24 replies to this topic

[Aryan Warrior]

So I want to do Mutah with a woman but I have been quite afraid to cause of "provisions"

In regular permanent marriage I know the provisions such as giving your wife you home, food and other stuff are required but is that still the case with Mutah?

Considering this girl will be living with her parents and so will I considering we can't afford nor do we feel that we are ready to move out and live with each other, but really want to enter a mutah.

I would assume that I don't have to provide her a place to live or anything such as food considering she is already under her parents financial care, but still unsure if that would make a case for it.

So is this okay with Mutah? is this even okay with permanent marriage? and can I get some evidence with it too?

Thanks

[La fata illa Ali]

According to Syed Sistani:

http://www.sistani.o...&id=48&pid=2350

Subsistence: The action or fact of maintaining or supporting oneself at a minimum level.

2433. A woman with whom temporary marriage (mutah) is contracted, is not entitled to subsistence even if she becomes pregnant.




As for Permanent Marriage: http://www.sistani.o...&id=48&pid=2349


2421. For a woman with whom permanent marriage is contracted, it is haraam to go out of the house without the permission of her husband, though her leaving may not violate the rights of the husband. Also she should submit herself to his sexual desires, and should not prevent him from having sexual intercourse with her, without justifiable excuse.
And as long as she does not fail in her duties, it is obligatory on the husband to provide for her food, clothes and housing. And if he does not provide the same, regardless of whether he is able to provide them or not, he remains indebted to the wife.


2422. If the wife does not fulfil her matrimonial duties towards her husband, she will not be entitled for the food, clothes or housing, even if she continues to live with him. But if she refuses to obey occasionally, the common verdict is that even then she cannot claim any entitlement from her husband. But this verdict is a matter of Ishkal. In any case, there is no doubt that she does not forfeit her Mahr.





Good Luck

Edited by As7aabul Yameen, 26 October 2011 - 02:06 PM.

[Aryan Warrior]

As7aabul Yameen, on 26 October 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

According to Syed Sistani:

http://www.sistani.o...&id=48&pid=2350

Subsistence: The action or fact of maintaining or supporting oneself at a minimum level.

2433. A woman with whom temporary marriage (mutah) is contracted, is not entitled to subsistence even if she becomes pregnant.




As for Permanent Marriage: http://www.sistani.o...&id=48&pid=2349


2421. For a woman with whom permanent marriage is contracted, it is haraam to go out of the house without the permission of her husband, though her leaving may not violate the rights of the husband. Also she should submit herself to his sexual desires, and should not prevent him from having sexual intercourse with her, without justifiable excuse.
And as long as she does not fail in her duties, it is obligatory on the husband to provide for her food, clothes and housing. And if he does not provide the same, regardless of whether he is able to provide them or not, he remains indebted to the wife.


2422. If the wife does not fulfil her matrimonial duties towards her husband, she will not be entitled for the food, clothes or housing, even if she continues to live with him. But if she refuses to obey occasionally, the common verdict is that even then she cannot claim any entitlement from her husband. But this verdict is a matter of Ishkal. In any case, there is no doubt that she does not forfeit her Mahr.





Good Luck

Sounds good, but can I also get some Quranic verses and hadith and history to backup the Mutah one where provisions aren't needed?

As well if one doesn't pay the provisions or give property to their permanent wife, does it void the marriage? and if they agree upon the man not requiring the woman to give her a house or pay her because she might want to simply live with her family who would finance her, would that work?

[ImAli]

Don't you need her fathers permission if she is living off of her parents?

[Aryan Warrior]

ImAli, on 26 October 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Don't you need her fathers permission if she is living off of her parents?

Yes, but that's not what i'm asking and rather it is if she living with her parents covers provision as is (assuming her father already gave permission)

[ImAli]

Aryan Warrior, on 26 October 2011 - 02:52 PM, said:

Yes, but that's not what i'm asking and rather it is if she living with her parents covers provision as is (assuming her father already gave permission)

It has always been my understanding that you enter into mutah with an agreed mahr (dowry) for a set amount of time and that is it. For example, you give her some gold earrings that cost you $200.....it has to be agreed upon that the dowry is a pair of gold earrings worth $200 and the marriage will last for 1 day, 1 month, 3 months or whatever amount of time you both agree on. Anyway, I could be wrong, I am just repeating what I was told.

Edited by ImAli, 26 October 2011 - 02:57 PM.

[Aryan Warrior]

ImAli, on 26 October 2011 - 02:56 PM, said:

It has always been my understanding that you enter into mutah with an agreed mahr (dowry) for a set amount of time and that is it. For example, you give her some gold earrings that cost you $200.....it has to be agreed upon that the dowry is a pair of gold earrings worth $200 and the marriage will last for 1 day, 1 month, 3 months or whatever amount of time you both agree on. Anyway, I could be wrong, I am just repeating what I was told.

