15 replies to this topic

[WhiteSkies]

Salaam,

I was aware of the situation happening with Lake Orumieh (Azerbaijan, Iran) but I'm interested in the views of others SC, hence why I'm posting this topic . The below article was written on 5th September 2011 (more than a month ago) but I tried the search tool and nothing came up and tbh I can't remember this topic being discussed... In any case if it has already been discussed please provide me with the link and go ahead and delete this post!

http://www.guardian....orumieh-shrinks


The fate of a shrinking salt lake is the last thing you would expect football fans to chant about – but Iranians are doing all they can to stop a looming ecological disaster.
Lake Orumieh in north-west Iran, one of the world's largest salt lakes and a Unesco biosphere reserve, is disappearing due to drought and government mismanagement, and has become a major cause of concern for environmental activists and ordinary people in the Islamic republic.
Thousands of Iranians from Tabriz and Orumieh, two cities in Iran's Azerbaijan region, have come out on streets over the past few weeks in protest at the government's failure to protect the lake, which has already lost half of its surface in recent years. Lake Orumieh is situated at the heart of the region, home to the country's Azeri ethnic minority, whose activists claim they have been marginalised in recent years.
On Saturday security forces on motorcycles in Tabriz and Orumieh clashed with thousands of protesters who gathered in scattered groups raising alarms over the lake's disappearance. Experts have said the salt lake, crucial to agriculture and tourism, could dry out completely in the next few years.
Amateur videos posted on YouTube and social networking websites, believed to have been taken from Saturday's events, show riot police attacking what appears to be a peaceful protest. Opposition websites said riot forces wielded batons and used teargas and plastic bullets to disperse protesters who were chanting "Lake Orumieh is thirsty". Scores of protesters, including several environmental activists, have been arrested. The committee of human rights reporters in Iran reported on Monday that Farank Farid, a prominent women's rights activist, was among the protesters currently held in custody.
A website affiliated to South Azerbaijan's student movement claimed that protesters were injured in clashes with security forces. The association for defence of Azerbaijani political prisoners in Iran reported that eyewitnesses said at least one person was killed.
"According to the eyewitnesses, a protester was killed by the Iranian riot police in Tarbiat Street of the city of Tabriz. The body was immediately removed by the security forces," ADAPP said. The association reported protesters were chanting "Lake Orumieh is dying! Iran is issuing its execution", "Long live Azerbaijan".
Protesters blame the gradual drying of the salt lake on the government and its policies of damming rivers, but officials say drought and global warming has caused the disaster.
Some 36 dams have been built on rivers on the way to Lake Orumieh. Etemaad, a reformist newspaper, reported that the water level in Lake Orumieh falls by 3mm every day.
Experts say the government has refused to acknowledge the severity of the problem, which could have catastrophic environmental consequences. Fields of vine, almond and garlic in the region are dependant on Lake Orumieh. Experts say the intensity of the wind in the region would mean any salt left behind as the lake dries would destroy flora and fauna in the surrounding area, and also be harmful to humans.
Unable to stage street protests freely, Iranians have exploited every opportunity to voice alarm over the lake's fate. Football fans have chanted slogans in relation to the salt lake in stadiums since April. Activists are planning to stage another protest on Friday during a football match in Tehran's Azadi stadium, which holds up to 100,000 people.
Recent unrest in the Azarbaijan region saw familiar scenes to those witnessed in the aftermath of Iran's post-election protest in 2009.
Some analysts have seen these protests as being inspired by, and a continuation of, the unrest in 2009 and have even linked them to the uprisings in the Arab world. But there is little evidence to suggest recent events are connected to anti-regime movements.
Saturday's protests came after the Iranian parliament refused to fast-track a bid, proposed by local MPs, to feed the lake with water from a nearby river. Iran's semi-official Fars news agency published a letter, signed by 22 MPs, urging parliament to act on the issue. Speaking to Khabaronline, a news website, Javad Jahangirzadeh, an MP for the city of Orumieh, said: "In my view, the issue [of Lake Orumieh] should not be seen as a security issue and it should not be politicised. It is a social and environmental issue which we can rescue and it can be solved by the human."
He added: "Out of 100 people who come and visit me, 99 of them ask about Lake Orumieh, which shows it has become a sensitive issue for them. People follow the lake's fate, how can I stay silent and ignore their demands regarding an issue which shows their interest in the environment?"
Last year Iran's state television, Press TV, said the lake's problems were because "declining rainfall, climate change, and rising temperatures accelerate the evaporation process". were to be blamed.
Environmental experts fear that Lake Orumieh might see the fate of a lake in neighbouring countries, known as Aral Sea, which was formerly one of the four largest lakes in the world but has almost disappeared due to aggressive irrigation projects during the Soviet Union era.
Iranian media were not allowed to report the protests but an official news agency acknowledged that a gathering had taken place on Saturday.

