28 replies to this topic

[Dar'ul_Islam]

4 - علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن إبراهيم بن عمر اليماني، عن أبان بن أبي عياش، عن سليم بن قيس، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن عمر بن اذينة، وعلي بن محمد، عن أحمد بن هلال، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن عمر بن اذينة، عن [أبان] بن أبي عياش، عن سليم بن قيس قال: سمعت عبدالله بن جعفر الطيار يقول: كنا عند معاوية، أنا والحسن والحسين وعبدالله بن عباس وعمر بن ام سلمة واسامة بن زيد، فجرى بيني وبين معاوية كلام فقلت لمعاوية: سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يقول: أنا أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم، ثم أخي علي بن أبي طالب أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم، فإذا استشهد علي فالحسن بن علي أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم ثم ابني الحسين من بعده أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم، فإذا استشهد فابنه علي بن الحسين أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم وستدركه يا علي(1)، ثم ابنه محمد بن علي أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم وستدركه يا حسين، ثم تكمله اثني عشر إماما تسعة من ولد الحسين، قال عبدالله بن جعفر: واستشهدت الحسن والحسين وعبدالله بن عباس وعمر بن ام سلمة واسامة بن زيد، فشهدوا لي عند معاوية، قال سليم: وقد سمعت ذلك من سلمان وأبي ذر والمقداد وذكروا أنهم سمعوا ذلك من رسول الله صلى عليه وآله.

Ali b. Ibrahim from hisf ather from Hammad b. Isa from Ibrahim b. Umar al-Yamani from Aban b. Abi Ayyash from Sulaym b. Qays

AND

Muhammad b. Yayha from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Abi Umayr from Umar b. Uthayna [from Aban b. Abi Ayyashi from Sulaym b. Qays]

AND

Ali b. Muhammad from Ahmad b. Hilal from Ibn Abi Umayr from Umar b. Uthayna from Aban b. Abi Ayyash from Sulaym b. Qays - he said: I heard Abdullah b. Jafar al-Tayyar saying: We were with Mu`awiya - me, al-Hasan, al-Husayn, and Abdullah b. Abbas and Umar b. Um Salmah, and Usama b. Zaydi - so words were exchanged between me and Mua`wiya then I said to Mu`awiya: I heard the Messenger of God [sawa] saying: I have more authority over the believers than they have over themselves. Then my brother Ali b. Abi Talib has more authoirity over the believers than they have over themselves and when Ali will be martyred then al-Hasan b. Ali shall have more right over the believers than they have over themselves then my son al-Husayn from after him will have more authority over the believers than they have over themselves. Then when he is martyred his son Ali b. al-Husayn will have more authority over the believers than they have over themselves - and you will see it, O Ali! Then his son Muhammad b. Ali  shall have more right over the believers than they have over themselves and you will see him O Husayn! Then he said to him [regarding] 12 Imams, nine from the loins of al-Husayn. Abdullah b. Jafar said: I bore witness and al-Hasan, al-Husayn, Abdullah b Abbas, Umar b. Umm Salmah and Usama b. Zaydi then testified to it in the presence of Mu`awiya. Sulaym said: I heard that from Salman, Abi Tharr, and Miqdad. They mentioned that they heard that from the Messenger of God [sawa].

So obviously people are going to object to this hadith because it's from Kitab Sulaym b. Qays narrated by Aban b. Abi Ayyash quoted by al-Kulyani in al-Kafi. And they'll say he's weak and if they care about Ibn G they'll say he fabricated it, blah blah. My question here is we have a definitely Saheeh chain going back to Aban b. Abi Ayyash (chain #2 above) who are the most esteemed and reliable narrators of the Taa'ifa. So the only person you can point to and call it fabricated it is Aban b. Abi Ayyash. But how did he fabricate it so correctly, especially that early and everything...?

في أمان الله
الله أعلم

[skamran110]

The Quran is the criterion for testifying the hadith. This hadith is verified by the Quran that mentions the                    
12 leaders by Allah in the nation of Muhammad saww. The following link mentions the evidence from quran:


http://www.shiachat....e-prophet-saww/

Edited by skamran110, Yesterday, 12:41 PM.

