues such things, not a Muslim who is supposed to believe that God tells us what is moral, and in this case, what is modest.

[LostMuslim]

Sallam Alykum,

Well it seems like this is what hijab has become nowadays, especially in the western countries. I don't even remember the last time I've seen a young sister who wears everything to complete modesty. It seems like there is always at least some makeup on, some tight clothing, or something that attracts attention like a very sparkly hijab lol. Maybe this is a glimpse of what future Islam has for us? Muslims who take religion less serious as previous generations have.  

But one problem I do have with that video is it puts in public these girl's. It's one thing to say that a girl dressed inappropriately, but to put it on video for millions to see is wrong in itself. You could have easily blurred out the faces at least.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

Quote from a friend:

In the West, to claim that the purpose of wearing hijaab is out of supposed modesty is more of a mute allegation than it is true, as sad as that sounds. I find it very condescending when I overhear a Muslim woman explaining her attire to a non-Muslim, and immediately after hearing her first reasoning-- which is the over-redundant and bland response of "modesty", I literally cringe.

Modesty is what you make of yourself, through your quality in character, where the spotlight is motioned upon one's mannerisms. To wear PROPER hijaab is just the icing on your divinely, delectable being-- it is not your essence! I think many women that do wear hijaab, myself included, forget that the hijaab puts color to our faith and that it should not be a complete representation of one's individuality.

Edited by Çåá ÇáÈíÊ, 23 December 2011 - 08:15 AM.

[Replicant]

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ, on 21 December 2011 - 04:29 PM, said:

Not clear enough, unfortunately. The validity of that argument and the validity of my rational argument still stands.

lol...you sound like a Sunni who says "The Prophet wasn't clear what he meant by 'mawla' at Ghadeer".

Edited by Replicant, 23 December 2011 - 08:20 AM.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

Replicant, on 23 December 2011 - 08:20 AM, said:

lol...you sound like a Sunni who says "The Prophet wasn't clear what he meant by 'mawla' at Ghadeer".

It's not the same. The command of the Holy Prophet (sawa) to make Imam Ali (a) his vicegerent and successor was very direct and obvious.

What I'm trying convey is: "whoever i am a Mawla of, then Ali is his Mawla."

Can you find any narration that is as direct as this in regards to the headscarf?

[Haydar Husayn]

اهل البيت, on 23 December 2011 - 10:02 AM, said:

Can you find any narration that is as direct as this in regards to the headscarf?

You have already been given them.

[Replicant]

اهل البيت, on 23 December 2011 - 10:02 AM, said:

It's not the same. The command of the Holy Prophet (sawa) to make Imam Ali (a) his vicegerent and successor was very direct and obvious.

What I'm trying convey is: "whoever i am a Mawla of, then Ali is his Mawla."

Can you find any narration that is as direct as this in regards to the headscarf?

I did not mean it literally. I meant your attitude is the same - it's just baseless excuses and an attempt to over-complicate a simple thing.

[ElderWand]

Saintly_Jinn23, on 19 December 2011 - 07:04 PM, said:

I don't even see what issue is with some of these girls' dress. It's not like they're dressed immodestly at all, at least not to my eyes. Some of these girls where I live might actually be seen as "repressed"  and mocked by the other girls as dressing too modestly and being too prudish. Just goes to show how different people's views on "modesty" and "hijab" can be.

And what's with the picture of the Virgin Mary   as though she is dressed immodestly? How insulting. This is a wahabi made video if I've ever seen one.

its clearly not a wahabi video if the pictures of "the real Muslims" include women wearing hijabs saying "ya Zainab" and "ya Hussain" ...?

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

EndlessEndeavor, on 23 December 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

Wow, it appears some of the females on this board have resided to taking their own personal whims and ideas to purport their misguided views on Hijab. They even reject very clear ahadeeth and a common consensus amongst all scholars just because it does not suit their ideology or lifestyle.

Hijab is how Islam explicitly stated it to be, not how you wish it to be!

What clear narration? There are no clear-cut narrations. There's no speech by an Imam of AhlulBayt speaking about the importance of wearing the headscarf or why the headscarf is worn, let alone even saying anything explicit that all women should 'cover their hair'.

[Replicant]

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ, on 24 December 2011 - 08:26 PM, said:

What clear narration? There are no clear-cut narrations. There's no speech by an Imam of AhlulBayt speaking about the importance of wearing the headscarf or why the headscarf is worn, let alone even saying anything explicit that all women should 'cover their hair'.

They are clear. You just blur them yourself because it doesn't agree with your theory.
Find one modern scholar who says it is not wajib, that might make your argument stronger.

Edited by Replicant, 24 December 2011 - 08:36 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

اهل البيت, on 24 December 2011 - 08:26 PM, said:

What clear narration? There are no clear-cut narrations. There's no speech by an Imam of AhlulBayt speaking about the importance of wearing the headscarf or why the headscarf is worn, let alone even saying anything explicit that all women should 'cover their hair'.

Why do you continue to ignore the ahadith I posted? You can't just dismiss them for no reason.