Edited by WhiteSkies, 10 October 2011 - 11:27 AM.

[AliSaleh]

i hope they save it.  its part of Iran and a beutiful lake.

[WhiteSkies]

It seems not many people are interested in this situation..

[iSilurian]

WhiteSkies, on 10 October 2011 - 11:26 AM, said:

Salaam,

I was aware of the situation happening with Lake Orumieh (Azerbaijan, Iran) but I'm interested in the views of others SC, hence why I'm posting this topic . The below article was written on 5th September 2011 (more than a month ago) but I tried the search tool and nothing came up and tbh I can't remember this topic being discussed... In any case if it has already been discussed please provide me with the link and go ahead and delete this post!

http://www.guardian....orumieh-shrinks

drought and government mismanagement?  ah, this is about damming of streams, its nothing new in this region.  People are more concerned about making money in the short run than they are about saving money in the long run.  But its not an easy problem to solve none the less.

Also, people need water, and if the lakes water is where they get their water, then the people will have their way with or without the lakes consent.  Its the same story as that of the Aral sea and the same story as that of the fertile crescent.  People are taking all the water for themselves and ruining the land.  What once was a haven and the home of Adam and Eve is now a desert and everyone tries to turn a blind eye.  Its a complicated subject that involves human rights to water and the true value and expense of water, among other things.

In all honesty, im not so sure this lake will be saved, and on top of that, if you look at the picture in your article, you can see that the lake is a salt lake.  The amount of gypsum creates a problem of more water being needed to refill the lake, and the dryer the lake, the less moisture in the region which leads to environmental changes that further dry out the lake.

[baradar_jackson]

VOA invited a dissident who happened to be a Turk (meaning, an Iranian Azeri), and he gave a brilliant analysis of this situation: Azeris have been the main target of Islamic Republic's state persecution, because Azeris never accept tyranny.

What a great analysis. Thank God the American government is so kind as to provide the Iranian people with such media.

[WhiteSkies]

iSilurian, on 11 October 2011 - 02:01 PM, said:

drought and government mismanagement?  ah, this is about damming of streams, its nothing new in this region.  People are more concerned about making money in the short run than they are about saving money in the long run.  But its not an easy problem to solve none the less.

Also, people need water, and if the lakes water is where they get their water, then the people will have their way with or without the lakes consent.  Its the same story as that of the Aral sea and the same story as that of the fertile crescent.  People are taking all the water for themselves and ruining the land.  What once was a haven and the home of Adam and Eve is now a desert and everyone tries to turn a blind eye.  Its a complicated subject that involves human rights to water and the true value and expense of water, among other things.

In all honesty, im not so sure this lake will be saved, and on top of that, if you look at the picture in your article, you can see that the lake is a salt lake.  The amount of gypsum creates a problem of more water being needed to refill the lake, and the dryer the lake, the less moisture in the region which leads to environmental changes that further dry out the lake.

And that's the scary thing, that it may end up turning like the Aral Sea, thus completely destroying the area in more ways than one (food, climate, health, salt being whipped around etc). Mind you, as populations are rising, (as are lifestyles..) I guess people would be complaining due to lack of water if they didn't dam it..

baradar_jackson, on 11 October 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:

VOA invited a dissident who happened to be a Turk (meaning, an Iranian Azeri), and he gave a brilliant analysis of this situation: Azeris have been the main target of Islamic Republic's state persecution, because Azeris never accept tyranny.

What a great analysis. Thank God the American government* is so kind as to provide the Iranian people with such media.

Right, because that was the main point of this post, thank God that you were here to clear up that situation for us.

*- British Newspaper.

Edited by WhiteSkies, 11 October 2011 - 05:08 PM.

[baradar_jackson]

WhiteSkies, on 11 October 2011 - 05:07 PM, said:

Right, because that was the main point of this post, thank God that you were here to clear up that situation for us.

*- British Newspaper.

VOA is not a British newspaper.

And what I said was relevant because that was the guy they brought to discuss the Lake Orumiyeh issue.