[Cake]

Dar, on 21 May 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

Ali b. Muhammad from Ahmad b. Hilal from Ibn Abi Umayr from Umar b. Uthayna from Aban b. Abi Ayyash from Sulaym b. Qays - he said: I heard Abdullah b. Jafar al-Tayyar saying: We were with Mu`awiya - me, al-Hasan, al-Husayn, and Abdullah b. Abbas and Umar b. Um Salmah, and Usama b. Zaydi - so words were exchanged between me and Mua`wiya then I said to Mu`awiya: I heard the Messenger of God [sawa] saying: I have more authority over the believers than they have over themselves. Then my brother Ali b. Abi Talib has more authoirity over the believers than they have over themselves and when Ali will be martyred then al-Hasan b. Ali shall have more right over the believers than they have over themselves then my son al-Husayn from after him will have more authority over the believers than they have over themselves. Then when he is martyred his son Ali b. al-Husayn will have more authority over the believers than they have over themselves - and you will see it, O Ali! Then his son Muhammad b. Ali  shall have more right over the believers than they have over themselves and you will see him O Husayn! Then he said to him [regarding] 12 Imams, nine from the loins of al-Husayn. Abdullah b. Jafar said: I bore witness and al-Hasan, al-Husayn, Abdullah b Abbas, Umar b. Umm Salmah and Usama b. Zaydi then testified to it in the presence of Mu`awiya. Sulaym said: I heard that from Salman, Abi Tharr, and Miqdad. They mentioned that they heard that from the Messenger of God [sawa].

So obviously people are going to object to this hadith because it's from Kitab Sulaym b. Qays narrated by Aban b. Abi Ayyash quoted by al-Kulyani in al-Kafi. And they'll say he's weak and if they care about Ibn G they'll say he fabricated it, blah blah. My question here is we have a definitely Saheeh chain going back to Aban b. Abi Ayyash (chain #2 above) who are the most esteemed and reliable narrators of the Taa'ifa. So the only person you can point to and call it fabricated it is Aban b. Abi Ayyash. But how did he fabricate it so correctly, especially that early and everything...?

...The only thing he says is that the succession is Ali - Hasan - Hussain - Ali - Muhammad (peace be upon them). So there is nothing special there when we remember that Aban reached al-Baqir's [a] time. Funny how he doesn't quote any Imams' names after al-Baqir [a]...

And I don't think Nader needs to explain as the man, Amr bin Khalid, was called a liar and fabricator of hadiths. Rather, I think you need to explain what you find problematic with Nader's words.

Edited by Cake, Today, 07:49 AM.

[skamran110]

This is haidth from Ayon Akhbar Reza, Sheikh Saduq, Vol 1.


   [58]

27-   حدثنا محمد بن إبراهيم بن إسحاقالطالقاني قال حدثنا محمد بن همام قال حدثنا أحمد بن بندار قال حدثنا أحمد بن هلالعن محمد بن أبي عمير عن المفضل بن عمر عن الصادق جعفر بن محمد عن أبيه عن آبائه عنأمير المؤمنين ( ع ) قال قال رسول الله ( ص ) لما أسري بي إلى السماء أوحى إلي ربي جلجلاله فقال يا محمد إني اطلعت إلى الأرض اطلاعا فاخترتك منها فجعلتك نبيا و شققتلك من اسمي اسما فأنا المحمود و أنت محمد ثم اطلعت الثانية فاخترت منها عليا وجعلته وصيك و خليفتك و زوج ابنتك و أبا ذريتك و شققت له اسما من أسمائي فأنا لعليالأعلى و هو علي و جعلت فاطمة و الحسن و الحسين من نوركما ثم عرضت ولايتهم علىالملائكة فمن قبلها كان عندي من المقربين يا محمد لو أن عبدا عبدني حتى ينقطع ويصير كالشن البالي ثم أتاني جاحدا لولايتهم ما أسكنته جنتي و لا أظللته تحت عرشييا محمد أ تحب أن تراهم قلت نعم يا ربي فقال عز و جل ارفع رأسك فرفعت رأسي فإذاأنا بأنوار علي و فاطمة و الحسن و الحسين و علي بن الحسين و محمد بن علي و جعفر بنمحمد و موسى بن جعفر و علي بن موسى و محمد بن علي و علي بن محمد و الحسن بن علي والحجة بن الحسن القائم في وسطهم كأنه كوكب دري قلت يا رب من هؤلاء قال هؤلاءالأئمة و هذا القائم الذي يحل حلالي و يحرم حرامي و به أنتقم من أعدائي و هو راحةلأوليائي و هو الذي يشفي قلوب شيعتك من الظالمين و الجاحدين و الكافرين فيخرجاللات و العزى طريين فيحرقهما فلفتنة الناس بهما يومئذ أشد من فتنة العجل و السامري .


Although it is in Arabic but it mentions the names of 12 Imams

Edited by skamran110, 44 minutes ago.