$200!? O_o I never heard of a specified amount and even so i'd feel that the girl would not want to accept such a high end gift cause she'd feel guilty, though I hear that in the Quran it says that they can give it back if they wish. Though I understand why a price like that is good cause it would prevent abuse of the system.

Anyways, anything else you think you can answer of my questions like some verses, hadiths and history on why provisions aren't needed for this unlike permanent marriage?

[ImAli]

Aryan Warrior, on 26 October 2011 - 03:28 PM, said:

$200!? O_o I never heard of a specified amount and even so i'd feel that the girl would not want to accept such a high end gift cause she'd feel guilty, though I hear that in the Quran it says that they can give it back if they wish. Though I understand why a price like that is good cause it would prevent abuse of the system.

Anyways, anything else you think you can answer of my questions like some verses, hadiths and history on why provisions aren't needed for this unlike permanent marriage?

Yeah....she can give the dowry back I believe. You could also do a symbolic dowry like a rose worth $5 (just an example). As for the hadiths, I don't really keep up with hadiths on mutah or any of that....but I am sure someone will pop in soon and be able to help you out. All I know is other than the agreed upon dowry you aren't responsible for her.

[La fata illa Ali]

Aryan Warrior, on 26 October 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

Sounds good, but can I also get some Quranic verses and hadith and history to backup the Mutah one where provisions aren't needed?

As well if one doesn't pay the provisions or give property to their permanent wife, does it void the marriage? and if they agree upon the man not requiring the woman to give her a house or pay her because she might want to simply live with her family who would finance her, would that work?

What are u akhbari or something.

What I gave u is gold! GOLD!


haha jokes, nah man i think ur over thinking this, anyways good luck finding what u want from original sources. And please post it if u do find it.

[ImAli]

watch this and forward to 3:09 on the timer


Anyway I don't speak farsi so I don't know if the translation is accurate or not.....but I find it strange they are talking about alimony and not mahr. Maybe a farsi speaker will come in here and clear this up. Just notice how they had to name a price for the alimony (possibly dowry) even though it is a flower. When I married it was permanent, I got gold, but the gold was for a certain amount of money, the sheikh even explained to me that whatever I accept has to have a set price. Since nikah and mutah are both marriage I imagine the dowry has to be a set price even if it is an object.

Edited by ImAli, 26 October 2011 - 03:49 PM.

[Lanatin]

AIDS in Iran...nice find ImAli

[ImAli]

La, on 26 October 2011 - 03:56 PM, said:

AIDS in Iran...nice find ImAli

I had to add a touch of spice to this thread LOL.

[Aryan Warrior]

As7aabul Yameen, on 26 October 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

What are u akhbari or something.

What I gave u is gold! GOLD!


haha jokes, nah man i think ur over thinking this, anyways good luck finding what u want from original sources. And please post it if u do find it.

LOL but yeah I have been trying to find somethings that reason as to why it isn't needed for temporary marriage but needed for permanent.

I have a theory that it is nothing but a given. Considering the fact that there were three types of marriages proposed in the Quran:
-Permanent Marriage
-Your right hand possession
-Temporary Marriage (or straight up labeled as Mutah in the Quran)

Considering people already knew what each of these were at the time, it was like saying water is to drink or murder being your killing someone else as it was practiced even before Muhammad spread his message. As well one obviously won't be giving those same provisions one gives for permanent marriage to your right hand possession when you marry them so therefore provisions are clearly not needed for anything but permanent.

So can anyone tell me if i'm ballpark with that theory? And i'd still love to see some evidence to further prove why provisions aren't needed.

As well does not giving provisions and a place to your wife in permanent marriage void the contract automatically?

ImAli, on 26 October 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

watch this and forward to 3:09 on the timer


Anyway I don't speak farsi so I don't know if the translation is accurate or not.....but I find it strange they are talking about alimony and not mahr. Maybe a farsi speaker will come in here and clear this up. Just notice how they had to name a price for the alimony (possibly dowry) even though it is a flower. When I married it was permanent, I got gold, but the gold was for a certain amount of money, the sheikh even explained to me that whatever I accept has to have a set price. Since nikah and mutah are both marriage I imagine the dowry has to be a set price even if it is an object.

Ooh nice video there and wow Mutah is quite interesting in Iran. I guess they want it on pen so when stopped about who you are with you can show your Mutah papers. I speak Farsi, but couldn't turn on my speakers at the moment to listen, though I doubt its any different from those translations.

Edited by Aryan Warrior, 27 October 2011 - 12:36 PM.