[The Canuck]

Although I'm no expert on Iranian government policies, I think in general in Iran they do not have proper policies and enforcement on environmental issues.  As well as safety issues.  But this is not a blame on the central government, the local people themselves are to blame as well.  They do not put much importance and care into these matters.

Baradar Jackson:  lol the dissident who says that is an idiot, and has his own agenda.  They always try to blame the central government for everything when in reality the local governments are to blame for many of the problems.  They do not have proper safety policies for factories, there's many examples of their incompetences.  This is a difficult problem to remedy in Iran, and I don't blame every person in the governments or municipalities.  But in general, they are not up to standards with the more advanced countries.

And ADAPP is not a voice for Iranian azeris, almost nobody in Iranian azerbaijan even knows who they are.  It's a group based on one guy who has emotional problems and lives in USA.  The two people that speak for them (only 2 people i ever saw) are not even originally from Iran, they are originally from former russian Azerbaijan.  But they have lived in Iran.  Also, when they report they distort actual news, they only report what a few pan turks might have said randomly in the streets, but they don't report what a majority of people say.

Lake Urumieh is an Iranian environmental issue, and awareness should be raised because they have to do more for environmental issues.  I think the problem is not having enough money and resources to dedicate to resolving these problems.

[WhiteSkies]

baradar_jackson, on 11 October 2011 - 05:27 PM, said:

VOA is not a British newspaper.

And what I said was relevant because that was the guy they brought to discuss the Lake Orumiyeh issue.

Didn't read your post properly, I assumed you were referring to the article I posted.

So you're saying that what 'he claims' to be happening, actually isn't?

[hameedeh]

Quote

The lake occupies a 5700 km2 depression in northwestern Iran. Thirteen permanent rivers flow into the lake. Water level in the lake has been decreased 3.5 m in the last decade due to a shortage of precipitation and progressively dry climate.

Shortage of precipitation and progressively dry climate is a natural ecological event. The greenies are trying to imply that the present government has something to do with the drying up of the lake. They try to cast aspersions on the Islamic Republic whenever possible. Don't fall for it.

The quote above is from the Abstract. If the link does not work, look for Hydrogeochemistry of seasonal variation of Urmia Salt Lake, Iran.

http://www.salinesys...g/content/2/1/9

[iSilurian]

Hameedeh, on 12 October 2011 - 02:20 AM, said:

Shortage of precipitation and progressively dry climate is a natural ecological event. The greenies are trying to imply that the present government has something to do with the drying up of the lake. They try to cast aspersions on the Islamic Republic whenever possible. Don't fall for it.

The quote above is from the Abstract. If the link does not work, look for Hydrogeochemistry of seasonal variation of Urmia Salt Lake, Iran.

http://www.salinesys...g/content/2/1/9

The people are damming the tributaries of the lake as well, which plays a major role in the lake drying up and is overseen by the government.

In case you didnt know, the worlds largest lakes dont dry up due to meer droughts.  If they did, they would have all been gone centuries ago.

So please dont say "dont fall for it" unless you know what youre talking about.  In your own link it even says

"The possible causes of rising salinity are likely to be surface flow diversions, groundwater extractions and unsuitable climate condition. About 4.4 million people live in the Urmia Lake basin, whose irrigation economy is strongly dependent on existing surface and groundwater resources in the area [<a href="http://www.salinesys...3/1/5#B25">25]. Accordingly, human population growth in the lake's basin has seriously increased the need for agricultural and potable water in recent years, all of which are supplied from surface and groundwater sources in the area. "

aka theyre damming the tributaries.

Edited by iSilurian, 12 October 2011 - 02:10 PM.

[baradar_jackson]

Mujahid, on 12 October 2011 - 01:25 AM, said:

Although I'm no expert on Iranian government policies, I think in general in Iran they do not have proper policies and enforcement on environmental issues.  As well as safety issues.  But this is not a blame on the central government, the local people themselves are to blame as well.  They do not put much importance and care into these matters.

Baradar Jackson:  lol the dissident who says that is an idiot, and has his own agenda.  They always try to blame the central government for everything when in reality the local governments are to blame for many of the problems.  They do not have proper safety policies for factories, there's many examples of their incompetences.  This is a difficult problem to remedy in Iran, and I don't blame every person in the governments or municipalities.  But in general, they are not up to standards with the more advanced countries.

And ADAPP is not a voice for Iranian azeris, almost nobody in Iranian azerbaijan even knows who they are.  It's a group based on one guy who has emotional problems and lives in USA.  The two people that speak for them (only 2 people i ever saw) are not even originally from Iran, they are originally from former russian Azerbaijan.  But they have lived in Iran.  Also, when they report they distort actual news, they only report what a few pan turks might have said randomly in the streets, but they don't report what a majority of people say.

Lake Urumieh is an Iranian environmental issue, and awareness should be raised because they have to do more for environmental issues.  I think the problem is not having enough money and resources to dedicate to resolving these problems.

Brother forget the local government. When people are standing right in front of  trash bin, and throw their can on the ground, then they don't have the right say anything about any environmental policy.

When shopowners throw their trash in the rain gutter, they have no right to say anything about environmental policy.

This is why plastic bottles will ruin Iran. They're bad already. Combine them with retarded Iranians and you get an ecological disaster.

[hameedeh]

iSilurian, on 12 October 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

aka theyre damming the tributaries.

@iSilurian: When I said don't fall for it, I was not speaking to you, because you already have an anti-Islamic Republic sentiment. I was speaking to those who love Iran and might become worried by outside agitation.

Every country has these type of environmental problems. Acid rain is killing European bodies of water. Why are the western news media so interested in Lake Urmia? Just another western news story trying to convince people that the Islamic government is a failure. (At this point, let me reiterate, Don't fall for it!) When winter comes, the snows will come. Then comes the big melt in the spring. If the government can do something for the environment, I'm sure that they will.

http://doe.ir/Portal/home/default.aspx

[iSilurian]

Hameedeh, on 12 October 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

@iSilurian: When I said don't fall for it, I was not speaking to you, because you already have an anti-Islamic Republic sentiment. I was speaking to those who love Iran and might become worried by outside agitation.

Every country has these type of environmental problems. Acid rain is killing European bodies of water. Why are the western news media so interested in Lake Urmia? Just another western news story trying to convince people that the Islamic government is a failure. (At this point, let me reiterate, Don't fall for it!) When winter comes, the snows will come. Then comes the big melt in the spring. If the government can do something for the environment, I'm sure that they will.

http://doe.ir/Portal/home/default.aspx

Ive taken the shahada twice, dont call me anti islamic.  I have much respect for middle eastern countries as well.  Also, i have a degree in geology and environmental geography.  I read about this stuff all the time and i study it.  Why is the western media so interested in this lake? ive never heard the lake mentioned on any western media, but i have heard this story a million times for other lakes around the world, and i know for a fact that this isnt simply a "drought" that is drying the lake, the people around the lake are playing a major role just as we play a major role in every other lake drying (which is surprisingly common around the world).

I think it is you who is simply paranoid that every american is anti Iran, which simply is not true.  Im just speaking the truth.  And yes youre correct, the world has these same issues, i being american and focusing on american issues probably knows that more than anyone in this forum, but the topic is on this lake in the middle east, so that is what were discussing.

It has nothing to do with Islam, it has nothing to do with Iran or the US.  This is a matter of science, and it is science that i am speaking in favor of.

Educate yourself, then come try to insult me, not the other way around.

Edited by iSilurian, 13 October 2011 - 08:11 PM.

[hameedeh]

Quote

Ive taken the shahada twice, dont call me anti islamic.

Although you've said you are Agnostic/Deist/Atheist, I never said you were anti-Islamic. I said you were anti-Islamic Republic. But I admit I could be wrong about that. Maybe I confused you with another Agnostic/Deist/Atheist.

Quote

Why is the western media so interested in this lake? ive never heard the lake mentioned on any western media

The news story about Lake Orumieh is from The Guardian, a western news media in the UK.

Quote

I think it is you who is simply paranoid that every american is anti Iran,

I am American myself. No, I'm not paranoid that every American is anti-Iran.

Quote

It has nothing to do with Islam, it has nothing to do with Iran or the US.  This is a matter of science, and it is science that i am speaking in favor of.

The research paper that I posted said the lake is drying up due to a shortage of precipitation and progressively dry climate. The news article the OP posted is slanted against the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Look at the words used:

Lake Orumieh...is disappearing due to drought and government mismanagement...government's failure to protect the lake...Protesters blame the gradual drying of the salt lake on the government and its policies...Recent unrest...saw familiar scenes to those witnessed in the aftermath of Iran's post-election protest in 2009...these protests ...inspired by, and a continuation of, the unrest in 2009.