[Aryan Warrior]

anymore opinions?

[macisaac]

[ 26577 ] 1 ـ محمد بن الحسن بإسناده عن محمد بن أحمد بن يحيى ، عن محمد بن الحسين عن موسى بن سعدان ، عن عبدالله بن القاسم ، عن هشام بن سالم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) ـ في حديث في المتعة ـ قال : ولا نفقة ولا عدة عليك .

1 – Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ahmad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from Musa b. Sa`dan from `Abdullah b. al-Qasim from Hisham b. Salim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام in a hadith regarding mut`a.  He said: And (there is) no maintenance and no `idda upon you.

http://www.tashayyu....muta/chapter-45

[Lanatin]

no idda? wtf?

[Haydar Husayn]

No iddah for the man.

[Lanatin]

oh right...my bad  :/

[alimohamad40]

salaam

Aryan Warrior, on 27 October 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:

As well does not giving provisions and a place to your wife in permanent marriage void the contract automatically?

it does not void the contract automatically but the man is regarded Nashiz  which means the wife can raise the issue to the hakim, the Hakim orders the man to either pay or divorce ( if the wife wants that)
the divorce then is regarded non revocable (baen)

[Aryan Warrior]

alimohamad40, on 28 November 2011 - 11:08 PM, said:

salaam


it does not void the contract automatically but the man is regarded Nashiz  which means the wife can raise the issue to the hakim, the Hakim orders the man to either pay or divorce ( if the wife wants that)
the divorce then is regarded non revocable (baen)

but what if the woman is fine with it. What i'm getting at is that what if say the man and woman want to make it permanent but live separately with their parents without needing to provide provisions until they eventually move in with each other? basically like Mutah but without an end date.

[ImAli]

Aryan Warrior, on 06 December 2011 - 12:46 AM, said:

but what if the woman is fine with it. What i'm getting at is that what if say the man and woman want to make it permanent but live separately with their parents without needing to provide provisions until they eventually move in with each other? basically like Mutah but without an end date.

You mean like nikah? But the man or the man and the wife are saving to set their home up as soon as possible? Maybe you could do mutah for a while....and keep renewing, then when you have enough money you can go for the permanent thing.

Edited by ImAli, 06 December 2011 - 11:08 AM.

[Aryan Warrior]

ImAli, on 06 December 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

You mean like nikah? But the man or the man and the wife are saving to set their home up as soon as possible? Maybe you could do mutah for a while....and keep renewing, then when you have enough money you can go for the permanent thing.

Oh that's not what i'm actually planning rather what i'm more getting at with asking such a question is why provisions aren't needed for mutah. Sure we got hadith that says it isn't needed for mutah, but I always feel more relaxed if I can get something more Quran related. Thus why I wanna know if permenant doesn't require provisions and both sides decide to give it up  which would then make me understand why it is then allowed for Mutah as well.

[ImAli]

Aryan Warrior, on 06 December 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

Oh that's not what i'm actually planning rather what i'm more getting at with asking such a question is why provisions aren't needed for mutah. Sure we got hadith that says it isn't needed for mutah, but I always feel more relaxed if I can get something more Quran related. Thus why I wanna know if permenant doesn't require provisions and both sides decide to give it up  which would then make me understand why it is then allowed for Mutah as well.

You should probably go talk to the sheikh to find a solution to what you are looking for. I don't see why two people can't agree on something and make a contract....but you never know, so just go talk to someone who deals with this sort of thing every day.

[Aryan Warrior]

ImAli, on 06 December 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:

You should probably go talk to the sheikh to find a solution to what you are looking for. I don't see why two people can't agree on something and make a contract....but you never know, so just go talk to someone who deals with this sort of thing every day.

That is what I was thinking and kept thinking of the example of Muhammad's first wife who already had a home and money thus the rules of provision changed there and i'm pretty stayed like that too even after they accepted Islam.

I guess i'll ask but I have been looking at verse 4:24 and noticed something that might support the no provision rule:

"And all married women except those whom your right hands possess; (this is) Allah's ordinance to you; and lawful for you is (all) besides that - that you seek (them) by means of your wealth taking (them) with chastity, not committing fornication. Then as such of them with whom you have mut'ah, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise." 4:24

I've seen some try to call as just stating that you can renew the mutah, but I was thinking that maybe it meant mutually agreeing to anything including no provisions or rather there are no rules here and you guys can make your rules right there, thus if you want some provision there or not you can mutually agree on it.

What do you think?

Edited by Aryan Warrior, 06 December 2011 - 02:04 PM.

[ImAli]

Seems you can agree on anything, just check with someone who deals with marriage every day to be sure.