This article is just another attempt to convince people that the Islamic government in Iran is a failure. Pure propaganda.

Quote

Educate yourself, then come try to insult me, not the other way around.

When did I insult you? Did you check out the Department of Environment link in Post #13? BTW, if you don't hate the Islamic Repubic, get yourself to Orumiyeh and teach them how to make your own rain.

Edited by Hameedeh, 14 October 2011 - 01:57 AM.

[iSilurian]

Hameedeh, on 14 October 2011 - 01:56 AM, said:

The news story about Lake Orumieh is from The Guardian, a western news media in the UK.

ah, i practically never read the guardian, but alright. fair enough. moving on.

Hameedeh, on 14 October 2011 - 01:56 AM, said:

The research paper that I posted said the lake is drying up due to a shortage of precipitation and progressively dry climate. The news article the OP posted is slanted against the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Look at the words used:

Well, there is no doubt that sources will be bias, i can agree on that.  Now, you dont have to, but i think in this case you should trust me.  Environmental factors do play a big role in messing up lakes as well as political diplomacy.  But in reality, and you can see this occuring in many regions of the world.  Manking is destroying the resources we use.  Manking by far uses so much water, far more than we can sustain for long.  People rarely talk about it, but it can be seen.  We use water to such high levels, and our population increases with that level.  Eventually when the water runs out, people are going to freak out.  When food runs out, people are going to freak out.  I dont blame just Iran for this event because its happening all over the world as we speak, Iran is not alone and this lake is not alone.Eventually all countries will have to put their differences behind them, to survive.  And im not talking about eventually as in, 2000 years from now.  Im talking eventually with respect to a single generation.

The time to act is now, but people are too busy dealing with other things to recognize what is truly most important.  So what do we do?  thats rhetoric.

Hameedeh, on 14 October 2011 - 01:56 AM, said:

Lake Orumieh...is disappearing due to drought and government mismanagement...government's failure to protect the lake...Protesters blame the gradual drying of the salt lake on the government and its policies...Recent unrest...saw familiar scenes to those witnessed in the aftermath of Iran's post-election protest in 2009...these protests ...inspired by, and a continuation of, the unrest in 2009.

Listen, the government does play a major role, and its not just the government, its the people too.  But who is the government to limit peoples rights to water?  Who is the government to tell families they cant have children or they cant own certain land or they cant take certain water from a lake?  These are fundamental rights for survival, and this is why the government hides from the subject.  They dont know what to do, the government itself in many countries simply cannot handle this issue.  Its just too big. And the people are often just too ignorant.

Hameedeh, on 14 October 2011 - 01:56 AM, said:

This article is just another attempt to convince people that the Islamic government in Iran is a failure. Pure propaganda.

It may be, but really, you have to understand that, the issue is far greater than just propaganda against a country. This is a real situation, and it is really a grave threat.  One lake may not seem too bad, but when you really take time to look into the details, you will find that this is a really big issue.  This issue is truly beyond politics.  And it really doesnt matter what country you stand for or against, this is a situation that we all need to recognize.  We all need to understand whats going on, because with ignorance people ignore issues.  And the longer we ignore them, the worst they will get.

The entire middle east is plagued by these issues.  From Saudi Arabia and its lack of water to the fertile crescent which is now a desert.  Epidemics plague the sahel as we speak.  You or rather us, being in america, we use so many resources, it will be impossible for the world to sustain us for long, unless the world provides for us and only us.  Paleo aquifers are drying up, countries in northern africa depend upon temporary solutions.  Even china struggles to maintain its demand, thankfully they limit the amount of children people can have, but most countries would see that as a human rights crime.  Lakes are drying up around the world, and those that arent being dried up are being heavily contaminated.

This is no longer about politics, this is about survival, and only those who do not recognize the threat, will be the ones who do not capitalize on what little time we have to get on top of the issues.

Hameedeh, on 14 October 2011 - 01:56 AM, said:

When did I insult you? Did you check out the Department of Environment link in Post #13? BTW, if you don't hate the Islamic Repubic, get yourself to Orumiyeh and teach them how to make your own rain.

sorry , i did take offense to that, you gave me the impression that you believed i was commenting on a political basis.  My words are purely scientific, and you should trust me.  Im not here to spread propaganda or fight in the name of any country, im just letting people know whats going on.  Manking is destroying this world, and something must be done about it, or we will all pay the price.

This...is beyond politics.

Edited by iSilurian, 14 October 2011 - 03:55 AM.